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Author Topic: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?  (Read 2616 times)

Whiteagle

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #30 on: 29 July 2022, 20:04:58 »
Again, though, the process of getting all of that down takes a lot of time and effort, and for more complex work may require additional work to account for various common neurodivergencies. And, once you've tested the device on a subject once... well, with pumping signals straight to the brain, there's a fairly high chance you won't get to use them in a test again, put it that way.
Still though, these are the same signals MechWarriors are exposing themselves to every time they use a regular Neurohelm, SOMEBODY has to understand how that works, even in the most rudimentary of fashions.
From there it's not a HUGE leap to start screwing around with the principles to make a Mind Encoder instead of a Mind Decoder.

Even the sickest, most totalitarian Capellan is going to be hesitant to invest heavily in a program that promises to cap people with modified neurohelmets if it's going to spend decades, hundreds of trillions in C-Bills, and quite a lot of human lives for a chance to maybe manage to not only understand but vastly improve the greatest leap in Star League technology ever devised. And, this being BattleTech, the facility has to not befall some tragedy during that time as heroic Named McCharacterâ„¢ comes in to have an improbable but highly exciting 300-page conflict over the project and its dubious goals.
BUT HOW ELSE WILL I HAVE MY FACTION OF GENETICALLY ENGINEERED BEAST-WOMEN WHO USE NEURAL IMPRINTING FOR LEARNING AND/OR EFFECTIVELY IMMORTAL CHARACTERS?!

Neural feedback is in fact lethal, it is one of the main downfalls of EI and DNI. Why do you think it's two pilot hits per ammo or gauss explosion? If a head shot does not take you out early cancer or neurological damage will
But that's Enhanced Imagining and DIRECT Neural Interfaces, which both requires direct physical linkage to the nervous system!
Of course a feedback overload is going to be damaging there.
I'm talking whatever plot-onium rays allow the passive interfacing of regular and presumably Advanced Neurohelmets with their pilots.
Pokefan at least makes a good point about Neuro-divergency making a mess of things, but the fact that Neurohelms provide a TWO-way interface means it has to be sending SOMETHING into the brain to cause that stimuli.

and one novel establishes that the feedback was at one point used as a security system. in the novel Double Blind a character steals an absolutely ancient Clint, and it has a Neurohelmet that used the mental feedback effect of normal operation to 'synch up' to its pilots brain activity, and only that one pilot could thus use it. if someone uses it who isn't the one who had their brain wave patterns programmed in, they suffer physical illness and massive headache as a result. the character ended up spending days in hiding reprogramming and resetting the systems so he could use it somewhat safer.

the novel suggests that such security systems were common at one point but were eventually replaced with the more standard password and voice print set ups because it was easier and more conductive to multiple users.
Yeah, I've heard about Neurohelms being used as a Mech-Jacking countermeasure.
I'm not saying it can't be super harmful, but one of the means a human brain learns is basically adapting to trauma, creating new neural pathways and such.
For a Neurohelmet to have these side effects means it must somehow be interacting with the neurons, and thus someone with a rudimentary understating of Neurology could make the leap to "shape the neural pathways the way I want!"

pokefan548

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #31 on: 31 July 2022, 04:49:07 »
Still though, these are the same signals MechWarriors are exposing themselves to every time they use a regular Neurohelm, SOMEBODY has to understand how that works, even in the most rudimentary of fashions.
From there it's not a HUGE leap to start screwing around with the principles to make a Mind Encoder instead of a Mind Decoder.
It is not, in fact, the same signal used by regular neurohelmets. Standard neurohelmet feedback basically ends at a quick "hey, wake up!" zap whenever something bad happens that needs attention. SLDF Advanced Neurohelmet is on a an entirely different scale of complexity. The nature of the design is only understood by people long-dead, and given how they function they probably didn't understand it as much as they should to begin with.

Now, if you want to put together an AU down in the Fan Fiction subforum where the principles behind the SLDFAN propogated and became widely known and understood, allowing various nefarious powers to use them for various undignified purposes, go right ahead. Just try to remember that having basically any feedback more complex than a basic, slightly painful signal is pretty darn significant in neurohelmet design.
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BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #32 on: 31 July 2022, 10:27:21 »
But that's Enhanced Imagining and DIRECT Neural Interfaces, which both requires direct physical linkage to the nervous system!
Of course a feedback overload is going to be damaging there.

