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Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank  (Read 44159 times)

Jellico

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #180 on: 13 May 2022, 07:10:18 »
Yet another nail in the "Clans abhor waste" coffin.
There is a limit to how far you can redesign a Little Willie. The game isn't granular enough to identify the benefits and costs of IICs over new vehicles.

Colt Ward

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #181 on: 13 May 2022, 09:22:25 »
Yet another nail in the "Clans abhor waste" coffin.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #182 on: 13 May 2022, 09:36:39 »
Clans also hates vehicles until recently.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #183 on: 13 May 2022, 09:45:39 »
There is a limit to how far you can redesign a Little Willie. The game isn't granular enough to identify the benefits and costs of IICs over new vehicles.

Well, let's compare comparable Clan vehicles to their ancestors.

Oh right, they aren't related, right?

There are some Clan designs that are pretty obvious upgrades of previous SLDF designs.

The Donar is more or less a product improved Cyrano that corrects the basic design defects.

The Ares medium tank is clearly a product improved Manticore (a design from the Age of War, no less), right down to the weight-loss Clan IIC's usually follow (Phoenixhawk IIC being the exception).  There's Clan APC visibly descended from the Turhan, and so on.

There are a few that didn't get the IIC treatment (Fury, Alacorn, Rhino), but that's kind of to be expected.  The Clans developed a fetish for "big wheels up front" on their wheeled tanks, and that HAS to be some kind of cultural thing involving only using them on paved runways.  (Imperial russia demonstrated what's wrong with the 'Big wheels' back in the first world war.)

But while there are plenty of Clan designs that are more or less "What were the designers smoking/injecting/frying their brains on when they thought THAT was a good idea?" there are a few quite competent, even traditionalist, designs, and they DID keep a lot of SLDF hardware in stock.

Probably because it works fine just as it is.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #184 on: 13 May 2022, 09:52:24 »


The Ares medium tank is clearly a product improved Manticore (a design from the Age of War, no less), right down to the weight-loss Clan IIC's usually follow (Phoenixhawk IIC being the exception).  There's Clan APC visibly descended from the Turhan, and so on.

Warhammer and Marauder gained some weight as well.

Colt Ward

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #185 on: 13 May 2022, 09:56:51 »
Clans also hates vehicles until recently.

 . . . over 15+ years ago when MWDA came out?

Anyway . . . the Manticore EC is a pretty fun bit, used it on the table top a few weeks ago.

I actually think the Manticore EC's Enhanced ERPPC is a very interesting design choice and is a interesting option for trade offs.

Cannonshop-

The SLDF tank designs would also likely be improved in universe by being 1 off designs when it comes to repairs/replacements.  As the Clans progressed and armor got it's status downgraded the stocks of stored SL vehicles would have been raided for repair of the mechs.  As a Clan's touman grew or were like the Horses & Spirits which decided to use vehicles, those stripped out weapons would be replaced by Improved or Clan weapons . . . so a Spirit vehicle trinary could have two Schreks, one would have the standard PPCs while the other might have Improved PPCs because it's PPCs were pulled back during Klondike for repairs to a Awesome.

I would also not say the Ares is a Manticore- while it has mismatched LRM racks, the Manti has a Long & Short IIRC and the Ares is faster.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #186 on: 13 May 2022, 15:08:28 »
Clans also hates vehicles until recently.
*Angry horse noises*

Anyways, yeah, the lack of IIC vehicles is alarming. As I understand, a lot of the necessary niche-filling vehicles are still using pre-Exodus I.S. tech, unmodified (I believe there was mention somewhere of Clans using the Boomerang).
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Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #187 on: 13 May 2022, 15:19:23 »
. . . over 15+ years ago when MWDA came out?

Anyway . . . the Manticore EC is a pretty fun bit, used it on the table top a few weeks ago.

I actually think the Manticore EC's Enhanced ERPPC is a very interesting design choice and is a interesting option for trade offs.

Cannonshop-

The SLDF tank designs would also likely be improved in universe by being 1 off designs when it comes to repairs/replacements.  As the Clans progressed and armor got it's status downgraded the stocks of stored SL vehicles would have been raided for repair of the mechs.  As a Clan's touman grew or were like the Horses & Spirits which decided to use vehicles, those stripped out weapons would be replaced by Improved or Clan weapons . . . so a Spirit vehicle trinary could have two Schreks, one would have the standard PPCs while the other might have Improved PPCs because it's PPCs were pulled back during Klondike for repairs to a Awesome.

