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Author Topic: Support our troops challange  (Read 760 times)

Gorgon

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Support our troops challange
« on: 19 September 2022, 17:03:18 »
Something simple (I hope): Show me what (to you) is the perfect infantry support tank / vehicle! No restrictions on tech, BV or C-Bills (unless you choose to impose some on yourself) I lack the experience in using conventional forces so I'd like to learn from you what's the best way to support infantry.

A few questions to go along with it:
  • What type of infantry do you envision to work alongside your tank?
  • What threats is it meant to face?
  • What weapons / equipment do you think is mandatory to fulfill it's role?
  • How do you envision it and the infantry it supports to be deployed?
Please share your ideas and insights!
Jude Melancon lives!

Daryk

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #1 on: 19 September 2022, 18:08:16 »
Goblins.  No, seriously (but mostly the variants).  An actual tank that can carry a squad is the way to go.  With the insane ranges of the Laser Rifles (much less the Sniper Rifles) from Shrapnel, infantry is suddenly more relevant than it's ever been.  But Anti-Infantry weapons remain frighteningly effective, so a single platoon per lance of tanks is a good balance.  My thread about the Glenmora Militia (in my sig block) was created before Shrapnel, and I'll eventually get around to updating it.  I actually put two platoons of infantry in those lances (via a MG-variant Goblin), but the principle is still there.

wolfgar

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #2 on: 19 September 2022, 21:28:27 »
i sorta disagree, Goblins are a compromise design trying to mix an IFV with a support tank, it does neither very well. However, either a Vedette or Bulldog frame with variants for weapons or work as an IFV/APC so that while the engine, armor and motive systems, are all interchangable.

example Vedette
Code: [Select]
Vedette Medium Tank (Standard)

Mass: 50 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 250 ICE
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 AC/5
     1 Machine Gun
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2943
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-C-D-D
Cost: 725,750 C-bills

Type: Vedette Medium Tank
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: 475

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    5
Engine                        250 ICE                25
Cruising MP: 5
Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Control Equipment:                                  2.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             1.0
Armor Factor                  96                      6

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   5         20   
     R/L Side               5/5      18/18   
     Rear                    5         20   
     Turret                  5         20   


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage   
Machine Gun               Front        0.5     
AC/5                      Turret       8.0     
Machine Gun Ammo (200)     Body        1.0     
AC/5 Ammo (20)             Body        1.0     



Code: [Select]
Vedette Medium Tank APC

Mass: 50 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 250 ICE
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     2 Machine Gun
     1 SRM 4
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2943
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-C-C-C
Cost: 706,250 C-bills

Type: Vedette Medium Tank
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: 441

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    5
Engine                        250 ICE                25
Cruising MP: 5
Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Control Equipment:                                  2.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  96                      6

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   5         20   
     R/L Side               5/5      18/18   
     Rear                    5         20   
     Turret                  5         20   


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage   
SRM 4                     Turret       2.0     
2 Machine Gun             Turret       1.0     
Machine Gun Ammo (200)     Body        1.0     
SRM 4 Ammo (50)            Body        2.0     
Infantry                   Body        5.0     



Example Bulldog
Code: [Select]
Bulldog Medium Tank (Standard)

Mass: 60 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 240 ICE
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Machine Gun
     2 SRM 4
     1 Large Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2673
Tech Rating/Availability: E/C-D-C-C
Cost: 1,272,800 C-bills

Type: Bulldog Medium Tank
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 60
Battle Value: 605

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    6
Engine                        240 ICE                23
Cruising MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks:                   8                       8
Control Equipment:                                  3.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.5
Turret:                                             1.0
Armor Factor                  104                   6.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   6         24   
     R/L Side               6/6      20/20   
     Rear                    6         20   
     Turret                  6         20   


Weapons
and Ammo                      Location    Tonnage   
Machine Gun                    Front        0.5     
Large Laser                    Turret       5.0     
2 SRM 4                        Turret       4.0     
SRM 4 Ammo (50)                 Body        2.0     
Half Machine Gun Ammo (100)     Body        0.5     



