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Author Topic: 5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)  (Read 3577 times)

Daryk

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5.56 LIVES! (Infantry Weapon Nerf Shenanigans)
« on: 20 September 2021, 19:55:39 »
Given the latest Tech Manual errata that limits primary infantry weapons to 0.6 damage and gives weapons thus limited the Heavy Burst special for free, the obvious solution is to engineer a weapon that gets just over 0.6 damage.  Being that a three-shot Compact (aka "under barrel") Grenade Launcher gets you 0.47 damage, your threshold is 0.14.  Conveniently enough, the Vintage Assault Rifle's 2AP/3BD damage gets to 0.14 with a (wait for it...) 3-round burst.  Modern weapons that have equivalent ammunition (i.e., 3AP/2BD)?  The Mydron and Rorynex SMGs, both of which have MUCH higher burst values, and not much weight.  Infantry the Sphere over will rejoice at their basic load coming down in weight:

The "Edge" 5.56mm assault weapon with integral grenade launcher:

Equipment Rating: C/B-C-B/D
Armor Piercing/Base Damage: 2B/3B or by ordnance type
Range: 15/40/90/205 meters
Shots: 30/3
Cost/Reload: 400/3 and by ordnance type
Affiliation: -
Mass/Reload: 5kg/480g+600g
Notes: Burst: 3; Recoil Compensation built in (0 recoil)
TW Damage: 0.61 (1/2/3 range), Heavy Burst special when used as a primary weapon.
« Last Edit: 29 April 2022, 20:40:21 by Daryk »

DevianID

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #1 on: 21 September 2021, 01:02:46 »
The vintage is pretty expensive.  What is the cheapest/lowest tech options for hitting .6 infantry damage?

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #2 on: 21 September 2021, 01:59:16 »
Holy crap wait what?  That’s a hell of a nerf on the Mauser 960.
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RifleMech

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #3 on: 21 September 2021, 09:06:44 »
I just looked at the errata and the Mouser 960 does .93 damage. Did that change?

nckestrel

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #4 on: 21 September 2021, 09:08:27 »
I just looked at the errata and the Mouser 960 does .93 damage. Did that change?
If it's a secondary weapon, it does .93.  If it's the primary, it hits the cap of .6 and gains the heavy burst.
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RifleMech

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #5 on: 21 September 2021, 09:32:12 »
If it's a secondary weapon, it does .93.  If it's the primary, it hits the cap of .6 and gains the heavy burst.

Where is that ruling and how does it effect the conversion rules in AToW Companion?

monbvol

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #6 on: 21 September 2021, 11:56:30 »
This errata is somewhat interesting.

It actually makes the impacted weapons deadlier against PBIs the fewer PBIs there are in the unit.  One PBI with a Mauser 960 can now take out 2-7 enemy PBI all by themselves whereas before they only took out 1 enemy PBI.  I may have to calculate the break even point when I get home from work.

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #7 on: 21 September 2021, 17:17:16 »
Where is that ruling and how does it effect the conversion rules in AToW Companion?
It's in the newest Tech Manual errata.  It doesn't actually affect the Companion conversion rules at all.  It only comes into play when you assemble an infantry unit.

My biggest question is "Why?"  ???

RifleMech

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #8 on: 22 September 2021, 07:14:38 »
It's in the newest Tech Manual errata.  It doesn't actually affect the Companion conversion rules at all.  It only comes into play when you assemble an infantry unit.

My biggest question is "Why?"  ???


Why I'm asking? Because the numbers in TM came from using the Companion Conversions. If they're not changed the Companion Conversion is no longer legal.

Why the change?   I have no idea but my guess would to be nerf infantry even more. With the currant "Mechs Only!" attitude it wouldn't surprise me if other non mech units started being nerfed too.

VhenRa

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #9 on: 22 September 2021, 11:16:32 »
As Daryk said, it doesn't change the companion conversion.

A weapon that deals 0.9 from the companion conversion still deals 0.9

It just becomes 0.6+Heavy Burst when used as a primary weapon. If you issue it as a secondary weapon it remains 0.9.

