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Author Topic: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)  (Read 3577 times)

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #30 on: 11 October 2021, 14:34:18 »
It's a (mis-)blending of two rule sets.  Snub-nosed PPCs are known for a long "short" range.  Infantry weapon range is based entirely on the short range band. Combine the two, and you get snubbies with longer range than regulars when used by infantry.  If range is what you're going for, you're better off with Sniper Rifles for your secondaries, as they don't impact your mobility.  Niops should have access to at least one design of the Wilimton or the SLDF version of the FNF-J12.

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #31 on: 11 October 2021, 15:13:45 »
It's a (mis-)blending of two rule sets.  Snub-nosed PPCs are known for a long "short" range.  Infantry weapon range is based entirely on the short range band. Combine the two, and you get snubbies with longer range than regulars when used by infantry.  If range is what you're going for, you're better off with Sniper Rifles for your secondaries, as they don't impact your mobility.  Niops should have access to at least one design of the Wilimton or the SLDF version of the FNF-J12.

I don't think either of those are in MegaMekLab, though, right?

The main thing I was going for was setting up something similar to these guys

The Support PPC and Snub-Nose Support PPCs each take the form of a 1.8-ton tracked vehicle, which makes them perfect to use as the thematic basis for your motorized infantry with towed field guns.  It's just that it's near-impossible to make a decent standard infantry unit with them.
"“Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.” -- Stephen Hawking

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #32 on: 11 October 2021, 15:44:00 »
I don't use MML so I'm not sure, sorry...  :-\

CVB

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #33 on: 11 October 2021, 15:59:24 »
The problem is everyone else: standard Inner Sphere squads of 7 troops only allows you to use one Support PPC per squad, which makes it effectively useless: I'm better off with two support weapons of comparable range with half the damage: as long as it does 0.79/weapon, with the same range bracket, and uses less than 4 per support weapon, you'll do more damage and have more range.

A single Support PPC doesn't slow you down, while two support weapons cost you one MP (except for Tracked 'Mechanized squads/platoons).
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #34 on: 11 October 2021, 16:10:49 »
A single Support PPC doesn't slow you down, while two support weapons cost you one MP (except for Tracked 'Mechanized squads/platoons).

It's not so much slowing down I'm worried about, it's that you're only ever going to get one Support PPC as a support weapon, due to the 5-person crew requirement. As a result, you need 10 troopers per squad, so unless you're the Marians or the Taurians, you're never really going to get the benefit of having them.

A Time of War Companion adds an updated "Snub-Nose" version with smaller crew requirements and longer range for the same weight and damage, which can fit two into a 7-person squad, or even a 6-person ComStar/WoB squad.
"“Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.” -- Stephen Hawking

CVB

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #35 on: 11 October 2021, 17:46:33 »
It's not so much slowing down I'm worried about, it's that you're only ever going to get one Support PPC as a support weapon, due to the 5-person crew requirement.

What's the problem? With a single Support PPC you get as much additional damage as from your 2 support weapons of 0.79 damage you mentioned earlier, you keep your full movement allowance and can get the range from one of the Shrapnel Sniper Rifles.

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As a result, you need 10 troopers per squad, so unless you're the Marians or the Taurians, you're never really going to get the benefit of having them.

Then maybe you should hire Marian or Taurian Military Advisors  8)
Honestly, when we talk about 2 Support PPCs, we are already deep in home designs. I don't think any Army would refrain from using weapons deemed valuable just because their Organization Table would need an update. How often did the US Army change the mechanized infantry squad, platoon and company organization to adapt to M16 halftracks, M75, M59, M113, M2/M3, Stryker, or to introduce and eliminate different radio sets, squad automatic weapons, HMGs, machine pistols, carbines, assault rifles, mortars, rifle grenades, grenade launchers, Bazookas, LAWs, VLAWs, Dragons,  Redeyes, Stingers...


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A Time of War Companion adds an updated "Snub-Nose" version with smaller crew requirements and longer range for the same weight and damage, which can fit two into a 7-person squad, or even a 6-person ComStar/WoB squad.
The Snubby is in MML, only missing BV.
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #36 on: 11 October 2021, 20:33:18 »
What's the problem? With a single Support PPC you get as much additional damage as from your 2 support weapons of 0.79 damage you mentioned earlier, you keep your full movement allowance and can get the range from one of the Shrapnel Sniper Rifles.

Those sniper rifles have not yet been added to MegaMekLab, making them impossible to use in MegaMek.

But, I mean, sure, there are laser rifles with a 3 base range, but it's aggravating that your range isn't being dictated by your 1.8-ton support weapon.  Of course, it's also weird that the 1.8-ton support weapon doesn't seem to change your platoon's mass...

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Then maybe you should hire Marian or Taurian Military Advisors  8)

Well, if you don't want to have any distinctiveness between factions, sure. ;)

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Honestly, when we talk about 2 Support PPCs, we are already deep in home designs. I don't think any Army would refrain from using weapons deemed valuable just because their Organization Table would need an update. How often did the US Army change the mechanized infantry squad, platoon and company organization to adapt to M16 halftracks, M75, M59, M113, M2/M3, Stryker, or to introduce and eliminate different radio sets, squad automatic weapons, HMGs, machine pistols, carbines, assault rifles, mortars, rifle grenades, grenade launchers, Bazookas, LAWs, VLAWs, Dragons,  Redeyes, Stingers...

The Snubby is in MML, only missing BV.

Side note: there is a canon infantry unit that has two Support PPCs per squad.  In fact, I linked to it earlier.

