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Author Topic: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank  (Read 20836 times)

Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #90 on: 23 March 2023, 12:15:24 »
Well, with the Ultra-10 discussion wrapped up and the Yellow Jacket having its own thread elsewhere, I guess that means getting back to discussing the Patton.  :)

and noting for reiteration that I'm a fan of at least ONE new variant of that chassis-the Taurian one, with the right gun for the job. :)
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Minemech

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #91 on: 23 March 2023, 19:15:00 »
The UAC Patton is simply a solid tank upgrade, and one that could outperform a Gauss Rifle in many common battlefield circumstances. The election toward the UAC points to battlefield considerations, namely built-up areas, where your ability to deal more damage in less time is oft the path to success.

Taron Storm

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #92 on: 23 March 2023, 20:56:45 »
Have always loved the Patton.  I use the Standard, with or without special ammo depending on the era.  LB is fun for sandblasting, vehicle hunting, and anything that flies.  For the non-cannon, love both of Cannonshops designs for the Ngo-verse.  The Ultra, to me, is an one trick pony.  The only thing it can do, is fire Ultra mode the entire time to have a chance of influencing the outcome.  I prefer campaign style games, so the benefits of having more capability is a must.  The few times I have used the Ultra was in one off games and duels, mostly just to try something different. 
  This is just my two cents after enjoying this game for nearly 40 years.
« Last Edit: 23 March 2023, 21:22:07 by Taron Storm »

Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #93 on: 24 March 2023, 13:59:05 »
The UAC Patton is simply a solid tank upgrade, and one that could outperform a Gauss Rifle in many common battlefield circumstances. The election toward the UAC points to battlefield considerations, namely built-up areas, where your ability to deal more damage in less time is oft the path to success.

YOu mean, those built up areas where infantry can vape through all those buildings and out maneuver your track, hit you from off angle, and your extra hole-punching doesn't influence the terrain?  Those urban areas?

YOu know, those places where VTOLs can hunt you down, but you can't get a solid lock with your big, jammy machine gun??

THOSE urban areas?

Here's your problem: Ultras are Duelling machines, meant for and optimized for 'in the open in the ring' fights against single opponents.  The odds of a jam on ultra are 1 in 36, and you have to go back to the repair shop to get it unjammed.  On a non-jamming roll, you only hit with both rounds around 50% of the time, out of those, you've got a miniscule chance that both rounds will hit the same location.

Most of the time, they won't.

OR, you can use a gauss rifle, and do headcapper damage every time you hit, without the extra roll, and without the jamming that puts your main gun out of action.

OR, you can use an LBX and you'll get more criticals against other vehicles, an improved effectiveness against both jumpy 'mechs (which are the usual 'choice' for close urban) or VTOLs (including spotters) plus a better spread of damage against infantry (the nightmare forces of urban warfare) and it fires every time there's ammo and you can pull the trigger, without the jamming side-effect that requires going back to the depot to get your turret pulled and your main gun cleared.

The shot you can't fire can't do damage, the shots you miss, use ammo, and don't do damage.  Running out of ammo in close urban is BAD, so the deeper your ammo bay is, the better off you are if you have the armor to use it, and if you're retiring from the field one out of 36 times you enter an engagement, you're losing battles you might have won  Without benefit of the enemy helping you lose those battles.

so I'm not a fan of self-sabotage when looking at the expensive end of unit design.  I tend not to think in terms of "Wow this is a great duelling machine" but instead on "how versatile is this in the context of a group of units working together?" and "how reliable is this system compared to similar systems in the same role?"

Which tends to lead to "What is the role? and can I do it cheaper/faster/better with something else?"

I also tend to look at things within the context of what works-not so much individually, but in the context of what works well with other units by either filling a role, or being flexible enough to be credible in SEVERAL roles-even if the second is 'not as powerful as a specialist in that position'.

The base model Patton is a flexible machine that fills multiple roles.  the Taurian refit with LBX is a flexible machine that is credible in several positions.

