Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST

[Empyrus]

Noticed that the Raven 3L and 4L have Striker and Scout roles, respectively. That seems somewhat odd, shouldn't the 3L be a scout? Older version of Campaign Operations notes the Raven as a scout specifically.
Same applies to the 1X, and perhaps even the 4LC (doesn't have probe but pretty much the point man for a C3 unit).

[nckestrel]

Noticed that the Raven 3L and 4L have Striker and Scout roles, respectively. That seems somewhat odd, shouldn't the 3L be a scout? Older version of Campaign Operations notes the Raven as a scout specifically.
Same applies to the 1X, and perhaps even the 4LC (doesn't have probe but pretty much the point man for a C3 unit).

Very true.  Changes made.

[Kerfuffin(925)]

Iron Cheetah seems to have ilClan availability. not sure if thats meant to be seen yet.

[Sartris]

it is

[Kerfuffin(925)]

it is

sweet. truly moving forward

[Sartris]

in very limited circumstances. we ran into the timing problem that the interest expressed in the recguides for the Iron Cheetah wouldn't have seen delivery until after the conquest of terra. there may yet be more added (eg we who do the lists are not privy to the future of the jags). we'll all have to wait and see together

we only know slightly more than the public. we await the shape of things moving into the mid 3150s as eagerly as everyone else

[Max Headromm]

The Skill Calculation Tool (http://masterunitlist.info/Tools/Skill) is not up to date. It uses the old, un-errata'ed values for calculating BV.
According to the errata document from June 2021, changing the skill values to 3/4 should increase BV by 1.32. The calculator increases BV according to the old formula by factor 1.38.

[Empyrus]

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2664/raven-rvn-3l
TRO 3050U (pg 30) notes that the Raven was exported to the Draconis Combine as well as the Free Worlds League. Unless the intent is that this refers to the 3M model (which lacks fluff), then perhaps the 3L availability should be amended to include the Draconis Combine in Clan Invasion and/or Civil War eras?

Though i cannot say i've ever seen anything to indicate the Dracs ever made use of the Raven except this line.

[Sartris]

The Skill Calculation Tool (http://masterunitlist.info/Tools/Skill) is not up to date. It uses the old, un-errata'ed values for calculating BV.
According to the errata document from June 2021, changing the skill values to 3/4 should increase BV by 1.32. The calculator increases BV according to the old formula by factor 1.38.

I will bring this to the Brain Trust, thanks

[Zeruel]

should the faction availability for the Warhawk F list the Raven Alliance in the Dark Ages? all other configs only have the Scorpions listed

[Sartris]

No, it should not. What happened was I had to remove like eight things for three eras for each variant and on that one I nicked the Impreio instead of the Ravens

fixed

[GreekFire]

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2664/raven-rvn-3l
TRO 3050U (pg 30) notes that the Raven was exported to the Draconis Combine as well as the Free Worlds League. Unless the intent is that this refers to the 3M model (which lacks fluff)...

That's the intent, yeah.

[Adacas]

Question, I have a doubt, the Longbow OW2 and 10K designs are named as they are still operational in the Periphery and that the 10K is a design that appears in the Periphery behind Lyra's back (The UCA / 20 version), these designs should be categorized as General Periphery or other category

Thank you in advance

[GreekFire]

Question, I have a doubt, the Longbow OW2 and 10K designs are named as they are still operational in the Periphery and that the 10K is a design that appears in the Periphery behind Lyra's back (The UCA / 20 version), these designs should be categorized as General Periphery or other category

Thank you in advance

0W2: the text her is somewhat vague, which allows for a range of interpretation. The 0W2 was made to follow the 0W's extant availabilities, while the 8C was made to follow the 7Q's. This means the more durable 7Q/8C has persisted in Periphery hands, while the more fragile 0W/0W2 have either been lost to attrition or upgraded via the 10C refit package.

10K: The Periphery General faction felt too generalized for a BattleMech that mainly appears in the Lyran Periphery. If we one day have a Timbuktu Collection/Rim Territories/Minor Periphery faction, the 10K will end up on it.

