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Author Topic: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II  (Read 11629 times)

Kotetsu

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’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« on: 23 January 2015, 04:54:52 »
’Mech of the Week: Thor II

Thor II. Replacement for the iconic Thor (Summoner). Given the name Grand Summoner by the Clans, though perhaps not even recognized by them by that name. Renowned for its communications suite, which might even be able to penetrate ECM suites.

Still missing the hammer, though…

The Thor II comes from Technical Readout: 3145, and resembles the Age of Destruction miniature.

That the Thor II was designed to replace the Thor is a bit surprising. Frankly, I think I prefer the original, but that may be nostalgia. Or the fixed jump jets. The only reason I can think of as to why they might need to replace it is if the Jade Falcons had lost the ability to produce the Thor. If they had, I guess some of the blame must go to Aiden Pryde (since he basically wrecked every single Thor in the Falcon arsenal just before Tukayyid).

The first Thor IIs appeared in 3093, produced at a factory on Erewhon, where the first Thor II still stands, painted each year in the colors of the best cluster in the Falcon touman, as decided by the Khan herself. At 70 tons, the Thor II is the same weight as its forebear. It also uses a similar 350-rated extralight engine, giving it the same ground speed, though it lacks the fixed jump jets of the Thor. Unlike its predecessor, the Thor II uses an endo-steel skeleton. It does retain the fourteen double-strength heat sinks. Ten tons of ferro-fibrous armor provides 88% of maximum protection, laid out in a 9, 31/8, 22/7, 20, 23 pattern (head, center front/rear, side front/rear, arms, legs respectively). This left thirty and half tons of pod space available for weapons, eight tons more than the original Thor.

The Prime variant starts by restoring the jump jets, then adds a Class-5 Ultra autocannon and a medium laser in each arm, an additional medium laser in each side torso, and a 15-rack LRM launcher on the left shoulder. One ton of ammunition is allocated for each autocannon (placed underneath it), and two tons were allocated for the LRM (placed under the launcher).

Alpha begins with replicating the Thor Prime, with jump jets, a right arm-mounted Particle Cannon, a left arm-mounted Class-10 LB-X autocannon, and a 15-rack LRM launcher in the left torso. Additionally, a 5-rack LRM launcher was placed in the right torso. Two tons of ammunition are allocated for the autocannon and for the 15-rack, with one ton placed for the 5-rack.

Bravo skips the jump jets for lots of missiles. A 15-rack LRM launcher is in each arm, a 5-rack LRM launcher in each side torso, and both a 9-pack and a 6-pack ATM in the left torso. A small laser was installed in both the center and right torsos. Three tons of ammunition feeds each 15-rack, a ton of ammunition feeds the 5-rack, three tons for the 9-pack and two tons for the 6-pack.

Charlie is the close-in brawler of the configurations. A large pulse laser is mounted in each arm, a flamer is placed in the center torso, a 4-pack Streak SRM launcher is in the right torso, and a Class-20 Ultra autocannon is situated in the left torso. One ton of Streak ammunition and three tons of Class-20 ammunition are allocated.

Finally, Delta uses five jump jets, eight additional heat sinks, and mounts a medium and large laser in each arm, tied to a targeting computer. Finally, a 15-rack LRM launcher is placed in the left torso, fed by two tons of ammunition.

Using a Thor II changes slightly based on your configuration. More to the point, if you have jump jets, you can replicate the tactics you would use with a Thor. The other two official configurations differ in that the Bravo is more a stand-off and darken the sky with missiles type, whereas Charlie is more a city and close-quarters fighter. While I prefer the jumpers (better maneuverability and the OpFor tends to forget about jump jets at times), others aren’t so happy with them. I tend to jump in, strike, and jump out when I lose initiative. Rear shots are always decent goals (I believe the Clan view is if one can get into another’s back arc, it’s the other guy’s fault). The non-jumpers are more the slowly move forward and devastate your opponents as you close.

Fighting one is like facing a Thor: nerve-wracking. Heavy weapons are a good start. Pulses, targeting computers, and precision-armed autocannons also help. Key location for targeting is the left torso, which seems to carry ammunition, though Bravo has a tempting amount of bins in the right. Take any opportunities presented, whether accident or pilot-error.