Patton Ultra? not so much-it's a Tank Destroyer with an unreliable main gun, sitting in the SAME role position as the extremely reliable Rommel Guass from the same manufacturer in the same faction.

This makes it not only redundant, but inferior in its redundancy, and worse...

It's expensive.  Expensive to buy, own, operate, and maintain, with a more demanding maintenance curve because you have to almost rebuild the main gun on a frequent basis in exchange for burning through more ammo for the same general outcome and effect.

It's expensive in terms of what it takes from the table every time that main gun fails, it's expensive in terms of the lost personnel, skill base, training time, and so on that comes when I need the tank, and it isn't there because it's unreliable.

It's expensive in terms of unit cohesion in a campaign setting, unit (not vehicle) effectiveness thanks to unreliability and failures in the field, in games with morale factors it's a morale deficit, because the crew can't count on their vehicle, and the other vehicles can't count on that crew.

but for a duel? well, anything that has potential damage is fine in a duel, because of the nature of duelling.

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GreekFire

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #94 on: 24 March 2023, 14:06:49 »
Nvm.
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #95 on: 24 March 2023, 18:19:04 »
The Ultra-10 isn't a great weapon.
Its not "bad"  (Heavy MG), its just not as good as the LB10X in terms of "Efficiency"

Getting to the Patton, the Ultra upgrade isn't "Bad" either.
Its an upgrade for a MBT designed to go toe-to-toe with Mechs out on an open battlefield. 
With that in mind, a 2-tap of 10 pointers to trigger a PSR is on a heavy mech is not a bad thing to have in your pocket.
I'd never call a Patton my "Urban Defense" Militia go-to.   (Not even a Rommel, but at least that one is closer w/ the AC20)

The real issue just comes down to lack of a decent LB10X (simple & obvious) refit available in an era of refits, IE, Late-40's to Early-50's.
The Patton is hardly the only example of a "Missing" unit in would fill in the evolution of the design.
The game is full of stuff like that.   (IE. too many examples to list)

With the use of advanced AC ammo options the basic Patton is honestly still my favorite.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #96 on: 24 March 2023, 20:59:21 »
The Ultra-10 isn't a great weapon.
Its not "bad"  (Heavy MG), its just not as good as the LB10X in terms of "Efficiency"

Getting to the Patton, the Ultra upgrade isn't "Bad" either.
Its an upgrade for a MBT designed to go toe-to-toe with Mechs out on an open battlefield. 
With that in mind, a 2-tap of 10 pointers to trigger a PSR is on a heavy mech is not a bad thing to have in your pocket.
I'd never call a Patton my "Urban Defense" Militia go-to.   (Not even a Rommel, but at least that one is closer w/ the AC20)

The real issue just comes down to lack of a decent LB10X (simple & obvious) refit available in an era of refits, IE, Late-40's to Early-50's.
The Patton is hardly the only example of a "Missing" unit in would fill in the evolution of the design.
The game is full of stuff like that.   (IE. too many examples to list)

With the use of advanced AC ammo options the basic Patton is honestly still my favorite.

it's a relative thing.  The increased damage in a duel doesn't, to me, make up for the operational shortcomings in what would be actual combat-at least, not for the sticker price.  A better fit for an Ultra would be an ICE powered unit intended to be rapidly disposable, like a Hetzer, not something you count on to be your wingman or have your back when facing a superior opponent such as the Clan front, because the drawback might only be a hair over 3% of the time, but it's THERE and the double-punch of a double-tap isn't reliable. (only rounds that hit, do damage).

Relatively speaking, it's 'an' upgrade-that reduces the usefulness of the chassis in kind of combat roles that it's supposed to fill in a 'verse with Battlemechs, and worse to me still, it's a redundant one-that being, it's competing for the same role with another design from the same corporation for service in the same military.

