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Author Topic: How to lose friends and destroy relationships  (Read 2370 times)

Charistoph

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  • Posts: 1931
How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« on: 20 November 2021, 15:50:03 »
So last night I tried a new piece of equipment on a couple builds.  It was nasty enough, I'm putting it on a personal ban list.  I used it on two platforms of two different motive types, and let's just say, it allowed me to control the board in a way that was just too brutal to be considered fun.

Code: [Select]
Isatrep Hover 2

Mass: 20 tons
Movement Type: Hover
Power Plant: 295 XXL
Cruising Speed: 205.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 313.2 kph
Armor: Reflective
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-E
Cost: 11,419,333 C-bills

Type: Isatrep
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: Hover
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 326

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    2
Engine                        295 XXL                 9
Cruising MP: 19
Flank MP: 29
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     2.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor (Reflective)     64                      4

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         20   
     R/L Side               2/2      16/16   
     Rear                    2         12   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
Booby Trap              Body        2.0     

One platform destroyed an Atlas, the other severely maimed a Battlemaster that was in the woods and carried Hardened armor on its torso.  A sniping Malice took it out on the next turn (it was a 3 player match).

Code: [Select]
Isatrep VTOL 2

Mass: 20 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 305 XXL
Cruising Speed: 216 kph
Maximum Speed: 324 kph
Armor: Reflective
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-E
Cost: 14,055,556 C-bills

Type: Isatrep
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 277

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    2
Engine                        305 XXL                10
Cruising MP: 20
Flank MP: 30
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     2.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor (Reflective)     48                      3

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         15   
     R/L Side               2/2      11/11   
     Rear                    2         9     
     Rotor                   2         2     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
Booby Trap              Body        2.0     

After seeing what the Hovers did, these caused the other player to remain cagey, and only him winning Initiative kept me from using them on his Malice long enough for it to get a kill and "NOPE!" out.  The Malice's Lancemates jumped in to deep water and stayed their for the rest of the game.

They worked about as well as hoped, but a little TOO well.  As in the title, I think I will not be using these again unless I think someone needs to be brought down a peg.
« Last Edit: 26 November 2021, 13:57:30 by Charistoph »
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #1 on: 20 November 2021, 16:11:54 »
Booby traps do look pretty brutal.  You could tone them down a bit by:
(a) using cost (those engines are spendy!)
(b) using the ASF RAM rules for crewed units (a 3-in-36 chance of agreeing with suicide).
(c) noting that drones are shut down by ECM.

acksed

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  • Posts: 286
Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #2 on: 20 November 2021, 20:35:09 »
Ooh, nasty.

...I have thought about this before. Here's a budget version:
Code: [Select]
Sportsman Loitering Munitions

Mass: 5 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 25 ICE
Cruising Speed: 162 kph
Maximum Speed: 248.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 183,264 C-bills

Type: Sportsman
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 59

Equipment                                Mass
Internal Structure                       0.5
Engine                        25 ICE     1
Cruising MP: 15
Flank MP: 23
Heat Sinks:                   0          0
Control Equipment:                       0.5
Lift Equipment:                          0.5
Power Amplifier:                         0.0
Armor Factor                  16         1

                          Internal   Armor
                          Structure  Value
     Front                   1         6
     R/L Side               1/1       3/3
     Rear                    1         2
     Rotor                   1         2


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage
Booby Trap                 Body        0.5
Drone Operating System     Body        1.0
My Fic: [BattleTech] Not Invented Here - Technological progress is hard when you're all alone in the night... so why not send for help?

Red Pins

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #3 on: 20 November 2021, 21:07:03 »
Wait, what?  These resemble a couple of the drones I’m designing for a project.  What was so devastating about them?  Ram attacks or the booby trap?

I designed a 10/15 vehicle with a 7 ton bomb, for instance, is it overpowered?
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Charistoph

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  • Posts: 1931
Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #4 on: 20 November 2021, 21:36:17 »
Ooh, nasty.

