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Author Topic: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III  (Read 35386 times)

Turaglas

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #330 on: 06 June 2021, 14:08:13 »
BT's strength is the diversity and depth of it's major and minor factions.  Something I hope Ilclan doesn't strip the franchise of and copy GW in just throwing more chaos everywhere or shunting half the game like AoS.

I don't even like clans but I want a small unit of HH purely for quadvees since tankmechs have been my jam since the original Armored Core games in the 90s.
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Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #331 on: 07 June 2021, 12:16:55 »
Theirs a part of me that says the Hell Horses will always be my enemy. Theirs another part of me that says logically the Hell Horses and Snow Ravens should be my allies due to our unique outlook on unit composition including the use of Battle Armor. Then the part that says ‘Mongol Horde tactics??? Really???  I have ax wielding Berserker’s to show you if you dare’. Then ‘Quad Vee’s?!?! Awesomely weird!’

TLDR: of course the Horses new to stick around!

Turaglas

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #332 on: 07 June 2021, 12:19:55 »
Well, I can't trust the Ravens because they've been ultra quiet with their khan spinning her web around the Houses.

I think the Mongols are overrated from my history shtick but I like tanks enough to want to keep the Horses around. 
"This is why the same true fighting will never employ ornate, showy, or wide patterns, [nor will it include] exaggerated moves which are useful only for the entertainment of spectators."

Tyler Jorgensson

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #333 on: 07 June 2021, 12:44:15 »
Well, I can't trust the Ravens because they've been ultra quiet with their khan spinning her web around the Houses.

But air-dropping Elementals from Aerospace fighters while tanks morph into mechs, all while little fast ProtoMechs run and gun?!

Just ignore that bio-weapon infested, nuked and bombarded from orbit world.... nothing happened there.

Jaim Magnus

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #334 on: 07 June 2021, 13:52:19 »
Just ignore that bio-weapon infested, nuked and bombarded from orbit world.... nothing happened there.

Totally an anomaly. You can trust us  O:-)
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Turaglas

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #335 on: 07 June 2021, 13:56:45 »
I'll trust you when I start trusting Wolves and Capellans.
"This is why the same true fighting will never employ ornate, showy, or wide patterns, [nor will it include] exaggerated moves which are useful only for the entertainment of spectators."

DOC_Agren

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #336 on: 07 June 2021, 19:32:34 »
But air-dropping Elementals from Aerospace fighters while tanks morph into mechs, all while little fast ProtoMechs run and gun?!

You got my interest.  :thumbsup:
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Gin

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #337 on: 12 June 2021, 21:40:56 »
Just ignore that bio-weapon infested, nuked and bombarded from orbit world.... nothing happened there.

...wait, what? Did the horses do that to a world?

Jaim Magnus

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #338 on: 12 June 2021, 22:13:11 »
...wait, what? Did the horses do that to a world?

No, it was the Ravens, during the Jihad.
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Empyrus

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #339 on: 16 June 2021, 14:31:34 »
I take it Hell's Horses haven't come up with anything new for a while, except for the QuadVees?
Looks like the Hel (Loki Mk II) in 3121 is the latest new 'Mech.

Though i guess the Horses have never been an "industrial faction" so to speak, not since the Ghost Bears took Tokasha.

Wonder if we'll see something new Hell's Horses make in Recognition Guides. I do like that bunch of older 'Mechs are put back into production by the Horses though, so no real complaints.
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Jellico

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #340 on: 16 June 2021, 15:56:48 »
You realise CHH scored pretty much every factory in the Wolf OZ (You can argue with the Wolves what that means)? CHH has the industry of two Clans after 3145. Plus Noyan took New Oslo off the Dominion. Plus at least one whole new factory in RecGuides.

