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Author Topic: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST  (Read 94199 times)

Guardian11

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1110 on: 25 September 2022, 00:26:29 »
I'm not sure if this is the sort of feedback that should be provided, if it's not do what you will with it and sorry for the bother. With that out of the way it seems to me that the Clan Protectorate should have access to the Hankyu (Arctic Cheetah) in their ilClan Mech list. For 2 major reasons:

The first and what I consider the most compelling is that Recognition Guide 21 specifically mentioned the Arctic Cheetah J participating in the Battle for Marik that helped create the Clan Protectorate. It seems like if the forces that invaded Marik and would become the Clan Protectorate had enough Arctic Cheetahs to get one of the configs they were using in the battle listed as a standard configuration, and with the Sea Foxes having access to their production it should still be about as common during the ilClan era as it was during the Battle of Marik.

The second reason is that in the Dark Age the Republic of the Sphere, the Nova Cats, and the Sea Foxes all have the Hankyu in their force lists. Considering all 3 of those factions are major components of the Clan Protectorate, it stands to reason that the Hankyu should be on the Clan Protectorate force list. Also, shipping Hankyus from their factories in the Combine should be no less convenient than shipping Mist Lynxes from the Chainlaine Cluster, which is on the Clan Protectorate force list.

The reason I even bring this up is because I was rather surprised to not see the Hankyu on the Clan Protectorate RAT and MUL for the above reasons.

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1111 on: 25 September 2022, 09:29:31 »
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aFtnd12wcR7UhVB-5OaMGIi4ppgJBMJJNmIH5KRBYGE/edit?usp=sharing

83 mechs with artemis discrepancies.
you can view the Spreadsheet via the drive or make a copy of the data or whatever you need to do.

These have all been verified and updated. Thanks for reporting them!

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1112 on: 26 September 2022, 03:38:51 »
Mastodon A seems to have some damage discrepancies at medium and long range. It seems Mordel is doing some rounding it shouldn’t.

Code: [Select]

Determine Medium Range Damage Value
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Heat Efficiency:               Unit is efficient                                                                                 
     34 (Heat Sinks)                                                                                                      =       34
     2 (Movement) + 36 (Weapons) - 4 (Base)                                                                 (-)       34  =        0
                                                                                                                                   
  Offensive Equipment:                                                                                                    =    0.000
     Large Pulse Laser                                                                                      (+)    1.100  =    1.100
     Large Pulse Laser                                                                                      (+)    1.100  =    2.200
     Large Pulse Laser                                                                                      (+)    1.100  =    3.300
     LRM 15 w/ Artemis IV FCS                                                                               (+)    1.200  =    4.500
     Gauss Rifle                                                                                            (+)    1.500  =    6.000
                                                                                                                                   
  Heat-modified damage value:                                                                                                       
     Damage subtotal rounded up to the nearest tenth                                                                      =      6.0
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Final Medium Range Damage Value:                                                                                               7.0   


That is the medium bracket calculation, long range is exactly the same. Short range isn’t affected, the Gauss minimum range already causes it to round up to 6.

Exactly 6.0 shouldn’t round up to 7. So it’s long and medium range needs to come down, which should knock 3 points off (not sure on points, but roughly 3)
« Last Edit: 26 September 2022, 03:42:02 by Kerfuffin(925) »
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Greatclub

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1113 on: 26 September 2022, 03:54:00 »
Kraken has been around since 2827, but didn't have users until the clan invasion era?

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1114 on: 26 September 2022, 04:26:53 »
I noticed this on in mordel when playing with customs and only now could think of a canon mech it might effect. Streak LRM 5s are counted as 3 heat rather than 2.

I believe this leads to some wonky-ness in the damage and overheat calculations of the Adder L. I am not exactly sure how it will end up.
It seems to me it’s corrected damage, after calculating heat, at short range should be 3.13 for a end value of 4. Medium should likewise go up from 2.519/3 to 2.956/3. It might not be enough for a damage bump at medium but I don’t know enough about the conversion and overheat rules to say if OV should stay or not.

Tl,dr: Streak LRM 5s are messed up heat wise, check out the Adder L



I don’t think there are enough other canon designs with Streak LRM 5s for this to be a widespread problem like Artemis. Doing a brief search there are 8 units with streak LRM 5s. And none of them seem like they’d qualify for any changes with the adjusted heat values. Only other one worth checking is the Huntsman T
« Last Edit: 26 September 2022, 04:34:00 by Kerfuffin(925) »
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Gribbly

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1115 on: 26 September 2022, 07:17:52 »
Were there some changes to the Wolf Empire vs Clan Wolf MUL's for the Dark Ages era?