RifleMech

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #10 on: 22 September 2021, 13:28:42 »
As Daryk said, it doesn't change the companion conversion.

A weapon that deals 0.9 from the companion conversion still deals 0.9

It just becomes 0.6+Heavy Burst when used as a primary weapon. If you issue it as a secondary weapon it remains 0.9.

Then it isn't the same is it?

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #11 on: 22 September 2021, 16:30:02 »
The Companion formulation doesn't change, and the value it outputs provides both the damage when a weapon is used as a secondary, and is the trigger for the rule change in Tech Manual (which applies to 5 existing weapons listed in that book, for no good reason I can see).  And yes, my "why" question was "why did they make this change?"  Xotl said it was to rein in excesses.  Personally, I think they could have fixed it by fixing grenade launchers and how they converted the M42B, but that's me.

RifleMech

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #12 on: 23 September 2021, 15:20:37 »
The Companion formulation doesn't change, and the value it outputs provides both the damage when a weapon is used as a secondary, and is the trigger for the rule change in Tech Manual (which applies to 5 existing weapons listed in that book, for no good reason I can see).  And yes, my "why" question was "why did they make this change?"  Xotl said it was to rein in excesses.  Personally, I think they could have fixed it by fixing grenade launchers and how they converted the M42B, but that's me.

But it does change. The weapon, now being a primary weapon, does less damage.

What excesses?  They could have fixed things by having the Rifle and the Grenade Launcher be separate attacks.

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #13 on: 23 September 2021, 17:13:56 »
There's lots of ways they could have fixed that problem. They chose this one.

My point is that the Companion formula and the Tech Manual process are separate from each other.  It's not the Companion that caps the damage.

RifleMech

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #14 on: 25 September 2021, 07:28:04 »
There's lots of ways they could have fixed that problem. They chose this one.

My point is that the Companion formula and the Tech Manual process are separate from each other.  It's not the Companion that caps the damage.


Not the best idea. But then I've been thinking that a lot lately. :(


True but the formula is supposed to convert AToW to TW and now it doesn't because TW's put a cap on damage.

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #15 on: 25 September 2021, 08:04:22 »
Only under a certain circumstance.  The base conversion is still good.

RifleMech

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #16 on: 25 September 2021, 14:36:52 »
Until they decide to fix things more.  :(

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #17 on: 25 September 2021, 14:41:43 »
Sad but true...  :-\

monbvol

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #18 on: 25 September 2021, 20:24:26 »

Why I'm asking? Because the numbers in TM came from using the Companion Conversions. If they're not changed the Companion Conversion is no longer legal.

Why the change?   I have no idea but my guess would to be nerf infantry even more. With the currant "Mechs Only!" attitude it wouldn't surprise me if other non mech units started being nerfed too.

I'm actually rather certain that the highlighted section is not the case.  For one the Companion was not published until well after TW/TM and there are no indications that the formula existed in the Companion's state at the time of TW/TM's publication.

It would not be the first time stats were made up before there were actual rules or older stats simply ported over to the current edition and a process created retroactively to make it work out.  For games in general or for Battletech in particular.

RifleMech

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #19 on: 26 September 2021, 07:32:59 »
I'm actually rather certain that the highlighted section is not the case.  For one the Companion was not published until well after TW/TM and there are no indications that the formula existed in the Companion's state at the time of TW/TM's publication.

It would not be the first time stats were made up before there were actual rules or older stats simply ported over to the current edition and a process created retroactively to make it work out.  For games in general or for Battletech in particular.

Maybe?  It sure feels like they had the conversions when they made TM.

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #20 on: 26 September 2021, 07:36:51 »
I believe it was simply unpublished at the time.

RifleMech

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #21 on: 26 September 2021, 12:47:23 »
Could be.

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #22 on: 10 October 2021, 13:11:26 »
Doing a bit more edge case math, it seems the current maximum damage for an infantry platoon is to use any primary weapon over 0.6 damage and two bootleg Bearhunters per squad with ComStar/WoB organization (where the maximum is five six-trooper squads) for a total of 35 damage.  Clans are limited by the five squad max per platoon rule (page 146 of Tech Manual) to 32 damage.  "Regular" IS organization using bootleg clan gear would get you 31 damage (assuming you could get the Bearhunters).  Taurian 10-trooper squads with those weapons only get you 28 damage per platoon of 30 now (I'm ignoring Marians because the "sub-platoon" rules don't divide them into groups of 30).