...I have thought about this before. Here's a budget version:
Code: [Select]
Sportsman Loitering Munitions

Mass: 5 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 25 ICE
Cruising Speed: 162 kph
Maximum Speed: 248.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 183,264 C-bills

Type: Sportsman
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 59

Equipment                                Mass
Internal Structure                       0.5
Engine                        25 ICE     1
Cruising MP: 15
Flank MP: 23
Heat Sinks:                   0          0
Control Equipment:                       0.5
Lift Equipment:                          0.5
Power Amplifier:                         0.0
Armor Factor                  16         1

                          Internal   Armor
                          Structure  Value
     Front                   1         6
     R/L Side               1/1       3/3
     Rear                    1         2
     Rotor                   1         2


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage
Booby Trap                 Body        0.5
Drone Operating System     Body        1.0

VERY budget.  It has less than a 1/10th of the striking power of the ones above.  The Booby Trap's main power is the rating of its Engine (if it has one).  A 25 Engine is barely an HGR.

Still, playing with BV, can allow for a LOT of them.  You'd have to stagger the approach, though, as they can damage each other when they go off, and you can only get 2 can be in a Hex at a time.

My local "Battlemaster" (guy who organizes the weekly meet-up) was thinking about putting up a 5 tonner that moves 37, and carries a 135 in a VTOL.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

Charistoph's Painted Products of Mechanical Mayhem

acksed

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  • Posts: 286
Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #5 on: 20 November 2021, 23:34:50 »
VERY budget.  It has less than a 1/10th of the striking power of the ones above.  The Booby Trap's main power is the rating of its Engine (if it has one).  A 25 Engine is barely an HGR.

Still, playing with BV, can allow for a LOT of them.  You'd have to stagger the approach, though, as they can damage each other when they go off, and you can only get 2 in a Hex at a time.
That's the thing - the Sportsman is essentially a player-guided Long Tom shell that's trickier to use, but with no pesky moral conundrums about killing a friendly pilot. It can just hover in the background like a normal Ferret VTOL, doing some occasional spotting, then close in, land and pull the pin.

Edit: For something about the same BV that doesn't need to land:
Code: [Select]
Red Card Suicide Tank

Mass: 9 tons
Movement Type: Hover
Power Plant: 60 ICE
Cruising Speed: 118.8 kph
Maximum Speed: 183.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 204,140 C-bills

Type: Red Card
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: Hover
Tonnage: 9
Battle Value: 54

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    1
Engine                        60 ICE                  3
Cruising MP: 11
Flank MP: 17
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Control Equipment:                                  0.5
Lift Equipment:                                     1.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                          Internal   Armor
                          Structure  Value
     Front                   1         5
     R/L Side               1/1       4/4
     Rear                    1         3

Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage
Booby Trap                 Body        1.0
Drone Operating System     Body        1.4

60/30/15 damage in a unit this cheap is disgustipatin'.[/Daffy]
« Last Edit: 20 November 2021, 23:54:14 by acksed »
My Fic: [BattleTech] Not Invented Here - Technological progress is hard when you're all alone in the night... so why not send for help?

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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  • Posts: 1400
Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #6 on: 21 November 2021, 02:41:50 »
Code: [Select]
Crow (Charcoal)

Mass: 15 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 100 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 140.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 216 kph
Armor: Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
     3 SRM 2 (I-OS)
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3081
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-F-E
Cost: 531,000 C-bills

Type: Crow
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 15
Battle Value: 168

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  1.5
Engine                        100 Fuel Cell           4
Cruising MP: 13
Flank MP: 20
Heat Sinks:                   1                       0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     1.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor (Heavy Ferro)    39                      2

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         15   
     R/L Side               2/2      10/10   
     Rear                    2         2     
     Rotor                   2         2     


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage   
3 SRM 2                   Front        1.5     
Booby Trap                 Body        1.5     
Drone Operating System     Body        2.0     


A cheaper remote bomb version of Crow, that is intended to be escort the manned Crow and lure the enemy fire and rush through the enemy line while give the manned one enough time to retreat from the threat. Most of the expensive weaponry and engine was replaced to have only one use missiles and bomb.

I have pick Crow because its manned version has ECM - therefore it may generates ECCM.

Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #7 on: 21 November 2021, 08:07:02 »
Incidentally, the Isatrep VTOL 2 could easily take out the Mantis LAM I've been playing with.  It's more expensive, but 2 Crow (Charcoal) look plausibly adequate as well.

Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #8 on: 21 November 2021, 11:50:01 »
I played around with optimizing this strategy, coming up with a potent-yet-cheap suicide squad. 

