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Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank  (Read 2943 times)

acksed

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Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« on: 02 July 2022, 14:32:02 »
Post alternative designs, improvements and such for the Manticore here. Less than eleven years late!

Speaking of a hypothetical Manticore C - would it lean more into the long range aspect (ERLL + bigger LRM rack and more ammo), mid range (ERPPC + Streaks) or short range (LPL + larger/more SRMs) if we assume the Horses make one then I feel the long or the short is more likely, mid seems like something the Wolves would cook up.
I can totally see Diamante Shorks licensing the Manticore, making it into an OmniVehicle, have all three variants as configs and sell them to everyone.

Here's the base. The exact same slow-ish, staid tank sold for centuries, but you won't be wanting for spare parts on the open market:
Code: [Select]
Manticore C (Omni)

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: Tracked OmniVehicle
Rules Level: Advanced Rules
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Production Year: 3070
Dry Cost: 2,335,000 C-Bills
Total Cost: 2,335,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 557

Power Plant:  240 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor:  Standard Armor
Armament:
    21.0 tons of pod space.
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      30 points                6.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                240                      17.50
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0.00
Control Equipment:                                                         3.00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0.00
Turret:                                                                    1.50
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 176                 11.00

                                                      Armor
                                                      Factor
                                               Front     42
                                          Left/Right   33/33
                                              Turret     42
                                                Rear     26


The Prime is a classic headcapper and missile combo. Since the ATM has always seemed like a master of none, you kind of have to make it a centrepiece of the secondary armament (ammo available at reasonable rates):
Code: [Select]
Loadout Name: Prime                                          Cost: 3,675,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E-D                       BV2: 1,333

Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             15                        5.00

Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Anti-Missile System                          FR        1         1         0.50
ER PPC                                       T         15        1         6.00
ATM-6                                        T         4         1         3.50
2 AP Gauss Rifles                            T         2         2         1.00
@ATM-6 (10)                                  BD        -         0         1.00
@ATM-6 (ER) (10)                             BD        -         0         1.00
@ATM-6 (HE) (10)                             BD        -         0         1.00
@AP Gauss Rifle (40)                         BD        -         0         1.00
@Anti-Missile System (24)                    BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 13
4t         4       4       2       0      3     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: OMNI, AMS, CASE, TUR(4/4/2)

More familiar to the fans, this is set up for long-range fire-support, but also capable of putting the boot in (have you subscribed to our resupply service?):
Code: [Select]
Loadout Name: Long-Range                                     Cost: 4,087,000
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E-D                       BV2: 1,343

Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             12                        2.00

Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER Large Laser                               T         12        1         4.00
LRM-20                                       T         6         1         5.00
    Artemis IV FCS                           T         -         0         1.00
SRM-6                                        T         4         1         1.50
    Artemis IV FCS                           T         -         0         1.00
AP Gauss Rifle                               T         1         1         0.50
@SRM-6 (Artemis) (15)                        BD        -         0         1.00
@LRM-20 (Artemis) (18)                       BD        -         0         3.00
@SRM-6 (15)                                  BD        -         0         1.00
@AP Gauss Rifle (40)                         BD        -         0         1.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 13
4t         4       4       3       0      3     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: OMNI, CASE, TUR(4/4/3, IF 2/2/2), IF 2

Something of a brawler and Battle-Armour clearer, the Short-Range is also pretty good at scouting, calling artillery or clearing forest. Don't underestimate the LPL, either (excellent rates on Clan spares!):
Code: [Select]
Loadout Name: Short-Range                                    Cost: 4,202,500
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-X-E-D                       BV2: 1,253

Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(R) A-Pod                                    RR        0         1         0.50
Large Pulse Laser                            T         10        1         6.00
2 Streak SRM-6s                              T         8         2         6.00
Heavy Flamer                                 T         5         1         1.50
TAG                                          T         0         1         1.00
Active Probe                                 BD        0         1         1.00
ECM Suite                                    BD        0         1         1.00
@Streak SRM-6 (30)                           BD        -         0         2.00
@Heavy Flamer (20)                           BD        -         0         2.00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 13
4t         4       4       2       0      3     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: OMNI, TAG, PRB, RCN, ECM, CASE, TUR(4/4/2)
My Fic: [BattleTech] Not Invented Here - Technological progress is hard when you're all alone in the night... so why not send for help?