Sartris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1116 on: 26 September 2022, 11:10:01 »
Kraken has been around since 2827, but didn't have users until the clan invasion era?

as has been noted, a non-zero number of clan units have not been assigned pre-invasion availabilities. this is an ongoing (and slow) process since MadCapellan is likely one of the only people alive with the knowledge and resources necessary to compile the information. his heroic work continues.

pokefan548

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1117 on: 26 September 2022, 11:15:41 »
Related to this thread, the MUL shows the Society as having access to conventional infantry points of the standard Clan structure. Does this mean that Society platoons use the same 5/5 platoon structure as the Clans, or are those units simply included as a stand-in out of convenience and/or lack of better faction-specific option?
Think this question got lost in the pile, hope you don't mind if I bring it back up.
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mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1118 on: 26 September 2022, 19:58:24 »
Mastodon A seems to have some damage discrepancies at medium and long range. It seems Mordel is doing some rounding it shouldn’t.

This is a known bug I already have flagged for a fix on my site. When I implement the fix, I'll recalculate all units and update the impacted ones on the MUL accordingly.

I noticed this on in mordel when playing with customs and only now could think of a canon mech it might effect. Streak LRM 5s are counted as 3 heat rather than 2.

This is errata. ASC actually lists it as 3, which is wrong. I'll post errata for it and enter a bug for my site to change the value and recalculate the affected units.

Heavyguard

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1119 on: 27 September 2022, 13:44:52 »
Rattlesnake JR7-31 - Intro date of 3042 conflicts with Guardian ECM intro date of 3045.

Rattlesnake JR7-31P - Intro date of 3043 conflicts with C3 Slave intro date of 3050.

Availability era of both (Late Succession Wars) also conflicts with the Shrapnel-9-record-sheet.pdf era logo showing Republic era (Error on the RS likely).



carlisimo

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1120 on: 28 September 2022, 00:57:28 »
The change you guys made to (Standard) variants made me wonder - is there a way to make Prime configurations appear before A, B, etc.?  That's always driven me nuts.

Sartris

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1121 on: 28 September 2022, 06:21:13 »
Nope. That’s just how computer alphabetizing works.

Rattlesnake JR7-31 - Intro date of 3042 conflicts with Guardian ECM intro date of 3045.

Rattlesnake JR7-31P - Intro date of 3043 conflicts with C3 Slave intro date of 3050.

Availability era of both (Late Succession Wars) also conflicts with the Shrapnel-9-record-sheet.pdf era logo showing Republic era (Error on the RS likely).

Under investigation

jgodwin17

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1122 on: 28 September 2022, 13:27:50 »
Just wanted to follow up on this to see if this is as intended or an accidental omission. Thought maybe it got missed.


This is more of a question than an error, but I was looking to build some Taurians for Alpha Strike and I was kind of puzzled by their lack of infantry options. In the ilClan era they have 86 options compared to the Fronc Reaches having 106, and most of the other periphery powers having significantly more. Stuff like the Heavy Infantry Heavy Urban Reponse platoon, SpecOps Paratrooper MI6 extraction team, and a large variety of other specialist types of infantry seem to be available to literally the everyone but the Taurians/Calderon protectorate and I was wondering if that was an accidental omission?

From my understanding of the background the Taurians had the largest military of the periphery powers (not sure where the Outworlds Alliance stands after merging with Snow Raven) and it seems bizarre they wouldn’t have access to things common in most militaries like paratroopers and urban infantry units- especially when other less militaristic periphery powers do.

Thank you for your insight!

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1123 on: 28 September 2022, 13:48:35 »
The Taurians "suffer" from using a non-standard infantry platoon size.  Therefore they can't use common infantry platoons, at least that specific record sheet or AS unit card (and no Taurian version of the record sheet/AS unit card exists).  If everybody else has it, it's pretty much by definition not one the Taurians can use.
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jgodwin17

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1124 on: 28 September 2022, 22:38:44 »
The Taurians "suffer" from using a non-standard infantry platoon size.  Therefore they can't use common infantry platoons, at least that specific record sheet or AS unit card (and no Taurian version of the record sheet/AS unit card exists).  If everybody else has it, it's pretty much by definition not one the Taurians can use.

