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Author Topic: The Clans and artillery.  (Read 2495 times)

Hellraiser

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #30 on: 28 June 2022, 14:08:47 »
Let's not forget the Falcons use of Artillery in 3058 against Ulric Kerensky.

Or was it LRMs fired indirectly?  Do the Clans view LRM indirect fire the same way as artillery?

LRM's fired indirectly I think. I remember someone saying once there was also arty involved but that was a bit ago.


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The "crime" there was that it was supposed to be a 1v1 honor duel w/ witnesses for the "Circle" & instead they group fired on him with a few hundred LRMs.
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Luciora

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #31 on: 28 June 2022, 17:46:06 »
Sounds like one honor guards worth vs 1 mech.  8)

RifleMech

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #32 on: 28 June 2022, 21:25:26 »
I thought the Clans might have a few Helepolis in their second line forces but the MUL says they're extinct. It makes me wonder why the Clans didn't create their own version.

MarauderCH IIC

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #33 on: 28 June 2022, 22:08:21 »
I saw that Falcon arty post on Facebook and was disappointed by all the comments about the Falcons not using arty ever. What is it? 3050? The Falcons started using arty as an adaptation of tactics that the IS used against them. I posted that the Falcons use the Huey and the Hadur fast support vehicle. I never saw the Hadur until I came across it on the MUL.

But the Falcons have the Flamberge C which is badass!

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #34 on: 29 June 2022, 13:24:30 »
I thought the Clans might have a few Helepolis in their second line forces but the MUL says they're extinct. It makes me wonder why the Clans didn't create their own version.

Isn't VEST (or rather was) producing new upgraded Helepolis on Solaris VII? The TRO 3074 mentioned that in the Variants section.

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #35 on: 29 June 2022, 13:53:35 »
I saw that Falcon arty post on Facebook and was disappointed by all the comments about the Falcons not using arty ever. What is it? 3050? The Falcons started using arty as an adaptation of tactics that the IS used against them. I posted that the Falcons use the Huey and the Hadur fast support vehicle. I never saw the Hadur until I came across it on the MUL.

Pretty sure the fluff was the Hui was the ONLY vehicle the Falcons thought useful until they started using them post-Jihad despite drawing down their mech forces.
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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #36 on: 29 June 2022, 14:21:59 »
I thought the Clans might have a few Helepolis in their second line forces but the MUL says they're extinct. It makes me wonder why the Clans didn't create their own version.

It could be argued that the Bowman essentially is a Clan Helepolis. They're both very similar designs that combine a single artillery piece with sufficient backup weapons to defend themselves at a variety of conventional ranges.
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Jellico

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #37 on: 29 June 2022, 14:23:17 »
So says TRO3060. Though you start getting Falcon vehicles in tertiary roles in the 70s.
But in that era FASA is redefining the Clans. Invading Clans Bears have artillery. Warden Clans has the Loremaster state they don't. Then in the same book there is a Cluster specialising in Hueys. Unhelpful.

RifleMech

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #38 on: 29 June 2022, 17:55:53 »
Isn't VEST (or rather was) producing new upgraded Helepolis on Solaris VII? The TRO 3074 mentioned that in the Variants section.

I believe so but that's an IS group. I would have thought that the Clans would have them.


It could be argued that the Bowman essentially is a Clan Helepolis. They're both very similar designs that combine a single artillery piece with sufficient backup weapons to defend themselves at a variety of conventional ranges.

I suppose but it doesn't have quite the same feel.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #39 on: 03 July 2022, 04:19:16 »
I was just thinking about this, as I have been lurking here and looked some stuff up.


Operation KLONDIKE concluded in 2822, and clan culture had truly begun to develop
2823 Wolverines get written out of existence, cementing the idea of honor and no WMD type things.
The the fully optimized Clan ER PPC was developed in 2826.
Clan Breeding/eugenics took off in 2832
Nicky K died in 2834 and Jerome Winson took over, more or less finalizing the development of clan warfare culture
The clan Arrow 4 was made in 2850, predating the Omni-mech by only 4 years.


While they never made lighter/better versions of other artillery they did make better arrow IVs, so even after their more strict post-KLONDIKE/Wolverine honor, it was worth improving.


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truetanker

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #40 on: 03 July 2022, 15:54:01 »
Unless someone makes a practical joke and loads the LRM's with swarm muniton
They're guided AoE.  If they can't lock onto a target they might harmlessly explode somewhere.