I would also not say the Ares is a Manticore- while it has mismatched LRM racks, the Manti has a Long & Short IIRC and the Ares is faster.

and that would ALSO be in keeping with Clan IIC design doctrines-lighter AND faster, and as the LRM racks have no minimums and it's easier to feed one type of ammo rather than two..

the basic configuration and role are similar enough to be a close match in the same way that the Donar shed close to 30% of the mass of a Cyrano, added secondary weapons, and dropped 20-something KPH in speed, but follows the basic concepts with the energy main gun on a scout VTOL (they just added a couple SRM racks the Cyrano didn't have, and a hell of a lot more protection in the form of armor-something that wasn't really present on SLDF designs)

I mean, consider your IIC 'mech designs like the Shadowhawk IIC, which loses 10 tons and gains 10KPH on the walk, or the Great Wyrm, which is a IIC of the original Dragon design that loses 10KPH and 20 tons.

Or the Hephaestus hovertank, which is basically a Kanga redesigned by someone both sane and intelligent.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #188 on: 13 May 2022, 16:31:06 »
and that would ALSO be in keeping with Clan IIC design doctrines-lighter AND faster, and as the LRM racks have no minimums and it's easier to feed one type of ammo rather than two..

the basic configuration and role are similar enough to be a close match in the same way that the Donar shed close to 30% of the mass of a Cyrano, added secondary weapons, and dropped 20-something KPH in speed, but follows the basic concepts with the energy main gun on a scout VTOL (they just added a couple SRM racks the Cyrano didn't have, and a hell of a lot more protection in the form of armor-something that wasn't really present on SLDF designs)

I mean, consider your IIC 'mech designs like the Shadowhawk IIC, which loses 10 tons and gains 10KPH on the walk, or the Great Wyrm, which is a IIC of the original Dragon design that loses 10KPH and 20 tons.

Or the Hephaestus hovertank, which is basically a Kanga redesigned by someone both sane and intelligent.

They're all over the place, mechwise:

IICs with mass gain:

Locust IIC
Marauder IIC
Phoenix Hawk IIC
Rifleman IIC
Thunderbolt IIC
Warhammer IIC

IICs with mass loss:

Griffin IIC
Shadowhawk IIC

IICs at same mass as predecessor:

Clint IIC
Commando IIC
Guillotine IIC
Highlander IIC
Hunchback IIC
Jenner IIC
Orion IIC
Stinger IIC
Urbanmech IIC
Viking IIC
Wyvern IIC
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #189 on: 14 May 2022, 06:45:27 »
Guys?

Manticore. Stick to Manticores. Let's take thread-hijacks about Clan upgrades to other machines to their own thread.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #190 on: 20 May 2022, 16:49:36 »
The Clans weren't super focused on vehicles, given the fominance of Battlemechs/Omnimechs and Elementals in the toumans. That's why you don't see many Clan vehicles until after the invasion, with the exception of Blood Spirit (by tradition and resource limitation) and Hell's Horses (by design and tactics.)  Vehicles also became more needed due to the rapid expansion of the Invader Clans' PGCs in the Inner Sphere, as well as the disruptions to supply chains from the Homeworlds.  A Clan Manticore would probably come about from either Hell's Horses or Blood Spirit, and carry an LRM-20, a Streak 6, an ER Large or ER PPC depending on the heat sinks, and possibly an ER Medium if they put the effort in for an XL.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #191 on: 20 May 2022, 18:51:41 »
There is a limit to how far you can redesign a Little Willie. The game isn't granular enough to identify the benefits and costs of IICs over new vehicles.

did they do the IIC makeover for non-'mechs? i thought it was a vanity project by the star-league obcessed clans to maintain the image of their forebears (while also refusing to scarifice their clearly superiour designs and weapons for it, in true powergamer fashion)
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SteelRaven

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #192 on: 20 May 2022, 22:07:16 »
did they do the IIC makeover for non-'mechs?

No, the Clans some very weird vehicles and few cool ones in the later years of Fasa as TRO filler followed by better ones later. My apologies to Hells Horses fans but it's clear that Clan vehicles was a after though to Fasa as IIC SLDF vehicles make more sense than some of the Clan Veh's that we did end up getting.
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Caedis Animus

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #193 on: 21 May 2022, 02:12:41 »
No, the Clans some very weird vehicles and few cool ones in the later years of Fasa as TRO filler followed by better ones later. My apologies to Hells Horses fans but it's clear that Clan vehicles was a after though to Fasa as IIC SLDF vehicles make more sense than some of the Clan Veh's that we did end up getting.
Yeah, that was pretty much the entire point I was trying to make earlier. I feel like they'd essentially just universally receive basic Clanspec upgrades instead of designing all-new units.

