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Author Topic: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs  (Read 2484 times)

Wolf72

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Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« on: 04 July 2020, 12:31:39 »
I see your Huey and dare you to raise a Hind!

TT

[edit: Can some one please slap me! ... no one picked up on my ability to forget to look up the actual SF for VTOLs of different masses.  Sigh, I used 140, should have used 50 ... therefore the design drops down to 12/18, and 24 sprinting -- I think]

Has anyone looked at the Hind/Mil-24?  Nice looking beast (wait! that was in the original "Red Dawn"!)

Armored, Armed, Fast moving! -- Well, I've tried to make one using support Vehicle rules, but even going tech F was a stretch.  The 20/30 movement rate (wikipedia has top speed at 335 kph, or 31 hexes at flank speed) is a support VTOL killer.

Combat Vehicle design it is!

I think of most designs like this as some sort of university level engineering school tasking their students to make something new or 'old is new again': imagine the 'incubators' that these students get to work with and their access to industrial materials and techniques.

HAH, rookie mistake ... carry on.  (will return shortly) -- even worse than I originally thought! had correct math, only needed to put entry in.

TAC Ops Fractional accounting
Code: [Select]
Type Hind X                                         12
Movement Type VTOL
Power Plant 95 Fuel Cell                          3.6
     CRUISE 12 (130 kph) (81 mph)
     FLANK 18 (194 kph) (122 mph)
Heat Sinks 1
Internal Struct 2                                   1.2
Control Equip. 3 Crew                                    .6
Other Equipment Lift                                   1.2
Fuel 666 km
Armor Factor                      40                   2.5
FRONT                               9
RIGHT/LEFT SIDE                     9/9
REAR                               7
TURRET/ROTOR                       4/2           .05

EQUIPMENT Cargo 350 kg                           .35
LMG (turret)                                   .5
        ammo (body)                                       .5
3 RL-10 (front)                                    1.5


TT: that engine is really a killer in the design process. Could not fit an ICE in there at all.  I went through Combat Veh construction, Support C & D, them Tac Ops.   This is as close as I could get.
« Last Edit: 08 July 2020, 18:16:22 by Wolf72 »
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Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #1 on: 04 July 2020, 13:25:13 »
A slight variant:

Magshot GR (chin turret)
Ammo [50]

2 Improved OS SRM-2 (use b/c of variable warheads)
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Daryk

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #2 on: 04 July 2020, 14:50:28 »
RL-10s pretty much always beat OS SRM-2s of any flavor...

Sharpnel

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #3 on: 04 July 2020, 15:55:46 »
RL-10s pretty much always beat OS SRM-2s of any flavor...
What he said. That's the way I roll with VTOLs. They strike quickly and then get the hell out of there.
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Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #4 on: 04 July 2020, 16:45:22 »
bu-but, what if you want infernos to burn down trees an' stuff!

easy switch then.

keep the RL's to 2 or 3 on either version, you are all set.
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Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #5 on: 04 July 2020, 16:48:13 »
Gah!

I GUESS one could put in a vehicle flamer and keep the RLs.

don't know why I have a love affair with the crapiness of the Magshot.
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Red Pins

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #6 on: 04 July 2020, 17:33:03 »
...I made a homebrew tech substitution of 5 SRMs for the 10 LRMs.  Substitute Tandem-Charge or Inferno missiles for standards.  You might take some range off, since the LRMs have range 18 out of 21.  Maybe 1-3, 4-5, 6-7.
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Atarlost

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #7 on: 04 July 2020, 19:07:40 »
To be really authentic it should have a troop bay for 8.  Maybe at the expense of one of the rocket launchers? 

Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #8 on: 04 July 2020, 19:37:43 »
To be really authentic it should have a troop bay for 8.  Maybe at the expense of one of the rocket launchers?

I made a 4.3 ton huey moving 11/17 (close to base wiki stats), same mold as the Hind. Was easier to toss in appropriate armament because it was all Infantry scale.  After 5 tons you have to start using Vehicle/Mech scale.

getting everything is hard.  If you drop a RL (so, go LMG, 2 RL-10s) the .35 and .5  cargo will net you 10 non-anti-mech troops. (10x .085).