Swarm LRMs were another technology retained by the Clans, who used it to leverage their range advantage and preference for avoiding close range combat to great effect. ~ Sarna ( TechManual, p. 231, "Swarm LRM" )

So yes , they do use Swarm Missiles...

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Colt Ward

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #41 on: 03 July 2022, 16:41:10 »
Swarm LRMs were another technology retained by the Clans, who used it to leverage their range advantage and preference for avoiding close range combat to great effect. ~ Sarna ( TechManual, p. 231, "Swarm LRM" )

So yes , they do use Swarm Missiles...

TT

And the only reason that is there- the only time IIRC we have ever seen a Clan warrior using Swarm- was when Natasha used the munition in her return Trial of Position.
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truetanker

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #42 on: 03 July 2022, 17:45:00 »
I find this kinda funny, sure it's more expensive to field via Kerensky's, but Warrior castes don't pay for it. And we're to assume that Swarm is only used as a deterrent and only in one ToP? I just wonder how many " Accidents " happen that are covered up by the clans?

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Colt Ward

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #43 on: 03 July 2022, 18:17:16 »
So?  Point was it never came up in fiction again.
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #44 on: 03 July 2022, 19:44:10 »

LRMs,  MadDog-Primes & Summoner-A/Bs (LRM model)

The "crime" there was that it was supposed to be a 1v1 honor duel w/ witnesses for the "Circle" & instead they group fired on him with a few hundred LRMs.

That were functioning like Semi-Guided LRMs before Semi-Guides were added to the game, as Vandy's Gladiator B had swapped out the medium laser for a TAG.
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Kojak

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #45 on: 03 July 2022, 20:59:18 »
Probably worth noting that the Clans were the ones to innovate putting Arrow IV on a BattleMech, with the Atlas C 3 in 2842. Prior to that, it had always been mounted on vehicles in the SLDF. So they clearly must have some affinity for artillery.
« Last Edit: 03 July 2022, 21:07:18 by Kojak »


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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #46 on: 04 July 2022, 00:46:08 »
My take on artillery, is, if it is bid, it's fine. Smart use on Mechs and or traditional artillery is recommended. Something the Clans need to improve on ? Or have we learnt enough from 102 years in the den of the Sphere ? ;D
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #47 on: 04 July 2022, 01:09:02 »
At the OP, I doubt the Clans would have a loitering or drone anything.  It fundamentally takes away from the primacy of the warrior caste.  Society drones and loitering munitions?  Sure.  Clans drones and loitering munitions?  No way.

In my headcannon, Clans use Arrow IV two ways.

One is use by dezgra/solahma/freeborn garrison troops in defense of important targets.  These warriors are accorded no/little honor to begin with, so it’s no skin off their or their Clan’s nose if they break out the artillery to blunt a trueborn assault against an important military factory, gene repository, etc.  I imagine this is where Hueys and Bowmen and Chaparrals are used, but these could also be fixed Arrow IV installations or infantry artillery points with Arrow IV.

Two is use by honorable frontline/trueborn troops against dezgra targets.  These targets would typically be Bandit/Dark Caste but would also include Clans/units/etc. marked for Annihilation and the like.  There’s no sense in wasting trueborn lives on what are essentially honorless extermination missions.  So break out the externally mounted Arrow IV for the trueborn omnifighters, the TAG configurations for the trueborn omnimechs and battle armor, and go to town.  Later on, this would also include omnimech V configurations.

None of this explains the Naga, which is a hyper-expensive and wasteful application of omnimech technology in a dedicated role that the Clans disdain.  No idea what to chalk the Naga up to other than early Clan writing whose authors had not thought the issues in this thread through.

Hope this helps.
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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #48 on: 04 July 2022, 02:23:37 »
Naga is cute, like Stalker the Aeroplane ;D, also Eyrie  is cute too, I find mechs with no arms funny
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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #49 on: 04 July 2022, 03:29:30 »
Probably worth noting that the Clans were the ones to innovate putting Arrow IV on a BattleMech, with the Atlas C 3 in 2842. Prior to that, it had always been mounted on vehicles in the SLDF. So they clearly must have some affinity for artillery.

Or the Mechwarriors got jealous -"It is small enough to fit on a 'Mech and only vehicles use it?  Neg!"

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #50 on: 04 July 2022, 04:19:16 »
I agree that the Naga's more a case of basically coming up with an idea but not actually thinking if it fitted with the Clans as a whole.