Empyrus

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #341 on: 16 June 2021, 16:01:26 »
You realise CHH scored pretty much every factory in the Wolf OZ (You can argue with the Wolves what that means)? CHH has the industry of two Clans after 3145. Plus Noyan took New Oslo off the Dominion. Plus at least one whole new factory in RecGuides.

Sorry, make that "inventor faction".
Yes, nice, the Horses have factories. As i said, i like that they're making sure bunch of classics are staying around.
But i'm guess they ain't got scientists or inventive warriors. (Though not saying that's automatically a good thing, Wolves waste time and resources developing a 'Mech to counter DFAs...)

Then again, i guess invention would result in some silliness like the... ah, good, i don't actually recall the stupid OmniMech's name that has a pulse laser in its arse.
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Jellico

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #342 on: 16 June 2021, 16:51:21 »
It is a question of timing. TRO3050-58 was a great time to be a Falcon or Wolf with a bit extra to the other Invaders. RecGuides is basically TRO3050's Greatest Hits. You aren't the only one missing out. As a Ghost Bear I can say we have only had revisions of old hardware too.
That said expect more next Wave.

Empyrus

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #343 on: 16 June 2021, 17:04:17 »
The Wolves have gotten the Amarok, Stormwolf, Firestorm, Thresher Mk II, Dominator, Crucible, and Sojourner ifcounting WiE because of the impending reunion. And this is on top of bunch of earlier innovations like the Wulfen, War Wolf, Skinwalker, and Tomahawk II.
The Falcons have gotten the Hierofalcon, Ion Sparrow, Jade Phoenix (not yet but we know they get this), and previously they got the Grand Summoner, their series of Totem 'Mechs.
The Snow Ravens got War Crow and Carrion Crow.
I grant that the Ghost Bears haven't gotten anything but they did at least get some stuff previously, like the Kodiak II.

Just feels like the Hell's Horses burned their brain on the QuadVees. Neat stuff certainly. Just ultimately experimental stuff whose future is not guaranteed, and role on the battlefield is perhaps a bit questionable.

Here's hoping that Horses too get something new with RecGuides. Amount doesn't matter, the Wolves got a lot of stuff but i wouldn't really rate anything highly...

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Jellico

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #344 on: 16 June 2021, 17:55:24 »
Contemporary to the Kodiak II.
Buraq
Anat
Hadur
The 4 Quadvees.
Loki Mk2


Again, timing. Click tech focused on Clan Wolf Falcon and Nova Cat. That is a double edged sword because it can get you Ryoken IIs, Mongrels and Gravediggers. But it means a whole game's worth of Mechs and tanks for the Clans involved.

CJC070

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #345 on: 16 June 2021, 20:12:08 »
I take it Hell's Horses haven't come up with anything new for a while, except for the QuadVees?
Looks like the Hel (Loki Mk II) in 3121 is the latest new 'Mech.

Though i guess the Horses have never been an "industrial faction" so to speak, not since the Ghost Bears took Tokasha.

Wonder if we'll see something new Hell's Horses make in Recognition Guides. I do like that bunch of older 'Mechs are put back into production by the Horses though, so no real complaints.

The one problem is they had limited mech and tank infrastructure due to location and not moving much before the Wars of Reaving and losing their Homeworld bases. Remember they had to outsource some of their production through Wolves-in-Exile to stay a float.

Kasaga

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #346 on: 17 June 2021, 18:14:09 »
Can someone please explain to me mongrel doctrine and associated Cluster organization?  I am not getting it or finding it unless it was updated on Sarna in the last month or so.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #347 on: 17 June 2021, 18:20:36 »
Can someone please explain to me mongrel doctrine and associated Cluster organization?  I am not getting it or finding it unless it was updated on Sarna in the last month or so.

Heavy Mechs and light vehicles.

Kasaga

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #348 on: 17 June 2021, 19:27:07 »
Heavy Mechs and light vehicles.

That's it?

Jellico

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #349 on: 17 June 2021, 19:45:04 »
Table top BattleTech is often pretty blunt and mostly about smashing things together.