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8854
Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #1 on: 02 July 2022, 15:06:33 »
Here's a C as i figure it could be:

Fully Clan-spec. Ferro-fibrous armor, turret has familiar ERPPC/LRM-10/SRM-6 trio, while front has an ERML. Funny enough, thanks to Ferro-fibrous weight savings and lighter Clan weapons, this works out very nicely, with 6 points of armor over the original.

Code: [Select]
Manticore Heavy Tank C

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Clan
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: F/X-F-D-D
Production Year: 0
Dry Cost: 3 304 000 C-Bills
Total Cost: 3 361 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1 368

Power Plant:  240 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 43,2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64,8 km/h
Armor:  Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  ER PPC
    1  LRM-10
    1  ER Medium Laser
    1  SRM-6
    1 Unknown CASE
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      30 points                6,00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                240                      17,50
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             20                       10,00
Control Equipment:                                                         3,00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0,00
Turret:                                                                    1,00
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV - 182                  9,50

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     45       
                                          Left/Right   34/34       
                                              Turret     43       
                                                Rear     26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER Medium Laser                              FR        5         1         1,00
ER PPC                                       T         15        1         6,00
LRM-10                                       T         4         1         2,50
SRM-6                                        T         4         1         1,50
CASE                                         BD        -         0         0,00
@LRM-10 (12)                                 BD        -         0         1,00
@SRM-6 (15)                                  BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 14
4t         4       4       3       0      3     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: CASE, TUR(3/3/3), IF 1

Sun Tzu Liao: Scheming, opportunistic weasel of a ruler, or brilliant political tactician?
-What's the difference?

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8854
Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #2 on: 02 July 2022, 15:20:49 »
Inner Sphere "advanced" model, with XL engine, heavy ferro-fibrous armor, CASE, and fully upgraded weapons, meaning extended range energy weapons, Streak SRMs and Artemis IV for the LRM-10.

Code: [Select]
Manticore Heavy Tank XL

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Production Year: 3075
Dry Cost: 7 896 000 C-Bills
Total Cost: 8 010 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1 134

Power Plant:  240 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 43,2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64,8 km/h
Armor:  Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  ER PPC
    1  LRM-10 w/ Artemis IV FCS
    1  Streak SRM-6
    1  ER Medium Laser
    1 Unknown CASE
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      30 points                6,00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             240                       9,00
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             20                       10,00
Control Equipment:                                                         3,00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0,00
Turret:                                                                    2,00
Armor:              Heavy Ferro-Fibrous          AV - 178                  9,00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     44       
                                          Left/Right   33/33       
                                              Turret     42       
                                                Rear     26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER Medium Laser                              FR        5         1         1,00
ER PPC                                       T         15        1         7,00
Streak SRM-6                                 T         4         1         4,50
LRM-10                                       T         4         1         5,00
    Artemis IV FCS                           T         -         0         1,00
CASE                                         BD        -         1         0,50
@LRM-10 (Artemis) (12)                       BD        -         0         1,00
@Streak SRM-6 (15)                           BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 11
4t         4       4       2       0      3     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: CASE, TUR(3/3/2), IF 1

Sun Tzu Liao: Scheming, opportunistic weasel of a ruler, or brilliant political tactician?
-What's the difference?

Cannonshop

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8795
Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #3 on: 02 July 2022, 20:44:10 »
Inner Sphere "advanced" model, with XL engine, heavy ferro-fibrous armor, CASE, and fully upgraded weapons, meaning extended range energy weapons, Streak SRMs and Artemis IV for the LRM-10.

Code: [Select]
Manticore Heavy Tank XL

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Production Year: 3075
Dry Cost: 7 896 000 C-Bills
Total Cost: 8 010 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1 134

Power Plant:  240 Fusion XL Engine
Cruise Speed: 43,2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64,8 km/h
Armor:  Heavy Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  ER PPC
    1  LRM-10 w/ Artemis IV FCS
    1  Streak SRM-6
    1  ER Medium Laser
    1 Unknown CASE
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      30 points                6,00
Engine:             XL Fusion Engine             240                       9,00
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             20                       10,00
Control Equipment:                                                         3,00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0,00
Turret:                                                                    2,00
Armor:              Heavy Ferro-Fibrous          AV - 178                  9,00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     44       
                                          Left/Right   33/33       
                                              Turret     42       
                                                Rear     26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ER Medium Laser                              FR        5         1         1,00
ER PPC                                       T         15        1         7,00
Streak SRM-6                                 T         4         1         4,50
LRM-10                                       T         4         1         5,00
    Artemis IV FCS                           T         -         0         1,00
CASE                                         BD        -         1         0,50
@LRM-10 (Artemis) (12)                       BD        -         0         1,00
@Streak SRM-6 (15)                           BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 11
4t         4       4       2       0      3     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: CASE, TUR(3/3/2), IF 1