[Adacas]

0W2: the text her is somewhat vague, which allows for a range of interpretation. The 0W2 was made to follow the 0W's extant availabilities, while the 8C was made to follow the 7Q's. This means the more durable 7Q/8C has persisted in Periphery hands, while the more fragile 0W/0W2 have either been lost to attrition or upgraded via the 10C refit package.

10K: The Periphery General faction felt too generalized for a BattleMech that mainly appears in the Lyran Periphery. If we one day have a Timbuktu Collection/Rim Territories/Minor Periphery faction, the 10K will end up on it.

Thanks for the prompt response Greekfire, regarding your answer it would be said that the OW and OW2 versions are close to their disappearance due to being modernized or taken to a Refit modification perhaps like the OH or even the 10K.

Since we are and continuing with the way of saying things about the Shadow Hawk IIC it says more or less than the basic models like the basic one and version 2 as they are very widespread in the Inner Sphere, what does it cover? To the Successor States? Or does it also include Mercs and Minor Factions?

Thanks again

[Sartris]

The Shadow Hawk IIC has proliferated widely in the Inner Sphere. The original has been supplemented by myriad variants, but it is still common.

It's Inner Sphere General. The Inner Sphere General list page tells you what that includes.

Star League: Capellan Confederation, Draconis Combine, Federated Suns, Free Worlds League, Lyran Commonwealth.

Early Succession War: Capellan Confederation, ComStar, Draconis Combine, Federated Suns, Free Worlds League, Lyran Commonwealth.

Late Succession War - LosTech: Capellan Confederation, ComStar, Draconis Combine, Federated Suns, Free Worlds League, Lyran Commonwealth.

Late Succession War - Renaissance: Capellan Confederation, ComStar, Draconis Combine, Federated Suns, Free Rasalhague Republic, Free Worlds League, Lyran Commonwealth, St. Ives Compact.

Clan Invasion: Capellan Confederation, ComStar, Draconis Combine, Federated Commonwealth, Federated Suns, Free Rasalhague Republic, Free Worlds League, Lyran Alliance, Lyran Commonwealth, St. Ives Compact, Star League (Second), Word of Blake.

Civil War: Capellan Confederation, ComStar, Draconis Combine, Federated Commonwealth, Federated Suns, Free Rasalhague Republic, Free Worlds League, Lyran Alliance, St. Ives Compact, Star League (Second), Word of Blake.

Jihad: Capellan Confederation, ComStar, Draconis Combine, Federated Suns, Filtvelt Coalition, Free Rasalhague Republic, Free Worlds League, Lyran Alliance, Word of Blake.

Republic: Capellan Confederation, Draconis Combine, Federated Suns, Free Worlds League breakaway states, Lyran Commonwealth, Republic of the Sphere.

Dark Age: Capellan Confederation, Draconis Combine, Federated Suns, Free Worlds League (and its various break away states), Lyran Commonwealth, Republic of the Sphere.

If you don't see something on that list for that era, or isn't given a specific mention (like Mercs), it doesn't have an access level high enough to be worth noting.

[Adacas]

It's Inner Sphere General. The Inner Sphere General list page tells you what that includes.

If you don't see something on that list for that era, or isn't given a specific mention (like Mercs), it doesn't have an access level high enough to be worth noting.

Thanks again for the prompt response, I was doubting who it was and who was not, everything clarified

[S.gage]

Hello,

I performed a unit search with the search filters (link):

Type = BattleMech
Subtype = OmniMech
Production Era = Early (1) and Late (2) Succession Wars
Availability = Early (1) and Late (2) Succession Wars

At least six OmniMechs did not appear, 3x 3050 designs and 3x 3058 designs - The Summoner, the Fire Moth, the Kit Fox, the Cauldron-Born, the Nobori-Nin, and the Hankyu.

Thanks!

S.gage

[Sartris]

Clan units that debuted prior to 2901 have no pre invasion availability yet. It’s in the hopper

[Sartris]

messed around with this a bit.

