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Author Topic: Towards Elementals...  (Read 565 times)

Natasha Kerensky

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Towards Elementals...
« on: 29 July 2022, 13:00:11 »

Heritable mutation in the LRP5 gene present in some families increases bone density 8x over normal.  Might be a necessary trait for handling Elemental size, muscle mass, and bone stress.  In real world, may lead to treatments for osteoporosis.

Quote
Back in the 1990s, a seemingly ordinary man was involved in a car crash so serious that it should have shattered many of his bones. Yet the radiologist who interpreted his X-ray studies could not find a single fracture. And this wasn’t all. The radiologist also noticed that the patient’s bones were unusually dense – as it turned out, eight times normal density.

The radiologist referred the case to bone specialists at Yale, who performed additional tests on both the patient and some of his family members They quickly discovered that this high bone mass trait could be passed down from parent to offspring. With experience, they learned that they could identify affected individuals at a glance – each exhibited an unusually square jaw.

Two people with high bone mass trait even reported that they had trouble staying afloat while swimming. One of the affected individuals, a physician, had undergone multiple attempted hip replacement surgeries, each of which failed because the man’s bones were so dense that they could not screw the artificial joint into the adjacent bone.

One researcher who studied the bones of multiple affected family members summarized the clinical manifestations of the condition in these terms: “These people have the strongest bones on the planet.”

... At about the same time, a second team based in Omaha was studying a similar family, many of whose members had never fractured a bone and turned out to have equally high bone density. Genetic studies eventually showed that the mutation involved a signaling pathway that regulates normal bone growth and development. The new trait showed that the same pathway also regulates overall bone mass.“

https://theconversation.com/the-strongest-bones-on-the-planet-hold-important-clues-60084

Quote
The LRP5V171 mutation causes high bone density, with a thickened mandible and torus palatinus, by impairing the action of a normal antagonist of the Wnt pathway and thus increasing Wnt signaling. These findings demonstrate the role of altered LRP5 function in high bone mass and point to Dkk as a potential target for the prevention or treatment of osteoporosis.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa013444
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Empyrus

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Re: Towards Elementals...
« Reply #1 on: 29 July 2022, 13:08:23 »
So, what, combine this with the mutation that makes super muscular animals? You know those cattle and dogs? And add that stuff to humans.
...Probably gonna need better hearts as well.
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Sjhernan3060

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Re: Towards Elementals...
« Reply #2 on: 29 July 2022, 13:35:35 »
Heritable mutation in the LRP5 gene present in some families increases bone density 8x over normal.  Might be a necessary trait for handling Elemental size, muscle mass, and bone stress.  In real world, may lead to treatments for osteoporosis.

https://theconversation.com/the-strongest-bones-on-the-planet-hold-important-clues-60084

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/nejmoa013444

That’s really neat and I would think what the horses used as the basis for the phenotype

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Towards Elementals...
« Reply #3 on: 29 July 2022, 13:53:31 »
So, what, combine this with the mutation that makes super muscular animals? You know those cattle and dogs? And add that stuff to humans.
...Probably gonna need better hearts as well.

It’s a naturally occurring, heritable mutation that would get around scaling issues (if any) between size, muscle mass, and bone strength in Elementals.

The MSTN mutation that induces muscle hypertrophy (up to 2x muscle mass) is also present in humans.  Another desirable, heritable trait for Elementals.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myostatin-related_muscle_hypertrophy

It wouldn’t surprise me if the Horses bred these mutations (among others) into their trueborn lines to create the Elemental phenotype.  Maybe sources existed among the original 800 or among the freeborn population.  Or maybe the mutations can be mimicked by turning on/off the associated protein production without changing the underlying genotype, which would be consistent with the term “Elemental phenotype”.

There are a ton of mutations associated with cardiac disease that would presumably be bred out of the trueborn population generally.  No idea on mutations for more durable, efficient, longer-lived cardiac systems.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Empyrus

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Re: Towards Elementals...
« Reply #4 on: 29 July 2022, 14:26:35 »
Or maybe the mutations can be mimicked by turning on/off the associated protein production without changing the underlying genotype, which would be consistent with the term “Elemental phenotype”.
Really wonder just how much tinkering the Clans do. Do they mostly focus on perhaps fixing some issues, like heritable poor eyesight if there's nothing else particularly wrong? Doesn't seem that they artificially improve stuff in principle even though it seems to be within their capabilities.
Considering how quickly some phenotypes seem to be created, some alteration seems to be necessary.

The Elemental phenotype appeared around the same time as the battle armor, and this was just some half a century after the Clan started. 3-4 generations at most probably even of the Clans though perhaps still around the time when non-Warriors were still included in the breeding program. Unless the Horses had perfect candidates for combining features, this seems too quick. Quoting from sarna.net "the Horses had developed their own novel breeding protocols and genetic legacies", that "breeding protocols" part feels like it could involve specific alterations to proteins/DNA/whatever.
Sun Tzu Liao: Scheming, opportunistic weasel of a ruler, or brilliant political tactician?
-What's the difference?

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Towards Elementals...
« Reply #5 on: 29 July 2022, 14:54:18 »
Unless the Horses had perfect candidates for combining features, this seems too quick. Quoting from sarna.net "the Horses had developed their own novel breeding protocols and genetic legacies", that "breeding protocols" part feels like it could involve specific alterations to proteins/DNA/whatever.

It’s all kind of muddy, but my impression is that the Scientist Caste (non-Society) never artificially tinkered with genotypes/DNA except to remove disease.  But once identified among a member or more of the trueborn or freeborn population, the Horses could have bred mutations like LRP5 and MSTN into a new population within a single generation.  And the use of the term “phenotype” indicates to me that the Scientist Caste does tweak gene expression to create trueborns without fiddling with the underlying genotype/DNA.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

 

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