Code: [Select]
Bulldog Medium Tank IFV

Mass: 60 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 240 ICE
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Machine Gun
     1 AC/5
     1 SRM 4
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2673
Tech Rating/Availability: E/C-C-D-D
Cost: 1,046,400 C-bills

Type: Bulldog Medium Tank
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 60
Battle Value: 523

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    6
Engine                        240 ICE                23
Cruising MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Control Equipment:                                  3.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             1.0
Armor Factor                  104                   6.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   6         24   
     R/L Side               6/6      20/20   
     Rear                    6         20   
     Turret                  6         20   


Weapons
and Ammo                 Location    Tonnage   
Machine Gun               Front        0.5     
SRM 4                     Turret       2.0     
AC/5                      Turret       8.0     
Machine Gun Ammo (200)     Body        1.0     
AC/5 Ammo (40)             Body        2.0     
SRM 4 Ammo (50)            Body        2.0     
Infantry                   Body        5.0     


Wolf wins every fight but one, and in that one he dies, his fangs locked on the throat of his opponent.

Daryk

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #3 on: 20 September 2022, 03:27:29 »
The standard Goblin is an ICE vehicle with an energy weapon.  You need to look at the variants to get to the good ones.

wolfgar

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #4 on: 20 September 2022, 19:06:24 »
and the only half decent variant is the "Sealed" variant that wasn't built until the Jihad era, and had a fusion engine and a snub-nosed PPC. quite frankly, 4/6 at 45 tons is pathetic,
Wolf wins every fight but one, and in that one he dies, his fangs locked on the throat of his opponent.

Daryk

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #5 on: 20 September 2022, 19:09:01 »
LRM and SRM Goblins are perfectly fine in 3025, and heck, the MG variants aren't that bad then...  8)

Sir Chaos

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #6 on: 22 September 2022, 05:42:25 »
I feel that the IFV version of my Behemoth Infantry Carrier could fit here, too: https://bg.battletech.com/forums/combat-vehicles/behemoth-infantry-carrier/msg1868323/#msg1868323
"Artillery adds dignity to what would otherwise be a vulgar brawl."
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idea weenie

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #7 on: 22 September 2022, 06:58:27 »
A 3025-tech fairly basic Infantry carrier.

It has:
- a single LRM-5 on a turret, with 2 tons of ammo to provide a potential second choice of ammo
- Technically the LRM and ammo could be stored in the turret, meaning that anything massing 4 tons of less could be shoved in the turret for an easy swap
- 4 tons of cargo to carry an infantry unit (or a 3-ton infantry unit and 1 ton of mission options)
- wheeled 5/8 speed to give it decent speed
- 4.5 tons of armor to make destroying it very annoying (it can take a PPC hit to any facing)
- fusion reactor, so the infantry can recharge any laser rifles from the vehicle's onboard power plant, and there is no need to keep it supplied with fuel
- a trailer hitch in the rear to pull a trailer for more options

BV of 295, and cost of just over 300,000 C-Bills

Alternate designs remove 1 ton of LRM ammo and 1 ton of infantry capacity to give the vehicle either the Environmental Sealing modification, or the Fully Amphibious modification (both in Tactical Operations, pages 302-303).  As these are structural changes they cannot be refitted onto an existing vehicle, and removing them does not provide useful cargo capacity to the vehicle.  They are effectively three different designs, rather than one design with two variants.

Code: [Select]
Annoying  IFV

Mass: 20 tons
Movement Type: Wheeled
Power Plant: 80 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 LRM 5
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3025
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-E-D-D
Cost: 301,583 C-bills

Type: Annoying
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Movement Type: Wheeled
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 295

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    2
Engine                        80 Fusion               4
Cruising MP: 5
Flank MP: 8
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  72                    4.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         19   
     R/L Side               2/2      14/14   
     Rear                    2         11   
     Turret                  2         14   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
LRM 5                  Turret       2.0     
LRM 5 Ammo (48)         Body        2.0     
Infantry                Body        4.0     
Trailer Hitch           Rear        0.0     

Cannonshop

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #8 on: 29 September 2022, 10:55:50 »
to the original question: a LOT of the correct answer has to do with how you set up your doctrine.