The hoard of light vehicles swamps the strategic field and forces the opponent to split their forces. The superior numbers provide better awareness and breaks the opponents command cycles. The opponent is then defeated in detail.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #350 on: 17 June 2021, 21:59:30 »
That's it?

I tried writing out an explanation but couldn’t come up with it.

But lighter vees do harassment and artillery. Mechs clean up and act as the anvil.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #351 on: 17 June 2021, 23:50:18 »
Table top BattleTech is often pretty blunt and mostly about smashing things together.

The hoard of light vehicles swamps the strategic field and forces the opponent to split their forces. The superior numbers provide better awareness and breaks the opponents command cycles. The opponent is then defeated in detail.
so basicly how a dirt poor militia unit can beat an invader force
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Maelwys

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #352 on: 18 June 2021, 00:13:50 »
Can someone please explain to me mongrel doctrine and associated Cluster organization?  I am not getting it or finding it unless it was updated on Sarna in the last month or so.

Era Report 3145 (pg. 61) has the details. It mentions the First Horde Cluster consisting of two Trinaries and an attached support Supernova. The light Trinary (Mangudai) is made up of Light Mechs and Vehicles, with very few mediums. This Trinary uses hit and run tactics to draw an enemy out of position and into the arms of the other Trinary (Tulughma), which made up of heavy and assault machines. Not much in the way of details on the support Supernova, other than it contains the Horde's few infantry.

So use lights to harass and string your opponent out, then hit them with the heavy stuff. Its...not exactly ground breaking. But when it seems like you're mostly producing lights and assaults, it sort of makes sense. But the units are tiny. 2 Trinaries and a Supernova compared to the 3 mech/Elmental Trinaries (plus novas) a support  Supernova and a Aerospace Trinary of their traditional cluster layout and its lacking.

Good for a stopgap use of materials while you rebuild, but its seemingly a (forgive the term) one trick pony. Building some new Horde Clusters, convert a few other units over maybe...but the fluff suggests that almost the entire Touman was converted. Hopefully things get put back once things start to kick off...



Maelwys

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #353 on: 18 June 2021, 00:50:04 »
Sorry, make that "inventor faction".
Yes, nice, the Horses have factories. As i said, i like that they're making sure bunch of classics are staying around.
But i'm guess they ain't got scientists or inventive warriors. (Though not saying that's automatically a good thing, Wolves waste time and resources developing a 'Mech to counter DFAs...)

Then again, i guess invention would result in some silliness like the... ah, good, i don't actually recall the stupid OmniMech's name that has a pulse laser in its arse.

I dunno. They invented/managed to create a Clan version of the Machina Domini system (Even if the Wolfy wolf wolf wolf wolves managed to design a better known one than the Horses' Parash variant), they're working on a new phenotype (TankWarrior) and they also developed a new unit type, the QuadVee. They also created the Detachable Weapon Pack during the Jihad. So yeah, sometimes they're pretty much the most inventive Clan out there.

Turaglas

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #354 on: 18 June 2021, 01:49:09 »
I think the quadvee is innovative.  Personally a fan of plain hybrids and not transformers but I can see the value in them when the tracks/wheels blow out.

Now if only we could get more minis of them.  Is this tank phenotype going to be conventional or Quadvee primarily?
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Jellico

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #355 on: 18 June 2021, 04:55:01 »
Era Report 3145 (pg. 61) has the details. It mentions the First Horde Cluster consisting of two Trinaries and an attached support Supernova. The light Trinary (Mangudai) is made up of Light Mechs and Vehicles, with very few mediums. This Trinary uses hit and run tactics to draw an enemy out of position and into the arms of the other Trinary (Tulughma), which made up of heavy and assault machines. Not much in the way of details on the support Supernova, other than it contains the Horde's few infantry.

