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Author Topic: How did The Clans get the Jenner?  (Read 1509 times)

Zraver

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How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« on: 21 October 2021, 13:16:02 »
Famously, the Jenner is the only non-SLDF design to show up with IIC status. How and why did the clans get the Jenner in the first place since its introduction year was the same year that Kerensky lead the SLDF off into the deep unknown. There are two possibilities.

First, maybe Kerensky himself simply took one or some. 

1:The Jenner was introduced in 2784 and initially produced on Ozawa and Luthien, by Luthien Armor Works (LAW). However, it is entirely possible and actually exceedingly likely that it was prototyped for years before that.

2: The Exodus assembly point was New Samarkand where 2a: The Sun Zhang Academy had its campus and who else to better develop the tactics of a light striker and raider mech. There is also a LAW facility there who might have had the plans and or parts especially if they were supporting the Sun Zhang Academy in testing and doctrine development. 2b: We know the SLDF touched down on New Samarkand physically to loot the two SLDF bases there. 2c: We know this included mechs because this was were Kerensky jettisoned his worn out Orion.

3: The route from the Terra to New Samarkand passed close by Ozawa* home of one of the Jenner factories. Many other SLDF units had to travel from across the Inner Sphere and may well have passed close to Luthien or a planet where Jenners were being tested. In fact initially, Minoru Kurita thought the SLDF movements were an invasion aimed at getting retribution for his helping the Usurper.

So there is a chance that Kerensky encountered a Jenner prototype, maybe even saw initial reports of its performance in testing and "liberated" a few. But there is another option, possibly more likely in fact.

The second option is either of the Dragoon supply runs. Sarna lists the production date of the Jenner IIC as 3042. The last dragoon supply run was in 3016 ( the Jenner arriving in the home world in 3011 or 3018). While they had not yet served, or warred against the Dragon it is likely they encountered a Jenner at some point in fights against house and/or mercenary units. Capturing and delivering to The Clans the only light mech the The Clans did not have details on, and the only one able to pose a reasonable to challenge to many clan light mechs would be just the type of intelligence the Dragoons were sent to gather. A date of 3011 or 3018 allows time to reverse engineer, improve and begin production in 3042.

* Sarna lists Ozawa as both a Fed Suns planet in 2783 and a Jenner factory from no later than 2796.

Empyrus

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #1 on: 21 October 2021, 13:20:09 »
Just so you know, this was answered in RecGuide Vol 18.
The Wolf's Dragoons brought isorla Jenners during their second supply run, which the Nova Cats promptly claimed and designed the Jenner IIC.
The Star League-in-exile did have few prototype Jenners when they left but those all were lost in the Operation Klondike.
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Grognard

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #2 on: 21 October 2021, 13:22:49 »
I'm more inclined to vote for a "Liberated" Jenner during the Exodus.
either from a factory storage yard or a resupply dump.

But without a canon statement, all we can do is speculate.

nevermind me.  thanks Empyrus for the referenced information.

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Zraver

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #3 on: 21 October 2021, 21:31:20 »
Just so you know, this was answered in RecGuide Vol 18.
The Wolf's Dragoons brought isorla Jenners during their second supply run, which the Nova Cats promptly claimed and designed the Jenner IIC.
The Star League-in-exile did have few prototype Jenners when they left but those all were lost in the Operation Klondike.

Thanks for the answer. Glad to see I wasn't off base with my reasoning.

StrOf10kBabies

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #4 on: 25 October 2021, 19:58:35 »
That's interesting. I'd like to know more of the origin stories on how the Marauder became the Marauder IIC, the Warhammer became the Warhammer IIC, and the Rifleman into the Rifleman IIC. The Rifleman IIC especially since it sounds like Smoke Jaguars are the ones that came up with the original prime configuration, but was spotted by Nova Cat forces. I'd also like to know if there is any significance as of why Phillip Drummond was pictured with a Rifleman IIC, unless that is going with the whole logic of clan Nova Cat favoring mechs that are not reliant of supply lines after their defeat in Tukayyid.

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #5 on: 25 October 2021, 20:19:14 »
now that I've thought about it: my newest head canon of how the Clans obtained the Jenner:

"CRAZY LARRY'S USED BATTLEMECH EMPORIUM"
-All the power, most of the armor, half the Price!

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Cannonshop

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #6 on: 28 October 2021, 10:58:49 »
now that I've thought about it: my newest head canon of how the Clans obtained the Jenner:

"CRAZY LARRY'S USED BATTLEMECH EMPORIUM"
-All the power, most of the armor, half the Price!