The basic unit is a 10 ton VTOL with a 100 fuel cell engine.
Code: [Select]
Suicide VTOL

Mass: 10 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 100 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 162 kph
Maximum Speed: 248.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 308,889 C-bills

Type: Suicide VTOL
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 10
Battle Value: 67

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    1
Engine                        100 Fuel Cell           4
Cruising MP: 15
Flank MP: 23
Heat Sinks:                   1                       0
Control Equipment:                                  0.5
Lift Equipment:                                     1.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                          Internal   Armor 
                          Structure  Value 
     Front                   1         6   
     R/L Side               1/1       3/3   
     Rear                    1         2   
     Rotor                   1         2   


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage 
Booby Trap                 Body        1.0   
Drone Operating System     Body        1.5   
The 1 ton of armor should be fine for dealing with the occasional stray AC/2 shot.

One difficulty with this strategy is that drones shut down within an ECM field.  This can be countered with an ECM in ECCM mode.
Code: [Select]
Suicide VTOL ECM

Mass: 15 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 115 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 151.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 226.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 750,750 C-bills

Type: Suicide VTOL
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Experimental)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 15
Battle Value: 146

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  1.5
Engine                        115 Fuel Cell           5
Cruising MP: 14
Flank MP: 21
Heat Sinks:                   1                       0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     1.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  16                      1

                          Internal   Armor 
                          Structure  Value 
     Front                   2         6   
     R/L Side               2/2       3/3   
     Rear                    2         2   
     Rotor                   2         2   


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage 
Booby Trap                 Body        1.5   
Drone Operating System     Body        2.0   
ECM Suite                  Body        1.5     
Since it costs more, the bang/buck is about a factor of 2 worse and it's a bit slower, but still exceptionally fast compared to most units.  Deploying several Suicide VTOLs with a Suicide ECM VTOL could ameliorate this.

You also need a control vehicle.  The obvious choice is another VTOL based on the Suicide ECM, something like this:
Code: [Select]
Suicide Lord VTOL

Mass: 15 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 115 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 151.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 226.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-E
Cost: 338,250 C-bills

Type: Suicide Lord VTOL
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 15
Battle Value: 108

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  1.5
Engine                        115 Fuel Cell           5
Cruising MP: 14
Flank MP: 21
Heat Sinks:                   1                       0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     1.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  24                    1.5

                          Internal   Armor 
                          Structure  Value 
     Front                   2         8   
     R/L Side               2/2       5/5   
     Rear                    2         4   
     Rotor                   2         2   


Weapons
and Ammo                                  Location    Tonnage 
Drone Carrier Control System (5 drones)     Body        4.5   

So, 4 Suicides, a Suicide ECM, and a Suicide Lord pack into 70 tons, can deliver 515 damage to virtually any unit reliably, cost 2.325M, and have a BV of 522.  Alternatively, 5 Suicide ECMs and a Suicide Lord pack into 90 tons, can deliver 575 damage, cost 4.09M, and have a BV of 838.  Overall, it definitely seems overwhelming, and I don't see a good counter. 

Update: changed Suicide ECM and Suicide Lord to 15 tons.
« Last Edit: 22 November 2021, 07:17:52 by Lagrange »

Hellraiser

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #9 on: 21 November 2021, 18:21:25 »
and I don't see a good counter. 

Given they are Hovers & Vtols............. enter a woods hex?
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3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
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Daryk

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #10 on: 21 November 2021, 18:51:46 »
Or water, as the player mentioned up thread...

Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #11 on: 21 November 2021, 19:07:50 »
Given they are Hovers & Vtols............. enter a woods hex?
A mech (2 level of height) in a standard 2 level forest should take half damage from a VTOL booby trap going off at a 3 level height.  If that's 2x 100 point booby traps going off together, you end up with 100 points of damage on the shot from above table.  That's an expected 3.33 5 points hits to the head which is typically bad news.

If the mech drops prone or we are talking about a tracked vehicle damage should halve again, making it potentially survivable.  Still, ceding all open spaces because of the potential for a booby sounds like losing in most situations.

Syzyx

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #12 on: 21 November 2021, 20:42:02 »
As a correction to Lagrange's post. A level is 6 meters, a hex is 30 meters. Damage shouldn't halve unless the VTOL is at 8 levels or more above the ground. Booby traps are just dang nasty critters.

Though still they are quite costly for suicide drones, if one pays any attention to financial and materiel costs. On top of that they also don't tend to allow for quite as much salvage. So for a pickup game, they are the definite way to go if you never want to have anyone to play with again, but for campaign or otherwise 'in universe' scenarios, they really aren't that great an idea.
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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #13 on: 21 November 2021, 22:56:57 »
Most Pick Up / Non-Campaign games I've ever been to use TW rules & canon units so no worries there.


