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Author Topic: MotW: Naga  (Read 6356 times)

Hellraiser

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #60 on: 17 January 2022, 17:16:58 »
Yeah, no Executioner carries a ER Small, it would have to be a ER Medium so a 1 Ton TAG would be a easy swap on a Omni.

Still not a TAG.
The description is he was shooting "spotting" lasers at 4 of the 6 targets.  NOT just Ulric.
TAG even in its current assist in IDF form, is still a single target.
He was just using a low powered laser beam to get ranging info for calling in IDF.

No TAG
No SG-LRMs

Just spotting for IDF & doing so against 4 of the 6 targets.

Vlad's mech & 1 other escort star member were NOT being targeted by the "beams" & survived the initial waves of LRMs.









One interesting thing with the Naga, AFAIK we are never told it is deployed as anything but a Galaxy level asset- that is, it is part of the Keshiks among the Wolves and not assigned to a cluster.  While it is not in the Tukayyid roster in WCSB, I want to say Alpha and Gamma imply they had Nagas in the Keshiks and later the Warden Wolves Omega Galaxy keshik had a second trinary that featured the Nagas


The 328th Assault Cluster “The Lion-Hearted” has Binary Artillery “The Lion’s Roar”, which consists of ten Nagas with elite mechwarriors (erg, what a waste of talent) in WCSB.

But I think that’s the only exception to implied or actual Naga deployment in Wolf Keshiks.

All Clan Galaxies are fluffed as being able to call on a certain amount of "Leg" Infantry & Artillery support services that are not seen in the Rosters.

The Wolf Phonebooks just gives us a very clear example of what that entails for the Wolves.

The "Standard" Wolf Keshik "Support Trinary" is 3 Stars of 10 Nagas & 10 Fighters.
We see this with Beta, Gamma, & Epsilon having this set up in their Support Trinary.

All 5 Galaxies have the same Keshik Command Trinary set up of 3 StratCom stars of 4 ground points & 1 air point.
When you add in the Galaxy Commander & his Aide in their own mechs this gives you a force of 10 Mechs, 20 Elementals, & 6 Fighters.

Alpha is missing it's "Support Trinary" of Nagas/Fighters,  But,  I've always believed that was because Ulric took the Alpha Command Trinary with him to be his own personal Escort unit as iLKhan.
So the Support Trinary of 20 Nagas was disbursed out to 4th Guards & 328th Assault at a Binary Each.

I believe if we had seen the Alpha Roster in 3050 instead of 3052 you would see the Alpha Keshik has Naga's attached to it & they would not have been w/ the Clusters.

But why the Extra 10 Nagas?  Where do those come from you say?  Where are the Fighters?

Easy,  Delta Galaxy goes the opposite route for its Support Keshik & replaced the Artillery Stars with extra Fighter Stars for a full Trinary of 30 ASF for its "Support" unit because Delta is a "Striker" galaxy & they wanted something faster than Nagas.

So other than Alpha/Delta being a bit of a "swap" with each other, almost, the other 3 Support units all follow the same pattern.
In the end its the same # of Nagas & the extra 10 fighters is easily explained by all those clusters that only support a Binary of 20 instead of a full Trinary.  Plenty of room to have the TO&E variety.
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Fallen_Raven

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #61 on: 17 January 2022, 18:48:44 »
One thing i often wondered.  SINCE Arrow IV takes 12 crits, why didn't they opt to Not use an XL engine, and just stick it ALL In the side torsos, since with it split torso AND arm, it still prevents the mech from flipping arms or using one arm for the rear arc..  That way the other weapons (and tech) could all go IN the arms, so it COULD have them flip to protect its butt...

I'm guessing the 5/8 speed was considered too important to give up. The Hellbringer, Timberwolf, Summoner, Mad Dog, and Gargoyle all have that movement, not to mention several standard 'mechs that came out in later products. In-universe and out, there just seemed to be an expectation that Clan 'mechs would go faster than the Inner Sphere standard for those weight classes.
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Jellico

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #62 on: 17 January 2022, 19:34:15 »
The 3050s had certain ideas about how Mechs should be built. Speed was a big part of it, as seen with the 5/8 Clans, TRO2750 having similar tendencies,  and XL engines being used for speed not guns.
Community experience with Clantech and Lostech led to slowing down and max armor on XL engines by TRO3058 

garhkal

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #63 on: 18 January 2022, 02:07:50 »
Since it's a range guy though, why does it NEED such a fast speed?  IMO a 3/5/3 should be adequate.. 

BUT that's me.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #64 on: 18 January 2022, 02:31:45 »


Artillery unable to keep up with the infantry is one of the constant complaints of history. That is before you get into shoot and scoot.

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #65 on: 18 January 2022, 10:37:42 »
Artillery unable to keep up with the infantry is one of the constant complaints of history. That is before you get into shoot and scoot.