No, no, no, it's Discount Dan's slightly used 'mech emporium!!  (I can't remember the full text of the ad, but he does strike me as the kind of guy who'd fit well into a Clan's merchant caste...at least until they decide he's a Bandit-Caste and execute him.)
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #7 on: 29 October 2021, 00:06:08 »
His prices are so insane, he has to fight a Trial of Grievances against himself for every sale.
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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #8 on: 29 October 2021, 00:26:08 »
That's interesting. I'd like to know more of the origin stories on how the Marauder became the Marauder IIC, the Warhammer became the Warhammer IIC, and the Rifleman into the Rifleman IIC. The Rifleman IIC especially since it sounds like Smoke Jaguars are the ones that came up with the original prime configuration, but was spotted by Nova Cat forces. I'd also like to know if there is any significance as of why Phillip Drummond was pictured with a Rifleman IIC, unless that is going with the whole logic of clan Nova Cat favoring mechs that are not reliant of supply lines after their defeat in Tukayyid.

The 'IIc' variations are so named because the Inner Sphere noticed a remarkably different version of a 'Mech they recognized. To the Clans it's not a Warhammer IIc, it's just a Warhammer -- continually upgraded/iterated on throughout their time in Clan space.

So basically the answer to 'how did the Xxxxx become the Xxxx IIc' is: the instant it encountered Inner Sphere forces (or, maybe more accurately -- as soon as ComStar observed it).

EDIT: I think I misread your post, and you're after some info/fleshing out of the actual story of the upgrade itself.
« Last Edit: 29 October 2021, 00:32:50 by Bren »

Mendrugo

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #9 on: 29 October 2021, 03:47:27 »
Just so you know, this was answered in RecGuide Vol 18.
The Wolf's Dragoons brought isorla Jenners during their second supply run, which the Nova Cats promptly claimed and designed the Jenner IIC.
The Star League-in-exile did have few prototype Jenners when they left but those all were lost in the Operation Klondike.

They can't all have been lost in Operation Klondike - one shows up in "Betrayal of Ideals" in the final mopping up against the Wolverines.
"We have made of New Avalon a towering funeral pyre and wiped the Davion scourge from the universe.  Tikonov, Chesterton and Andurien are ours once more, and the cheers of the Capellan people nearly drown out the gnashing of our foes' teeth as they throw down their weapons in despair.  Now I am made First Lord of the Star League, and all shall bow down to me and pay homa...oooooo! Shiny thing!" - Maximillian Liao, "My Triumph", audio dictation, 3030.  Unpublished.

JadeHellbringer

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #10 on: 29 October 2021, 07:22:41 »
That's interesting. I'd like to know more of the origin stories on how the Marauder became the Marauder IIC, the Warhammer became the Warhammer IIC, and the Rifleman into the Rifleman IIC. The Rifleman IIC especially since it sounds like Smoke Jaguars are the ones that came up with the original prime configuration, but was spotted by Nova Cat forces. I'd also like to know if there is any significance as of why Phillip Drummond was pictured with a Rifleman IIC, unless that is going with the whole logic of clan Nova Cat favoring mechs that are not reliant of supply lines after their defeat in Tukayyid.

Since I learned the game nearly 30 years ago, even with my first book I bought for it- TRO:3055- I've struggled to figure out what conversation was had among the scientist caste of Clan Steel Viper when they decided it was time to come up with an upgrade to the Phoenix Hawk.

"OK, hear me out. Everyone is trimming weight from these things- the Shadow Hawk lost ten tons, you know? What if we pack on a few tons- what? No, not 55 tons, that would be absurd. Let's make it 80! Totally serious, why do you ask? And let's drop the weaponry for a pair of heavy autocannons! That'll be awesome! Wait, where are you going?"
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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #11 on: 29 October 2021, 11:11:06 »
Since I learned the game nearly 30 years ago, even with my first book I bought for it- TRO:3055- I've struggled to figure out what conversation was had among the scientist caste of Clan Steel Viper when they decided it was time to come up with an upgrade to the Phoenix Hawk.

"OK, hear me out. Everyone is trimming weight from these things- the Shadow Hawk lost ten tons, you know? What if we pack on a few tons- what? No, not 55 tons, that would be absurd. Let's make it 80! Totally serious, why do you ask? And let's drop the weaponry for a pair of heavy autocannons! That'll be awesome! Wait, where are you going?"
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Luciora

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #12 on: 29 October 2021, 16:28:52 »
Those boosters totally look like they should be packing some serious heat.  What do you mean it is not big enough to carry it all technician?  Well?  Fix it now.

