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Author Topic: MotW Minsk  (Read 2042 times)

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #30 on: 26 April 2021, 14:48:10 »
Look, the stealth versions of both mechs were noted as being rare before the Exodus.  Your exact words were:

Quote
That doesn’t mean that every Clan trial until 2868 had Exterminators and Spectors going after Star Colonels or Galaxy Commanders.  But when the situation was desperate enough and/or the opponents dezgra enough (Wolverines, Widomakers, Mongeese, dangerous Bandit Caste), I would suspect that the Exterminators and Spectors were put into play.

That implies that no, these were not going to be brought out to play except under extraordinary circumstances and the Minsk was designed for regular usage.  Nothing mentions it being built for ultra-specialized, rare combat against dezgra opponents.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #31 on: 26 April 2021, 15:50:43 »
Look, the stealth versions of both mechs were noted as being rare before the Exodus.

The designations (SPR-4F vice 5F and EXT-4C vice 4D) indicate that the CLPS/Null-Sig versions were the baseline models, and thus probably produced in greater numbers, than the models that stripped out the stealth systems.  No doubt the stealth systems became rare in the Inner Sphere as attrition and technological loss took its toll.  No clear evidence for that in the Homeworlds.

Even if they were the rarer models or became rare in the Homeworlds, it doesn’t really matter for the purposes of this discussion.  It wouldn’t have taken a lot of EXT-4Cs and SPR-4Fs to pose a serious threat.  If each Clan had just a couple handfuls of these designs, that would have been enough to take out another Clan’s khans and galaxy commanders in a headhunter operation.

Again, the Minsk is poorly matched against this mobile, stealthy threat, especially if it’s charge is also mobile.  But protecting a Gausszilla or Imp against a Pulverizer?  No problem for the Minsk.

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That implies that no, these were not going to be brought out to play except under extraordinary circumstances and the Minsk was designed for regular usage.

No, quite the opposite.  Those annihilations (Wolverine) and absorptions (Widowmaker, Mongoose) were the big engagements of that time.  Those wars that involved entire toumans formed the bulk of Clan warfare in that period.  (There was probably also a lot of cleanup for years after KLONDIKE.)

Everything else was small-scale Clan trials just getting started.  When I have a Trial of Refusal against my Star Commander, I don’t send my buddy in an Exterminator to take out our Star Captain (obviously).  This small-scale stuff didn’t usually necessitate headhunters and bodyguards, and it didn’t make up the bulk of Clan warfare at that time, anyway.

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Nothing mentions it being built for ultra-specialized, rare combat against dezgra opponents.

In terms of numbers, dezgra opponents (Wolverines, Widowmakers, Mongeese, whatever cleanup was left after KLONDIKE) were the norm.  No other engagements involved thousands of mechs at this time.  Even the Bear/Horse battle for Tokasha — which involved four galaxies or hundreds of mechs — wouldn’t come along for almost another century.

And at the time the Minsk was introduced, only eight years after KLONDIKE, the development of Clan zellbriggen and honor was still in its infancy.  It’s doubtful that CLPS and Null-Sig has been set aside that early.

But even if Clan honor officially rejected CLPS and Null-Sig that early (something for which we have no evidence), Clanners being Clanners who ignore honor when convenient, they probably kept stealthy Exterminators and Spectors around until another solution (Elemental battle suits) came along a few decades later.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #32 on: 26 April 2021, 16:40:54 »
Both the Null Sig and Chameleon systems were noted as being very finicky and requiring lots of maintenance to keep running, resulting in the Star League "not fielding them in great numbers" and the SLDF only having a small number when it departed the Inner Sphere.  As resource-strapped as the Clans were initially, they probably did not have much ability to keep the systems in working order very easily and probably couldn't use them very often well before the dueling mentality caused the remaining ones to be mothballed.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #33 on: 26 April 2021, 17:35:07 »
Both the Null Sig and Chameleon systems were noted as being very finicky and requiring lots of maintenance to keep running, resulting in the Star League "not fielding them in great numbers" and the SLDF only having a small number when it departed the Inner Sphere.

“Not in great numbers” and “small numbers” is a relative thing when dealing with the SLDF and it’s enormous size.  Small might still be hundreds to low thousands.  TPTB also stated today that SLDF caches in the Inner Sphere and Homeworlds are essentially unlimited even in the current (Dark Age/ilClan) timeline:

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/general-discussion/all-used-up/msg1718783/#msg1718783

Moreover, is there a reference for this language?  I didn’t see it in the EXT and SPR entries in TRO3050U and TRO3058U.

What TRO3050U does say in the EXT entry is that:

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While the Clans possess examples of the design, they have shown no inclination of using it—and by accounts stopped the research of stealth technologies during the Golden Century, believing that the use of such advances was dishonorable.