Ahh, I see. Thanks for the clarification. Based on their background I thought it was strange they wouldn’t have access to a lot of those options, but now knowing they use non-standard infantry organization, it makes a lot more sense that they wouldn’t have access to those unit listing - as they use standard infantry platoon size. So it’s not that the Taurians don’t have specialized infantry, it’s that it is structured differently from most of the Inner Sphere and periphery, which means we probably won’t see stats for that stuff unless the Taurians get Taurian specific Infantry units in a book at some point.

Thanks for the answer, I really appreciate the feedback!

Hussar2

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1125 on: 30 September 2022, 20:43:13 »
For some odd reason the Hel-1 from shrapnel 10 has disappeared from the MUL.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Source/Details/513

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1126 on: 30 September 2022, 23:19:47 »
For some odd reason the Hel-1 from shrapnel 10 has disappeared from the MUL.
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Source/Details/513

the ERS-2H has been renamed the HEL-1 since they are the same mech. the record now indicates that the name changed in 3142.

DanghenWoolf

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1127 on: 03 October 2022, 13:12:39 »
Tried to sort and search through all the pages but didn't see anything...

Suggestion: Have a dialog in the MUL force creator that allows grouping of units by a force standard (IS, ComStar, Clan) and recommend a formation type.

e.g. I have a force with three strikers and a missile boat but three have an IF1+ it could recommend a Striker/Cavalry Lance or an Artillery Fire Lance. It would make it much easier to figure out what I can make with a selection of forces rather than picking a force type and then trying to get the units to align to that.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1128 on: 04 October 2022, 08:08:21 »
CRD-1R The problem is that it has Artemis IV on all it's Missile Systems. According to the Battletech MUL, the CRD-1R Crusader is introduced in 2596 ( http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/4030/crusader-crd-1r ), but Artemis IV FCS does not enter production until 2598 (Page 206 of the TechManual).

[NCKestrel: edited non-canon information out]
 
« Last Edit: 04 October 2022, 08:33:51 by nckestrel »

nckestrel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1129 on: 04 October 2022, 08:36:56 »
The CRD-1R does not have an official record sheet, nor any description of what it has.
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Bishop Steiner

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1130 on: 04 October 2022, 11:12:54 »
The CRD-1R does not have an official record sheet, nor any description of what it has.

thank you that is what I needed to know.  Now I need to nag Ray or Randall or Jo to fix that.

jgodwin17

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1131 on: 04 October 2022, 18:52:29 »
Another Taurian question for you fine folks. Is there a reason the Taurians lose access to XCT Marine Special Support Forces during both Late Succession War Eras? I don't have access to all the books and I can't find any reason why they wouldn't have access to them during those eras, but in every era before in after.

Thank you for all your help!

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1132 on: 04 October 2022, 20:34:01 »
The MON-96 Mongoose is rated as having a Standard tech level despite having Reinforced Internal Structure and a Bloodhound Active Probe.  Tech level should be changed to Advanced.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1133 on: 05 October 2022, 08:52:13 »
Another Taurian question for you fine folks. Is there a reason the Taurians lose access to XCT Marine Special Support Forces during both Late Succession War Eras? I don't have access to all the books and I can't find any reason why they wouldn't have access to them during those eras, but in every era before in after.

Thank you for all your help!

Yes. None (or very little) of the infantry from TRO 3085 have faction data. That is why they lost it. We have no data there. If a unit doesn't have faction data for an era, assume that is the issue. If a unit shouldn't be available for an era, the extinct tag is usually used to denote that.

jgodwin17

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1134 on: 05 October 2022, 10:49:27 »
Yes. None (or very little) of the infantry from TRO 3085 have faction data. That is why they lost it. We have no data there. If a unit doesn't have faction data for an era, assume that is the issue. If a unit shouldn't be available for an era, the extinct tag is usually used to denote that.

Thanks for the response, I really appreciate it. I guess I was accustomed to see the extinct tag in places where a unit wasn't available so when I saw there was a gap in availability on this specific unit without the extinct tag I was a bit confused. Thanks again for the clarification!

mordel

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1135 on: 06 October 2022, 09:23:03 »
The MON-96 Mongoose is rated as having a Standard tech level despite having Reinforced Internal Structure and a Bloodhound Active Probe.  Tech level should be changed to Advanced.

That equipment became standard during the Dark Age era. As the MON-96 was introduced in the Dark Age, it uses the technology progression based on its Era. Therefore, Standard is the correct rules level when using the MON-96 in the Dark Age era.