We could call this an Omni-vehicle, with a max of .5 tons in chin turret.  That would give it 3.35 tons of space to mission specialize. (remember to use Tac Ops, friends)

I've read someone (in ground combat) saying that an Omni-VTOL just wasn't worth it.  There were points back and forth, but at this very light level I think it would work.  Especially for a local planetary armed forces.  What helps is that it should never be brought out for front line armored combat.

Final (?) Variant:
LMG/Ammo [100]: 1 ton
2 RL-10:               1 ton
Inf. Squad (10):     .85 ton
VGL-chaff:             .5 ton (or some other 1/2 ton equipment ... 2nd LMG?)

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Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #9 on: 04 July 2020, 19:40:35 »
...I made a homebrew tech substitution of 5 SRMs for the 10 LRMs.  Substitute Tandem-Charge or Inferno missiles for standards.  You might take some range off, since the LRMs have range 18 out of 21.  Maybe 1-3, 4-5, 6-7.

I wish they had a cannon version that let you build RLs one rocket at a time, and could fire one at a time -- for bit of longevity, or full strike at once if needed.
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truetanker

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #10 on: 06 July 2020, 09:58:24 »
 :thumbsup:

TT
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idea weenie

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Century Designs
« Reply #11 on: 06 July 2020, 18:44:20 »
I wish they had a cannon version that let you build RLs one rocket at a time, and could fire one at a time -- for bit of longevity, or full strike at once if needed.

Make it where smaller salvos have longer ranges, while larger salvos have more fratricide?  Similar to how the different RL have decreasing ranges based on their size?  But then you'd have to re-cost and re-mass them so they have cost and mass proportional to their salvo size.  One idea might be using Fractional Accounting, and make them a quarter ton per 5 rockets.  This leaves the RL/10 as its current mass, and turns the RL/15 and RL/20 into .75 and 1 ton each.

You then have to go with costs.  LRMs are 30,000 C-Bills for 120 missiles, or 250 per missile.  Rockets are lower capability, so maybe 200 per rocket, plus 25 C-Bills per launch rail.  That would be 225 C-Bills per rocket, or 1125 per 5-pack.  So RL/10 is 2250 C-Bills, RL/15 is 3375 C-Bills, and RL/20 is 4500 C-Bills.

You'd have to add a rule where all rockets fired from a unit are put into a single salvo to determine range and fratricide.  So if you mount 10 RL/10, and fire all of them, it is treated as RL/100 for range adjustment, and after figuring the range adjustment you'd remove a number of rockets proportional to the 100 rockets fired.  Personally I'd like to use (salvo size)2, times a multiplier (i.e. 1%), fractions rounded down

Assuming the multiplier is 1%, that means if you fire the equivalent of RL/100, you multiply 100 times 100 giving you 10,000.  You multiply 10,000 by 1%, giving you 100.  So the entire salvo essentially self-fratricides during launch (wasting 22,500 C-Bills and 5 tons).  A RL/10 will only lose 1 rocket due to self-fratricide, RL/15 will lose 2, while RL/20 will lose 4.

This makes them into a very cheap weapon and better used on 'technical' vehicles.  Technicals have fewer launchers, so the rate of fratricide is lower.  Given the cheap cost of RL, they can be spammed easily, but their lower accuracy should result in fewer hits.
« Last Edit: 07 July 2020, 22:03:45 by idea weenie »

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #12 on: 06 July 2020, 23:52:00 »
Wait, isn't there an equivalent to sprinting for vehicles, where you move double your cruise?  That would allow you to do 16/24 or 17/26 movement instead, dropping the engine size.
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Red Pins

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #13 on: 07 July 2020, 01:03:16 »
Hmm.  Supercharger?  I can't remember if it was fusion or ICE.
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Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #14 on: 07 July 2020, 06:40:39 »
Wait, isn't there an equivalent to sprinting for vehicles, where you move double your cruise?  That would allow you to do 16/24 or 17/26 movement instead, dropping the engine size.

That'd help out.  Able to mount a solid cargo/infantry compartment and more light weapons (never going to be a frontline gunship at 12 tons)
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truetanker

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #15 on: 07 July 2020, 09:25:45 »
VTOL boosters...