What that indicates to me is that the Clans did not start turning away from the EXT and SPR until sometime after the Golden Century was underway.  And the Golden Century didn’t start until after Nick Kerensky’s death in 2834.  And the Minsk arrives four years before that, in 2830. 

So I think my thesis stands.  At the time the Minsk was being designed, developed, and introduced, stealthy Exterminators and Spectors still formed the Clans’ primary headhunter threat.

I’d also go further and say that Exterminators and Spectors probably weren’t phased out until Elementals took over the headhunter role sometime after 2868.  That’s still well within the Golden Century.

Quote
As resource-strapped as the Clans were initially, they probably did not have much ability to keep the systems in working order very easily and probably couldn't use them very often

I don’t buy that at all.  With the development of the Annihilator, Imp, Mercury II, Pulverizer, Stag, Stag II, Wazakashi, and various enhanced weapons occurring during the time between KLODIKE and the start of the Golden Century, the resources to keep some old SLDF stealth systems working is more than there.  If the Clans could afford Enhanced ER PPCs and new 100-ton XLE mechs, they could certainly afford to keep some Exterminators and Stealths in operational condition.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #34 on: 26 April 2021, 18:38:05 »
I don’t buy that at all.  With the development of the Annihilator, Imp, Mercury II, Pulverizer, Stag, Stag II, Wazakashi, and various enhanced weapons occurring during the time between KLODIKE and the start of the Golden Century, the resources to keep some old SLDF stealth systems working is more than there.  If the Clans could afford Enhanced ER PPCs and new 100-ton XLE mechs, they could certainly afford to keep some Exterminators and Stealths in operational condition.

Or maybe they decided that they wanted new assault mechs more than they wanted Exterminators.

But whatever.  At some point the two of us have crossed the line into definitely being off topic, so I'm just going to leave it that I think there were plenty of things that the Minsk would have been effective against to be useful in its role as a bodyguard mech.  Or we could look at it from the opposite perspective and guess what the primary threats against command mechs were based on the Minsk's loadout.
« Last Edit: 26 April 2021, 18:39:50 by MoneyLovinOgre4Hire »
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Jellico

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #35 on: 26 April 2021, 22:18:49 »
What sort of fighting did the Bears do during Klondike?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #36 on: 26 April 2021, 23:23:50 »
They did some serious urban fighting on Arcadia.  And also got into several fights with the Star Adders.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #37 on: 27 April 2021, 00:05:02 »
They did some serious urban fighting on Arcadia.  And also got into several fights with the Star Adders.

And desert battles after that.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Jellico

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #38 on: 28 April 2021, 16:46:12 »
So does the Minsk look like a reaction to those battles?

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #39 on: 28 April 2021, 21:53:07 »
Well, it's got long-range mech killers with the Gauss rifles, anti-vehicle capability with the SRMs, and anti-infantry with the machine guns and SPLs.  And an active probe to spot ambushs.  So probably.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

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Comedian

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #40 on: 03 May 2021, 05:43:30 »
Nanu?
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Take a Assault Mech!

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Weirdo

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #41 on: 03 May 2021, 07:03:05 »
TRO Golden Century. Lotta gems in that one. :thumbsup:
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wantec

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #42 on: 03 May 2021, 12:30:47 »
TRO Golden Century. Lotta gems in that one. :thumbsup:
That was a fun one to write for. A mix of making a unit standout, but still give a plausible reason it was replaced.
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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #43 on: 03 May 2021, 14:15:08 »
Yeah, the same challenge was there for designing the Warships for the Field Report 2765 series and other older ships. There had to be a plausible reason why those ships are extinct(or even closer to it than the more familiar ships) while the ones found in 3057 aren't, but they also had to be decent enough for folks to actually bring them to the tabletop, otherwise why bother publishing it at all? It's a tricky balance.
"Thanks to Megamek, I can finally play BattleTech the way it was meant to be played--pantsless!"   -Neko Bijin
"It's just that the Hegemony had one answer to every naval problem. 'I kills it with my battleships.'" - Liam's Ghost
"...finally, giant space panties don't seem so strange." - Whistler
"Damn you, Weirdo... Damn you for being right!" - Paul
"...I was this many years old when I found out that licking a touchscreen in excitement is a bad idea." - JadeHellbringer
"We are the tribal elders. Weirdo is the mushroom specialist." - Worktroll

BATTLEMASTER

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #44 on: 06 May 2021, 14:30:22 »
When I first saw the Minsk, I saw how close it was in configuration to a custom Warhammer config I made awhile ago.  And that configuration was made to mimic the weapons configuration of the Tomahawk from Macross. I can't help but think this battlemech's author was inspired in the same way.
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Middcore

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Re: MotW Minsk
« Reply #45 on: 06 May 2021, 14:43:47 »
I thought of the Ventilator from BattleTechnology magazine.