And the Naga can bring its own infantry!

That said, considering Elementals only jump 3 MP at the most, I still can't justify taking a Naga over a Huey, an APC, and an ammo trailer.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #66 on: 18 January 2022, 11:06:12 »
You also cannot push those three out of a dropship or walk across a lake bottom.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #67 on: 18 January 2022, 12:44:42 »
You also cannot push those three out of a dropship or walk across a lake bottom.

There are rules to air-drop vehicles, of course that's up to the players.  I agree that if you need to traverse water a 'mech-based artillery weapon would be best for that, or even a hover or VTOL, but I don't think the Clans have any official artillery vehicles of those types.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #68 on: 18 January 2022, 12:50:34 »
Hadur, but that is a lot later.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #69 on: 18 January 2022, 13:26:55 »
The 3050s had certain ideas about how Mechs should be built. Speed was a big part of it, as seen with the 5/8 Clans, TRO2750 having similar tendencies,  and XL engines being used for speed not guns.
Community experience with Clantech and Lostech led to slowing down and max armor on XL engines by TRO3058

You know, I never noticed the pattern.

But your totally right.

Clans, for the most part of TRO3050, and definitely TRO2750 used XLs to boost speed  (Lancelot, Flashman, Exterminator)
    (Clan "Slow" mechs are restricted to Adder, Kitfox, Nova, & Direwolf)

Meanwhile, the IS, had a really BAD use of XLs in mechs for more Guns & a serious lack of Armor leading to a lot of "Glass Cannon" designs.
Some examples of XL for "guns" would be Jager, Riflemen, Ostsol, Archers, Marauders, Crusader, Goliath, Atlas, Battlemaster, Stalker, 55-ton Trio, PhoenixHawk, Vulcan-S, Trebuchet, Orion, Cicada.
IIRC, The only 3025 Era Light that got an XL was the Raven.  Which was a bit of a crime really since some were begging for a better engine to boost speed & add electronics.
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garhkal

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #70 on: 18 January 2022, 16:40:03 »


Artillery unable to keep up with the infantry is one of the constant complaints of history. That is before you get into shoot and scoot.

3/5/3 is more than adequate to keep up with infantry.

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #71 on: 18 January 2022, 16:45:15 »
3/5/3 is more than adequate to keep up with infantry.

I think the intention of the comparison is that the Naga is intended to keep up with the main forces, not specifically the infantry.

Because, you know, Omnimech. If it needs infantry support, they're going to be riding it. not trotting alongside it.
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Nightsong

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #72 on: 22 January 2022, 14:51:34 »
I almost have to wonder if the Naga was created as an Omnimech specifically to allow Elemental mechanization. When tweaking configs only amounts to which derringer you're going to carry along with your sniper rifle, Omnismoke seems kind of pointless unless you're specifically trying to get your body guards to ride.

snowridr

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #73 on: 24 January 2022, 11:02:14 »
Interesting how the cost per ton is so low compared to regular long range missiles 10k/30k per ton)

I'm surprised some clans hadn't come out with a version that would that would be more usable on the field. Drop the engine down to 4/6, swap out the ER small lasers to larges, up the armor a bit, something to make it more useful than just standing on the sideline and being cut from bids.

The idea of a punishment assignment with a 26M cbill mech seems awfully stupid even for the clans IMO.

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #74 on: 24 January 2022, 12:50:42 »
I'm surprised some clans hadn't come out with a version that would that would be more usable on the field. Drop the engine down to 4/6, swap out the ER small lasers to larges, up the armor a bit, something to make it more useful than just standing on the sideline and being cut from bids.

Dropping it to 4/6 leaves it behind from supporting the 5/8 Timber Wolves & Gargoyles, 6/9 Linebackers, Adders & Lobos, and definitely be dusted by 8/12 Ice Ferrets.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #75 on: 24 January 2022, 13:54:38 »
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #76 on: 24 January 2022, 13:57:25 »
I think so.  The Naga delivers twice the fire volume for one unit compared to the Mad Dog or Kit Fox V.  Now if the Mad Dog V went with dual Arrow IVs with two tons of ammo each, I'd use that instead of the Naga, but that's not the actual case.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #77 on: 24 January 2022, 14:25:30 »
With the new V configs is there still a need for the Naga?

No indication the Naga is still being built, though since it uses the same parts as the Gargoyle it is not a stretch it would still be functioning.

Besides, the Kit Fox & Mad Dog would be A4 chuckers for the Falcons & Bears respectively.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #78 on: 24 January 2022, 18:53:36 »
No indication the Naga is still being built, though since it uses the same parts as the Gargoyle it is not a stretch it would still be functioning.

