Register Register

Author Topic: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?  (Read 779 times)

mikecj

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2854
  • Veteran of Galahad 3028
So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« on: 07 August 2022, 14:18:09 »
So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?

25 living members of each of the 40 founding Wolf Bloodhouses plus the two Kerensky's for 27 House and 675 Bloodnamed Warriors. 

Wolf absorbed Widowmaker and used at least some of their Blood Houses (Connors, Leroux (P), Rhyde (P), Sender (M), Vickers (M) are listed in Warden Clans p 154)
Wolf Clan Sourcebook has: Dubczeck (E), Sanders (M) as well.

This adds 7 BloodHouses to the Council for 34 BloodHouses and potentially 850 Bloodnamed Warriors.

Then Ulric added Kell (which may not continue).

E= Elemental only named member(s)
M= MechWarrior only named member(s)
P= Pilot only named member(s)

Oddities:
Conners (Klondike)= Connors? 
"What forces defend the spawn of Dan Kryla?" p 20 Wolf Clan Sourcebook.  No other named Kryla.
There are no fish in my pond.
"First, one brief announcement. I just want to mention, for those who have asked, that absolutely nothing what so ever happened today in sector 83x9x12. I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm." Susan Ivanova
"Solve a man's problems with violence, help him for a day. Teach a man to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime." - Belkar Bitterleaf
Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

five_corparty

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1169
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #1 on: 07 August 2022, 21:27:37 »
25*40 = 1K, so, plus 7 gives it 1,280 in 3049 when Ulric ordered (as per revival trials) all Bloodhouse back up to full strength?

I'd 100% add a) we don't know for sure how many widow lines were active at any given point and b) a bondsman (say, they capture a Mathus or whatever) KEEPS their Bloodname, so there is probably an always-changing smattering of "orphans" in the Clan Council

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8814
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #2 on: 07 August 2022, 21:36:54 »
Do remember some legacies may have been Reaved over the years. I doubt a Khan can just reverse those trials by fiat, can they?
Sun Tzu Liao: Scheming, opportunistic weasel of a ruler, or brilliant political tactician?
-What's the difference?

five_corparty

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1169
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #3 on: 07 August 2022, 22:38:49 »
Do remember some legacies may have been Reaved over the years. I doubt a Khan can just reverse those trials by fiat, can they?

REAVINGS, no (an ilKhan, MAAAAAYBE?? not sure)  But a lot of Bloodhouses will just cut back on a line or two on their own, let a line that's had a "series of unfortunate events" have some time off for a bit instead of continuing a downwards trend.

As I understand it, the Wolves had no lines reaved in 3048/49 (I could totally be wrong, but I thought they were full-up) and any "deactivated" lines were reactivated by the Khan prior to the invasion.

nova_dew

  • Warrant Officer
  • *
  • Posts: 641
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #4 on: 08 August 2022, 04:19:02 »
REAVINGS, no (an ilKhan, MAAAAAYBE?? not sure)  But a lot of Bloodhouses will just cut back on a line or two on their own, let a line that's had a "series of unfortunate events" have some time off for a bit instead of continuing a downwards trend.

As I understand it, the Wolves had no lines reaved in 3048/49 (I could totally be wrong, but I thought they were full-up) and any "deactivated" lines were reactivated by the Khan prior to the invasion.

A reaved line can be increased by a trial of propagation, though it did need the blessing of the grand council, or the council not to dispute it, at least until the ejection of the six from the homeworlds, after that who knows, vote by the council of six, kept in house by each clan.
A member of Clan Ghost Bears Legal Team

wantec

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3497
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #5 on: 08 August 2022, 07:41:40 »
The Clans: Warriors of Kerenksy has a line on pg 40, saying that during the Invasion the Wolves fielded 1000 bloodnamed warriors. It claimed this was the max allowed for any clan. Now it's not clear if this is a hard-cap, or just a simple 25 bloodheritages times 40 original bloodnames bit of math.
BEN ROME YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD, I READ YOUR BOOK!