You generally shouldn't use production era unless you specifically want units produced during that time. Doing it with availability era causes problems. Note the difference

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&Types=18&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=&SubTypes=45&AvailableEras=255&AvailableEras=256

Ok, never mind. I'm dumb - I didn't notice the offset in production (ESW/LSW-LT) vs availability (LSW-LT/LSW-R). The Hankyu, Cauldron-Born, and nobori-nin specifically aren't showing up because they're late succession wars - renaissance products. You're not asking for mechs from that time in your production search.

the classic 3050 ones aren't showing up because they don't have availability assigned pre-3050

[S.gage]

messed around with this a bit.

You generally shouldn't use production era unless you specifically want units produced during that time. Doing it with availability era causes problems. Note the difference

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=&HasBV=false&MinTons=&MaxTons=&MinBV=&MaxBV=&MinIntro=&MaxIntro=&MinCost=&MaxCost=&HasBFAbility=&MinPV=&MaxPV=&Types=18&BookAuto=&FactionAuto=&SubTypes=45&AvailableEras=255&AvailableEras=256

Ok, never mind. I'm dumb - I didn't notice the offset in production (ESW/LSW-LT) vs availability (LSW-LT/LSW-R). The Hankyu, Cauldron-Born, and nobori-nin specifically aren't showing up because they're late succession wars - renaissance products. You're not asking for mechs from that time in your production search.

the classic 3050 ones aren't showing up because they don't have availability assigned pre-3050

I think I understand. Are you saying the Hankyu (3037) was rarely deployed in the Clan Homeworlds before the REVIVAL Trials, while the Cauldron-Born (3047) and the Nobori-Nin (3049) were introduced so close to the Invasion, that all three effectively debuted in Draconis Combine space? And/or maybe without knowing Outbound Light was about to arrive, they were too rare because their production had yet to be ramped up?

A lot of scenarios could explain their absence from the MUL before 3050. Thanks Sartis!

[nckestrel]

I think I understand. Are you saying the Hankyu (3037) was rarely deployed in the Clan Homeworlds before the REVIVAL Trials, while the Cauldron-Born (3047) and the Nobori-Nin (3049) were introduced so close to the Invasion, that all three effectively debuted in Draconis Combine space? And/or maybe without knowing Outbound Light was about to arrive, they were too rare because their production had yet to be ramped up?

A lot of scenarios could explain their absence from the MUL before 3050. Thanks Sartis!

He's saying you searched for units with
Production Era = Early (1) and Late (2) Succession Wars
But you selected Late Succession Wars - LosTech (-3019), and didn't include Late Succession Wars - Rennaisance (3020-3049).  Therefore your search excluded any units that had an intro date of 3020-3049.
Hankyu, Cauldron-Born and Nobori-nin have availabilities listed for Late Succession Wars- Renaissance.

[Sartris]

Essentially you’re asking the MUL to display units that only existed before those three were introduced. If you add Late Succession Wars - Renaissance to the production era query they’ll appear.

[Empyrus]

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6401/avalanche-avl-1or

The Avalanche R and N configs are labeled as Advanced, but i don't think they have anything that isn't Standard/TL stuff by 3133.

[mordel]

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/6401/avalanche-avl-1or

The Avalanche R and N configs are labeled as Advanced, but i don't think they have anything that isn't Standard/TL stuff by 3133.

You are correct. Latest thing that switched to Standard/TL was Mixed Technology itself, and even that was ~3114. I've updated both to be Standard.

[S.gage]

He's saying you searched for units with
Production Era = Early (1) and Late (2) Succession Wars
But you selected Late Succession Wars - LosTech (-3019), and didn't include Late Succession Wars - Rennaisance (3020-3049).  Therefore your search excluded any units that had an intro date of 3020-3049.
Hankyu, Cauldron-Born and Nobori-nin have availabilities listed for Late Succession Wars- Renaissance.

Essentially you’re asking the MUL to display units that only existed before those three were introduced. If you add Late Succession Wars - Renaissance to the production era query they’ll appear.