The Thor II is present in all Inner Sphere Clan forces, and also in some other areas (at least based on the picture, and that it looks like the Dark Age mini for several Spheroid commands). And being produced by the Falcons, it is likely to be at the forefront of Hazen’s Mongol invasions. When the Fortress finally comes down, it may well make a strike as deep as Terra itself.

marauder648

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #1 on: 23 January 2015, 05:27:22 »
Nice review of a good upgrade of the old classic.  I'd assume that the classic Thor is either hard to produce now or simply the Falcons wanted to design something that was a bit more flexible and in turn a bit more sensible.  The result is a mobile and well armed machine with variants (thus far) that are not as wonky as the old Thor's (until you get out of the classic 3050 ones that is).

One thing that does strike me as odd is the LRM 5 launchers on the Alfa and Bravo. The one tonne bin seems to me to indicate that on the Alfa especially, this is for specialist rounds, smoke perhaps and is in essence going to serve as a defensive weapon not an offensive one.  Again with the Bravo, the two launchers and their ammo could well be loaded with smoke rounds or swarm warheads and be used to caramelise infantry or block LOS.
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jymset

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #2 on: 23 January 2015, 05:47:59 »
Thank you for the article, Kotetsu.

So, from a dev's point of view: I was given a carte blanche to plan the units and their stats. My love of the Thor has been documented before. Of course, the "Dark Age" Thor would have to feature in TRO 3145 as the Thor II.

But strangely (thankfully), I restrained myself in the creativity department. The Endo Steel structure was documented by the existing dossiers, as were configurations A, B, and D. The Prime is from MechWarrior IV and the C from MechCommander (replacing a MPL with the Flamer). IIRC, the A should've even featured a second LRM5, but that was just too much. Well, it could've been shoe-horned in at the expense of going back to the same old 10 shots for the LB-X, but that's a compromise I was unwilling to take.

I was so happy with the result - which basically wrote itself - that I ended up cutting "my" E (2x ERPPC, 7-8 iJJ, some HS and basic electronics) before final submission. Leave this thing pure, I say!
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marauder648

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #3 on: 23 January 2015, 06:06:12 »
Heh I like that you restrained yourself, you could have gone berserk with Ferro-lammy and endo-comp for example.  You produced a darn good mech, although again must ask, why the LRM 5 on the Alfa?
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #4 on: 23 January 2015, 10:02:46 »
I'll echo Marauder and reckon that the LRM-5 is best used for specialist rounds. A shame the Clans do not have Thunder-Augmented LRMs.
I'm thinking i'd like to have some machine guns or medium lasers ,heck, why not a pair of MGs and a ML, or small lasers, the LRM-5 doesn't seem to be that useful.
EDIT It seems pretty clear why the LRM-5 is there, existing stats and data mandated it, like with so many other Dark Age mechs.

I am not sure how i feel about the Grand Summoner. On one hand, it is a good upgrade to the original (Endo-Steel!), on the other hand it feels like it lost some of its charm by lacking fixed jump jets, even though one may not always need them.
It is too sensible, kind of. The Hel is as insane as its predecessor but better (provided you don't mind the slower speed), and i'm not sure it can be called a sensible mech still.

By the way, how does this work with the Hel, in theory? Do they complement each other in any way or are these two too different?

I do like the art though. Utilitarian, fits the Clans well. Also reminds me of the Mechwarrior IV Thor, which was probably my favorite mech in the game (at least, until the Hel inspired me to put a Long Tom to Loki. The hilarity of that made it my favorite mech).

EDIT Oh, and the intro date. Sarna lists its production year as 3119 for some reason, intro one year before(?). I presume Sarna is incorrect here for some reason.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2015, 10:13:08 by Empyrus »
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Arkansas Warrior

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #5 on: 23 January 2015, 10:27:04 »
I love the chassis, it's what the Thor always should've been; jump jets when you need them, extra payload when you don't.  But the mixed-size missile launchers drive me mad.  2 LRM-15s and 2 LRM-5s?  Why not just mount two LRM-20s and not have to worry about carrying two different sizes of the LRM ammo?  That's something that's always been a Thor hallmark I guess, but it irks me.  The C and D are excellent though.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #6 on: 23 January 2015, 10:37:00 »
EDIT Oh, and the intro date. Sarna lists its production year as 3119 for some reason, intro one year before(?). I presume Sarna is incorrect here for some reason.
It's fixed now, I'm not sure what happened. I do remember there was some conflicts intro dates between the TRO and the MUL. I guess TRO's dates won out on the Thor II.