Empyrus

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #13 on: 29 October 2021, 16:40:07 »
Since I learned the game nearly 30 years ago, even with my first book I bought for it- TRO:3055- I've struggled to figure out what conversation was had among the scientist caste of Clan Steel Viper when they decided it was time to come up with an upgrade to the Phoenix Hawk.


The Recognition Guides also shed light to this weirdness.
Basically, apparently the Star League was really interested in an assault-class recon 'Mech. Explains the Charger.
Then you have the Phoenix Hawk C which used UAC/2s for some reason. The Vapor Eagle, quite similar to the Phoenix Hawk in many ways, was made into a duelist with big guns. And finally the Steel Vipers combined these concepts in the Phoenix Hawk IIC.

That said, i don't think it really answers the question why, it just moves it back to the Star League time.
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StrOf10kBabies

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #14 on: 02 November 2021, 21:45:17 »
EDIT: I think I misread your post, and you're after some info/fleshing out of the actual story of the upgrade itself.
Pretty much what you said here. I'd like to know if there is any information between the time gap when Kerensky broke off from the SLDF to the events of the battle of Tukayyid on who invented the first Warhammer IIC, Rifleman IIC, Marauder IIC and possibly the other IIC designated mechs. Since I don't have any of the TRO books that first introduced the mechs, I was just wondering if there were more details besides what we have on Sarna on how some of these mechs came to be in the clans. I just see years like 2845, 2829, etc. with some of the home world manufacturing sites like clan Cloud Cobra owning homeworlds IE Complex H-4 producing the Rifleman IIC etc. Was it clan Cloud Cobra that invented the original prime configuration of the Rifleman IIC?

It's a shame that we only have a Comstar pov on what seems to be speculation (correct me if I'm wrong here) instead of concrete evidence on who was responsible for some of the Prime designations.

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #15 on: 02 November 2021, 22:09:31 »
Older TROs were pretty vague about origins of Clan 'Mechs. 'Cause ComStar was mostly mystified by stuff...
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Cannonshop

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #16 on: 02 November 2021, 22:40:42 »
Typically people forget that Kerensky looted most of the ongoing technical projects when he looted the Hegemony.  The Jenner IIC is an SRM boat, the Draconis Combine's Jenner uses Medium Lasers and initially came with a Large, suggesting that the parts of the library Kerensky looted weren't the same ones the Combine looted when they took whichever part of the Hegemony they took to get the plans for the Jenner.

Likely, he left the duplicate structural drawings and major heavy (Non portable) tooling, while taking the plans for a different prototype generation that used the basic layout.  (recall, the DCMS Jenner has knees hinged like a man's knees, while the IIC has chickenwalker legs.)

This suggests he either grabbed the more advanced prototype, or the earlier one.

odds are good he grabbed the advanced prototype and its drawings, and left the earlier developmental stuff behind.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #17 on: 02 November 2021, 22:46:28 »
Typically people forget that Kerensky looted most of the ongoing technical projects when he looted the Hegemony.  The Jenner IIC is an SRM boat, the Draconis Combine's Jenner uses Medium Lasers and initially came with a Large, suggesting that the parts of the library Kerensky looted weren't the same ones the Combine looted when they took whichever part of the Hegemony they took to get the plans for the Jenner.

Likely, he left the duplicate structural drawings and major heavy (Non portable) tooling, while taking the plans for a different prototype generation that used the basic layout.  (recall, the DCMS Jenner has knees hinged like a man's knees, while the IIC has chickenwalker legs.)

This suggests he either grabbed the more advanced prototype, or the earlier one.

odds are good he grabbed the advanced prototype and its drawings, and left the earlier developmental stuff behind.

Or it just suggests that the Clans decided to go a different direction with the Jenner IIC.  Not the first time they did that coughPhoenixHawkIICcough.
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Cannonshop

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #18 on: 02 November 2021, 22:56:23 »
Or it just suggests that the Clans decided to go a different direction with the Jenner IIC.  Not the first time they did that coughPhoenixHawkIICcough.

possibly, however the Phoenixhawk IIC keeps the bulk of the original's physical layout (admittedly sized up).  The Jenner IIC uses a different leg assembly and drops the energy weapons for more missiles entirely. the legs really sell it-this was from a different prototype, and why steal the less developed one?