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Red Pins

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #14 on: 21 November 2021, 23:58:43 »
I can see I need to read the boobytrap rules rather then just assigning space to it.  But this is really interesting.
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Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #15 on: 22 November 2021, 07:32:38 »
(FYI, I updated the Suicide Squad to use 15 ton VTOLs for ECM or control.  It seems to make more sense.)

Damage shouldn't halve unless the VTOL is at 8 levels or more above the ground.
This is plausibly correct about what should happen.  The rules for AE explosions discussed in the building section of TW halves damage one level up or down.
Though still they are quite costly for suicide drones, if one pays any attention to financial and materiel costs. On top of that they also don't tend to allow for quite as much salvage.
If one suicide squad takes out 2-3 mechs costing 5M-20M each through shot-from-above damage, I expect you come out well ahead after salvage, repair, and replacement? 

Using them to take out infantry or other cheap units would be a waste, but there are other solutions for those.
« Last Edit: 22 November 2021, 08:32:11 by Lagrange »

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #16 on: 22 November 2021, 09:15:29 »
Yeah that's why remote controlled self destruct weapons are not so common - beside missiles and torpedos. But, anyway these are cheaper than expensive high tech weapons and are easy to build, so there is some advantage at least. You can't play the game by using those self destruct units as your core units, but anyway adding some panic button solution is not so bad either.

An another way to use such units is adding more roles, although it may make the unit more expensive.

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #17 on: 23 November 2021, 15:07:20 »
As a correction to Lagrange's post. A level is 6 meters, a hex is 30 meters. Damage shouldn't halve unless the VTOL is at 8 levels or more above the ground. Booby traps are just dang nasty critters.

Though still they are quite costly for suicide drones, if one pays any attention to financial and materiel costs. On top of that they also don't tend to allow for quite as much salvage. So for a pickup game, they are the definite way to go if you never want to have anyone to play with again, but for campaign or otherwise 'in universe' scenarios, they really aren't that great an idea.

In a "should" sense, probably, but the rules for artillery say otherwise, considering level as the equivalent of a hex.  The example is a VTOL hovering 1 Level above the devastation does not take full damage of a Tread right below it.
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Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #18 on: 04 December 2021, 16:30:13 »
There's a flaw in the VTOL based Booby Trap. 
Quote from: Booby Trap
Airborne units that employ a Booby Trap inflict no damage to other units unless another airborne unit is in the same hex on the Low Altitude map (or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit, within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit).

This is not a rule that makes sense physically, but it does reduce the power level to some extent, since a  VTOL booby trap must land to cause damage to ground units. 

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #19 on: 04 December 2021, 16:36:37 »
Back to woods & water for the win to avoid cheese :)
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CVB

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #20 on: 04 December 2021, 17:11:07 »
Back to woods & water for the win to avoid cheese :)
If you want water with your cheese: Flotation Hull!  ;)
« Last Edit: 04 December 2021, 21:39:22 by CVB »
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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #21 on: 04 December 2021, 19:44:37 »
You know, I just remembered somebody asking how to take down a super-heavy mech quickly, and I mentioned using a hovercraft to ram a leg.  Somebody else told me that would get me banned from his table, and I thought that was unfair.

Off topic, sorry, just came back to me reading the title.
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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #22 on: 04 December 2021, 22:04:19 »
You know, I just remembered somebody asking how to take down a super-heavy mech quickly, and I mentioned using a hovercraft to ram a leg.  Somebody else told me that would get me banned from his table, and I thought that was unfair.
Using a Drillson to do that I got no problem with.
The Savannah Master Swarm as a viable tactic however no one wants to be at the table with.
I can honestly say that in 35 years of playing this game I've never used more than 3 S.Masters in a game & that 3 was mostly filling out BV & for actual recon of the area.
The idea of bringing in 20 just to abuse the imbalance of the charge rules just screams ban them.
So I can see where some GM might have some PTSD from years ago & saying NO to people even attempting it, lol.
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Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #23 on: 04 December 2021, 22:57:04 »
So I can see where some GM might have some PTSD from years ago & saying NO to people even attempting it, lol.
Is a charging Savannah Master swarm actually that bad?  They do at most 5/10*20=10 damage on a charge attack, a target can be the subject of at most 1 charge attack, and physical attacks are executed after weapon attacks.  Inflicting at most 10 damage/round with a reasonable chance that the Savannah Master is destroyed before it can actually execute the charge seems underwhelming.