Sorry for wasting your time with those three, I thought I had the right filters. I’ll try to be more careful! Thanks
S.gage

[Empyrus]

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Filter?Name=avatar
The Avatar has some inconsistent availabilities depending on the era.
For example, during the Clan Invasion, the Kell Hounds, Wolf's Dragoons and mercs have access to the Avatar primary and A configurations, but not the B or later ones, even those debuting in 3056.

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7926/hatamoto-kaze-htm-27v2
The Hatamoto-kaze 27V2 is an odd case of "3150NTNU" 'Mech being listed in MUL even though it doesn't have record sheet, unlike the few released via IWM. Is this on purpose? Should it be hidden from public?
It is harmless to be sure, just wondering because it is an oddity.


Also, is there improvements planned to mobile version of MUL? In practice i always end up toggling desktop version, though on positive note that feels quite usable on phone.
Specific issues:
Searching lacks filters beyond "basic" and technology.
Inability to sort faction lists by name or anything else.

[Empyrus]

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3381/valkyrie-vlk-qw5
BV needs to be corrected to account for errata:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/errata/record-sheets-3085-unabridged/msg276085/#msg276085

I get 701BV in SSW after matching errata.

EDIT Right, figures i forgot something latest normal release, 0.7.6.

Xotl: Please include your SSW version number for reports like these.  Thanks!

[jasonf]

I've moved on to the Jihad era rabbit hole of TRO/production research, and I think I found the following errata...

Clint: Looks like the following two Clint models might have WOB availability on the wrong variant?
CLNT-3-3T: only has Taurian availability during Jihad era, but variant was (presumably) supplied by WOB [TR3050U]
CLNT-6S: has both Lyran and WOB availability during Jihad era, but variant was only produced at Defiance-Furillo (not WOB-controlled Hesperus II)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/649/clint-clnt-3-3t
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/651/clint-clnt-6s

Legionnaire LGN-1X: extinct in all eras. It is a prototype variant so perhaps it should be Fed Suns + Unique during the Jihad era? [TR3075]
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1862/legionnaire-lgn-1x

Trebuchet TBT-3C: should this be extinct in LSW thru Civil War eras? TR3050U calls it as such in the Variants description.
(Happy for it to be otherwise, though, as it makes a nice Tukayyid campaign addition...)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3295/trebuchet-tbt-3c

Flashman FLS-9B: Should Intro date be 3068 or 3070? Latter is consistent with Intro date of all the other WOB models produced at Defiance-Hesperus during Jihad (including sister model FLS-9M).
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1125/flashman-fls-9b

Ostscout OTT-10CS: This should probably have availability for FRR during Jihad era and likely Rasalhague Dominion during Early Republic era (rather than extinction), according to Variant description for OTT-11J in TR3085 (and production at Odin Mfg in Obj: Clans, p.36)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2364/ostscout-ott-10cs

Archer ARC-2Rb: I think this should have WOB availability during Jihad era, according to Rec Guide 10 (p.6)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/75/archer-arc-2rb

Wolverine WVR-9W and WVR-9W2: Something seems off in the timing of Intro dates relative to what is described in the -9W2 fluff in TR3085, so I am not sure exactly what the correct errata is. The current Intro dates are 3077 for the WOB -9W and 3084 for the DCMS -9W2, but TRO lists the (WOB-controlled) LAW-Dieron destroyed in 3077, and the -9W2 as first a factory/field refit created towards the end of the Jihad (and used during OP: SCOUR) and then produced from 3084 forward. It doesn't seem that the "field refit" referred to in the fluff would be the -9W either, because that variant has C3i.
My guess would be:
WVR-9W: Intro date < 3077 (i.e., before fall of Dieron)
WVR-9W2: Intro date 3077 or 3078
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3583/wolverine-wvr-9w
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3584/wolverine-wvr-9w2

Tamerlane Strike Sled (flamer) and Strike Sled 2: Based on their record sheets, I think both of these should have Tech = Introductory?
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3156/tamerlane-strike-sled-flamer
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3159/tamerlane-strike-sled-2

