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Author Topic: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.  (Read 3935 times)

Charistoph

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #30 on: 25 October 2021, 18:59:39 »
On the jump maneuver in AirMech mode...how about this as an alternative: your AirMech jumps its normal jump MP plus the bonus +2 MP it would get for having a partial wing, but otherwise jumps like a BattleMech.

The first question is, why does it only have a partial wing out?  Or in other words, couldn't it be more?

I'm still of a mind Jump*3 is too much as it's pretty trivial to get a LAM up to 15/23 and the fastest WiGE I can find is only 10/15 and the upper limit for a LAM with Jump*3 does seem to be 27/41.

Maybe that's a problem with the WiGE's suspension factor more than the AirMech?  Or in other words, maybe the WiGE's aren't as fast as they should be, after all, they require a minimum of 5 to stay in the air when not taking off and landing, with even some needing to go Flank in order to turn and stay in the air.
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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #31 on: 25 October 2021, 19:21:39 »
The first question is, why does it only have a partial wing out?  Or in other words, couldn't it be more?

Well, I imagine it as a full wingspan with feat and arms dangling around... so there's that. I think the +2 bonus is fair.

I'm pretty much set on this:

Jump Maneuver = BattleMech Running MP with a height of its Jumping MP. Heat for it is for expending all cruising MP.

Also, just thought of this... as far as critical hits or motive hits, if a jump jet takes a crit or if a side torso is missing it can't perform the maneuver.

Maybe that's a problem with the WiGE's suspension factor more than the AirMech?  Or in other words, maybe the WiGE's aren't as fast as they should be, after all, they require a minimum of 5 to stay in the air when not taking off and landing, with even some needing to go Flank in order to turn and stay in the air.

The problem with the old ruleset from the tactical handbook was their jumping ability. There is absolutely no arguing it. A 6/9/6 LAM had 18 jump. EVEN IF you made a 2 MP requirement to jump and land (as proposed in this thread) that's still 14 hexes with an 18 level clearance. There is no way I would ever be behind bringing this back. Ever. It's way too powerful.

Which is why I feel like floating around like a VTOL shouldn't be a thing for them, either. With the stuff I wrote, they're moving like a WiGE and hovercraft so they don't have to worry about moving at a minimum at their "ground level" since they're hovering with VSTOL. Seriously, WiGE movement for them is still really, really, good, and they have enough speed if turn modes are dropped and if they have some hovercraft attributes.
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monbvol

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #32 on: 25 October 2021, 20:00:03 »
Maybe that's a problem with the WiGE's suspension factor more than the AirMech?  Or in other words, maybe the WiGE's aren't as fast as they should be, after all, they require a minimum of 5 to stay in the air when not taking off and landing, with even some needing to go Flank in order to turn and stay in the air.

I have to admit I think it may be the better approach that true WiGEs should get a suspension factor increase to bring their speeds up a little.  Not too much though.  Maybe another base MP or two.

Well, I imagine it as a full wingspan with feat and arms dangling around... so there's that. I think the +2 bonus is fair.

I'm pretty much set on this:

Jump Maneuver = BattleMech Running MP with a height of its Jumping MP. Heat for it is for expending all cruising MP.

Also, just thought of this... as far as critical hits or motive hits, if a jump jet takes a crit or if a side torso is missing it can't perform the maneuver.

The problem with the old ruleset from the tactical handbook was their jumping ability. There is absolutely no arguing it. A 6/9/6 LAM had 18 jump. EVEN IF you made a 2 MP requirement to jump and land (as proposed in this thread) that's still 14 hexes with an 18 level clearance. There is no way I would ever be behind bringing this back. Ever. It's way too powerful.

Which is why I feel like floating around like a VTOL shouldn't be a thing for them, either. With the stuff I wrote, they're moving like a WiGE and hovercraft so they don't have to worry about moving at a minimum at their "ground level" since they're hovering with VSTOL. Seriously, WiGE movement for them is still really, really, good, and they have enough speed if turn modes are dropped and if they have some hovercraft attributes.

If the +4 AMM is retained though it'd take a lot of optimization and advanced rules that require both parties to agree to(with the reminder that just because both say yes to one advanced rule both are not saying yes to all advanced rules) for that to be as much of an advantage as the old rules though.  If the same optimization and advanced rules were applied to true VTOLs under current rules they'd be even more of a nuisance really.