So use lights to harass and string your opponent out, then hit them with the heavy stuff. Its...not exactly ground breaking. But when it seems like you're mostly producing lights and assaults, it sort of makes sense. But the units are tiny. 2 Trinaries and a Supernova compared to the 3 mech/Elmental Trinaries (plus novas) a support  Supernova and a Aerospace Trinary of their traditional cluster layout and its lacking.

Good for a stopgap use of materials while you rebuild, but its seemingly a (forgive the term) one trick pony. Building some new Horde Clusters, convert a few other units over maybe...but the fluff suggests that almost the entire Touman was converted. Hopefully things get put back once things start to kick off...
In 3132 every one had undersized Clusters.  They have grown/are growing in FM3145.

Empyrus

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #356 on: 18 June 2021, 05:41:44 »
I dunno. They invented/managed to create a Clan version of the Machina Domini system (Even if the Wolfy wolf wolf wolf wolves managed to design a better known one than the Horses' Parash variant), they're working on a new phenotype (TankWarrior) and they also developed a new unit type, the QuadVee. They also created the Detachable Weapon Pack during the Jihad. So yeah, sometimes they're pretty much the most inventive Clan out there.
Evidently i need yet another word, i wasn't thinking about inventive in tech sense but as someone who comes up with new units.

As for these specific inventions...

I figure Machina Domini is ultimately a dead-end system in BattleTech. Doesn't suit alternative cockpit styles or gyros, so it tends to be just plain advantageous and mass-efficient, so it doesn't really impact unit design in interesting way, though i'll acknowledge it is advantageous in-universe. More importantly, BattleTech is pretty hostile to transhumanist concepts (common to a lot of scifi i think) both in-universe and in meta sense, so it seems unlikely Interface system has future. Or if it will be relevant, it will take quite a lot of time to get to that point, nothing that's gonna help Horses now.

TankWarriors seem to be somewhat mediocre thing right now. Per ER3145, they're barely better than normal vehicle crews. Perhaps they'll improve, but i'm skeptical they'll ever become as important as the other Clan phenotypes.
I don't think the concept of naturally better vehicle crews is bad, i just reckon that the Horses' starting from MechWarriors and Elementals for this may have been a slight mistake. Naturally you need a starting point, but perhaps stuff like this needs more radical origins: create completely new Bloodnames, with new stock of DNA. This might also help integrate Spheroids: offer them a chance to join the Warrior Caste. But i understand Clans tendency toward conservatism in stuff like this might make this politically impossible, even if new phenotype is itself innovative.

Detachable weapon pack doesn't seem like a big innovation in general, and... well, it certainly wasn't utilized well at first. Still, i'm not gonna dispute its usefulness, especially for a Battle Armor using Clan.
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Drewbacca

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #357 on: 18 June 2021, 07:57:23 »
Not everything needs to be new or optimized. As long as it is proven and still gets the job done. The Horses have always been about men winning battles, not machines. The quad-vees are new but still "under development", theexhs mechs they are making aren't exactly taxing their production capabilities and are suitable for the job at hand.

Empyrus

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #358 on: 18 June 2021, 08:31:36 »
Didn't say anything about optimized (the Wolf machine's issue is more of a BV calculation issue than the 'Mechs themselves being a problem IMO). Just wish for something new. I do very much agree with people mattering more than machines, and the Horses putting proven machines like the Mad Dog back into production is sensible.

Maybe a quad Omni that isn't as derpy as the Balius...
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Maelwys

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Re: Might Before Metal: Home of Clan Hell's Horses III
« Reply #359 on: 18 June 2021, 08:38:49 »
As for these specific inventions...

Oh, I'm not arguing the efficacy of them, just that for a while there there Horses seemed to be the idea Clan, where as everyone else seems to be just "Yeah, let me make a unit with streak LRMs. So innovative!"

Hopefully with the RecGuide series continuing we'll see some more Horse units come out of it, rather than just "Well, we got this factory..."