JI-100 Transportable FRU: Should this be a support vehicle rather than a combat vehicle? Seems like it based on the order it appears in TR:3085, and based on classification of related JI-50.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1706/ji-100-transportable-field-repair-unit-standard

Condor Hover Tank (Upgrade) (Laser): This has wider availability than the standard Condor (Upgrade), but fluff in TR3075 suggests they should probably have the same availabilities since both are produced/sold at the same place (and fluff seems consistent with either one).
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/684/condor-heavy-hover-tank-upgrade-laser

[Sartris]

Oh hey, welcome back. I'll address the easy stuff here and then we'll have to stew on some of the others. These were drawn up quite a long time ago so some searching of the email archives will probably be necessary

CLNT-3-3T: only has Taurian availability during Jihad era, but variant was (presumably) supplied by WOB [TR3050U]

Not where they got them from. It's correct as-is. 6U is worth a look

Legionnaire LGN-1X: extinct in all eras. It is a prototype variant so perhaps it should be Fed Suns + Unique during the Jihad era? [TR3075]
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1862/legionnaire-lgn-1x

yeah, seems that way.

"the idea was scrapped after the LGN-1X prototypes suffered numerous catastrophic systems failures" - they would have to exist in limited numbers to have the problems

Trebuchet TBT-3C: should this be extinct in LSW thru Civil War eras? TR3050U calls it as such in the Variants description.
(Happy for it to be otherwise, though, as it makes a nice Tukayyid campaign addition...)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3295/trebuchet-tbt-3c

Looks like Wolfnet didn't know about ComStar's stash

Flashman FLS-9B: Should Intro date be 3068 or 3070? Latter is consistent with Intro date of all the other WOB models produced at Defiance-Hesperus during Jihad (including sister model FLS-9M).
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1125/flashman-fls-9b

hmmm. 3068 would be a neat trick as the wobbies were only raiding the planet at the time.

Ostscout OTT-10CS: This should probably have availability for FRR during Jihad era and likely Rasalhague Dominion during Early Republic era (rather than extinction), according to Variant description for OTT-11J in TR3085 (and production at Odin Mfg in Obj: Clans, p.36)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2364/ostscout-ott-10cs

this has merit

Archer ARC-2Rb: I think this should have WOB availability during Jihad era, according to Rec Guide 10 (p.6)
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/75/archer-arc-2rb

Sneaky insert

Wolverine WVR-9W and WVR-9W2: Something seems off in the timing of Intro dates relative to what is described in the -9W2 fluff in TR3085, so I am not sure exactly what the correct errata is. The current Intro dates are 3077 for the WOB -9W and 3084 for the DCMS -9W2, but TRO lists the (WOB-controlled) LAW-Dieron destroyed in 3077, and the -9W2 as first a factory/field refit created towards the end of the Jihad (and used during OP: SCOUR) and then produced from 3084 forward. It doesn't seem that the "field refit" referred to in the fluff would be the -9W either, because that variant has C3i.
My guess would be:
WVR-9W: Intro date < 3077 (i.e., before fall of Dieron)
WVR-9W2: Intro date 3077 or 3078
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3583/wolverine-wvr-9w
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3584/wolverine-wvr-9w2

There seems to be a discrepancy. Will consult.

Tamerlane Strike Sled (flamer) and Strike Sled 2: Based on their record sheets, I think both of these should have Tech = Introductory?
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3156/tamerlane-strike-sled-flamer
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/3159/tamerlane-strike-sled-2

Indeed so. Fixed

JI-100 Transportable FRU: Should this be a support vehicle rather than a combat vehicle? Seems like it based on the order it appears in TR:3085, and based on classification of related JI-50.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/1706/ji-100-transportable-field-repair-unit-standard

The record sheet and design both are for a combat vehicle so would have to be redesigned.

Condor Hover Tank (Upgrade) (Laser): This has wider availability than the standard Condor (Upgrade), but fluff in TR3075 suggests they should probably have the same availabilities since both are produced/sold at the same place (and fluff seems consistent with either one).
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/684/condor-heavy-hover-tank-upgrade-laser

added to the consult list