The base 3025 models actually had separate, though overlapping, roles.  The 3025 Patton was the offensive Tank,  that is, a tank that is useful both on offense and defense as a general-purpose trooper design with an adequate main gun, able to perform additionally as fire-support, while the 3025 Rommel was an infighter and "hammer" for close range work in urban areas, but not a generalist, more like a purpose-built anti-'mech platform with a headcapper that can cause PSR's, but with enough mobility that it doesn't immediately get left behind by lancemates of the same general weight.  (4/6 for both chassis).

The Patton Ultra and the Rommel Gauss are fighting for the same role, with largely teh same secondary weapons pack, and in that role, Rommel Gauss is more likely to deliver the goods on a consistent basis-making it a better killer, even if it doesn't have that instant-on PSR, because it can deliver consistently as long as it has ammunition.

Patton Ultra is unreliable in delivering the damage-it can, through no fault of the crew or action of the enemy, simply stop working and do so often enough to be more than a fraction of a percent of rarity in failing...and it needs to go back to the maintenance shop to unstick a jam.

Meaning it can't reliably deliver that pain, even with a full ammuntion magazine.

This makes tactical employment...difficult.  Complex, and complicated.  You can't put it on the line and get reliable results when everyone is doing their jobs correctly.

this isn't a problem for the kind of suicide units you give Hetzers to.  It IS a problem when the chassis costs as much as a Patton's costs, with the kind of investment present in the REST of the chassis (thick armor, fusion power plant, adequate speed and terrain handling for offense operations..)

you feel me?  You put an Ultra on a Hetzer because a Hetzer's whole purpose in life, is to last long enough to cause a PSR, and you can fit several times as many shots into the same weight as the main gun on a Hetzer. with more shots possible and more shots that will hit. (UAC 10=13 tons, AC/20=15 tons, 1 ton AC/10 ammo is 10 shots, 1 ton AC/20 ammo is 5.  AC/20 maxes at 9 hexes, UAC/10 at 18.)

THAT is a good swap.  It extends the lifespan of the unit carrying it, does the damage, and the unit's cheap enough that the jamming issue is a lot LESS of an issue, since the previous model wasn't going to last long anyway and costs significantly less for the base chassis...and you can play with tonnage to give it 'survival' systems or more armor or a better engine.

On the Patton, the Ultra requires losing secondary weapons, and reducing armor, for an unreliable main gun that can take it out of useful combat roles randomly, while also narrowing operational roles versus the originating design.

Patton (base) can lay down smoke to obscure friendly movement, it can set fires (I know, they moved the intentional fires rules to optional..so?),  it 'goes bang when you pull the trigger' reliably, meaning in the event of a motive crit, it can bunker and still provide an influence on the battlefield that isn't "is that the start of a rout?"

it's a stronger over all player than the "Upgrade".

and the base model, a stronger generalist player in a design that began as a generalist design, costs less to field, and to maintain, and puts your maintainers at lower risk, than the 'upgrade', while not competing with the Rommel for the same role on the field, or in procurement, or in training.

it's like somebody forgot that vehicles are supposed to work together in groups, and rushed instead to go for a Solaris championship design (whie failing to achieve that.)

Patton Ultra can't lay smoke, it can't screen friendlies, it's visibly unreliable in the field with a defect that is guaranteed to manifest right when you REALLY want your main gun to go 'bang' (aka a malfunction that shows up most often IN COMBAT and can't be cured by good maintenance or proper handling by the crew).

and it costs more.

Thus the comment about backhanders and bribery and unethical executives taking advantage of a national crisis to sell bad goods at a markup.

such things are NOT unprecedented, there were a great many gunmakers in the American Civil War who had initially promising looking designs, that due to various factors wound up being expensive, unreliable junk.  a lot of modern procurement policies came from that experience, and similar experiences by the British in the 1940s ( Valiant).

while not a BAD tank, it's a poor choice for the era, and for the role, as well as for the conflict it was adopted to fight.  Conventional forces in the Clan invasion era often WERE the 'rear guard' that let the 'mechwarriors flee the Wolf or Jade Falcon onslaught.

