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Author Topic: How to lose friends and destroy relationships  (Read 2315 times)

CVB

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #30 on: 05 December 2021, 01:46:22 »
Fully agree. Just an example how rules writing benefits from using simple sentences,   even at the cost of literary elegance.  :)
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #31 on: 05 December 2021, 08:45:34 »
I think your math might be off.   Doesn't BT have a rule of you round at every stage w/ minimum 1 damage?
There's an example in the charging rules with a Jaegermech at 65 tons.  They round at the end, which seems to be consistent with the text for rounding in the charging rules.   I don't see a general rule for rounding in the beginning of TW.
The other thing w/ the swarm is actually a Per turn over turn issue of stopping a mech from moving.   
Ah, I hadn't appreciated this.  It makes jump more valuable.

Hellraiser

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #32 on: 05 December 2021, 12:26:47 »
There's an example in the charging rules with a Jaegermech at 65 tons.  They round at the end, which seems to be consistent with the text for rounding in the charging rules.   I don't see a general rule for rounding in the beginning of TW.
Maybe its just construction then but I swear I just read something the other day that rounding occurs at every stage.

This also then would mean that punching in a 55 ton mech doesn't do 12 damage w/ TSM on, but I'm sure its always been ruled that way.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

assaultdoor

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #33 on: 05 December 2021, 13:49:59 »
Quote
(or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit, within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit).

Wouldn't a VTOL be a non-aerospace airborne unit? In that case, I can only assume that being in the same hex as a `Mech and being at roughly cockpit height would count as being within 3 hexes and elevations. Am I missing something here?

Charistoph

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #34 on: 05 December 2021, 14:54:28 »
The mech is fine, it watches the fireworks but suffers no damage................. unless you actually LAND at its feet, hence the Woods & Water which would stop a V-Tol from landing.
So it sounds like those "head shots" were against the rules & should have have happened in the game.

Exceptions preceded by the "or" are important, as Assaultdoor just mentioned.  A Mech is 2 levels tall and a VTOL being 1 level above elevation, the VTOL is within 3 elevation of said Mech, as it is on its elevation.

Of course, that could be an interesting conundrum.  Should the Punch Table take full damage and the Kick table half damage?  Of course, then if a Hover did the same, the full damage should be against the legs, and half damage to the torso...

I didn't play it that way, I only consider the Mech taking one set of damage instead of two.  It would make Artillery FAR more dangerous to Mechs if they had to take 2 hits from Artillery, depending on the relationship to the Mech and the hit hex.  Taking a Long Tom in your hex would me that your legs take 20 damage the torso takes 10 damage!
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
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They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

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Hellraiser

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #35 on: 05 December 2021, 15:35:14 »
Wouldn't a VTOL be a non-aerospace airborne unit? In that case, I can only assume that being in the same hex as a `Mech and being at roughly cockpit height would count as being within 3 hexes and elevations. Am I missing something here?


Exceptions preceded by the "or" are important, as Assaultdoor just mentioned.  A Mech is 2 levels tall and a VTOL being 1 level above elevation, the VTOL is within 3 elevation of said Mech, as it is on its elevation.

Of course, that could be an interesting conundrum.  Should the Punch Table take full damage and the Kick table half damage?  Of course, then if a Hover did the same, the full damage should be against the legs, and half damage to the torso...

I didn't play it that way, I only consider the Mech taking one set of damage instead of two.  It would make Artillery FAR more dangerous to Mechs if they had to take 2 hits from Artillery, depending on the relationship to the Mech and the hit hex.  Taking a Long Tom in your hex would me that your legs take 20 damage the torso takes 10 damage! 


Yes, your missing something.........  the description is telling you what the TARGET can be.

Okay lets break this down.

Point-1..
"Airborne units that employ a Booby Trap inflict no damage to other units unless" .............

Stop there, airborne bombs don't do damage to other units.  Period. 

Then it moves on to exceptions to that.

Point-2..

"another airborne unit is in the same hex on the Low Altitude map"

So right here you take no damage, UNLESS, your on the Low Altitude map in the same hex as the bomber.

It's telling us that an explosion "in the air" only damages other things "in the air".


Point-3..
"(or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit, within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit)."

Now we get to the "Ground Map" portion.   

"Non-Aerospace Airborne Unit"........   So Non-Aerospace units that can also go airborne...........This is talking about Vtols & WIGEs & LAMs when they are not landed/standing on ground-1 elevation.