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marauder648

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #7 on: 23 January 2015, 10:58:56 »

By the way, how does this work with the Hel, in theory? Do they complement each other in any way or are these two too different?


Going off the Primes of both Variants they work well together, both are basically long to mid range fighters and with their clantech weapons they generally outrange anyone not using clantech.  The Loki II is a pocket assault mech really with the ability to reach out and touch someone at long range that most assault mechs go green with envy.  2 Gauss, 2 ER Large is mind numbing when you see it on a 65 tonne chassis.  I honestly don't think there's anything Clan or IS that can come close to that throw weight in direct firepower and range until about 75 tonnes starting with a Timberwolf Prime.  And in the IS you're looking at assault mechs to have that much throw weight. 

The Thor II again is basically built for long range combat, the UAC is a fairly long range gun and the LRM-15 is there for some nice indirect and direct firepower and its got the mobility to control the range and speed of the engagement pritty well.
Whilst its not really got that much actual direct solid WALLOP like the Old Thor with its 15 point hole punch and LB-10 you'd still not want to be on the reciving end of a pair of UAC-5's a LRM-15 and a quartet of ER Meds. 

To me the Hel is a 'tank destroyer' its built to engage and make things 'go away' at very long range out of the range of most weapons.  The Thor II is a generalist and in doing so they would support each other well.  Assuming a situation where Zel's gone out the window (Mongol doctrine says hello) the you could easily imagine a Hel staying back and delivering its knock down power punches whilst at mid to long range a Thor II working with it would cut up or hammer anything that the Hel's already brought under its guns.  Its spread out fire looking for the nice juicy gaps in enemy armour punched by the Hel's Gauss and ER Large laser barrage.

And if you wanted to be really sick throw a Vulture II prime in there, quad LRM-20's.  Macross missile spam for sure for all your sandblasting needs.

And I must echo Arkasnas Warrior's comment re the missile boat.  Why not go with 2 x LRM 20, and 2 x ATM-6's instead of the 15, 5, 9, 6 mix.  I suppose its a bit boring and less quirky and clan variants tend to be a bit speshul at times with their weapon load outs (or how much ammo they have ;p ) so its a nod to the 3050 designs I guess :)
« Last Edit: 23 January 2015, 11:11:11 by marauder648 »
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cold1

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #8 on: 23 January 2015, 11:54:19 »
The II's chassis is an upgrade.  The configs are pretty good too.

I would like to have seen that E, or some other powerful new layout that broke the old Summoner mold.


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marauder648

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #9 on: 23 January 2015, 11:58:55 »
Indeed Cold1 a lot of the new Clan mechs are refinements and polishing of their old designs (Mad Kitty in many flavours, new vulture, new Hellbe and Summoner) as well as a general swing towards being more rational and less quirky. The new Scientists who replaced those who who were annihilated WENT SHOPPING AND HAVE YET TO RETURN*have produced a slew of new machines in TRO 3075 and, 3085 and 3145 where they are using their technology to the fullest and producing viable machines of fearsome power.

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« Last Edit: 23 January 2015, 14:26:34 by marauder648 »
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #10 on: 23 January 2015, 13:00:27 »
The bravo confuses me.  You have that many missiles... and you make them into four different sizes of two different launchers that have eight tons of ammunition between them that fire six different kinds of missile?  Yeah, that's flexible, but damn is it inefficient.  I'd rather drop the LRM-5s in order to bring the other ATM up to a -9 and make it easier for launchers to swap ammo bins as necessary.  As is, it's eclectic as hell.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #11 on: 23 January 2015, 13:05:37 »
Well, at least enemy warriors have no idea what's hitting them next...