One of the traits of the IIC's is that they changed loadouts, and weights, but were still recognizably laid out in roughly the same ways. (Except the Shadowhawk IIC, which lost the shoulder gun on its diet).

but it's a fair bet that a project under development would see the most recent design iterations being 'confiscated' before Kerensky's desertion Operation: Exodus, with space limitations meaning leaving the older, buggy versions behind.
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Mendrugo

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #19 on: 02 November 2021, 23:54:23 »
Interestingly, the Jenner that appears in "Betrayal of Ideals" matches the second generation configuration, rather than that of the prototype, implying either parallel evolution or that the second variant was planned and Kerensky's acquisition teams grabbed those upgrade notes when they hijacked the chassis for the Exodus Fleet.
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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #20 on: 04 November 2021, 23:54:50 »
The Recognition Guides also shed light to this weirdness.
Basically, apparently the Star League was really interested in an assault-class recon 'Mech. Explains the Charger.
Then you have the Phoenix Hawk C which used UAC/2s for some reason. The Vapor Eagle, quite similar to the Phoenix Hawk in many ways, was made into a duelist with big guns. And finally the Steel Vipers combined these concepts in the Phoenix Hawk IIC.

That said, i don't think it really answers the question why, it just moves it back to the Star League time.
Mehhh... I just thought the Steel Vipers had messed up priorities. They built duelists loaded down with the most expensive tech, but their mainline omnis are primitive as ******.

The Viper is essentially a Timberwolf with hands. The Phoenix Hawk IIC could have given the Gargoyle a run for its money.

But no, settling grudges fighting trials was apparently more important.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #21 on: 05 November 2021, 00:01:10 »
I'm pretty sure there was more than a little chlorine in the Steel Viper gene pool.
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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #22 on: 05 November 2021, 08:11:17 »
I think that in-universe, the Warhammer, Marauder, Phoenix Hawk, and Rifleman IIC were nothing more than the result of the Clans wanting to optimize their old designs not unlike how we as players out-of-universe do.

"Replace that autocannon with an ER PPC, and make the structure beefier!" said someone about the Marauder.

"Medium pulse lasers to replace all those smaller guns, and make the structure beefier!" said someone about the Warhammer.

"Replace those autocannon and standard lasers all with large pulse lasers, beef up the structure, and give it some vertical mobility!" said someone about the Rifleman.

"The original is too puny and hot, so beef it up and replace everything with heavy autocannon!" said someone about the Phoenix Hawk.


Then of the Griffin and Shadow Hawk IIC, someone else said "The 55-ton chassis are pretty resource-intensive.  With our technology advances, we can reduce the sizes of the Griffin and Shadow Hawk, doing away with the big cannons and missile launchers, and increase their mobility to compensate for loss in structure and armor."

Because let's face it, Clan medium lasers are basically 1-ton introtech large lasers, and the Shadow Hawk IIC has three of them (well, two are pulse but that's fine)!
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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #23 on: 05 November 2021, 10:24:52 »
They can't all have been lost in Operation Klondike - one shows up in "Betrayal of Ideals" in the final mopping up against the Wolverines.

So destroyed during Klondike according to clan records.

The Clanners backdated most/if not all of the deaths/lost hardware in Betrayal of Ideals to occur during Klondike or Pentagon Civil War.

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #24 on: 05 November 2021, 10:41:51 »
Didn't remember that Jenners were seen after KLONDIKE but Recognition Guides are from Clan POV, so it seems likely they weren't aware of any record alteration. Or didn't care.
The Clanners are good at self-deception  ;D

See the Conjurer, which is really Wolverine IIC. But can't use that name so...
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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #25 on: 05 November 2021, 13:34:48 »
I really enjoy the Sea Fox vibe from RecGuide 18; "Man, we just can't escape this cursed name. Totally still sell Wolverines to you if you're buying tho".

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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #26 on: 05 November 2021, 13:51:32 »
Didn't remember that Jenners were seen after KLONDIKE but Recognition Guides are from Clan POV, so it seems likely they weren't aware of any record alteration. Or didn't care.
The Clanners are good at self-deception  ;D

See the Conjurer, which is really Wolverine IIC. But can't use that name so...

The Jenner in question was a Clan Wolf machine.  Though damaged, it appears to have survived the fight on Barbados.
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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #27 on: 05 November 2021, 14:14:56 »
Looks like my memory failed me slightly, RG18 doesn't actually specify what happened to the Jenners the SLDF took with them. But we can surmise they didn't survive for long.
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Re: How did The Clans get the Jenner?
« Reply #28 on: 13 November 2021, 13:20:05 »
my idea was it was a Dragon to Great Wyrm situation where while they didn't have the actual mechs...they still had all the tech specs and later on some science cast lead whatever was like "you know this could work if we do these changes with our superior clan tech"

but apparently we now have a canon in-verse explanation and generally new stuff trumps old so..
« Last Edit: 13 November 2021, 13:25:29 by AJC46 »

 

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