The medium laser of the SMs seems significantly more potent---a swarm can potentially inflict a fair bit of laser damage.   Even with lasers though, I think there are effective countermeasures.  Anything dealing area effect damage is pretty potent against a swarm, for example.

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #24 on: 04 December 2021, 23:41:15 »
Kind of?  I saw a player do that (he was a bit of a jerk) on the swap delta map, but really he shot himself in the foot when he couldn't get enough space to keep his movement modifier high enough while staying in sight of his target.

It was more the hassle, but on another map, they can be really, really annoying.
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Charistoph

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Re: How to lose friend and destroy relationships
« Reply #25 on: 05 December 2021, 00:34:39 »
There's a flaw in the VTOL based Booby Trap. 
This is not a rule that makes sense physically, but it does reduce the power level to some extent, since a  VTOL booby trap must land to cause damage to ground units.

What is the flaw?  A VTOL can fly in to the hex of a targetted Battlemech, be at cockpit height, and blow up.

Unless of course (quoting Hellraiser):
"Back to woods & water for the win to avoid cheese :)"

Which is what they did.

Of course, now I'm wondering how powerful a Protomech could be with that, as it doesn't suffer from the terrain problems.
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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #26 on: 05 December 2021, 00:47:19 »
Is a charging Savannah Master swarm actually that bad?  They do at most 5/10*20=10 damage on a charge attack, a target can be the subject of at most 1 charge attack, and physical attacks are executed after weapon attacks.  Inflicting at most 10 damage/round with a reasonable chance that the Savannah Master is destroyed before it can actually execute the charge seems underwhelming.

The medium laser of the SMs seems significantly more potent---a swarm can potentially inflict a fair bit of laser damage.   Even with lasers though, I think there are effective countermeasures.  Anything dealing area effect damage is pretty potent against a swarm, for example.

2 things.

I think your math might be off.   Doesn't BT have a rule of you round at every stage w/ minimum 1 damage?
So your formula above would net 20 damage per charge.
Also if you hit from the side hexes then there isn't even a chance of alternating the legs.  They can all land on the same leg every turn to quickly snap it off.

The other thing w/ the swarm is actually a Per turn over turn issue of stopping a mech from moving.   They can basically pen you in & you can't move.
Enough of them will stop a mech from getting a movement turn of 1 more than 1 hex since you stop when you enter an enemy hex unless its infantry.

And your right, over the long term, the Medium lasers are nasty.
Finally, back in the BV1 days they were barely 1/2 of the current BV2 value so you could fit in a lot more.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #27 on: 05 December 2021, 00:51:34 »
What is the flaw?  A VTOL can fly in to the hex of a targetted Battlemech, be at cockpit height, and blow up.

That's just it, based on the rule quote he gave, they don't do any damage to the mech, like, at all.

Quote
Quote from: Booby Trap
Airborne units that employ a Booby Trap inflict no damage to other units unless another airborne unit is in the same hex on the Low Altitude map (or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit, within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit).
If the Vtol is still airborne its saying it can only damage other airborne units.

The mech is fine, it watches the fireworks but suffers no damage................. unless you actually LAND at its feet, hence the Woods & Water which would stop a V-Tol from landing.
So it sounds like those "head shots" were against the rules & should have have happened in the game.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

CVB

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #28 on: 05 December 2021, 01:17:11 »
A really expensive rules lawyer could argue that, according to the exact wording, the mech would be damaged by an airborne booby trap, as long as another VTOL unit is within 3 hexes: "no damage to other units unless another" [...] "non-aerospace airborne unit [is] within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit" (same argument for an AS unit in the same hex of the low altitude map)

So send in a double strike and be done...

Not what the rules meant, probably, but  :D ;D anyway
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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #29 on: 05 December 2021, 01:28:10 »
Yeah, I'm not touching that, its clear they mean you only do damage to other airborne units.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

CVB

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #30 on: 05 December 2021, 01:46:22 »
Fully agree. Just an example how rules writing benefits from using simple sentences,   even at the cost of literary elegance.  :)
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
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Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #31 on: 05 December 2021, 08:45:34 »
I think your math might be off.   Doesn't BT have a rule of you round at every stage w/ minimum 1 damage?
There's an example in the charging rules with a Jaegermech at 65 tons.  They round at the end, which seems to be consistent with the text for rounding in the charging rules.   I don't see a general rule for rounding in the beginning of TW.
The other thing w/ the swarm is actually a Per turn over turn issue of stopping a mech from moving.   
Ah, I hadn't appreciated this.  It makes jump more valuable.