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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1136 on: 07 October 2022, 08:41:29 »
Is it just me, or are the generic infantry platoon/point BVs all out of wack?
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1137 on: 07 October 2022, 08:56:54 »
Is it just me, or are the generic infantry platoon/point BVs all out of wack?

They need an update, yes.
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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1138 on: 08 October 2022, 15:54:51 »
Ok, after 2+ years of researching just about all units on the MUL for fun, I think I'm finally done...  :o xp
Here's the last batch of potential errata I found. Mostly for post-Jihad aerospace.

Most likely errata:
1. Cheetah F11-R -- missing FWL availability during Clan Invasion era
2. Stingray F-94 -- the availability switches between Tamarind and Oriente, so either Tamarind in Early-Rep or Oriente in Late-Rep is in error
3. Shikra SKR-4M -- The tech rules should be Mixed (IS) (has Clan UACs) [TR3150]
4. Tatsu MIKJ-0F -- delete Early-Rep era availability (Intro date = 3130)
5. Lancer LX-3 -- should Jihad era availability be FWL instead of MSC?
6. Tomahawk C -- listed as both "Extinct" and IS Clan General in ilClan era
7. Aquila AQA-1M -- delete Early-Rep era availability (Intro date = 3104)
8. Shuttle ST-46 -- IS Clan General in Early-Rep era should likely be Periphery General
9. Nagasawa DS -- not technically errata, but can likely consolidate the faction availabilities to just list IS Clan General (except ilClan era, which technically only excludes SLDF Jags)
10. Trutzberg DS -- tech rules should be Advanced (has LTIII arty, ELRM) [TR3150]

Here are ones that likely need some research:
11. Planetlifter Air Transport Wakusei no Mochiagerumono -- I think DA + ilClan availability should stay DC (not FS). It's produced on Tiflin as of 3079 [Obj: DC], which doesn't change ownership as far I can tell
12. Is the standard Claymore DS produced after 3086? If so, I think the RotS should have availability for Early-Rep, Late-Rep, and DA eras. If not, JF, AML, and SLDF JF likely do not have access in DA or ilClan eras
13. Should Raven Alliance have the following availabilities (not clear since some FM fluff suggests they may have shut some lines down; all produced at UOC in 3079 [Obj: Clans]):
--LSF Angel (standard or upgrade)
--Mechbuster CF (standard, they have access to LBx version from Late-Rep forward)
--Seydlitz Z1, Z4 in Early-Rep through ilClan
14. Should Tomahawk 63CS ilClan availability also/instead be SLDF Wolves (and Mercs)? (produced at Wangaker Aero/Mars [TRO3055U])
15. Should Capellans have Overlord A3 from DA forward (and perhaps earlier)? Allegedly produced at Rashpur-Owens/Capella [FM3145, p. 28]
16. Aqueduct Liquid Carrier -- should Ghost Bears/Ras. Dominion have access from Jihad era forward? (produced at Alshain NY in 3079 [Obj: Clans])
17. Should RotS have access to the following two DropShips for Early-Rep through Dark Age? (presumably produced at Shipil-Skye since JF gets access to both):
--Union-X (3071) DS
--Overlord (3056) DS

More from the migratory habits of Alaric Ward...
18. Should Wolf Empire have access to the following units that are likely produced at Shipil-Skye? (based on JF availabilities currently on MUL and the fact that the Wolves take Skye in 3150):
--LSF Owl, LSF Owl III CFs (potentially missing for both JF and Wolves)
--Lucifer III LCR-3 -- alternatively, neither Wolf nor JF should have based on Lucifer III C fluff in TR3150-NTNU (line is upgraded to variant with no record sheet)
--Ares Attack Mk IX (potentially missing for both JF and Wolves, based on Obj: LA and TRO3085),
--"other small craft" (latter based on Obj: LA)
--Battle Taxi NL-42
--Claymore V3 DS (and perhaps standard Claymore DS?)
--Overlord A3 DS (for Wolf Empire, SLDF Wolves have access)
19. Should Wolf Empire (and perhaps SLDF Wolves) have access to Guitierrez Aero/Trellisane production in DA and ilClan eras? (Wolf Empire controls since 3040)
--HSF Meteor G CF
--Stingray F-95
--Lancer LX-2, LX-2A, LX-3


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Re: Master Unit List (MUL) Feedback Thread III - READ THE FIRST POST
« Reply #1139 on: 09 October 2022, 13:01:06 »
Just a note that using the objectives series for anything post-3100 is a tenuous way to predict manufacturing. There are things happening and due to the paucity of published products for that era, very little is public