That variant should be filled with LRM-5s and ATM-3s, IMO. Exact amount of firepower delivered each time, no overkills and more efficient ammo use. At least on paper, i find such concept cool.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #12 on: 23 January 2015, 13:15:50 »
It's been asked, so here is the unreleased E configuration. I'm posting it here cause I'm not meant to go over to fan designs. This is in no way official, but if the following should pop up somewhere in the future, consider it a preview. ^-^

Code: (Alternate Configuration E) [Select]
ER PPC RA 2 6
ER Small Laser CT 1 .5
ER PPC LA 2 6
Improved Jump Jets RT 8 8
Improved Jump Jets LT 8 8
Double Heat Sink RL 2 1
Double Heat Sink LL 2 1
Battle Value: 2,638

Uh, yeah. No electronics. Even 20+ years after their introduction, Clan ERPPCs are imo the game's best weapon. Combining 2 on a chassis while the speed/armor/heat parameters are *ok* will always make for a competitive unit. And ijj because
I would like to have seen that E, or some other powerful new layout that broke the old Summoner mold.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #13 on: 23 January 2015, 13:22:51 »
Could have had Light Active Probe ("basic electronics") or Light TAG instead of an ER Small Laser.
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jymset

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #14 on: 23 January 2015, 13:26:01 »
Yeah, I actually made sure that the light active probe is featured on a few CJF totem 'Mechs (Gyrfalcon, Jade Hawk) and had it on this for a bit. But I think the choice veered this way because great as ERPPCs are, the alpha damage for a 70-tonner is somewhat limited, so 5 extra damage do help. Also, even with it, the thing is only +4 heat on a jumping alpha strike, so...

Gah, are we discussing "fan designs" now?! :D :-X
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #15 on: 23 January 2015, 14:03:38 »
Personally, if we're going for "breaking the Summoner mold", I'd go with something very high alpha, to the tune of... oh, let's go with this old thing.

Honorable mention for the second design on that post.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #16 on: 23 January 2015, 14:30:10 »
Personally , it's just not a Thor for me. The proposed E configuration is more something I would have liked to see in there, along with an H varient.

 It's not a bad design, but if it's a vee hunter I'd rather see an lbx-5 than an ultra. I'm of the opinion that it's a better gun ( I'll not get into my distaste for ultras here ).

 The winky lrm sizes... Eh, I can live with that. I like specialty ammo.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #17 on: 23 January 2015, 14:42:38 »
The bravo confuses me.  You have that many missiles... and you make them into four different sizes of two different launchers that have eight tons of ammunition between them that fire six different kinds of missile?  Yeah, that's flexible, but damn is it inefficient.  I'd rather drop the LRM-5s in order to bring the other ATM up to a -9 and make it easier for launchers to swap ammo bins as necessary.  As is, it's eclectic as hell.
well, partly this is due to the need to match the MWDA figures. like Noel Hurtado's mech, with is basically the stock Bravo



i would argue there is some logic to it.
the LRM5's can be used with special ammo. minefields, smoke, etc. the LRM15's provide the main fire support. and the ATm's are direct fire support/close defense.. i would imagine they usually run standard and HE ammo for the ATm's, the maximize the firepower.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2015, 14:46:09 by glitterboy2098 »

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #18 on: 23 January 2015, 15:12:47 »
well, partly this is due to the need to match the MWDA figures. like Noel Hurtado's mech, with is basically the stock Bravo



i would argue there is some logic to it.
the LRM5's can be used with special ammo. minefields, smoke, etc. the LRM15's provide the main fire support. and the ATm's are direct fire support/close defense.. i would imagine they usually run standard and HE ammo for the ATm's, the maximize the firepower.

I'd still rather combine them into a pair of LRM-15s and a pair of ATM-6s or ATM-9s, so you can avoid having two or three tons of extraneous ammo, or that you could use for additional alternate munitions for your main launchers. 
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #19 on: 23 January 2015, 15:35:53 »
So basically the complaint comes down to it following the already published variants too closely?

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #20 on: 23 January 2015, 16:04:23 »
So basically the complaint comes down to it following the already published variants too closely?

Not sure entirely who that was aimed at, but my complaint stems from having four different sizes of two different kinds of launcher with four (standard) kinds of ammo between them. :P  Logistical nightmare.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #21 on: 23 January 2015, 19:01:29 »
I'll always prefer the 3050 Omnis (for nostalgia if anything else) but I do like the Thor II. The Grand Summoner is not the same as the original Summoner but clan sequel mechs rarely try to be the same as their parent mech (exp; Mad Cat II and III) It's a little tougher and carries more firepower, can't argue with that.     
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #22 on: 23 January 2015, 19:10:35 »
This is a proper II mech. It improves upon the original, and can do everything the original can and then some. I approve  O0
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #23 on: 23 January 2015, 20:15:08 »
I like the base chassis, but I am not particularly impressed with the configurations.  The Prime would have been much better off with more flexible 5-Xs while the A and B really need to decide on a standard launcher size and stick with it.  The C is better because it at least has some idea of what it wants to do even if it could really use more SRMs to back up the big -20.  The D is a good idea, but it is significantly oversinked with no possible way to generate heat in normal operation so it could have been significantly improved by pulling seven DHS to make room for a major expansion of its short range arsenal (that or more DHS and long range guns).