1. is the force intended to be mobile/easily deployable offworld?
2. what does your other supporting arms look like?
3. how much logistics are you going to handwave?

Answer 1 has to do with the size of vehicle bays on dropships.  Under 50 tons for the most advantageous bays for a force that is expected to go places OTHER than their home  planet.

Now, since I currently don't have any generation software installed on this computer...

My answer to (1) was "We don't want to leave home or go very far."  So, I went heavier than is optimal for a unit with interstellar deployment ideas.

I took the base model Rommel/Pattons from TRO 3025 as my basis.

Three basic chassis that share lots of components (drivetrain, armor, etc.)

The base model, is your MBT, which is a Patton with the AC/10 swapped out for an LBX-10, the flamer and laser swapped for an AMS and half a ton of ammo, and some armor loss to install a coaxial small pulse laser (since we've got those 10 heat sinks).

The Infantry carrier loses the main gun for a standard PPC and a four ton infantry bay crammed into the hull, the engine and final drive being relocated to the front of the tank to give it a 'drop door' in the rear, everything is kept at the same tonnage and the only weapon in common with the MBT is the LRM 5, which is loaded with smoke or Thunder.

The Mobile artillery is a Rommel with the main gun swapped for a Thumper with the same ammo complement.  this is followed by a prime mover using the same chassis minus turret, that has a lift hoist and lots of ammunition storage. 

Supplementary vehicles using the same engine and chassis include a CEV with a bulldozer blade, backhoe, towing adapter and machine guns.

The Command post model reverts to the PPC and five tons of Commo gear.

using "Efficiencies of scale" (a dirty word in the Battletech setting) this makes maximum use of every ton of stored parts *(or max use of every pallet of transported spares provided you can wrangle enough dropship lift to move the unit).

A nice person took my basic ideas, and did a wheeled amphib 'scout vehicle' that also uses the same engine, we're calling it the 'Fennec Marine Scout car".

Why use one common chassis for all this? simply logistics.  It's more efficient if your spare parts fit without a lot of custom hand-fitting.  In realistic settings your mechanics will have a much easier training cycle if they only need to learn one engine, one gearbox, and so on, and your drivers can be trained much faster if they only have to learn one instrument panel and control layout.

but this can be done with nearly ANY type of vehicle within the 45 to 70 ton range, with the possible exception of VTOLs or submarines.

My "Ideal" therefore, has a LOT to do with the idea that armies need efficient supply chains that make the most use of each kilo or cubic centimeter of storage and transport.

Typically in CANON battletech, a battalion of armor is 36 vehicles...and often 37 different types in the same battalion.

Simplified logistics (common fusion power plant, common drivetrain and gear box components, only variations where you HAVE to have them, common armor composite type and so on...) on the strategic level means forces have more endurance in the field, and easier training cycles on the support end.  (If your guns don't go 'bang' then it doesn't matter that they're bigger, if your tanks are hobbled by the wrong spares, they don't do so hot on the field problem, and so on...)

I chose the LBX because it's got two things going for it:

A) it's stone-ass reliable.  With a shell in the chamber, when the gunner presses the firing button, it goes 'bang'.
B) it's a very Versatile weapon that can be used to clear enemy infantry, knock out enemy air support, and still engage hard targets like other tanks or even 'mechs reliably.

I chose AMS because of game-considerations (crit seekers are most of the time missiles, and Infernoes are still deadlier to conventional forces than they are to 'mechs).

The pulse-laser is more of a gimme to the tech-heads out there, my own preference would be a medium laser for heavy work and maybe sacrifice some protection for machine-guns to deal with crunchies.

The choice of the Thumper has to do with a doctrine of fire-and-move where mobility is actually important, as is the ability to SUSTAIN FIRE in the role of terrain denial or screening an advance.  It doesn't do the damage a Sniper or Long Tom does, but it's got a DEEP ammo bay, and with firing units of three tubes to an FDC (or four) you can lay down patterns of fire ahead of your infantry advance.

The layout of the IFV version, is plotted specifically with the idea that the IFV is supporting the crunchies on the ground directly after they dismount, mainly in the role of lighting up anything too tough for infantry weapons to chew through.