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Sartris

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #16 on: 07 July 2020, 10:49:56 »
Wait, isn't there an equivalent to sprinting for vehicles, where you move double your cruise?  That would allow you to do 16/24 or 17/26 movement instead, dropping the engine size.

Quote from: TO Adv Rules pg 23
Overdrive: A vehicle can attempt Overdrive speed, which is identical to the rules for Sprinting for a ’Mech (see Sprinting, p. 16). All those rules apply, except a failed Driving Skill Roll results in an automatic roll on the Failed Maneuver Table (see p. 24), applying +2 to the die roll result, with the controlling player randomly determining, if necessary, the direction of the hexside change. If a player is combining Gunning It (see p. 22) with Overdrive, the player must make two Driving Skill Roll modifiers to avoid rolling on the Failed Maneuver Table.

Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #17 on: 07 July 2020, 11:30:28 »
totally worth it, if simply for the spectacular death scene!
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HABeas2

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #18 on: 07 July 2020, 11:50:00 »
Hi,

Apropos of nothing, I did sketch one out for...reasons...in my old XTR 1945 folder. I tended to base these as closely to the real-world stats as I could manage.

<<<Start Page; Insert USA Flag in border>>>
Mil Mi-24 Hind

Classification: Attack Helicopter
Primary Manufacturer: Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant (Soviet Union)
Production Run: 1969-2030
Number Produced: 3,000+
Weapon Analysis:
   1x YakB 12.7mm 4-Barrel Gatling Machine Gun
   2x GsH30K 30mm Fighter Cannons
   2x UB-32 32-tube Light Rocket Launchers

Overview
“Something that looks like a TIE fighter leftover from Star Wars…” -Blake Clark


Code: [Select]
Type: Mil Mi-24P Hind
Movement Type: VTOL (Medium)
Equipment Rating: B/X-X-X/D
Mass: 26.5 tons

Equipment Mass
Chassis: 8.62
Engine/Controls: 2x2,200hp 11.26
Type ICE
Cruise MP: 9
Flank MP: 13
Fuel: 450km 0.41
Armor Factor (BAR 4): 31 max 1.55
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 3 8
R/L Side: 3/3 7/7
Rear: 3 7
Rotor: 3 2

Weapons and Ammo Loc Slots Mass
2 30mm Fighter Cannons Nose 2 200kg
12.7mm Minigun Nose 1 40kg
2 32-tube L. Rocket Launchers Nose 2 640kg
Quad-Bomb Hardpoint Left 1 800kg
Quad-Bomb Hardpoint Right 1 800kg
Ammo (30mm) 750 Body 1 750kg
Ammo (12.7mm Mini) 1,470 Body 0 588kg
Ammo (L. Rocket) 64 Body 0 120kg

Crew: 3
Cargo: 722 kg

Notes: Features the following Design Quirks: Obsolete/2050.
<<<Insert Mi-24 Hind Image>>>

Forgive the bad formatting. I don't post construction stats very often.

- Herb
« Last Edit: 07 July 2020, 13:58:56 by HABeas2 »

Daryk

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #19 on: 07 July 2020, 12:11:24 »
All you need are code tags, Herb... Select the text you want, and click the button on the first row of formatting above the text box with the "#" symbol...  :)

HABeas2

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #20 on: 07 July 2020, 13:59:33 »
Still took a bit, as the tabs didn't line up much better, but at least it's much more readable now. Thanks!

- Herb

Daryk

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #21 on: 07 July 2020, 14:14:43 »
You're very welcome!  And for everyone else out there, know that Solaris Skunk Werks and Solaris Armor Works work without having to mess with the tab stops...  :thumbsup:

Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #22 on: 07 July 2020, 14:38:27 »
So why did you go up to 26.xx tons?

(or was I supposed to double the wiki data, thought they would have given it in metric tons ... to be honest I didn't even look at the other stats to see if they were in US customary or Metric.)
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HABeas2

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #23 on: 07 July 2020, 16:13:15 »
So why did you go up to 26.xx tons?

(or was I supposed to double the wiki data, thought they would have given it in metric tons ... to be honest I didn't even look at the other stats to see if they were in US customary or Metric.)