It's been asked, so here is the unreleased E configuration. I'm posting it here cause I'm not meant to go over to fan designs. This is in no way official, but if the following should pop up somewhere in the future, consider it a preview. ^-^

Code: (Alternate Configuration E) [Select]
ER PPC RA 2 6
ER Small Laser CT 1 .5
ER PPC LA 2 6
Improved Jump Jets RT 8 8
Improved Jump Jets LT 8 8
Double Heat Sink RL 2 1
Double Heat Sink LL 2 1
Battle Value: 2,638

Uh, yeah. No electronics. Even 20+ years after their introduction, Clan ERPPCs are imo the game's best weapon. Combining 2 on a chassis while the speed/armor/heat parameters are *ok* will always make for a competitive unit. And ijj because

That would have been a wonderful configuration to get, although I would have used a Flamer (or possibly a Micro Pulse Laser, but a Flamer is much more flexible) instead of the ERSL to clear out the infantry that seem to be everywhere these days.

Another fun thought would be to do something with iJJs and a class 20 (probably a 20-X to differentiate it from the C) to make a crazy urban combat machine and further explore the possibilities offered by iJJs because that is one of the things the original could not do.


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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #24 on: 23 January 2015, 20:50:13 »
IJJs are difficult with something this big, because it costs you 16 tons out of your 30.5 tons of podspace in order to mount.  That's a single 20, with some ammo.  And a small laser.
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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #25 on: 23 January 2015, 21:04:14 »
Surprised no one has mentioned how the configuration seemed to be inspired in many ways by MW4. The prime configuration is close to the Prime in MW4 and the Delta is more or less what I used in that game.
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Empyrus

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #26 on: 23 January 2015, 21:09:25 »
Jymset said the Prime is from MW IV.
Though MW IV had a Machine Gun (array) in the RT along with two ERMLs, rather than one per side torso.

EDIT It seems the original Summoner's F config is also based on Mechwarrior IV, though it has smaller missile launcher.
Kinnol tank, JES III missile carrier, Simian, Quirinus and Centaur battle armor, Blade BLD-XR variant, Valiant VLT-3E variant, DI Multipurpose VTOL, Void (Minelayer) for fan funding
(Also Atlas AS7-K2)

cold1

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #27 on: 23 January 2015, 21:19:14 »
So basically the complaint comes down to it following the already published variants too closely?

I wouldn't say complain really

I'm not a big fan of the Summoner but I really like the Thor II... it has the right mix of speed, armor, and firepower at 70 tons for a clan mech.  The original is light on armor and pod space, the II gets it where it needs to be.


To the patient go the spoils

Colt Ward

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #28 on: 23 January 2015, 22:29:32 »
Yeah, a 5/8/7 with a LB-20X and some MPL would have been fun to play around with . . . maybe a single LRM5 for laughs.  This adds to the solid line up of heavies the Falcons are churning out . . . Summoner II, Hel, TBolt IIC and IIRC a few others . . . post-Jihad they seem to have a solid arsenal compared with using Kit Fox, Hellbringer and Summoners before.
Colt Ward

Beware the vengeance of a patient man.
Clan Invasion Backer #149

Empyrus

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Re: ’Mech of the Week: Thor II
« Reply #29 on: 23 January 2015, 22:35:00 »
Speaking of that, we need Kit Fox II.
I like its concept, a light that can punch way above its weight.
What's the Falcons' current standard light mech?

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One thing that struck me odd is the critical space arrangement of the Grand Summoner. Very little space in arms. Sure, it seems it can carry most of the Clan arsenal in its arms (don't need those actuators) but still, it seems to have oddly little space there. It is a nice, interesting quirk for sure.
Kinnol tank, JES III missile carrier, Simian, Quirinus and Centaur battle armor, Blade BLD-XR variant, Valiant VLT-3E variant, DI Multipurpose VTOL, Void (Minelayer) for fan funding
(Also Atlas AS7-K2)