This is a role where when your main gun fails to go 'bang' and you still have ammunition? you've failed your mission, and done so potentially catastrophically-when covering the retreat of valuable 'mechwarriors, you want the gun to go 'bang' until it's empty, because every 'bang' it gives, gives a few seconds to the guys you're covering, or buys a chance for you, and your crew, to actually get out of this alive.

When on the offense, against an enemy that is tougher, more mobile, has more range and is a better shot, having your gun go 'jam' doesn't let your secondary weapons buy you escape time to the rear to get it unjammed, it means you're not covering fire for your buddies, it means you can't cover your own retreat.

it means you fail your mission, and you can't blame poor maintenance or lax standards for the failure, because it's literally your hardware decideing to fail at the worst possible time.

why do I harp on 'worst possible time'? because that's when you're going to be FIRING at double-rate.  you don't flick the giggle-switch when you need to conserve ammo, you're firing in ultra mode because you're trying to stay alive.

Maybe part of the reason it doesn't have a bad rep, as someone pointed out it doesn't, is because those failures happen to occur right before the crew gets their case expedited before their Deity of Choice for final judgment, and the battle was lost, so nobody's alive to file a failure report to ordnance?



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Hellraiser

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #97 on: 24 March 2023, 21:19:12 »
The Patton Ultra and the Rommel Gauss are fighting for the same role, with largely teh same secondary weapons pack, and in that role, Rommel Gauss is more likely to deliver the goods on a consistent basis-making it a better killer, even if it doesn't have that instant-on PSR, because it can deliver consistently as long as it has ammunition.

....

you feel me?  You put an Ultra on a Hetzer because a Hetzer's whole purpose in life, is to last long enough to cause a PSR, and you can fit several times as many shots into the same weight as the main gun on a Hetzer. with more shots possible and more shots that will hit. (UAC 10=13 tons, AC/20=15 tons, 1 ton AC/10 ammo is 10 shots, 1 ton AC/20 ammo is 5.  AC/20 maxes at 9 hexes, UAC/10 at 18.)

...

why do I harp on 'worst possible time'? because that's when you're going to be FIRING at double-rate.  you don't flick the giggle-switch when you need to conserve ammo, you're firing in ultra mode because you're trying to stay alive.

1.  Agreed on the same role issue, I noticed that when they came out decades ago, they felt a lot less "different" than they had before.

2.  I like this, there was some thread about weapon upgrades w/o being able to use DHS & one if the best I came up with, that didn't involve an LB10X or Streak SRMs, was the Intro Hunchback & swapping the AC20 for an Ultra-10.  That particular swap just works.  Which is why the Ultra would have felt good on the Rommel to me but I hate it on the Patton.  (Not to mention in 3060 the U10 was a Marik design IIRC, might have spread to the Lyrans, but, it would have been NEW)

3.  I will say the Jamming Ultra isn't quite as big a deal after I read a post a while back about why the UA5 wasn't all that bad.
It had some good points about having double the firepower for the cost of 1 ton.
Yeah, it might jam on you but the ability to double tap for 1 ton isn't a bad choice over all.
When most live games at my FLGS last 5-15 turns the odds of loosing the UA aren't very high, at least not before you've gotten your money's worth out of it in clearing ammo out.

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Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #98 on: 24 March 2023, 22:29:14 »
1.  Agreed on the same role issue, I noticed that when they came out decades ago, they felt a lot less "different" than they had before.

2.  I like this, there was some thread about weapon upgrades w/o being able to use DHS & one if the best I came up with, that didn't involve an LB10X or Streak SRMs, was the Intro Hunchback & swapping the AC20 for an Ultra-10.  That particular swap just works.  Which is why the Ultra would have felt good on the Rommel to me but I hate it on the Patton.  (Not to mention in 3060 the U10 was a Marik design IIRC, might have spread to the Lyrans, but, it would have been NEW)

3.  I will say the Jamming Ultra isn't quite as big a deal after I read a post a while back about why the UA5 wasn't all that bad.
It had some good points about having double the firepower for the cost of 1 ton.
Yeah, it might jam on you but the ability to double tap for 1 ton isn't a bad choice over all.
When most live games at my FLGS last 5-15 turns the odds of loosing the UA aren't very high, at least not before you've gotten your money's worth out of it in clearing ammo out.