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #32 on: 05 December 2021, 12:26:47 »
There's an example in the charging rules with a Jaegermech at 65 tons.  They round at the end, which seems to be consistent with the text for rounding in the charging rules.   I don't see a general rule for rounding in the beginning of TW.
Maybe its just construction then but I swear I just read something the other day that rounding occurs at every stage.

This also then would mean that punching in a 55 ton mech doesn't do 12 damage w/ TSM on, but I'm sure its always been ruled that way.
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

assaultdoor

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #33 on: 05 December 2021, 13:49:59 »
Quote
(or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit, within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit).

Wouldn't a VTOL be a non-aerospace airborne unit? In that case, I can only assume that being in the same hex as a `Mech and being at roughly cockpit height would count as being within 3 hexes and elevations. Am I missing something here?

Charistoph

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #34 on: 05 December 2021, 14:54:28 »
The mech is fine, it watches the fireworks but suffers no damage................. unless you actually LAND at its feet, hence the Woods & Water which would stop a V-Tol from landing.
So it sounds like those "head shots" were against the rules & should have have happened in the game.

Exceptions preceded by the "or" are important, as Assaultdoor just mentioned.  A Mech is 2 levels tall and a VTOL being 1 level above elevation, the VTOL is within 3 elevation of said Mech, as it is on its elevation.

Of course, that could be an interesting conundrum.  Should the Punch Table take full damage and the Kick table half damage?  Of course, then if a Hover did the same, the full damage should be against the legs, and half damage to the torso...

I didn't play it that way, I only consider the Mech taking one set of damage instead of two.  It would make Artillery FAR more dangerous to Mechs if they had to take 2 hits from Artillery, depending on the relationship to the Mech and the hit hex.  Taking a Long Tom in your hex would me that your legs take 20 damage the torso takes 10 damage!
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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #35 on: 05 December 2021, 15:35:14 »
Wouldn't a VTOL be a non-aerospace airborne unit? In that case, I can only assume that being in the same hex as a `Mech and being at roughly cockpit height would count as being within 3 hexes and elevations. Am I missing something here?


Exceptions preceded by the "or" are important, as Assaultdoor just mentioned.  A Mech is 2 levels tall and a VTOL being 1 level above elevation, the VTOL is within 3 elevation of said Mech, as it is on its elevation.

Of course, that could be an interesting conundrum.  Should the Punch Table take full damage and the Kick table half damage?  Of course, then if a Hover did the same, the full damage should be against the legs, and half damage to the torso...

I didn't play it that way, I only consider the Mech taking one set of damage instead of two.  It would make Artillery FAR more dangerous to Mechs if they had to take 2 hits from Artillery, depending on the relationship to the Mech and the hit hex.  Taking a Long Tom in your hex would me that your legs take 20 damage the torso takes 10 damage! 


Yes, your missing something.........  the description is telling you what the TARGET can be.

Okay lets break this down.

Point-1..
"Airborne units that employ a Booby Trap inflict no damage to other units unless" .............

Stop there, airborne bombs don't do damage to other units.  Period. 

Then it moves on to exceptions to that.

Point-2..

"another airborne unit is in the same hex on the Low Altitude map"

So right here you take no damage, UNLESS, your on the Low Altitude map in the same hex as the bomber.

It's telling us that an explosion "in the air" only damages other things "in the air".


Point-3..
"(or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit, within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit)."

Now we get to the "Ground Map" portion.   

"Non-Aerospace Airborne Unit"........   So Non-Aerospace units that can also go airborne...........This is talking about Vtols & WIGEs & LAMs when they are not landed/standing on ground-1 elevation.

Here, on the normal BT/Ground Map, you actually track Hex Distance & Elevation, unlike on the Low Altitude Map where you MUST be in the same hex.  (See Point-1)

The Explosion in mid air, can ONLY damage a unit that is both AIRBORNE and within THREE hexes or elevation levels of the explosion.

Mechs are NOT AIRBORNE.  They are on the ground at Elevation-0,  it doesn't matter that a tank is 1 level or a mech is 2 levels tall.  Its ON elevation-0 as a Ground Unit.

It is Neither an Aerospace Unit, Nor, is it a Ground Unit that has gone Airborne the way a VTOL, WIGE, or LAM can do.