My typical Kowloonese Battalion would be one company of MBT, two of IFV's, and a firing battery of artillery with a scout section attached at battalion level. 36 vehicles, 4 types, with two companies of infantry and a Battlesuit platoon.

Scaling up to Regimental, and you add an engineering company with the CEV version, additional CP and FDC vehicles, and an aviation section running common (cheap) spotter VTOLs.

The key factors here being that it's easy on the inventory, and training doesn't have to be as broad-based for maintenance-your crews can handle most light maintenance tasks, while battalion, regimental and depot levels don't have to keep a broad base of books to handle the wide variety of vehicles most House and Merc units are saddled with.

It's expensive to buy, but cheap to maintain, diggit?
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Taron Storm

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #9 on: 29 September 2022, 11:23:31 »
Got bored a while ago and came up 26 Vedette designs for 3042 era, with and without turrets, for armor and infantry support.

AAA (AC/2's)
AC/10
Anti-Tank (AC-20)
Blazer
Exoskeleton Transport
Bridge Layer
Cargo (10 tons)
Command
Drone Carrier
EWAR
Field Kitchen
Gauss
IFV (2 versions)
LB-10X
LRM
MASH
MBT
Marine Amphip IFV (2 versions)
Minesweeper/Minelayer
Recovery
SRM
Sensor Dispensor
Thumper (with and without turret)

Forgot to add the zip file for MML.
« Last Edit: 30 September 2022, 12:35:26 by Taron Storm »

Daryk

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #10 on: 29 September 2022, 18:21:57 »
Where's the Blazer Cannon variant?!  :D

Taron Storm

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #11 on: 29 September 2022, 18:42:37 »
Blazer added.  Forgot to add the zip file.

Daryk

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #12 on: 29 September 2022, 19:42:50 »
Woo!  :D

maxcarrion

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #13 on: 16 November 2022, 14:23:50 »
I think you need to start with questions about doctrine and purpose.  For example.

I have a militia unit supported with 3/5 ICE tanks armed with LB10-X and twin LMGs.  As it is infantry support they do not need to be fast but they are pretty cheap and provide good fire against a variety of targets at mid range.

The mobile infantry have a more expensive 5/8 FCE IFV armed with 2xMML5, equipped with infantry TAG the IFV can indirect SG-LRM, lay mines, pop smoke or start blazing infernos depending on mission requirements.

The marines tend to have 50T ish SFE tanks like Myrmidons which tend to be more like MBTs or MBTs with infantry compartment as the limit on transport space means we want high quality and flexibility and are more flexible on cost.

There are plenty of other doctrines and the purpose/definition of infantry support tank can be varied depending on how you want to execute that doctrine.

Retry

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Re: Support our troops challange
« Reply #14 on: 16 November 2022, 23:31:19 »
i sorta disagree, Goblins are a compromise design trying to mix an IFV with a support tank, it does neither very well.
It's a compromise design trying to fit energy weapons on an ICE platform.  Happens to any ICE vehicle trying to mount big energy guns, when you could get a nearly identical performance envelope for much lighter and sometimes even cheaper with a fusion engine; ICE syndrome has little to do with role.
Code: [Select]
Goblin Medium Tank (Mini)
Mass: 25 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 125 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 54 kph
Maximum Speed: 86.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Machine Gun
     1 Large Laser
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2500
Tech Rating/Availability: E/C-E-D-D
Cost: 539,167 C-bills
Type: Goblin Medium Tank
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Tonnage: 25
Battle Value: 570
Equipment Mass
Internal Structure 2.5
Engine 125 Fusion 6
     Cruising MP: 5
     Flanking MP: 8
Heat Sinks: 10 0
Control Equipment: 1.5
Power Amplifier: 0
Turret: 0.5
Armor Factor: 120 7.5
Internal
Structure Armor
Value
Front 3 30
R/L Side 3/3 20/20
Rear 3 20
Turret 3 30
Weapons
and Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Machine Gun Front 1 0.5
Large Laser Turret 2 5
Half Machine Gun Ammo (100) Body 1 0.5
Infantry Body 1 1

 

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