No, Wiki gives the metric values as well. I had to double check, but it looks like I definitely cheated by taking the weight in US pounds and translating it to BT tonnage at a rate of 1,000 US lbs to 1 metric ton. ("Oh, reality? What's that?") This was mainly done, by the look of it, to get the slot space to work out, I imagine.

So, yeah; sometimes I just had to cheat to get a desired effect, and the Hind got the cheating treatment.

(Double-checking again, I found that changing it to the actual mass was going to leave me at less than 1 ton for weapons and gear to boot, which was just unacceptable. Building that thing forced me to make a lot of mental gymnastics, it seems, and in the end I compromised a LOT to get something that looked and felt like what a Hind should be.)

- Herb
« Last Edit: 07 July 2020, 16:18:12 by HABeas2 »

Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #24 on: 07 July 2020, 17:23:25 »
+1 added to 'mental gymnastics' ... and slot space ... and getting what you want!

When I get some time I might drop the speed so that a double 'cruise' for sprint is around the 30-32 hex mark.  I don't know if it will change the tonnage available though as I was thinking of using an ICE.

UGH ... will even try support veh style again.  a movement factor 260 (4+ 16x16) should be a lot lighter than 404 (4+ 20x20).  and I still have my note book right here! (with the actual notes and cross offs).

(hmm at 12 tons that's 6 slots for SV, 7 for combat no real biggie ... I say now, -- just up size of RLs)
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Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #25 on: 07 July 2020, 19:58:22 »
Either go slower or heavier, probably both.  OR a combat vehicle version ... Basically, suspension factor blows tech levels out of the water air.

I went with the 16/24 move.  Tried a couple with 15/22 and no great change (more tonnage at Tech F, but that's going for 'broke')

[edit: Right, the total tonnage was not supposed to go over 12t, as you can see math was against me]

Code: [Select]
Tech level Chassis ICE Batt. FC T-ICE T-BATT T-FC
B 3.9 23.4 x x 27.3 x x
C 3.45 15.6 11.7 9.36 19.05 15.15 12.81
D 3.00 11.7 9.36 7.8 14.7 12.36 10.8
E 2.55 10.14 7.8 7.02 12.69 10.35 9.57
F 1.98 7.8 6.24 5.46 9.78 8.22 7.44

(I hope the chart works on the first try, all was separated by tabs): T-FC should be over more, not putzing with it now.
T is for total chassis and engine (ICE, then Battery, then Fuel Cell)

Using tech level F, with a Fuel cell gave a total of 7.44 tons.  That's 4.56 left for fuel and armor (maybe a ton total for both) ... and therefore 3.5 for some advanced weapons, but no cargo or maybe 1.5 tons.
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truetanker

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #26 on: 08 July 2020, 11:38:34 »
What about assigning half ton of Lt. FF for armor? It'll give a slight more protection to help covering it.

TT
Khan, Clan Iron Dolphin
Azeroth Pocketverse
That is, if true tanker doesn't beat me to it. He makes truly evil units.Col.Hengist on 31 May 2013
TT, we know you are the master of nasty  O0 ~ Fletch on 22 June 2013
If I'm attacking you, conventional wisom says to bring 3x your force.  I want extra insurance, so I'll bring 4 for every 1 of what you have :D ~ Tai Dai Cultist on 21 April 2016
Me: Would you rather fight my Epithymía Thanátou from the Whispers of Blake?
Nav_Alpha: That THING... that is horrid
~ Nav_Alpha on 10 October 2016

HABeas2

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #27 on: 08 July 2020, 13:22:41 »
What about assigning half ton of Lt. FF for armor? It'll give a slight more protection to help covering it.

TT

Not at the Hind's Tech level!

- Herb

Wolf72

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #28 on: 08 July 2020, 13:25:26 »
The 12t combat veh version would gain a whole 2 points.

On any support veh it would overwhelm any slots available, or come very close to it.
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Daryk

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Re: Be-"Hind" you ... 20th-21st Centurty Designs
« Reply #29 on: 08 July 2020, 13:32:28 »
At the Hind's tech level, you're pretty much looking at BAR 2...

 

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