This is what was pointed out several posts above originally that an airborne bomb can't actually hurt ground units UNLESS it lands on the ground & is no longer "airborne"



3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
3053: Star Colonel Rexor Kerensky: The Silver Wolves

"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Charistoph

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #36 on: 05 December 2021, 15:59:33 »
I'm sorry , but this "(or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit...", is not reading as the target to me, but the user of the booby trap.

VTOLs being non-aerospace, yet airborne, fall in the second category, not the first. 

It also makes more sense because there is no logical reason why a fusion bomb going off in front of your face won't hurt you just because you're on the ground, and the bomb is between 5 and 13 meters off the ground, when the explosion affects all air traffic 18 meters above AND below it..
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Lagrange

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #37 on: 05 December 2021, 16:53:00 »
I'm sorry , but this "(or, if a non-aerospace airborne unit...", is not reading as the target to me, but the user of the booby trap.
The rest of the quote seems to indicate otherwise?
Quote from: Booby Trap
a non-aerospace airborne unit, within 3 hexes and elevations of the exploding Booby Trapped unit
The VTOL/WIGE/LAM is near to the exploding unit, not the exploding unit.

It also makes more sense because there is no logical reason why a fusion bomb going off in front of your face won't hurt you just because you're on the ground, and the bomb is between 5 and 13 meters off the ground, when the explosion affects all air traffic 18 meters above AND below it..
Agreed here---the rules don't make much sense physically.  Of course, that's not the first time.

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #38 on: 05 December 2021, 17:24:26 »
That whole paragraph has some problems, but "In such an event, the other airborne unit must make a Control Roll/Piloting Skill Roll when the Booby Trap explodes. If this roll fails, the other airborne unit suffers damage equal to one-quarter of the exploding unit’s Engine Rating" makes it pretty clear that only airborne units can take damage in this case. I've asked a question about this in the TO rules forum: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/tactical-operations/booby-traps-and-vtols

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #39 on: 05 December 2021, 17:29:10 »
Right. I think the rules intend to mean what Lagrange, assaultdoor and and Hellraiser read in them (with the caveat that they never actually say that the target has to be airborne, only "a" unit, see my post above today at 07:46:22), but Charistoph is right that these rules are nonsensical, especially since they then go on to say that "If an atmosphere is present and the underlying terrain is not water, the hex occupied by an exploding Booby Trapped unit is filled with fire after the unit’s destruction." So the damage from an airborne booby trap carefully curves around a groundbound target without a scratch but impacts the ground in a 15m radius around it to fill it with flames....
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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #40 on: 05 December 2021, 18:04:57 »
The rest of the quote seems to indicate otherwise?The VTOL/WIGE/LAM is near to the exploding unit, not the exploding unit.

The comma is important.  It reads to me as being an aside (albeit an important aside) that provides a change of subject for this latter point.

What is the reasoning to be mentioning a non-aerospace unit at this point if it is talking about a unit taking the damage instead of the unit causing the damage?  The rules already mentioned it only affecting airborne units in the hex, so it would be redundant to restate it only hitting airborne units again.

If it was only to be hitting airborne units on the Ground map, the aside would be to specifically mention when the airborne unit is NOT using an Altitude Map, but using the Ground Maps instead.  Instead, it mentions units that are not using an Altitude Map at all, like WIGE's and VTOLs.

Edit: Maybe this portion of the discussion should be sent up to Rules Questions and/or Errata for clarification.
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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #41 on: 06 December 2021, 00:20:26 »
It doesn't have to spell out "ground map" because the only thing allowed on the "Low Altitude" map are AEROSPACE units.   (At least I think that is the case)

VTOLs, LAMs, & WIGEs are all NOT AEROSPACE units.

They are GROUND units that can go AIRBORNE.

This is not the first time this clarification of Aerospace v/s Airborne has come up on these boards & has been clarified in the past in regards to shooting Artillery from an Aerospace/Airborne unit.

YJ-Arrow = Yep while flying.
Fortress Dropship = Nope, only while Grounded.


I'll admit I had to read the sentence a few times to make sure I understood what it was saying but once I followed the wording, its pretty clear to me.

Its telling you that the Bomber & Target MUST be in the Same Hex IF on the Low Altitude Map.
OR,
If NOT, on the low altitude map,
Then,
The target must be an Airborne Unit w/in 3 hexes/Elevations of the Bomber.