Besides, the Kit Fox & Mad Dog would be A4 chuckers for the Falcons & Bears respectively.
TRO 3055U mentions the Naga's factory as being on Arcadia, back in the Clan Homeworlds. Strangely enough, none of the 3055 Clan Omnis made it into either TRO Clan Invasion or TRO Jihad. The Linebacker made the Rec Guides so we know it's still going, but the other 3 are up in the air as far as I know
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #79 on: 24 January 2022, 19:31:50 »
TRO 3055U mentions the Naga's factory as being on Arcadia, back in the Clan Homeworlds. Strangely enough, none of the 3055 Clan Omnis made it into either TRO Clan Invasion or TRO Jihad. The Linebacker made the Rec Guides so we know it's still going, but the other 3 are up in the air as far as I know

Just a small correction, but all three of the other 3055 Omnis made it into TRO:Jihad.
I was just staring at them yesterday, so they're still fresh in my mind, lol.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #80 on: 24 January 2022, 20:31:43 »
Besides, the Kit Fox & Mad Dog would be A4 chuckers for the Falcons & Bears respectively.
Both of them are quite more widespread.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #81 on: 24 January 2022, 20:47:16 »
With the new V configs is there still a need for the Naga?

http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7746/uller-kit-fox-v
http://www.masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/7729/vulture-mad-dog-v

I just heard about these.
I had made "V" configurations for a fan product a few years ago.

Didn't have a KitFox but I did have a MadDog & Hellbringer both with Twin-Arrows
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #82 on: 24 January 2022, 20:51:22 »
No indication the Naga is still being built, though since it uses the same parts as the Gargoyle it is not a stretch it would still be functioning.
The MUL has the Naga in service with most of the IS Clans. And considering the rather basic component list, odds are good that parts are available.

TRO 3055U mentions the Naga's factory as being on Arcadia, back in the Clan Homeworlds.

I think the production line for the Naga got used by the Society. Sarna says its in The Wars of Reaving: Supplemental that its listed as phased out in favor of new production.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #83 on: 24 January 2022, 21:05:22 »
The MUL has the Naga in service with most of the IS Clans. And considering the rather basic component list, odds are good that parts are available..

Sure, but they would not be as widespread as they would among the Wolves.  Which is why having the others be A4 platforms in a config is useful to supplement.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #84 on: 25 January 2022, 07:51:04 »
Just a small correction, but all three of the other 3055 Omnis made it into TRO:Jihad.
I was just staring at them yesterday, so they're still fresh in my mind, lol.
Whoops, you're right. I guess I was so focused on looking for the Naga I must have skimmed over these.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #85 on: 25 January 2022, 10:07:02 »
Option 1: Install Arrow IV launcher(s) on your existing Omnimechs for bombardment roles when needed (see: Black Brian assault by the Jade Falcons on Apollo)

Option 2: Have dedicated Arrow IV firing platform for second-line forces (see: Bowman)

Option 3: Create a half-assed hybrid that technically is an Omnimech, but has the two Arrow systems hardwired, so the only thing you can really do is fiddle with ammo/backup popgun loadouts a little, while being incapable of carrying battle armor due to it fouling up the ability to fire the artillery systems.

I never have understood why the Naga exists, and I never will. It's good at its job, for sure, but... it just shouldn't exist. Per the Clans' own rules, I don't care about the dishonor side of things- if you need artillery, you need it, period. But either make a standard Battlemech out of it, or pod-mount the arty- trying to have it both ways makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The loadouts confirm the uselessness- what reason could there possibly be to use any config other than a Prime?

If you need Arrow support, it's probably the best unit in the game for the job. And its very existence is a war crime- not in the way the Clans usually think about artillery, just in the logic department.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #86 on: 25 January 2022, 10:38:18 »
The trouble with OmniMechs is that Clanners are stubborn. If you order them to mount artillery, they might refuse and bet they can win both the battle and any Trials following their insubordination. If you send them a star of Nagas, you leave them no choice.

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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #87 on: 25 January 2022, 10:47:15 »
The trouble with OmniMechs is that Clanners are stubborn. If you order them to mount artillery, they might refuse and bet they can win both the battle and any Trials following their insubordination. If you send them a star of Nagas, you leave them no choice.

At the same time, I think the ranking officer can refuse the trial and make them carry whatever is needed for the mission anyway.

I've learned lately that the Clans aren't as rigid as I've treated them in the past  :)
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #88 on: 25 January 2022, 12:51:30 »
Exactly, refusing an order for what is needed for a battle is a GOOD way to get your happy arse sent to a Solhama unit as a PBI.

The clans are not some Free-For-All do whatever you want in battle, they are a Military.
Obeying Orders is still pretty much REQUIRED for any Military.
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Re: MotW: Naga
« Reply #89 on: 25 January 2022, 14:05:04 »
For any real military, absolutely. But I tend to view Clan military affairs circa 2945 as more of a high-stakes organized sports league.

(Which is a great idea if all sides agree to it! The Clans prospered during those years.)

I wouldn't advise pulling such stunts after the Clans re-embrace the concept of total war.

 

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