You end up wasting five tons, and since vees can't mount DHS...  Vehicle mounts are one of the best uses of pre-helm energy weapons left over from your 'mech refit programs, esp. on fusion vees, because you can 'cool it' with the onboard sinks in the fusion engine.  Can't do that with ER PPC's or Lasers. (that five tons just on your ERPPC can go to other systems, or additional armor, more efficiently, for example providing deeper bins for your AMS and CASE, or sundry tactically useful things, like Command post gear or C3 masters.)
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Empyrus

  • Lieutenant Colonel
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  • Posts: 8854
Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #4 on: 02 July 2022, 21:12:40 »
Wasting 5 tons has a side effect of keeping BV lower than expected.

Also don't care it wastes 5 tons, there are canon units that are far more wasteful.
Sun Tzu Liao: Scheming, opportunistic weasel of a ruler, or brilliant political tactician?
-What's the difference?

Sabelkatten

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  • Posts: 6520

Atarlost

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #6 on: 03 July 2022, 20:20:55 »
You end up wasting five tons, and since vees can't mount DHS...  Vehicle mounts are one of the best uses of pre-helm energy weapons left over from your 'mech refit programs, esp. on fusion vees, because you can 'cool it' with the onboard sinks in the fusion engine.  Can't do that with ER PPC's or Lasers. (that five tons just on your ERPPC can go to other systems, or additional armor, more efficiently, for example providing deeper bins for your AMS and CASE, or sundry tactically useful things, like Command post gear or C3 masters.)

You're comparing mechs and tanks here not tanks and tanks. 

An ERPPC is 7 tons of turret weight and 5 tons in the body so usually 13 tons total with 3 tons to spare in the turret.  What's the alternative?  You want something that does better than 5 point clusters, has no or a very short minimum range, and has similar range brackets, and doesn't jam or explode.  That rules out all of the introtech energy weapons.  It also rules out any autocannon 5 or less, any non-hvac autocannon bigger than 5, and any hvac at all. 

So there's the ERLL, but it has a shortened long range bracket.  It is a lot more efficient, but 20% smaller and the efficiency advantage evaporates if you try to mount more than one.  There's the gauss rifle, which is great but is 15 tons base plus ammo and 1.5 tons of turret so minimum 17.5 and for a reasonable mounting 18.5-19.5 tons.  That just doesn't fit in a 13 ton mass budget or alongside an SRM-6 in a 17 ton mass budget.  There's the light gauss, but that is less efficient than the first ERPPC on a tank.  Better range, but that means neither can be considered a substitute for the other.  Nothing else has at least comparable range and better than 5 point damage clusters and doesn't explode when you look at it funny (I'm looking at you HVAC-10). 

But off the ERPPC topic, the Manticore as it should have been:
Code: [Select]
Manticore Heavy Tank (Standard)

Mass: 50 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 200 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 PPC
     1 SRM 6
     1 LRM 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2575
Tech Rating/Availability: E/C-E-D-D
Cost: 1,944,250 C-bills

Type: Manticore Heavy Tank
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: 928

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    5
Engine                        200 Fusion             13
Cruising MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  2.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             1.5
Armor Factor                  176                    11

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   5         42   
     R/L Side               5/5      33/33   
     Rear                    5         26   
     Turret                  5         42   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
SRM 6                  Turret       3.0     
PPC                    Turret       7.0     
LRM 10                 Turret       5.0     
LRM 10 Ammo (12)        Body        1.0     
SRM 6 Ammo (15)         Body        1.0     

If you can't immediately see what was done to get it to fit in a light vehicle bay you probably weren't using it.  It's not something easy to forget exact values for like armor or ammo.  If you can tell, well you can decide if the exchange is worthwhile. 

Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #7 on: 03 July 2022, 23:21:56 »
You're comparing mechs and tanks here not tanks and tanks. 