Here, on the normal BT/Ground Map, you actually track Hex Distance & Elevation, unlike on the Low Altitude Map where you MUST be in the same hex.  (See Point-1)

The Explosion in mid air, can ONLY damage a unit that is both AIRBORNE and within THREE hexes or elevation levels of the explosion.

Mechs are NOT AIRBORNE.  They are on the ground at Elevation-0,  it doesn't matter that a tank is 1 level or a mech is 2 levels tall.  Its ON elevation-0 as a Ground Unit.

It is Neither an Aerospace Unit, Nor, is it a Ground Unit that has gone Airborne the way a VTOL, WIGE, or LAM can do.


This is what was pointed out several posts above originally that an airborne bomb can't actually hurt ground units UNLESS it lands on the ground & is no longer "airborne"



3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Charistoph

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #36 on: 05 December 2021, 15:59:33 »
I'm sorry , but this "(or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit...", is not reading as the target to me, but the user of the booby trap.

VTOLs being non-aerospace, yet airborne, fall in the second category, not the first. 

It also makes more sense because there is no logical reason why a fusion bomb going off in front of your face won't hurt you just because you're on the ground, and the bomb is between 5 and 13 meters off the ground, when the explosion affects all air traffic 18 meters above AND below it..
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #37 on: 05 December 2021, 16:53:00 »
I'm sorry , but this "(or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit...", is not reading as the target to me, but the user of the booby trap.
The rest of the quote seems to indicate otherwise?
Quote from: Booby Trap
a non-aerospace airborne unit, within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit
The VTOL/WIGE/LAM is near to the exploding unit, not the exploding unit.

It also makes more sense because there is no logical reason why a fusion bomb going off in front of your face won't hurt you just because you're on the ground, and the bomb is between 5 and 13 meters off the ground, when the explosion affects all air traffic 18 meters above AND below it..
Agreed here---the rules don't make much sense physically.  Of course, that's not the first time.

assaultdoor

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #38 on: 05 December 2021, 17:24:26 »
That whole paragraph has some problems, but "In such an event, the other airborne unit must make a Control Roll/Piloting Skill Roll when the Booby Trap explodes. If this roll fails, the other airborne unit suffers damage equal to one-quarter of the exploding unit’s Engine Rating" makes it pretty clear that only airborne units can take damage in this case. I've asked a question about this in the TO rules forum: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/tactical-operations/booby-traps-and-vtols

CVB

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #39 on: 05 December 2021, 17:29:10 »
Right. I think the rules intend to mean what Lagrange, assaultdoor and and Hellraiser read in them (with the caveat that they never actually say that the target has to be airborne, only "a" unit, see my post above today at 07:46:22), but Charistoph is right that these rules are nonsensical, especially since they then go on to say that "If an atmosphere is present and the underlying terrain is not water, the hex occupied by an exploding Booby Trapped unit is filled with fire after the unit’s destruction." So the damage from an airborne booby trap carefully curves around a groundbound target without a scratch but impacts the ground in a 15m radius around it to fill it with flames....
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Charistoph

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #40 on: 05 December 2021, 18:04:57 »
The rest of the quote seems to indicate otherwise?The VTOL/WIGE/LAM is near to the exploding unit, not the exploding unit.

The comma is important.  It reads to me as being an aside (albeit an important aside) that provides a change of subject for this latter point.

What is the reasoning to be mentioning a non-aerospace unit at this point if it is talking about a unit taking the damage instead of the unit causing the damage?  The rules already mentioned it only affecting airborne units in the hex, so it would be redundant to restate it only hitting airborne units again.

If it was only to be hitting airborne units on the Ground map, the aside would be to specifically mention when the airborne unit is NOT using an Altitude Map, but using the Ground Maps instead.  Instead, it mentions units that are not using an Altitude Map at all, like WIGE's and VTOLs.

Edit: Maybe this portion of the discussion should be sent up to Rules Questions and/or Errata for clarification.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

Hellraiser

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #41 on: 06 December 2021, 00:20:26 »
It doesn't have to spell out "ground map" because the only thing allowed on the "Low Altitude" map are AEROSPACE units.   (At least I think that is the case)

VTOLs, LAMs, & WIGEs are all NOT AEROSPACE units.

They are GROUND units that can go AIRBORNE.

This is not the first time this clarification of Aerospace v/s Airborne has come up on these boards & has been clarified in the past in regards to shooting Artillery from an Aerospace/Airborne unit.

YJ-Arrow = Yep while flying.
Fortress Dropship = Nope, only while Grounded.


I'll admit I had to read the sentence a few times to make sure I understood what it was saying but once I followed the wording, its pretty clear to me.