Alan Grant

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1747
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #6 on: 08 August 2022, 08:15:43 »
The Clans: Warriors of Kerenksy has a line on pg 40, saying that during the Invasion the Wolves fielded 1000 bloodnamed warriors. It claimed this was the max allowed for any clan. Now it's not clear if this is a hard-cap, or just a simple 25 bloodheritages times 40 original bloodnames bit of math.

This is the correct answer as so far as actual facts provided by the books. But it's also clear that this 1,000 number was deemed unusually large. The books tell us the Wolves activated some inactive bloodheritages prior to Operation Revival with the understanding that whether or not they stayed active beyond that generation would depend on how well their current holders performed. When those warriors died, a number of those bloodheritages went back to inactive status. Ergo we can conclude that this number was higher than what is normal or typical.

I'm speculating the actual number is somewhere between 750 and 950 under more normal conditions.

I think the number probably fluctuates very easily. You have to take into consideration how seamlessly Clan warriors can end up serving other Clans.

For example, the Wolves take a Bloodnamed Jade Falcon warrior as bondsman, then they (perhaps) regain their warrior status and become a Council member of their new Clan.

Also the reverse, a bloodnamed Wolf warrior is taken as bondswoman by the Ghost Bears, effectively removing that person from the Clan Council for the probable remainder of that person's life. The bloodheritage only ends up back in Clan Wolf's control for a new Trial of Bloodright upon that individual's death. This happened to Ghost Bear Khan Nadia Winson, who was born a Wolf.

So the actual number of Council members floats quite a bit.
« Last Edit: 08 August 2022, 09:25:06 by Alan Grant »

mikecj

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2854
  • Veteran of Galahad 3028
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #7 on: 08 August 2022, 09:33:58 »
I did see a Ghost Bear Bloodnamed in the Wolf Clan phonebook and I'm sure the consensus is correct that they're on the Council.  Whether they're granted the rank of Master...

There are no fish in my pond.
"First, one brief announcement. I just want to mention, for those who have asked, that absolutely nothing what so ever happened today in sector 83x9x12. I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm." Susan Ivanova
"Solve a man's problems with violence, help him for a day. Teach a man to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime." - Belkar Bitterleaf
Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

wantec

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3497
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #8 on: 08 August 2022, 13:14:13 »
I did see a Ghost Bear Bloodnamed in the Wolf Clan phonebook and I'm sure the consensus is correct that they're on the Council.  Whether they're granted the rank of Master...
The typical answer is all bloodnamed warriors in the clan on active status (even abtakha) are part of the Clan Council. Now some Clans like the Sharks/Sea Foxes have the "retirement" thing that may muddy things up a bit.
BEN ROME YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD, I READ YOUR BOOK!


mikecj

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2854
  • Veteran of Galahad 3028
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #9 on: 08 August 2022, 16:05:05 »
The typical answer is all bloodnamed warriors in the clan on active status (even abtakha) are part of the Clan Council. Now some Clans like the Sharks/Sea Foxes have the "retirement" thing that may muddy things up a bit.

That makes me wonder if a "retired" Bloodnamed Master Merchant can be taken abtakha?

(As I confidently derail my own thread)
There are no fish in my pond.
"First, one brief announcement. I just want to mention, for those who have asked, that absolutely nothing what so ever happened today in sector 83x9x12. I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm." Susan Ivanova
"Solve a man's problems with violence, help him for a day. Teach a man to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime." - Belkar Bitterleaf
Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

Alan Grant

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1747
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #10 on: 08 August 2022, 16:27:58 »
The Sharks/Foxes have a system that allows warriors to retire. But they also have a system that allows those retirees to come back and serve as warriors again.

The other Clans don't have that. Except for the odd occasion, like the Crusader Wolves after the Refusal War drafting lower caste members into the Warrior Caste. Or some of the nutty stuff that happened in the homeworlds during the Wars of Reaving era.

Those kind of unusual circumstances aside, if a Bloodnamed merchant gets taken as isorla by another Clan. Odds are that person stays a merchant, and now has no mechanism to rejoin the warrior caste. They are treated as a merchant and the fact that they have a bloodname just makes them an oddity among their peers.