Its why in the Zhukov setting we changed it considerably, making it a standard 'Mech, slowing it down and basically making it pretty much exclusively used by 2nd line or Solhama forces and that if they are deployed with a Galaxy (with them being more common) they're bid away and only broke out if absoloutely needed or as a counter to enemy artillery.
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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #51 on: 04 July 2022, 04:28:57 »
None of this explains the Naga, which is a hyper-expensive and wasteful application of omnimech technology in a dedicated role that the Clans disdain.  No idea what to chalk the Naga up to other than early Clan writing whose authors had not thought the issues in this thread through.
It was Wolves who came up with the Naga though, and the Wolves have always been basically the most liberal, least honor-bound Clan. Figure the Wolves are perfectly fine pounding enemy flat with artillery if that means most efficient use of available forces. Granted, this does not explain why they made it an OmniMech but given that OmniMechs are better regarded, this may have been an attempt to make artillery acceptable to trueborn. And/or success went to their hats and they wasted some time on extravagance just because.
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Maingunnery

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #52 on: 04 July 2022, 05:26:56 »
None of this explains the Naga, which is a hyper-expensive and wasteful application of omnimech technology in a dedicated role that the Clans disdain.  No idea what to chalk the Naga up to other than early Clan writing whose authors had not thought the issues in this thread through.

Hope this helps.
Their regular artillery are a good threat for motivating the other side to keep to the rules, their older vehicles and mechs can easily perform this function for defensive battles.

Faster Artillery 'Mechs such as the Naga are more suitable for offensive battles as they can reposition themselves fast en travel along with the main force of Omnimechs. The difference between a Naga and a V config is that the warrior with the Naga can't try to force or cheat their way out of the artillery role.
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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #53 on: 04 July 2022, 05:28:02 »
As in one Falcon example already presented in this conversation, we've seen Arrow-IVs get employed by Clan front line troops in the Clan Invasion when fighting something like fortified positions. The Falcons loaded Arrow-IV launchers onto OmniMechs and commenced bombardment.

So think bases, Castle Brians, fortresses, maybe even extensive field works housing vehicles or infantry. Even fortified cities surrounded by walls and turrets.

That's not a Zell appropriate target. You don't send a Timber Wolf to Zell duel a Castle Brian. The Falcons go-to play in 3050 when confronted with such a target was to commence bombardment. Zell isn't appropriate here.

Most Clan Zell Trial setups preclude the use of such assets in combat, but they do exist, both within the Clans, back in the Homeworlds and elsewhere. So on that front alone you have a reason to develop and deploy some Clan Arrow IV assets as far back as the 3050s and prior.

So the feel of it is, the Clans kept it around for fortification busting, bunker busting and the like. The Wolves went to far as to develop a specialized asset in the Naga.

And yes there are also the non-Zell situations where Zell isn't applied for reasons already stated. When you know or suspect Zell will be discarded.
« Last Edit: 04 July 2022, 05:30:02 by Alan Grant »

Jellico

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #54 on: 04 July 2022, 08:27:27 »
I agree that the Naga's more a case of basically coming up with an idea but not actually thinking if it fitted with the Clans as a whole.

Its why in the Zhukov setting we changed it considerably, making it a standard 'Mech, slowing it down and basically making it pretty much exclusively used by 2nd line or Solhama forces and that if they are deployed with a Galaxy (with them being more common) they're bid away and only broke out if absoloutely needed or as a counter to enemy artillery.
The Naga is early enough in the game's history we don't know what anybody was thinking. One of the early traits of the Clans was that they used exotic Star League stuff like Swarm which FASA was trying to push at the time. See those weird TAGs in TRO3050 when the only units that could use them were TRO2750 tanks. I suspect the Clans as envisaged were a lot more likely to use Arrow IVs than the Clans we ended up with.

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #55 on: 12 August 2022, 14:31:30 »
That were functioning like Semi-Guided LRMs before Semi-Guides were added to the game, as Vandy's Gladiator B had swapped out the medium laser for a TAG.

IIRC it was a laser operating on "low power".  That said it wasn't really operating like TAG at all since it was targeting 4 mechs at the same time.  :)
It was a fluffy explanation for the parked Ex "spotting" while they were talking back & forth.

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truetanker

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Re: The Clans and artillery.
« Reply #56 on: 14 August 2022, 16:04:40 »
IIRC it was a laser operating on "low power".  That said it wasn't really operating like TAG at all since it was targeting 4 mechs at the same time.  :)
It was a fluffy explanation for the parked Ex "spotting" while they were talking back & forth.

That's a fancy way of saying " Hold my Beer while I take care of business ".

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