An ERPPC is 7 tons of turret weight and 5 tons in the body so usually 13 tons total with 3 tons to spare in the turret.  What's the alternative?  You want something that does better than 5 point clusters, has no or a very short minimum range, and has similar range brackets, and doesn't jam or explode.  That rules out all of the introtech energy weapons.  It also rules out any autocannon 5 or less, any non-hvac autocannon bigger than 5, and any hvac at all. 

So there's the ERLL, but it has a shortened long range bracket.  It is a lot more efficient, but 20% smaller and the efficiency advantage evaporates if you try to mount more than one.  There's the gauss rifle, which is great but is 15 tons base plus ammo and 1.5 tons of turret so minimum 17.5 and for a reasonable mounting 18.5-19.5 tons.  That just doesn't fit in a 13 ton mass budget or alongside an SRM-6 in a 17 ton mass budget.  There's the light gauss, but that is less efficient than the first ERPPC on a tank.  Better range, but that means neither can be considered a substitute for the other.  Nothing else has at least comparable range and better than 5 point damage clusters and doesn't explode when you look at it funny (I'm looking at you HVAC-10). 

But off the ERPPC topic, the Manticore as it should have been:
Code: [Select]
Manticore Heavy Tank (Standard)

Mass: 50 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 200 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 PPC
     1 SRM 6
     1 LRM 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2575
Tech Rating/Availability: E/C-E-D-D
Cost: 1,944,250 C-bills

Type: Manticore Heavy Tank
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: 928

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    5
Engine                        200 Fusion             13
Cruising MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  2.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             1.5
Armor Factor                  176                    11

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   5         42   
     R/L Side               5/5      33/33   
     Rear                    5         26   
     Turret                  5         42   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
SRM 6                  Turret       3.0     
PPC                    Turret       7.0     
LRM 10                 Turret       5.0     
LRM 10 Ammo (12)        Body        1.0     
SRM 6 Ammo (15)         Body        1.0     

If you can't immediately see what was done to get it to fit in a light vehicle bay you probably weren't using it.  It's not something easy to forget exact values for like armor or ammo.  If you can tell, well you can decide if the exchange is worthwhile.

AND a Standard PPC is 7 tons.
wait, it isn't 7 tons plus five in the body?? nope.  it's 7 tons, with the heat-sinks being integral to the engine, giving an 18 hex, ten point swat with no ammunition concerns (unlike, say, the 13 tons you'll pay to carry an autocannon).  Mixed with the rest of the base model weaponry, that's a ten point whack plus crit-seeking from the LRM racks and potentially infernoes from the SRMs, making a well-rounded weapons fit on a chassis that can go hull-down, or sneak by with concealment and/or cover from L1 terrain.

While not as impressive as a battlemech of the same mass, it isn't supposed to be-if you want to be impressive, you drive a 'mech.  If you want to be highly effective and relatively cheap without breaking the bank? that's when you buy tanks, but 'highly effective' has a lot more to do, as they say, with what you do with it, than what it is.

The BEST upgrades stick pretty close to the original, 3026 layout, and leverage advantages in terms of mass (as your example above shows), refining the layout to be more uniform with the secondary weapons fit, adding movement or armor. 

why? same reason as 'Sherman reasoning'-there were oodles of more powerful tanks out there, with bigger guns, heavier armor, whatever-but the U.S. could produce Shermans at prodigious rates, and they were 'good enough' as tanks (The T-34 also had this basic advantage over more advanced German and British designs.)

While hauling hedcappers IS nice, it's not necessary, or even necessarily more useful than having reliable weapons that don't break your treasury to own and maintain.

That all said, I rather think that replacing the missile systems with a Multimissile launcher could improve the performance significantly on the basic Myrmidon chassis (Without needing an engine swap).  WITH the engine swap, there's potential for an even broader application than the current model has, without wasting tonnage on heat sinks.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Ramblefire

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #8 on: 04 July 2022, 01:01:45 »
Code: [Select]
Manticore Heavy Tank (SRM6)

Mass: 60 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 240 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 PPC
     2 SRM 6
     1 LRM 10
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 2668
Tech Rating/Availability: E/C-E-D-D
Cost: 2,734,400 C-bills

Type: Manticore Heavy Tank
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 60
Battle Value: 994

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    6
Engine                        240 Fusion           17.5
Cruising MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  3.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             2.0
Armor Factor                  168                  10.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   6         40   
     R/L Side               6/6      32/32   
     Rear                    6         24   
     Turret                  6         40   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
2 SRM 6                Turret       6.0     
PPC                    Turret       7.0     
LRM 10                 Turret       5.0     
LRM 10 Ammo (12)        Body        1.0     
SRM 6 Ammo (30)         Body        2.0     
Behold! I have dropped the medium laser and about 8 points of armor to mount another SRM-6 and another ton of SRM ammo. Of course, I could have just put it where the ML used to be, but I kinda don't feel like it, and it really is such a negligible drop in protection that I really don't care.