I also doubt the Shark/Fox retirees are Clan Council members. At best their ties to their Bloodname House and warrior trothkin might give them greater exposure to current warriors and Clan Council politics. But one of the best retirees-returned-to-duty Sharks we have a detailed story on, Angus Labov, seemed to retire to the merchant caste to get away from the Crusader politics. When he helped rebuild his Clan, it was from the position of Merchant Factor and I very much got the impression that he was working with the Khan and the Clan's leadership, but not from a Council member standpoint. That he was doing everything he was doing from the position of Merchant Factor was what gave rise to the allegation that the merchants were really running the Clan and that the merchants had too much power, and an eventual Trial challenge from a Star Colonel.

He doesn't appear politically front and center until he becomes a warrior again, and the saKhan.

He could have stayed Merchant Factor, there was clearly power in it and work to be done. But it's pretty clear saKhan Barbara Sennet wanted him to return to warrior status (she loaned him the 'mech he used to defeat the Star Colonel), and the Clan Council and Clan leadership. It feels like he couldn't do those things as the Merchant Factor. That implies he was not a member of the Clan Council.
« Last Edit: 08 August 2022, 16:32:44 by Alan Grant »

wantec

  • Freelance Writer
  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3497
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #11 on: 09 August 2022, 09:59:20 »
When a bloodnamed Sea Fox warrior "retires" to the Merchant caste, I don't think the bloodname goes up for trial like if they had died, so that's why I thought the might be able to be on the Clan council.
BEN ROME YOU MAGNIFICENT BASTARD, I READ YOUR BOOK!


mikecj

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2854
  • Veteran of Galahad 3028
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #12 on: 09 August 2022, 10:01:45 »
When a bloodnamed Sea Fox warrior "retires" to the Merchant caste, I don't think the bloodname goes up for trial like if they had died, so that's why I thought the might be able to be on the Clan council.

I agree.  We see Bloodnamed master merchants a few times. 
There are no fish in my pond.
"First, one brief announcement. I just want to mention, for those who have asked, that absolutely nothing what so ever happened today in sector 83x9x12. I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm." Susan Ivanova
"Solve a man's problems with violence, help him for a day. Teach a man to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime." - Belkar Bitterleaf
Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

CVB

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1627
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #13 on: 09 August 2022, 11:10:59 »
They might be relegated to more of a back bencher position in the Council once they retire from warrior status.
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26489
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #14 on: 09 August 2022, 12:10:10 »
This is the correct answer as so far as actual facts provided by the books. But it's also clear that this 1,000 number was deemed unusually large.

Which is not even accurate in that book . . . FASA factchecking for the win.

40 Wolf Founders
3 Special- N Kerensky, A Kerensky, Jen Winson
7 or whatever Widowmaker Bloodnames

Which means theoretically 1250 for full Bloodname count . . . which does not include abathka, John Church the Blood Spirit, or lost Bloodnamed, like Michael Ward who was with the Jaguars as a Galaxy Commander.

A really interesting bit would be to find out WHICH Kerensky some of the famous holders are parts of . . . Was Ulric Andrey?  Natasha Nicky?
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149
Leviathans #104

mikecj

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2854
  • Veteran of Galahad 3028
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #15 on: 09 August 2022, 15:39:45 »


A really interesting bit would be to find out WHICH Kerensky some of the famous holders are parts of . . . Was Ulric Andrey?  Natasha Nicky?

Makes you wonder which side had the famed "Kerensky Vision".
There are no fish in my pond.
"First, one brief announcement. I just want to mention, for those who have asked, that absolutely nothing what so ever happened today in sector 83x9x12. I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm." Susan Ivanova
"Solve a man's problems with violence, help him for a day. Teach a man to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime." - Belkar Bitterleaf
Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

CVB

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1627
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #16 on: 10 August 2022, 09:28:54 »
Reminds me of a quote from a German Chancellor: "If you have visions, you should see a doctor"
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26489
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #17 on: 10 August 2022, 10:17:50 »
Reminds me of a quote from a German Chancellor: "If you have visions, you should see a doctor"

It is not the Nova Cats' vision . . . but rather what we also call a visionary . . . ironically, Vlad could be said to be visionary when he predicted the future to the Clan Council after the Refusal War.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149
Leviathans #104

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11214
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #18 on: 12 August 2022, 11:26:20 »
So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?