UAC-5 is a brilliant weapon for something like a Vedette or scorpion, because those are already anemic and likely to die quickly regardless of wha they do and everybody knows it.

A vedette laying down ten points before falling back, without needing 12 tons of gun to do it? sure.

IT's even MORE brilliant on a hovertank that isn't going to be laying down sustained fire anyway, because that's not the role.

but on a 4/6 and 65 ton fusion powered chassis, the Ultra 10 is basically a duellist for duels.  then again, my own perspective often has the first 5 to 10 turns being movement to contact or positioning with some light, long range fire, or the occasional opportunity shot, before things close to hammer-time with anything genuinely heavy and often it's linked to things like 'campaign objectives' rather than 'win this duel'.

that in turn leads to VERY different priorities from what I have grown to consider a "Solaris fight" (one mapsheet, equal numbers and a time limit).

Try this : Inner sphere vs Clan, Inner sphere's lost the main battle and is in retreat, your force has to cover the withdrawal of the 'mechwarriors.  (this happened several times in the Invasion, and in the Falcon incursion).

then, total up how often you're losing units to malfunctions vs. enemy action, or where malfunctions became a turning point.

try also: some rolling battles where you're either in pursuit, or pursuing, or where you need to break through a defensive line vrs. holding a defensive line against a breakthrough.

Using tanks with Ultras, versus other types of tank.

there really aren't a lot of scenarios where that Ultra is a better weapon than an LBX or even Standard autocannon until you get down to the class-5s, and even FEWER where it's a better weapon than a gauss rifle with an equivalent number of shots in the ammo bin.

There's the theoretical: an Ultra has twice the damage potential over a standard autocannon and a hair more range, it has significantly more damage potential than an LBX firing cluster.

These are not debatable, that's hard numbers.

What doesn't roll into that theorycrafting, is how often that potential is realized versus what you're giving up to get it.  An LBX-10 might average 7 damage in one point groups, but those seven hits will pop tyres, jam turrets, stun crews, shear treads, immobilize, and mission kill vehicles.  They'll annihilate platoons of infantry for all practical purposes, knock VTOLs out of the sky with a bonus to hit adding to the fun thanks to 30% or so of a VTOL's hit locations being 'rotor' and they can golden-BB an Aerofighter (resulting in deconstructive lithobraking).

On the field, that means you have more potential to mission kill enemies. (one point bonk on the head and a missed PSR and the pilot's knocked out, one point bop to the CT on a 2 and you may have given him a heat bath and engine hit, or knocked his gyroscope over...)

The Potentials balance out if the mission isn't "Render everything into unsalvageable smoking wreckage".

The problem is the practical, which doesn't always match neat mathematical formulas and often doesn't come up if you're used to matches that last around fifteen minutes or less on a single mapsheet.

Cripple the tank (which is really what most of your fire is going to do under tW) and now it can't withdraw for repair, and the gun's jammed so it's not much use as a bunker.

flip side: standard AC? or LBX? can keep going as long as the ammo feeds if it's not destroyed by enemy action.  That's a lot of time to buy your buddies that are bugging out.  It's a simple matter of you can't do damage if you're not firing, which in turn means you can't hold that fording point on the river, if you can't fire, you can't screen the retreating planetary duke, if you can't fire.

You can't turn a retreat into a rally, if you can't fire.

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MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #99 on: 24 March 2023, 22:33:09 »
Can we just stop arguing about the Ultra 10, maybe?  Or take it to a different thread?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #100 on: 24 March 2023, 22:37:00 »
++MODERATOR NOTICE++

Agreed. Everyone involved has said their peace many times over. Move on or start a new thread, because as of this moment, that discussion is done in here.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #101 on: 27 March 2023, 09:41:48 »
Did we get a picture of the new Patton mini?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #102 on: 27 March 2023, 13:15:23 »
Did we get a picture of the new Patton mini?

http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2450/patton-tank

Here it is. It is gorgeous.  :thumbsup:
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #103 on: 27 March 2023, 13:19:47 »
Not the art, I was asking if they had a mini print- like the orange prototypes- with them announcing they will roll out in the KS.
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Death_from_above

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #104 on: 27 March 2023, 13:27:40 »
Not the art, I was asking if they had a mini print- like the orange prototypes- with them announcing they will roll out in the KS.