But, yeah, with that said, I suspect I'll just end up having to use a different trooper count for what I'm trying to do.
"“Eternity is a long time, especially towards the end.” -- Stephen Hawking

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #37 on: 06 March 2022, 10:53:53 »
After watching maybe a little too much Aliens, it struck me a TL D version of my first post would probably look a little like a Pulse Rifle, so based on Rorynex's RM-3 with a 4-shot compact grenade launcher strapped to it:

Rorynex R41 "Pulse" Rifle with integral grenade launcher:

Equipment Rating: D/C-D-C/D
Armor Piercing/Base Damage: 3B/2B (compatible with the RM3) or by ordnance type
Range: 15/40/90/205 meters
Shots: 100/4
Cost/Reload: 800/10 and by ordnance type
Affiliation: -
Mass/Reload: 4kg/760g+800g
Notes: Burst: 3; Recoil Compensation built in (0 recoil)
TW Damage: 0.61 (1/2/3 range), Heavy Burst special when used as a primary weapon

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #38 on: 17 April 2022, 04:06:28 »
Abandoning all verisimilitude, here's an Edge carbine (with the mandatory under-barrel grenade launcher):

Equipment Rating: C/C-C-C/D
Armor Piercing/Base Damage: 4B/2B
Range: 15/45/75/150 meters
Shots: 10/3
Cost/Reload: 400/1 and by ordnance type
Affiliation: -
Mass/Reload: 3kg/75g+600g
Notes: Semi-automatic (Burst 1)
TW Damage: 0.61 (1/2/3 range), Heavy Burst special when used as a primary weapon

Daryk

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Re: Mauser Shenanigans
« Reply #39 on: 29 April 2022, 20:16:47 »
So try this on for size:

Take a 2-trooper squad, and equip both with bog standard Mauser 960s.  Designate one as Primary and one as a Secondary weapon.  That adds up to: 0.93 + 0.60 (rule limited) = 1.53, which rounds to 2 (the same it would be without the limiting rule).  WITH the Heavy Burst special.  AT 2/4/6 range.

Of course, you can only have five of these squads per platoon (darn).  That's 10 troopers (which fit in a one-ton infantry bay) that do 8 points of damage (5d6 Anti-Infantry) at 2/4/6 range.

Is anyone seeing a downside here?  Because my favorite tank (the GOBLIN) just got a whole lot sexier...  ^-^

CVB

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Re: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« Reply #40 on: 29 April 2022, 21:56:15 »
The only minimal downside could be that dismounting five squads takes some time (if you want to get the advantages of squad deployment).
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« Reply #41 on: 30 April 2022, 03:46:19 »
Hence why you only use vehicles with 1-ton infantry compartments...  ^-^

CVB

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Re: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« Reply #42 on: 30 April 2022, 05:20:07 »
That was my assumption ("...dismounting five squads..."), I could still be dismounting from a Maxim II when the war ends :)
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« Reply #43 on: 30 April 2022, 06:46:34 »
I think you can get around that by dismounting as a "platoon", then breaking up into squads.  Really, you can use "platoons" of that size AS squads.

idea weenie

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Re: Mauser Shenanigans
« Reply #44 on: 30 April 2022, 06:50:27 »
Take a 2-trooper squad, and equip both with bog standard Mauser 960s.  Designate one as Primary and one as a Secondary weapon.  That adds up to: 0.93 + 0.60 (rule limited) = 1.53, which rounds to 2 (the same it would be without the limiting rule).  WITH the Heavy Burst special.  AT 2/4/6 range.

Of course, you can only have five of these squads per platoon (darn).  That's 10 troopers (which fit in a one-ton infantry bay) that do 8 points of damage (5d6 Anti-Infantry) at 2/4/6 range.

Is anyone seeing a downside here?  Because my favorite tank (the GOBLIN) just got a whole lot sexier...  ^-^

How about removing the Medium Laser from a Savannah Master and replacing it with an infantry compartment?  High-speed infantry delivery/retrieval

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« Reply #45 on: 30 April 2022, 06:52:18 »
There's a canon Ferret that will work just fine...  8)

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« Reply #46 on: 01 May 2022, 16:21:33 »
Here's a worse idea:  Instead of a Mauser 960, use a Mauser IIc and a Bear Hunter.  That gets you 3 points of damage, the Heavy Burst special and 3/6/9 range.  Of course, proper choice of Sniper Rifle as a Primary weapon will make that 3 points of damage out to 7/14/21 range with Heavy Burst.  Both scale to a full 15 damage points with 5d6 Anti-Infantry damage per 10 trooper "platoon".  And they were worried about excesses before...  ::)

A MG variant Goblin can cart 5 of those "platoons" around the battlefield, but only load/unload one per turn.  Heavy APCs carry SiX...  >:D

CVB

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Re: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« Reply #47 on: 01 May 2022, 17:05:04 »
And when my math is right, assuming a sniper rifle cost of 1,000cb, that whole "platoon" is still cheaper than a standard MG platoon, leaving some funds for armor or stealth suits  >:D

You're evil!  ;D :clap:
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« Reply #48 on: 01 May 2022, 17:26:49 »
Thank you!  I try my best (worst, I suppose)...  ^-^

DOC_Agren

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Re: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« Reply #49 on: 01 May 2022, 19:28:43 »
And see Daryk, that why I love your crazy ideas.  8)
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« Reply #50 on: 02 May 2022, 03:12:31 »
Thanks DOC!  :)