IE, Manticore 'IIC' would really just be a Manticore with Clanspec guns and something to fill in the tonnage gap made by the lighter armament. It strikes me as more wasteful to design vehicles for a role that your Clan doesn't care much about compared to the glorious mechjock, and less wasteful than just producing the crappy IS Star League version with the same relatively lackluster guns.

That said, the Manticore is still really okay. A star of the things isn't exactly a fun experience for anyone, if you were using Clanspace counts.
« Last Edit: 21 May 2022, 02:14:41 by Caedis Animus »

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #194 on: 21 May 2022, 21:08:26 »
FASA was pretty anti-vehicle as a whole at the time the Clans where add, there where a few in TRO:3025 and then they got their own TRO in TRO:3026, but then they where absent from TRO's 2750, 3050, and 3055

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #195 on: 21 May 2022, 21:52:16 »
FASA was pretty anti-vehicle as a whole at the time the Clans where add, there where a few in TRO:3025 and then they got their own TRO in TRO:3026, but then they where absent from TRO's 2750, 3050, and 3055

Um, vehicles were most certainly NOT absent from TRO:2750. The others you mention, yes.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #196 on: 21 May 2022, 22:16:21 »
It is a Mech based game so Mechs are prioritized.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #197 on: 22 May 2022, 02:12:55 »
Indeed, they made up a fair portion of 2750, though for years that book had limited utility for most players given its era, so it was widely derided as "the TRO we can't use*" in at least two gaming circles I was a part of.

In universe, it makes absolutely perfect sense that conventional AFVs were not present in 3050/5 since the tech was just being rolled out into field units/operations and everyone and their brother and sister were concentrating on upgrading their front-line (BattleMech and nascent OmniMech) forces because that was where the majority of the combat power would receive the most return for the relative minimum of expenditure.



*"Can't use" in a broad sense, because we played campaigns in general, and along with the timeline more germanely. Of course, they could be used as game units, but nobody I knew did so for a long time. And when they were released as UnSeen replacements in 3025R, well, then there was a backlash against them in some circles, so they didn't get used again for some time.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #198 on: 22 May 2022, 11:20:37 »
Um, vehicles were most certainly NOT absent from TRO:2750. The others you mention, yes.

cheers,

Gabe

Correct.

There were a grand total of TWO TRO's that didn't have Vehicles  (3050/3055)
And prior to that, ONE TRO that didn't have Mechs (3026)
Hardly a "we hate vehicles" endorsement.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #199 on: 22 May 2022, 11:26:16 »
Indeed, they made up a fair portion of 2750, though for years that book had limited utility for most players given its era, so it was widely derided as "the TRO we can't use*" in at least two gaming circles I was a part of.

This boggles me since 2750 & 3050 were released "less than a year?" apart from each other IIRC.
How you "can't" use them when they were introduced (historically) & reintroduced (currently) right after each other is beyond me unless you stayed in 3025 forever.
Heck, 2 of them were fluffed as still being in production IIRC even before the TRO3025R came out.
(Guillotine from House Marik & Champion from TRO2750 itself.)
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #200 on: 22 May 2022, 11:39:45 »
I don't have design software currently & I don't see it in the article on Page-1 but did any of the upgrades get CASE?
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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Failure16

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #201 on: 22 May 2022, 14:03:48 »
EDIT: For the preservation of this thread, I will abstain from further commentary along this line, though others should feel free to rebut my views as they see fit.

Topically, the Manticore has been my conception of a BTU MBT since MW1E and likely always will be. I am so looking forward to the revised models I find it hard to believe!

This boggles me since 2750 & 3050 were released "less than a year?" apart from each other IIRC.
How you "can't" use them when they were introduced (historically) & reintroduced (currently) right after each other is beyond me unless you stayed in 3025 forever.
Heck, 2 of them were fluffed as still being in production IIRC even before the TRO3025R came out.
(Guillotine from House Marik & Champion from TRO2750 itself.)

Because none of the groups I played with departed from the contemporaneous timelines: it was 3025 until it was the 4th SW, then it was the Clan Invasion. (And there was a groovy Solaris VII campaign that ran for a long, long time spanning from MW1E to well past the boxed set release). It never really occurred to us to play in the Star league era (and still doesn't, to me) and like you said yourself, 2750 and 3050 were close enough in the real-world* that it was time to get slaughtered by the Clans. Who had time to play with machines no one had** since the real choices were running the derelicts you had dragged through the 3rd/4th Succession Wars or cadging some new-tech upgrades from an unwary House procurement office[r]?