I just think it's much more efficient to use an SRM launcher than another energy weapon after the internal heat sinks have been used up.

Daryk

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #9 on: 04 July 2022, 01:32:59 »
That 50-ton version works for me!  :thumbsup:

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #10 on: 04 July 2022, 02:58:09 »
I see the 50-ton Manticore has already been done.  I started with the same idea, but more advanced tech, and incorporating an MML:

Code: [Select]
Manticore-M Medium Tank

Mass: 50 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 200 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 43.2 kph
Maximum Speed: 64.8 kph
Armor: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
     1 Small Pulse Laser
     1 PPC
     1 MML 7
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3080
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-E-D
Cost: 2,101,750 C-bills

Type: Manticore-M Medium Tank
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Standard)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: 904

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    5
Engine                        200 Fusion             13
Cruising MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks:                   12                      2
Control Equipment:                                  2.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             1.5
Armor Factor (Ferro)          197                    11

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   5         46   
     R/L Side               5/5      36/36   
     Rear                    5         33   
     Turret                  5         46   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
Small Pulse Laser      Front        1.0     
MML 7                  Turret       4.5     
PPC                    Turret       7.0     
MML 7 LRM Ammo (17)     Body        1.0     
CASE                    Body        0.5     
MML 7 SRM Ammo (14)     Body        1.0     



For a straight intro-tech 50-ton Manticore, though, @Atarlost got it pretty much perfect, I'd say.
"“Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.” -- Stephen Hawking

Daryk

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #11 on: 04 July 2022, 03:08:18 »
Hmmm... 5 MGs and a half ton of ammo would be superior to a Small Pulse and 2 HS, I think...

Atarlost

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #12 on: 04 July 2022, 13:17:22 »
The Sherman is not the only example of a successful tank in history. 

Both Desert Storm and the early stages of the more recent Iraq war demonstrated what happens when tanks with less effective range go up against tanks with more effective range.  If the other guy has ERPPCs or gauss rifles and you don't you have a big problem. 

Fighting in cities may almost always be an option for the defenders, but you can't safely land your dropships in artillery shot of anywhere that might have artillery garrisoning it so you're crossing several mapsheets of whatever is around the city and if your enemies prefer to face you there they can.  And on Earth cities are very commonly built on flood plains because that's where the good farmland and river access is. 

Empyrus

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #13 on: 04 July 2022, 15:22:50 »
Here's a brilliant(tm) Kurita-flavor Manticore based on the 3055 model. Removed the LRM and SRM launchers for MRM-20 and MRM-10, each with only a ton of ammo. Also put back the PPC because Kurita.
Come to think of it, i should've found weight to put a C3 slave there but whatever.
Code: [Select]
Manticore Heavy Tank (Kurita)

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Clan Invasion
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-E
Production Year: 3058
Dry Cost: 2 640 000 C-Bills
Total Cost: 2 704 000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1 012

Power Plant: Pitban 240 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 43,2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64,8 km/h
Armor: Durallex Super Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
    1  PPC
    1  MRM-20
    1  MRM-10
    1  Streak SRM-2
Manufacturer: Defiance Industries
    Primary Factory: Hesperus II
Communications System: TharHes Muse 54-58K
Targeting and Tracking System: TharHes Targitrack

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      30 points                6,00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                240                      17,50
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             10                        0,00
Control Equipment:                                                         3,00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0,00
Turret:                                                                    2,00
Armor:              Ferro-Fibrous                AV - 179                 10,00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     43       
                                          Left/Right   34/34       
                                              Turret     42       
                                                Rear     26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Streak SRM-2                                 FR        2         1         1,50
MRM-20                                       T         6         1         7,00
MRM-10                                       T         4         1         3,00
PPC                                          T         10        1         7,00
@MRM-20 (12)                                 BD        -         0         1,00
@MRM-10 (24)                                 BD        -         0         1,00
@Streak SRM-2 (50)                           BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 10
4t         3       4       1       0      3     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: TUR(3/3/1)

Sun Tzu Liao: Scheming, opportunistic weasel of a ruler, or brilliant political tactician?
-What's the difference?

Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #14 on: 04 July 2022, 22:32:45 »
The Sherman is not the only example of a successful tank in history. 

Both Desert Storm and the early stages of the more recent Iraq war demonstrated what happens when tanks with less effective range go up against tanks with more effective range.  If the other guy has ERPPCs or gauss rifles and you don't you have a big problem. 

Actually those demonstrate what happens when you field tanks-as-bunkers against someone with airpower.  During the Sandbox fights, we saw BRADLEYS killing MBTs with their 25mm bushmasters.  73 Easting mostly happened because the Iraqi general staff thought they were fighting on The Somme in 1917 and dug their tanks into pre-arranged graves, and had jack for AAA or air cover.

The major erasers of Tanks in both Gulf wars, were aircraft, this doesn't model in Battletech, either, though for a different reason.

In the world of reality, The first vehicle to engage generally tends to register a kill in a single hit.  (presuming your impact power is the same even if your range is different, as with a jeep mounted TOW versus an MBT as seen in the "Toyota war" in north africa in the 1970s).  one-hit kills in BATTLETECH require massive guns that don't fit on a turret (Heavy Gauss Rifle or equivalent), or a significant armor deficit due to weight (aka less than 15 points on a hull facing, which you only find for the most part in vees under 40 tons.)

Otherwise you're having to hit a LOT.  (especially post TW, where most of your shots are going to be smacking the treads instead of the explodey, soft, mission pod in the middle).  Thus the usefulness of LBX or crit-seekers even as a first strike against Battletech's tanks.

Range, IOW, is less valuable (it's still valuable) with big-single-hits unless they're VERY big (as in, bigger than a Gauss rifle or CERPPC).

This actually models closer to WW2 tank warfare than modern.  In modern warfare, the 'strategy' of parking is suicide, or prep for abandoning the vehicle, in Battletech warfare, it's the optimum strategy for a heavily armored, assault-weight tracked vehicle because your opponent must erode the layers of plating before they get to the juicy, explodey, center, and most of their shots go into the treads you aren't using because you've parked.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Empyrus

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #15 on: 05 July 2022, 05:17:51 »
Succession Wars Manticore, with a Blazer. Downgraded missile launchers one step each and removed the medium laser to fit the Blazer.
Strictly speaking it probably would make more sense to keep a SRM-6 with the Blazer and focus on close combat as Blazers don't have minimum ranges, but i didn't have ideas for the leftover two tons.
Code: [Select]
Manticore Heavy Tank (Blazer)

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/X-E-E-D
Production Year: 3025
Dry Cost: 2 351 200 C-Bills
Total Cost: 2 408 200 C-Bills
Battle Value: 912

Power Plant: Pitban 240 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 43,2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64,8 km/h
Armor: ArcShield Maxi II Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  Binary Laser Cannon
    1  LRM-5
    1  SRM-4
Manufacturer: Defiance Industries, Jalastar Aerospace
    Primary Factory: Hesperus II (Defiance), Panpour (Jalastar)
Communications System: O/P R Janxiir
Targeting and Tracking System: TargiTrack 717

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      30 points                6,00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                240                      17,50
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             16                        6,00
Control Equipment:                                                         3,00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0,00
Turret:                                                                    1,50
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 176                 11,00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     42       
                                          Left/Right   33/33       
                                              Turret     42       
                                                Rear     26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Binary Laser Cannon                          T         16        1         9,00
LRM-5                                        T         2         1         2,00
SRM-4                                        T         3         1         2,00
@LRM-5 (24)                                  BD        -         0         1,00
@SRM-4 (25)                                  BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 9
4t         2       3       1       0      3     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: TUR(2/3/1)

Sun Tzu Liao: Scheming, opportunistic weasel of a ruler, or brilliant political tactician?
-What's the difference?

Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #16 on: 05 July 2022, 05:42:43 »
Succession Wars Manticore, with a Blazer. Downgraded missile launchers one step each and removed the medium laser to fit the Blazer.
Strictly speaking it probably would make more sense to keep a SRM-6 with the Blazer and focus on close combat as Blazers don't have minimum ranges, but i didn't have ideas for the leftover two tons.
Code: [Select]
Manticore Heavy Tank (Blazer)

Mass: 60 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: Tracked
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Succession Wars
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/X-E-E-D
Production Year: 3025
Dry Cost: 2 351 200 C-Bills
Total Cost: 2 408 200 C-Bills
Battle Value: 912

Power Plant: Pitban 240 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 43,2 km/h
Flanking Speed: 64,8 km/h
Armor: ArcShield Maxi II Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  Binary Laser Cannon
    1  LRM-5
    1  SRM-4
Manufacturer: Defiance Industries, Jalastar Aerospace
    Primary Factory: Hesperus II (Defiance), Panpour (Jalastar)
Communications System: O/P R Janxiir
Targeting and Tracking System: TargiTrack 717

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      30 points                6,00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                240                      17,50
    Cruise MP:  4
    Flank MP:   6
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             16                        6,00
Control Equipment:                                                         3,00
Lift Equipment:                                                            0,00
Turret:                                                                    1,50
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 176                 11,00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     42       
                                          Left/Right   33/33       
                                              Turret     42       
                                                Rear     26       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Binary Laser Cannon                          T         16        1         9,00
LRM-5                                        T         2         1         2,00
SRM-4                                        T         3         1         2,00
@LRM-5 (24)                                  BD        -         0         1,00
@SRM-4 (25)                                  BD        -         0         1,00

BattleForce Statistics
MV      S (+0)  M (+2)  L (+4)  E (+6)   Wt.   Ov   Armor:      6    Points: 9
4t         2       3       1       0      3     0   Structure:  3
Special Abilities: TUR(2/3/1)


Three MG's and half a ton of ammo?  Kind of a "Duster" build for the succession wars and urban combat?
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Ruger

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #17 on: 05 July 2022, 07:12:13 »
I go with the KISS principle on this one, and have two versions; an early to mid 3050’s advanced model and a latter one, circa Jihad era:

3052 model:
Mass 60 tons
Chassis: 6 tons
Engine: 240 fusion - 17.5 tons
Heat Sinks: 15 - 5 tons
Controls: 3 tons
Turret: 1.5 tons
Armor: 179 (ferro) - 10 tons
Weapons:
ER PPC - turret - 7 tons
SRM-6 - turret - 3 tons
LRM-10 - turret - 5 tons
Ammo(SRM)15 - body - 1 ton
Ammo(LRM)12 - body - 1 ton

Jihad model:
Mass: 60 tons
Chassis: 6 tons
Engine: 240 fusion- 17.5 tons
Heat Sinks: 15 - 5 tons
Controls: 3 tons
Turret: 1.5 tons
Armor: 179 (ferro) - 10 tons
Weapons and Equipment:
ER PPC - turret - 7 tons
2 MML-5 - turret - 6 tons
3 Ammo(MML)20/24 - body - 3 tons
CASE II - body - 1 ton

Without the minimum range on the main gun, the medium laser is larger superfluous, so its tonnage (with heat sinks) goes to heat sinks for the ER PPC, with the last ton needed coming from switching the armor to ferro (gaining 3 points, even though one ton lighter). The switch of missile launchers in the Jihad era frees enough mass to add an advanced CASE system to protect the crew (or more armor instead of one doesn’t care about crew survivability in the case of ammo explosion).

Ruger
"If someone ever tries to kill you, you try to kill 'em right back." - Malcolm Reynolds, Firefly

"Who I am is where I stand. Where I stand is where I fall...Stand with me." - The Doctor, The Doctor Falls, Doctor Who

Daryk

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #18 on: 05 July 2022, 07:40:02 »
Empyrus: How about a second SRM-4?  It would fit on the turret...

Cannonshop: I was foolishly handed the air support in one game, and the other side helpfully clustered all their armor together inside the blast radius.  I literatlly dropped every bomb I was given on turn 1...  >:D

Empyrus

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #19 on: 05 July 2022, 07:44:41 »
Empyrus: How about a second SRM-4?  It would fit on the turret...
2 tons left with Blazer and SRM-6 with a ton of ammo, so SRM-4 is not an option. SRM-2 would fit.
Suppose Blazer and 2xSRM-4 with two tons of ammo would be fine. Certainly more useful than single LRM-5...

