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Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 79431 times)

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #990 on: 03 August 2022, 12:53:02 »
The Gorilla Exoskelleton BA is 5 points for the non-combat, industrial version, but 3 points for the modified combat version, both for a squad of 4.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4225/gorilla-exoskeleton-pex-2b-sqd4
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5440/gorilla-exoskeleton-falcata-sqd4

Alex suggested this may be a swapping of the point values, since the industrial version is basically just fluff with no combat ability.

These are correct, though odd.  There is a discount for combat units that are slow and short range only.  Non-combat units can't get the discount. 
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets]

Geg

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #991 on: 03 August 2022, 12:59:04 »
Is there a publicly documented process around what unit gets into assigned to which Era and Faction?

Sartris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #992 on: 03 August 2022, 13:00:22 »
there is not. in part because a not insubstantial amount of the material we use to make said decisions is also not public
« Last Edit: 03 August 2022, 13:02:03 by Sartris »

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #993 on: 03 August 2022, 13:37:45 »
Is there a publicly documented process around what unit gets into assigned to which Era and Faction?

Same as every other product created for BattleTech.
Somebody makes a proposal (from the MUL team), it goes through fact check (the rest of the MUL team), it's debated, and a consensus is achieved.  If the team can't achieve a consensus, it gets bumped to me, and if I can't get an answer, I can bump it up higher.
Once it gets posted/published, fans can question it here, where the feedback offered is considered by the team again, it's debated, and a consensus is achieved again.
I think in the last few years, I don't think it's had to get beyond the team achieving a consensus.  Sometimes the debate has dragged on so long it gets lost... But we haven't had a complete "X said yes, Y says no" and there's no way to get an agreement in the past several years.  We had a handful in the early years of the MUL. 

There are no rules beyond that though.  No "book X counts more than book Y".  Individuals might have such opinions, but it's not a rule of the team. Anybody can bring any evidence they wish. Each question is taken entirely on its own merits.  There's no "we said Z doesn't count as much as a source last time". 

The only rule is the team must reach a consensus.
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets]

Empyrus

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #994 on: 03 August 2022, 14:04:06 »
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/5776/condor-heavy-hover-tank-fission

As i understand it, the Fission engines don't give EE specials in AS.
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pokefan548

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #995 on: 05 August 2022, 14:59:34 »
The following 'Mechs with Record Sheets included in the free Force Pack Record Sheets: Wave 1 reference that publication as their TRO instead of their record sheet:
  • Victor
  • Zeus
  • Crockett
The Blackjack C and Archer C2 also reference BattleTech ForcePack Record Sheets: Wolf's Dragoons as their TRO source, despite not having any TRO.
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Sartris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #996 on: 05 August 2022, 15:32:46 »
ah ha. those three were all in a row and my brain flipped for whatever reason on just those five.

goons mechs TRO set to None for now

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #997 on: 05 August 2022, 15:42:43 »
Good stuff.

Hey, out of curiosity, is it possible at some point we could get a filter to only show the "featured" 'Mechs that usually make up a 'Mechs "default" configuration in a given era?
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #998 on: 05 August 2022, 15:43:55 »
can ask. no idea how feasable that is but you can currently sort by the column with the stars

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #999 on: 05 August 2022, 17:32:03 »
ah ha. those three were all in a row and my brain flipped for whatever reason on just those five.

goons mechs TRO set to None for now
So... when will that list get long enough that there WILL be a TRO? ???

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1000 on: 05 August 2022, 17:34:33 »
ask ray

Addendum: TRO for the source is a bit of a misnomer. It’s just the most recent place where the variant is directly mentioned and described (though TROs usually take precedence). For something like the Alfar, for example, that place is a sourcebook.
« Last Edit: 05 August 2022, 17:39:22 by Sartris »

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1001 on: 05 August 2022, 17:42:34 »
Fine... off to the "Ask the Developers" forum...  ::)

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1002 on: 05 August 2022, 19:33:18 »
I was directed over here by GreekFire, from the post https://bg.battletech.com/forums/strategic-games/rakshasa-glitch/.

While recomputing a number of 'Mechs, I think I ran across a consistent error in the MUL.  The Alpha Strike Companion 1.5 Errata states that LRMs and MMLs with Artemis systems should not confer the Indirect Fire special ability (IF#), but it appears that most if not all 'Mechs with Artemis-equipped LRMs are getting credit for this ability.  The discovery case was the MDG-1A Rakshasa, but I found 175 'Mechs affected by issue, from perennial favorites like Timberwolf and Mad Dog B variants to obscure 'Mechs like the Attwater Ryoken, and from 'Mechs with almost no benefit, such as the IF0* ASN-23 Assasin all the way up to the ARC-5CS Archer at IF4.  All told, I believe 175 'Mechs are impacted by this errata.

I can provide a complete list of 'Mechs that should be stripped of their IF# special, but I wanted to ask here before I posted to see if I was misinterpreting the rule.