*TRO 2750 was released in 1989, TRO 3050 in 1990. Given the vagaries of life, release dates, and the state of the world back then (no internet, finding things by chance in bookstores because game stores were not A Thing for me nor my friends), the release dates were at least a year between availability, not 'less than'.

**I think you should reread 2750 for yourself; there is no indication any of those designs survived as viable entities into 3025. The Champion's line about production is clearly written in the 2750-era tense; every other entry has a bracketed Editorial entry discussing times after the SLDF era.

As an aside, it might be worth noting that while the ComGuards became official in the 20 Year Update (FASA 1639, dated 1989), I can't ever remember anyone actually considering them to be a playable faction until maybe ComStar (FASA 1655, dated 1992) was released, but more likely not until Tukayyid (FASA 1685, dated 1994). Nearly twenty years later, after the FedCom civil War, Jihad, etcetera, that may seem strange. But back then, they were just people who were in the background and assumed to be awesome enough that it wouldn't pay to go against them except in some specialized RPG campaign. Besides, 3025-era players still remembered that attacking ComStar was the prelude to a Series of Unfortunate Events for your faction...
« Last Edit: 22 May 2022, 14:07:53 by Failure16 »
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #202 on: 25 May 2022, 15:16:59 »
I have seen this thread pop back up, and at first, I didn't see much to contribute.
I went back, and reread the whole thing, and had a sudden idea.
It concerns the 3058 Version.... with the LPL
I think I know what it was supposed to do, fight elementals. At the time of the invasion, most Clan warriors considered tanks "less honorable", and that would include fighting them, Which has more honor, killing a Hermes, or a Manticore? So, vehicles were left to elementals to deal with. And, in that era, the pulse laser, and streak srm were seen as the weapons for fighting those... hence, an LRM to contribute to the battle, and the rest for fighting the "toads" that would be coming for you.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #203 on: 25 May 2022, 15:35:39 »
I have seen this thread pop back up, and at first, I didn't see much to contribute.
I went back, and reread the whole thing, and had a sudden idea.
It concerns the 3058 Version.... with the LPL
I think I know what it was supposed to do, fight elementals. At the time of the invasion, most Clan warriors considered tanks "less honorable", and that would include fighting them, Which has more honor, killing a Hermes, or a Manticore? So, vehicles were left to elementals to deal with. And, in that era, the pulse laser, and streak srm were seen as the weapons for fighting those... hence, an LRM to contribute to the battle, and the rest for fighting the "toads" that would be coming for you.

Nahuris

It was quite a while ago, but I recall reading in some thread here that IS LPLs were fairly effective against Protomechs as well, so the 3058 model could find some use fighting those too.

cheers,

Gabe
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--Arkansas Warrior, on the possibility of carrying Dropships as cargo in Warship cargo bays.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #204 on: 25 May 2022, 16:35:11 »
The LPL & SRMs is actually a very potent combo for Elementals
3041: General Lance Hawkins: The Equalizers
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #205 on: 25 May 2022, 19:23:53 »
The LPL & SRMs is actually a very potent combo for Elementals

A standard PPC has the same to hit numbers as an IS LPL save at range 7, and 3 or less.  Frankly I'd rather the longer reach of a PPC to soften them up before they got close.  And make a main battle tank rather than a close range focus of the 3058 refit.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #206 on: 26 May 2022, 00:42:58 »
i generally assumed the LPL refit was to make it easier to use against the clans. the invasion showed that the best place to fight the clans was in rugged terrain or urban areas, where the longer clan weapons ranges cease to be a force multiplier, and their generally higher ground speeds/mobility is less useful. even with more advance tech designs being produced and fielded, that approach would remain the best option.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Manticore Heavy Tank
« Reply #207 on: 26 May 2022, 13:30:32 »
A standard PPC has the same to hit numbers as an IS LPL save at range 7, and 3 or less.  Frankly I'd rather the longer reach of a PPC to soften them up before they got close.  And make a main battle tank rather than a close range focus of the 3058 refit.



i generally assumed the LPL refit was to make it easier to use against the clans. the invasion showed that the best place to fight the clans was in rugged terrain or urban areas, where the longer clan weapons ranges cease to be a force multiplier, and their generally higher ground speeds/mobility is less useful. even with more advance tech designs being produced and fielded, that approach would remain the best option.


This.

Its not that the LPL is great on paper, its where you end up "playing the game" a lot of the time.

The LRMs still soften up at range & the Elementals are LOOKING to get into SL/Flamer/MG range w/ you where the LPL will cut them apart.
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