Sun Tzu Liao: Scheming, opportunistic weasel of a ruler, or brilliant political tactician?
-What's the difference?

Daryk

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #20 on: 05 July 2022, 07:50:58 »
Oh, I see what you meant now.  You meant with an SRM-6, you had two tons left over.  An LRM-5's greatest use with an otherwise close-combat machine is smoke... that lets you GET close...  ^-^

Empyrus

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #21 on: 05 July 2022, 08:05:25 »
Two tons of SRM ammo allows infernos and setting fires. Also good for removing infantry. Suppose it works fine either way.
Sun Tzu Liao: Scheming, opportunistic weasel of a ruler, or brilliant political tactician?
-What's the difference?

Atarlost

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #22 on: 05 July 2022, 20:00:36 »
In the world of reality, The first vehicle to engage generally tends to register a kill in a single hit. 

That applies to WWII tanks too, though being first in urban combat and hedgerows is about turret traverse rate and having a commander that can look for targets because he doesn't also have to load the gun. 

If you insist on a model that isn't one hit one kill you have to look at armored warships.  And in armored warships pretty much everyone except the folks trying to keep the Danton program funded has agreed that range is one of the dominant concerns ever since someone invented usable rangefinders. 

Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #23 on: 05 July 2022, 22:29:10 »
Empyrus: How about a second SRM-4?  It would fit on the turret...

Cannonshop: I was foolishly handed the air support in one game, and the other side helpfully clustered all their armor together inside the blast radius.  I literatlly dropped every bomb I was given on turn 1...  >:D

I had a table THROWN AT ME when I did that once. (the player in question was...volatile.  a good guy normally. and it was more of a 'flipped at me' than anything, but...yeah. not a good scene.)

"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Daryk

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #24 on: 06 July 2022, 07:07:44 »
Fortunately, the table we were playing on was heavier than any of us could lift and no one was... that.  I will say the GM stopped using air support after that game...  ^-^

kaliban

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #25 on: 06 July 2022, 08:20:21 »
Manticore Heavy Tank (ICE conversion)

Same as for the Schreks, several Manticore were placed out of service and their Fusion Reactors and Weapons used as spare parts for other vehicles and Battlemechs. The PPC was replaced by a Large Laser. The front mounted limited transverse turret with an medium laser was replaced by a Machine Gun.


Mass: 60 tons
Movement Type: Tracked
Power Plant: 180 ICE
Cruising Speed: 32.4 kph
Maximum Speed: 54 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Machine Gun
     1 SRM 6
     1 Large Laser
     1 LRM 10
Cost: 1,353,600 C-bills

Type: Manticore Heavy Tank
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Tracked
Tonnage: 60
Battle Value: 849

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    6
Engine                        180 ICE                14
   Cruising MP: 3
   Flank MP: 5
Heat Sinks:                   8                       8
Control Equipment:                                3.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.5
Turret:                                                     1.5
Armor Factor                  176                 11

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   6         42   
     R/L Side           6/6      33/33   
     Rear                    6         26   
     Turret                  6         42   


Weapons
and Ammo                                  Location    Tonnage      
Machine Gun                                   Front        0.5     
SRM 6                                             Turret       3.0     
Large Laser                                     Turret       5.0     
LRM 10                                           Turret       5.0     
LRM 10 Ammo (12)                        Body        1.0     
Half Machine Gun Ammo (100)      Body        0.5     
SRM 6 Ammo (15)                           Body        1.0     
   

Daryk

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #26 on: 06 July 2022, 09:13:49 »
Why not go whole hog with an AC/10? ???

Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #27 on: 06 July 2022, 12:25:44 »
Why not go whole hog with an AC/10? ???

I'm thinking endurance.  The AC/10 has more range than a standard Large Laser, but at 13 tons total, (13.5 with the power amp) that's not quite enough endurance (you're only carrying a single ton of ammo-which is 10 shots.)

after which, it's 12 tons of paperweight occupying the turret.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Daryk

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #28 on: 06 July 2022, 12:36:50 »
Another potential win for fractional accounting, then...  ::)

kaliban

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Re: Vehicle of the Week Workshop: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #29 on: 07 July 2022, 15:19:43 »
Why not go whole hog with an AC/10? ???

two reasons. First to not change turret weight as this is a conversion from a standard Manticore. Second because I did that design for the Outworlds Alliance and they produce large lasers but not AC/10s

 

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