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1003 on: 05 August 2022, 19:47:19 »
Artemis equipped units can't use the enhanced Artemis damage values for IF, but they can count for IF. 
From ASC errata
"⑤ Indirect Fire (IF#) (p. 125)
Under “Conversion”, third sentence
This ability receives a numerical rating equal to the Long range attack value for all these weapons combined, rounded normally
Change to:
This ability receives a numerical rating equal to the left-most (non-Artemis) Long range attack value for all these weapons
combined, rounded normally"

So an Artemis equipped LRM-15 counts the same as a non-Artemis LRM-15 for Indirect Fire.
Artemis equipped LRMs do not count for the LRM special ability.  But they do count for IF.
Left of Center blog - Nashira Campaign for A Game of Armored Combat, TP 3039 Vega Supplemental Record Sheets]

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1004 on: 08 August 2022, 14:08:55 »
I wonder about Foot Rifle Platoon (and RAF Ballistic Rifle Platoon) BV. Currently MUL and TRO3085 Supplemental give their BV as 81 at baseline.
My calculations, assuming 28-trooper Foot Platoon (1MP) with standard Auto-Rifles:
Code: [Select]
Defensive BV: 28x1.5=42, defensive factor of 1.0 so defensive BV total is 42.
Offensive BV:
Auto Rifle 28x1.59=44.52
Anti-'Mech capability: 44.52
Weapon BV total: 44.52+44.52=89.04
Speed factor 0.54, from 1 MP.
Offensive BV total: 0.54x89.04=48.0816‬

Final BV: 48.0816‬+42=90 (rounded normally to nearest whole number)
This assumes 4/5 skills, but since there's no AM training, that needs to be adjusted to 4/8
Which is 0.85 multiplier, equaling 76.5, rounded normally to 77BV

I do wonder though, am i making a mistake at speed factor calculation? Because assuming 0 MP (or more specifically, 0 TMM), speed factor becomes 0.44 and the final result gets rounded to 81.

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1147/foot-platoon-rifle
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1141/foot-ballistic-rifle-hastati-v-513th-infantry-regiment
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Sartris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1005 on: 08 August 2022, 14:13:18 »
Infantry BVs are currently under construction

Empyrus

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1006 on: 08 August 2022, 14:18:07 »
Infantry BVs are currently under construction
Ooh, OK, that explains things. I assume something got adjusted in errata at some point.

I also assume it is safe to trust manual calculations based on TechManual currently?
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Sartris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1007 on: 08 August 2022, 14:20:31 »
As long as you do the math right, yeah  :))


Empyrus

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1008 on: 08 August 2022, 14:29:17 »
As long as you do the math right, yeah  :))
Yeaah, i know this all too well, i managed to mess up that simple BV calculation few times before getting it right.

Thanks.
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pokefan548

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1009 on: 08 August 2022, 15:09:55 »
Looks like the weight for most if not all PA(L)s is wrong. If going per-suit, they should weigh .25 tons. A squad of 4 should weigh 1 ton, a point of 5 1.25 tons, and a Level II of 6 1.5 tons.
Some weigh .4 tons, which I suspect is based on the total capacity of a PA(L) (which itself is a very weird aspect of PA(L)s, being .25 tons but being able to carry up to .4 tons). That aside, any of the .5 tonners are just wrong.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1010 on: 08 August 2022, 15:53:19 »
all suits are considered one ton each for transport under TW rules so every squad will have CAR3 (elemenal Un) through CAR6 (WoB/CS Level I)

Official weight is 400kg per suit for the Nightshade and Tornado (see the weight breakdown in TRO 3075) so those need to be slightly adjusted. PA(L) runs from 80kg to 400kg per suit (TM p161). Light starts at 401kg

A few specific weights per suit
Nighthawk Mk XXI - 400
Nighthawk Mk XXII - 400
Tornado G12 - 390
Tornado G13 (SLas) - 400
Tornado G13 (Flamer) - 350
Tornado G13 (MGun/GrLncher/David LGR) - 300
Tornado G14 - 400

Aerie (standard) - 390

« Last Edit: 08 August 2022, 16:14:21 by Sartris »

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1011 on: 08 August 2022, 16:45:33 »
Infantry BVs are currently under construction
Safe to assume C-Bill costs are under construction for them, too?

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1012 on: 08 August 2022, 16:56:16 »
c-bills in general, yeah.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1013 on: 09 August 2022, 01:21:55 »
Just make up a number for your own c-bill costs, it will make more sense.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1014 on: 09 August 2022, 01:27:42 »
that's hammer's department. i definitely don't think about it

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1015 on: 09 August 2022, 02:22:14 »
Jihad Turning Points: Luthien provides record sheets for the Vincent Mk. 39, Baron, Carson, and Black Lion warships, however these units are listed on the MUL as not having a record sheet or BV or alpha strike statistics at all.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1016 on: 09 August 2022, 14:18:05 »
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6837/hauptmann-ha1-ot
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7619/nightstar-nsr-9j-holt
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7309/highlander-hgn-732-jorgensson
These should have technology as Mixed.

The Hauptmann T has Clan UAC/20s, Holt has Clan LPL and Gauss rifles, Jorgensson has some Clan weapons.
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Sartris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1017 on: 09 August 2022, 16:10:24 »
Jihad Turning Points: Luthien provides record sheets for the Vincent Mk. 39, Baron, Carson, and Black Lion warships, however these units are listed on the MUL as not having a record sheet or BV or alpha strike statistics at all.

added BV and record sheet for the vincent, baron, and carson. the black lion (2691) lists its RS source as the BC exclusive version of JTP: Atreus and has a different BV there. will consult with the MUL Aerospace Mafia™

The AS values are out of whack and need revisiting.

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6837/hauptmann-ha1-ot
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7619/nightstar-nsr-9j-holt
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7309/highlander-hgn-732-jorgensson
These should have technology as Mixed.

The Hauptmann T has Clan UAC/20s, Holt has Clan LPL and Gauss rifles, Jorgensson has some Clan weapons.

Fixed

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1018 on: 10 August 2022, 09:35:38 »
the black lion (2691) lists its RS source as the BC exclusive version of JTP: Atreus and has a different BV there. will consult with the MUL Aerospace Mafia
Might be good to give the source that is actually available instead of exclusive content out of reach for the last decade...
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1019 on: 10 August 2022, 12:38:27 »
i'm guessing the last time anyone cared about the sourcing of this particular unit was when BC was operational.

i've changed it over