25 living members of each of the 40 founding Wolf Bloodhouses plus the two Kerensky's for 27 House and 675 Bloodnamed Warriors. 

Wolf absorbed Widowmaker and used at least some of their Blood Houses (Connors, Leroux (P), Rhyde (P), Sender (M), Vickers (M) are listed in Warden Clans p 154)
Wolf Clan Sourcebook has: Dubczeck (E), Sanders (M) as well.

This adds 7 BloodHouses to the Council for 34 BloodHouses and potentially 850 Bloodnamed Warriors.

Then Ulric added Kell (which may not continue).


Oddities:
Conners (Klondike)= Connors? 
"What forces defend the spawn of Dan Kryla?" p 20 Wolf Clan Sourcebook.  No other named Kryla.

Your math seems off,  your adding the Kerenskys to the wrong #  (27?  No, add to 40 for 43 w/ Jen Winson)

43 Wolf + 40 Widowmaker + 1 Kell  =  84    (The odd names you mention are both Widowmakers & a possible spelling error)
84 * 25 =  Max of 2100 Blood Heritages if you assume "future" use of Kell.

This does not include any single lines they have picked up control of over the years, but, this would likely balance against singles they have lost.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11214
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #19 on: 12 August 2022, 11:30:23 »
The Clans: Warriors of Kerenksy has a line on pg 40, saying that during the Invasion the Wolves fielded 1000 bloodnamed warriors. It claimed this was the max allowed for any clan. Now it's not clear if this is a hard-cap, or just a simple 25 bloodheritages times 40 original bloodnames bit of math.

I always felt that was a typo &/or intended as a max the other clans could field based on the original 40*25 figure.

The Wolves could in theory field 2075 at that time while the Jags "could" have fielded 2000 but its noted they flat out let the Mongoose lines die out.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

mikecj

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 2854
  • Veteran of Galahad 3028
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #20 on: 20 August 2022, 16:00:16 »
The Loremaster stood as Garth took his seat again. "I call for the vote on whether or not Phelan Wolf should be accorded the rights and duties of a Warrior of the Wolf Clan. As he has already been formally adopted into the Warrior caste, it would require two-thirds of the Clan Council to reject him."


460 Aye. 353 Nay. 187 abstention.  For the previously quoted 1,000 members.

Stackpole, Michael. BattleTech: Blood of Kerensky Omnibus (Kindle Locations 7106-7107). Catalyst Game Labs. Kindle Edition.
There are no fish in my pond.
"First, one brief announcement. I just want to mention, for those who have asked, that absolutely nothing what so ever happened today in sector 83x9x12. I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm." Susan Ivanova
"Solve a man's problems with violence, help him for a day. Teach a man to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime." - Belkar Bitterleaf
Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

Colt Ward

  • Lieutenant General
  • *
  • Posts: 26489
  • Gott Mit Uns
    • Merc Periphery Guide- Bakunin
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #21 on: 20 August 2022, 17:20:17 »
Which is a quorum, but might not be all . . . and they have more than 1k possible.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149
Leviathans #104

Hellraiser

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 11214
  • Cry Havoc and Unleash the Gods of Fiat.
Re: So how big is the Wolf Clan Council?
« Reply #22 on: 20 August 2022, 20:32:17 »
1000 is a "typical" base clan, the Wolves have 3 extra legacies from Nick, Andery, & Jen, this doesn't even touch on all the Widowmaker lines.

Stackpole was writing before all these things had been introduced.  He had your basic 40*25 math to go off of but I doubt the entirety of clan history was at his fingertips.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

 

Register