Pilot damage due to ammo explosions is not exclusive to EI/VDNI.  it's almost like the 'mech is punishing the pilot for putting the machine in that situation ::)

You'd think the Star League would've figured out how to not make helmets fry brains every time ammo exploded.
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Whiteagle

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #33 on: 31 July 2022, 13:57:58 »
It is not, in fact, the same signal used by regular neurohelmets. Standard neurohelmet feedback basically ends at a quick "hey, wake up!" zap whenever something bad happens that needs attention.

...

Just try to remember that having basically any feedback more complex than a basic, slightly painful signal is pretty darn significant in neurohelmet design.
If it was that simplistic of feedback, why was it a feature of the Neurohelmet at all?
I mean, just being just a notification buzzer is something you could build into the cockpit chair, and the pain response is generally not very exact to begin with.

SLDF Advanced Neurohelmet is on a an entirely different scale of complexity. The nature of the design is only understood by people long-dead, and given how they function they probably didn't understand it as much as they should to begin with.
Fair enough considering the drawbacks even using one fresh, but it calls into question what kind of two-way Neural Interface were they hoping to get?

Now, if you want to put together an AU down in the Fan Fiction subforum where the principles behind the SLDFAN propogated and became widely known and understood, allowing various nefarious powers to use them for various undignified purposes, go right ahead.
I mean, I have pondered an AU where such Neural read/write technology helps explain the continued existence of the Great Houses; Each has a huge databank containing the mental imprints of generations of House Lords, and decades of purposeful or accidental data tampering has warped them into stereotypical caricature of themselves more than willing to "Assume DIRECT CONTROL" of the current living Nobles...

Pilot damage due to ammo explosions is not exclusive to EI/VDNI.  it's almost like the 'mech is punishing the pilot for putting the machine in that situation ::)

You'd think the Star League would've figured out how to not make helmets fry brains every time ammo exploded.
With Pokefan's explanation on how minimal the feedback otherwise is to begin with, it makes one question why they didn't just go with a more traditional haptic system...

pokefan548

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #34 on: 31 July 2022, 14:08:03 »
Look, if we want to keep going "what if X" or "well why would the even bother doing Y", we could be here forever.

BattleTech writers aren't neuroscientists (at least, none are to my knowledge), the technology was drafted in an era where things like neurodivergence simply often weren't accounted for, and as with many of BattleTech's technologies that are as much fi as they are sci, they're probably never going to be fully explained simply because it would be restrictive on future writers and would most likely end up being proven horribly inaccurate to the point that it can't be taken seriously (see BattleTech's early attempts at drone tech).

There's a point where the answer unfortunately becomes, "Eh, however the writer wants to play this, whatever." Also have to keep that old Future-Of-The-80s thing in mind, a lot of perfectly viable alternatives either weren't possible or weren't widely known/available back then.
« Last Edit: 31 July 2022, 14:10:00 by pokefan548 »
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Whiteagle

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #35 on: 31 July 2022, 14:11:51 »
Also have to keep that old Future-Of-The-80s thing in mind
But that's specifically what irks me!  xp

Also I should mention Haptic Feedback has been a thing since the 60s...
« Last Edit: 31 July 2022, 14:20:47 by Whiteagle »

pokefan548

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #36 on: 31 July 2022, 15:00:36 »
There's also the fact that haptic feedback doesn't work so well when you're a machine that's already rumbling and vibrating and being shaken by fire already.
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Whiteagle

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #37 on: 31 July 2022, 15:39:09 »
There's also the fact that haptic feedback doesn't work so well when you're a machine that's already rumbling and vibrating and being shaken by fire already.
You'd be surprised, it's something they added to Airplane Control Yokes so Pilots can "feel" how the plane is flying despite it being a fly-by-wire system.
Plus it'd be a lot easier to implement than beaming a signal into the brain just for a notification buzz.
Again, those Plotonium Rays have to have some effect on the brain, and that alone is enough of an excuse to figure how that can be exploited!

grimlock1

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #38 on: 10 August 2022, 13:29:45 »
which gets you something closer to the Robot Jox controls (which likely inspired the choice of cockpit for Pacific Rim), or the EX-Gear of Macross Frontier and Macross Delta.
just make sure you have a high drift compatibility, and remember, don't chase the R.A.B.I.T.
I have no doubt there were earlier versions, Robot Jox is the first case I can remember of a mech not being controlled from a conventional cockpit with a seat and lots of levers.

yep. same place the VRPP system showed up. the word took that DNI research and refined it to make their VDNI. its listed as "prototype VDNI" in the OP's article. presumably due to it being named that in the recent rulebooks, the  Prometheus Unbound spurcebook just called it a direct neural interface.
VRPP got nerfed pretty hard in IO.