Its telling you that the Bomber & Target MUST be in the Same Hex IF on the Low Altitude Map.
OR,
If NOT, on the low altitude map,
Then,
The target must be an Airborne Unit w/in 3 hexes/Elevations of the Bomber.



As for that bit about setting the hex on fire but missing/not hurting a mech.
Arrow Inferno does the same thing in essence & the mech WOULD suffer heat effects from being in a hex that is on fire.

Its basically saying the entire hex is hit by an AE-Heat weapon that sets it on fire, regardless of what else is in the hex.
IF something else was down below it, then, that thing, mech/vee/infantry, will have to deal w/ being in a burning hex on their turn.

3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

CVB

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #42 on: 06 December 2021, 01:00:38 »
As for that bit about setting the hex on fire but missing/not hurting a mech.
Arrow Inferno does the same thing in essence & the mech WOULD suffer heat effects from being in a hex that is on fire.

Its basically saying the entire hex is hit by an AE-Heat weapon that sets it on fire, regardless of what else is in the hex.
IF something else was down below it, then, that thing, mech/vee/infantry, will have to deal w/ being in a burning hex on their turn.

Sorry, but what it actually says is that the the booby trap changes its character depending on the attacker or defender being in contact with the ground or not. Let's take a booby trapped VTOL as attacker and another VTOL as target.

Scenario 1:
The target is on the ground at lvl0, the attacker lands next to it and detonates the trap. Result: full damage.

Scenario 2:
Target hovers at lvl1, attacker at lvl2. Result: 1/4 damage

Scenario 3:
Take Scenario2, but now the attacker waits a turn and, after both attacker target sink by 6 meters, detonates the trap in the next turn.
Target at lvl0, attacker at lvl1. Result: no damage at all, because suddenly the booby trap has changed to a "AE-Heat weapon that sets [the whole hex] on fire".

Is that logical?

PS. The rules seem to be silent on the scenario of having the booby trap on the ground and the target airborne a level above.


"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Charistoph

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #43 on: 06 December 2021, 01:50:08 »
It doesn't have to spell out "ground map" because the only thing allowed on the "Low Altitude" map are AEROSPACE units.   (At least I think that is the case)

VTOLs, LAMs, & WIGEs are all NOT AEROSPACE units.

They are GROUND units that can go AIRBORNE.

This is not the first time this clarification of Aerospace v/s Airborne has come up on these boards & has been clarified in the past in regards to shooting Artillery from an Aerospace/Airborne unit.

YJ-Arrow = Yep while flying.
Fortress Dropship = Nope, only while Grounded.


I'll admit I had to read the sentence a few times to make sure I understood what it was saying but once I followed the wording, its pretty clear to me.

Its telling you that the Bomber & Target MUST be in the Same Hex IF on the Low Altitude Map.
OR,
If NOT, on the low altitude map,
Then,
The target must be an Airborne Unit w/in 3 hexes/Elevations of the Bomber.

But your point just adds to my point instead of disproving it.  It MUST be talking about the it being a VTOL/WIGE/LAM being the explosive one, NOT the one hit by the explosive.  It literally cannot work any other way.  The punctuation creates separations that are key.  If it was talking about being on the Ground Map, it would just say, "(or if on the ground map, within 3 Levels)".

An aerospace unit in the Low Altitude Map cannot be in the same hex as a VTOL/WIGE/LAM, so therefore the subject must be changing from the aerospace unit with a Trap to a VTOL/WIGE/LAM with a Trap.

The alternative is to just go with the Ground Rules for VTOL/WIGE/LAM, and elevation just doesn't matter or it burns off like Artillery Damage, 10 points per Level till you run out.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

DOC_Agren

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #44 on: 07 December 2021, 17:14:28 »
The Savannah Master Swarm as a viable tactic however no one wants to be at the table with.
I can honestly say that in 35 years of playing this game I've never used more than 3 S.Masters in a game & that 3 was mostly filling out BV & for actual recon of the area.
The idea of bringing in 20 just to abuse the imbalance of the charge rules just screams ban them.
So I can see where some GM might have some PTSD from years ago & saying NO to people even attempting it, lol.
I have had 2 player I play with use the SM swarm...  Both of them used for lack of a better word "Herding" enemies to killing fields and if loosing harassing the other side retreat with victory goals.
It was amazing to watch one of them loose the defensive battle they had to fight, but then win when the pirates instead of being able to retreat quick and easy to their LZ had to slow down and avoid the SMs that were still nipping at their heels by using cover that the SM could not easy move into and get flanked by his mechs before the LZ and this time the battle was fought on his terms.


"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

 

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