These compare to the previous maximums at:
ComStar/WoB: (4 bootleg Mauser IIcs + 2 bootleg Bearhunters per squad): 51 (-16 damage now and the useless Heavy Burst the Bearhunters get anyway)
Taurian: (8 bootleg Mauser IIcs + 2 bootleg Bearhunters per squad): 47 (-19 damage now and the useless Heavy Burst as above)
"Regular IS": (5 bootleg Mauser IIcs + 2 bootleg Bearhunters per squad): 46 (-15 damage now and the useless Heavy Burst as above)
clan (3 Mauser IIcs + 2 Bearhunters per "squad", limited to 5 squads per platoon): 44 (-12 damage and the useless Heavy burst as above)

The math of course changes when you factor in less capable IS support weaponry, but these are the changes at the absolute worst.  i also note again the change only affects five infantry weapons in Tech Manual (all three Mausers (SL, WoB and clan), the infamous Federated M42B, and the Federated M61A laser rifle/grenade launcher system).  The Sniper Rifles from Shrapnel #1 are only slightly affected since most of them do less than 0.6 damage.

I'm even less convinced this change was worth it now, but I freely admit it wasn't my decision.  Maybe they're trying to drive players to Field Guns?  ???

monbvol

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #23 on: 10 October 2021, 21:17:49 »
Did my own little thought experiment.

Since the damage conversion in the companion assumes using standard ammunition I figured I'd run the conversion for the Autorifle using AP ammunition stats instead.  It ends up at 0.59.

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #24 on: 11 October 2021, 03:46:34 »
When you say "AP ammunition", what exactly do you mean?  ???

monbvol

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #25 on: 11 October 2021, 09:08:26 »
AToW has Armor Piercing ammunition in the specialty ammunition section that is usable by most ballistic Small Arms last I checked.  +2AP -1BD.

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #26 on: 11 October 2021, 09:33:49 »
Ah, page 285... not sure how I missed that before.  It's definitely more of an advantage than I would have expected.

And I concur with 0.59 for the auto-rifle with that.  I wonder if that was a factor in choosing 0.6 for the nerf.

Even with that, though... it doesn't seem to push many weapons over any critical break points.

monbvol

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #27 on: 11 October 2021, 10:23:19 »
What I find more interesting is how much of a downgrade HE ammo is for the generic autorifle.

Daryk

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #28 on: 11 October 2021, 11:29:57 »
HE and the rest are why I've mostly ignored that section for so long.  Thanks for pointing it out again...  :thumbsup:

EDIT: Just grammar (late as it may be).
« Last Edit: 01 April 2022, 19:09:56 by Daryk »

Giovanni Blasini

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Re: 5.56 LIVES!
« Reply #29 on: 11 October 2021, 13:14:26 »
On a related note, as I'm now trying to do up some Dark Age infantry platoons for the Niops Militia, I'm noticing that the Support PPC is a pain in the neck.

Since the Mauser 960 gets nerfed using it as a primary weapon, I thought I'd reserve that as their support weapon for most platoons.  For one, though, I wanted to duplicate the Taurian field gun infantry...except Taurian infantry are 30-person platoons of three 10-person squads, which is perfect for the Support PPC: with a crew of 5 required, they can fit two Support PPCs/squad.

The problem is everyone else: standard Inner Sphere squads of 7 troops only allows you to use one Support PPC per squad, which makes it effectively useless: I'm better off with two support weapons of comparable range with half the damage: as long as it does 0.79/weapon, with the same range bracket, and uses less than 4 per support weapon, you'll do more damage and have more range.

In fact, there's a Support Snub-Nose PPC which somehow does the same damage as the Support PPC, but has a crew of 3, and a base range of 5.  I don't have ATOW Companion, so I don't know the full deal on where it's from, but...same weight, 2 less crew, same damage, and shoots farther, while being a snub-nose version?  What?
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