You'd be surprised, it's something they added to Airplane Control Yokes so Pilots can "feel" how the plane is flying despite it being a fly-by-wire system.
Plus it'd be a lot easier to implement than beaming a signal into the brain just for a notification buzz.
Again, those Plotonium Rays have to have some effect on the brain, and that alone is enough of an excuse to figure how that can be exploited!
Yet some makers like Airbus are removing force feedback, under the rational that the digital flight control system won't let the plane get into those bad states that a stick shaker would warn you about...

BattleTech writers aren't neuroscientists (at least, none are to my knowledge), the technology was drafted in an era where things like neurodivergence simply often weren't accounted for, and as with many of BattleTech's technologies that are as much fi as they are sci, they're probably never going to be fully explained simply because it would be restrictive on future writers and would most likely end up being proven horribly inaccurate to the point that it can't be taken seriously (see BattleTech's early attempts at drone tech).
The entire universe was built from a techno-illiterate perspective. But they were writers, not scientists and engineers. When somebody in my Electronics 101 class asked the proff what "opto-isolators" were used for, one of the first use cases was EEG leads.  It was a way to make it VIRTUALLY impossible for 120 VAC to find its way into the electrodes glued to a patient's temples.  Then again, it's pretty much a standard feature in fiction these days. If your robot has any kind of neural interface, you feel the damage, because drama.
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Whiteagle

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #39 on: 06 September 2022, 12:14:49 »
Yet some makers like Airbus are removing force feedback, under the rational that the digital flight control system won't let the plane get into those bad states that a stick shaker would warn you about...
But how will the pilot be able to make at-the-moment adjustments without that physical feedback?

The entire universe was built from a techno-illiterate perspective.
Which is weird because a lot of BattleTech Fluff centers around fairly hard Science Fiction, but some of the more basic assumptions on Tech are showing their 80's roots.

Then again, it's pretty much a standard feature in fiction these days. If your robot has any kind of neural interface, you feel the damage, because drama.
I personally don't mind sympathetic pain, but that does suggest Neurohelmets are a two-way Man-Machine Interface interacting directly with the Pilot's nervous system.
To suggest that sort of Technology wouldn't be used for Government Black Site Neuroscience Shenanigans is laughable to me.


Whiteagle

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #41 on: 06 September 2022, 13:44:19 »
Already there
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Neural_Interrogation_Computer
Except that's apparently using an entirely separate technology based in Subsonic signaling...

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #42 on: 06 September 2022, 18:45:09 »
Which is weird because a lot of BattleTech Fluff centers around fairly hard Science Fiction, but some of the more basic assumptions on Tech are showing their 80's roots.

While BT does keep one foot in hard sci-fi and is the last bastion for the Real Robot genre, it's not realistic and trying to make it realistic kills the setting very fast. You can write around allot of the more dated ideas as you can in Aliens and such without tossing out the baby with the bath water.

I mean, the only reason mechs have controls similar to a fighter jet is because people are already familiar with fighter jets thus it feel more grounded.     
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grimlock1

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Re: Neural Interfaces - How Plugged In Are YOU?
« Reply #43 on: 13 September 2022, 08:51:51 »
But how will the pilot be able to make at-the-moment adjustments without that physical feedback?
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/68278/what-is-the-motivation-behind-designing-a-control-stick-that-does-not-move
It's been in the F-16 since the early 80s. 

I have to yield to the expertise of actual pilots in most cases except some stuff Airbus does.  Airbus uses a side stick, that's under the left hand for the left side pilot, and the right hand for the other pilot.  So you need to learn to fly both lefty and righty. Not wild about that, but learning to be ambidextrous is good for you.  Builds character. But it's one of these fixed, force sensing sticks, and the inputs are "algebraically summed," so if one pilot pushes up, and the other pushes down, the plane goes straight. Yeah, that's the same way its been since forever, but previously you could feel the other pilot's inputs, or even see it in your peripheral vision. There is an audible indicator that both pilots are giving inputs, but imagine a crisis situation. 85% of the alarms, alerts, and voice messages, are all sounding at the same time.  I don't think this is the best possible setup but people who know more about the job have made this decision, so until I have more information, all I can say is that I don't understand the wisdom in this choice.

The F-16?  I probably would have argued against it, but hey, it seems to work.
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