As for that bit about setting the hex on fire but missing/not hurting a mech.
Arrow Inferno does the same thing in essence & the mech WOULD suffer heat effects from being in a hex that is on fire.

Its basically saying the entire hex is hit by an AE-Heat weapon that sets it on fire, regardless of what else is in the hex.
IF something else was down below it, then, that thing, mech/vee/infantry, will have to deal w/ being in a burning hex on their turn.

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CVB

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #42 on: 06 December 2021, 01:00:38 »
As for that bit about setting the hex on fire but missing/not hurting a mech.
Arrow Inferno does the same thing in essence & the mech WOULD suffer heat effects from being in a hex that is on fire.

Its basically saying the entire hex is hit by an AE-Heat weapon that sets it on fire, regardless of what else is in the hex.
IF something else was down below it, then, that thing, mech/vee/infantry, will have to deal w/ being in a burning hex on their turn.

Sorry, but what it actually says is that the the booby trap changes its character depending on the attacker or defender being in contact with the ground or not. Let's take a booby trapped VTOL as attacker and another VTOL as target.

Scenario 1:
The target is on the ground at lvl0, the attacker lands next to it and detonates the trap. Result: full damage.

Scenario 2:
Target hovers at lvl1, attacker at lvl2. Result: 1/4 damage

Scenario 3:
Take Scenario2, but now the attacker waits a turn and, after both attacker target sink by 6 meters, detonates the trap in the next turn.
Target at lvl0, attacker at lvl1. Result: no damage at all, because suddenly the booby trap has changed to a "AE-Heat weapon that sets [the whole hex] on fire".

Is that logical?

PS. The rules seem to be silent on the scenario of having the booby trap on the ground and the target airborne a level above.


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Charistoph

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #43 on: 06 December 2021, 01:50:08 »
It doesn't have to spell out "ground map" because the only thing allowed on the "Low Altitude" map are AEROSPACE units.   (At least I think that is the case)

VTOLs, LAMs, & WIGEs are all NOT AEROSPACE units.

They are GROUND units that can go AIRBORNE.

This is not the first time this clarification of Aerospace v/s Airborne has come up on these boards & has been clarified in the past in regards to shooting Artillery from an Aerospace/Airborne unit.

YJ-Arrow = Yep while flying.
Fortress Dropship = Nope, only while Grounded.


I'll admit I had to read the sentence a few times to make sure I understood what it was saying but once I followed the wording, its pretty clear to me.

Its telling you that the Bomber & Target MUST be in the Same Hex IF on the Low Altitude Map.
OR,
If NOT, on the low altitude map,
Then,
The target must be an Airborne Unit w/in 3 hexes/Elevations of the Bomber.

But your point just adds to my point instead of disproving it.  It MUST be talking about the it being a VTOL/WIGE/LAM being the explosive one, NOT the one hit by the explosive.  It literally cannot work any other way.  The punctuation creates separations that are key.  If it was talking about being on the Ground Map, it would just say, "(or if on the ground map, within 3 Levels)".

An aerospace unit in the Low Altitude Map cannot be in the same hex as a VTOL/WIGE/LAM, so therefore the subject must be changing from the aerospace unit with a Trap to a VTOL/WIGE/LAM with a Trap.

The alternative is to just go with the Ground Rules for VTOL/WIGE/LAM, and elevation just doesn't matter or it burns off like Artillery Damage, 10 points per Level till you run out.
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DOC_Agren

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Re: How to lose friends and destroy relationships
« Reply #44 on: 07 December 2021, 17:14:28 »
The Savannah Master Swarm as a viable tactic however no one wants to be at the table with.
I can honestly say that in 35 years of playing this game I've never used more than 3 S.Masters in a game & that 3 was mostly filling out BV & for actual recon of the area.
The idea of bringing in 20 just to abuse the imbalance of the charge rules just screams ban them.
So I can see where some GM might have some PTSD from years ago & saying NO to people even attempting it, lol.
I have had 2 player I play with use the SM swarm...  Both of them used for lack of a better word "Herding" enemies to killing fields and if loosing harassing the other side retreat with victory goals.
It was amazing to watch one of them loose the defensive battle they had to fight, but then win when the pirates instead of being able to retreat quick and easy to their LZ had to slow down and avoid the SMs that were still nipping at their heels by using cover that the SM could not easy move into and get flanked by his mechs before the LZ and this time the battle was fought on his terms.


"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"