Um.. did I miss something ? The last announced ForcePack has the Hetzer, Bulldog, Von Luckner and SturmFeur.

AFAIK, no official confirmation that the Patton will show up.. so far.

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #105 on: 27 March 2023, 13:43:12 »
Ah, I was skimming this weekend . . . I thought the Patton was on the list?
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #106 on: 27 March 2023, 13:46:02 »
Unfortunately not yet.

I was hoping it would be in the 4M ForcePack, but they went with the Bulldog as mook tank..

« Last Edit: 27 March 2023, 13:49:57 by Death_from_above »

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #107 on: 27 March 2023, 14:20:17 »
http://masterunitlist.info/Unit/Details/2450/patton-tank

Here it is. It is gorgeous.  :thumbsup:

Beauty...is definitely in the eye of the beholder.  Though it IS better than some of the stuff that has passed as art over the years (looking at you, Ares tank!!)
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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #108 on: 27 March 2023, 20:18:53 »
Unfortunately not yet.

I was hoping it would be in the 4M ForcePack, but they went with the Bulldog as mook tank..

which is kind of annoying "here's a rifle lance, which is a davion specific thing, with a tank mostly associated with House Kurita" :)

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #109 on: 28 March 2023, 09:03:34 »
which is kind of annoying "here's a rifle lance, which is a davion specific thing, with a tank mostly associated with House Kurita" :)

actually, the bulldog's entry in TRO 3026 (the original, at least) emphasizes Davion usage, while the TRO 3025 entry on the Rommel/Patton goes at length about that design's Lyran origin and pedigree.

Regardless of what MUL, or later pubs did, then, they may have based it on successful usage from the original fluff texts instead. Hence, Bulldog being a Davion tank for purposes of the product, instead of a Lyran import.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #110 on: 28 March 2023, 13:20:41 »
actually, the bulldog's entry in TRO 3026 (the original, at least) emphasizes Davion usage, while the TRO 3025 entry on the Rommel/Patton goes at length about that design's Lyran origin and pedigree.

Regardless of what MUL, or later pubs did, then, they may have based it on successful usage from the original fluff texts instead. Hence, Bulldog being a Davion tank for purposes of the product, instead of a Lyran import.

I was talking the Von Lucker

Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #111 on: 28 March 2023, 13:25:38 »
I was talking the Von Lucker

Oh.  I suppose the Davions picked up quite a few in the 4th succession war and war of 3039 then.

And the Vonnie is an OG assault tank, while davion forces aren't renowned for their Assault Tank branch until a bit later, iirc.

meanwhile the Rommel/Patton is merely a heavy tank, not an assault model at all.  The Dev staff went through a LOT of trouble to make 3/5 viable, and thus, assault tanks no longer a waste of time, bv and c-bills.  it makes sense they'd want to highlight one in the favorite faction.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #112 on: 28 March 2023, 13:34:01 »
also it should be noted the rifle lance is basicly an autocanon focused lance so I assume the rifle lance is the 2 von luckers and 2 Hezters.

Which admittingly is going to be a hell of a nasty ambush urban force.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #113 on: 28 March 2023, 14:36:38 »
Short of a quad Demolisher lance, there's not much that would be less pleasant.
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Colt Ward

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #114 on: 31 March 2023, 12:27:40 »


Upper left image is the new Patton art.

Nice enough, but I am digging that Pike!
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Cannonshop

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Re: Vehicle of the Week: Patton Tank
« Reply #115 on: 31 March 2023, 13:53:41 »
NOICE!!!!
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