Charistoph

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #33 on: 26 October 2021, 00:09:29 »
Well, I imagine it as a full wingspan with feat and arms dangling around... so there's that. I think the +2 bonus is fair.

I'm pretty much set on this:

Jump Maneuver = BattleMech Running MP with a height of its Jumping MP. Heat for it is for expending all cruising MP.

Also, just thought of this... as far as critical hits or motive hits, if a jump jet takes a crit or if a side torso is missing it can't perform the maneuver.

Well, the Partial Wing provides +2 for sub-60's in standard atmo, and AirMechs theoretically are using full-sized wings.  I was thinking that maybe they could get a +3 out of their "Full Wing".

The problem with the old ruleset from the tactical handbook was their jumping ability. There is absolutely no arguing it. A 6/9/6 LAM had 18 jump. EVEN IF you made a 2 MP requirement to jump and land (as proposed in this thread) that's still 14 hexes with an 18 level clearance. There is no way I would ever be behind bringing this back. Ever. It's way too powerful.

Which is why I feel like floating around like a VTOL shouldn't be a thing for them, either. With the stuff I wrote, they're moving like a WiGE and hovercraft so they don't have to worry about moving at a minimum at their "ground level" since they're hovering with VSTOL. Seriously, WiGE movement for them is still really, really, good, and they have enough speed if turn modes are dropped and if they have some hovercraft attributes.

The comment you quoted wasn't about problems with LAMs having WiGE movement, but rather that they are so much BETTER at it than the WiGE's, even though the Vehicles are purpose-built for such movement AND more aerodynamic.  At the very least the Vehicles should be able to skip along at a similar pace at similar masses.

I have to admit I think it may be the better approach that true WiGEs should get a suspension factor increase to bring their speeds up a little.  Not too much though.  Maybe another base MP or two.

I was largely thinking similar.  At best, we'd should be looking at something that can definitely move at a Hovercraft's pace, though maybe not enough to keep up with a VTOL.  However, I have noticed that a WiGE's Suspension Factor is actually higher than either Hovercraft or VTOL, which makes me wonder why they still seem so bad in comparison to either, at least in speed (of course it could be just all my perception).
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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #34 on: 26 October 2021, 00:14:50 »
On the jump maneuver in AirMech mode...how about this as an alternative: your AirMech jumps its normal jump MP plus the bonus +2 MP it would get for having a partial wing, but otherwise jumps like a BattleMech.

So, your AirMech movement options would be:

AirMech Walk = 'Mech Walk /3
AirMech Run = AirMech Walk * 1.5
AirMech Jump = 'Mech Jump + 2
AirMech Flying Cruise = 'Mech Jump * 3
AirMech Flying Flank = AirMech Flying Cruise * 1.5

Beyond that, for me personally, I think the only thing I'd drop from Interstellar Operations is the Turn Modes requirement: make it optional, such that if it's being used for WiGE movement at your table, then, yes, the AirMech needs to follow it, too, but if it's not being used at your table, then it doesn't.


Why jump with an AirMech when you could fly?  ???

I can live with the targeting modifiers. I don't like them but can live with them. Turn Modes are out  for me.  As are some of the construction restrictions. No XL Engines I'm okay with but no internal cargo?  :o  Ugg  :facepalm:


The whole issues stems from trying to keep Battlemechs as the "Kings of the Battlefield" mentality that has to this day hampered all other type of units.

(snip)


I don't think it's so much Battlemechs as "Kings of the Battlefield", although there is some of that. LAMs being inspired by anime also goes to some people not liking them. The biggest problem was munchkinism. Originally, LAMs didn't have any tech restrictions, so the 10% weight for the conversion system wasn't that big a price to pay. The introduction of Clan tech just made the munchkins even more obnoxious. 100 ton LAMs with XL Engines, Clan Tech Weapons and targeting computers. Add in less than clear rules about jumping/flying and their opponents got annoyed really quick. Understandably so.

Unfortunately, I think IO takes things too far into the other direction. Turn Modes definitely go too far. Targeting modifiers. Not needed but acceptable. Some of the tech restrictions are also acceptable. Some however make no sense. Why can I mount MASC but not a Supercharger? Why is it I can mount TSM but not Clan FF? Why no cargo, other than to remove LAMs as raiders? I think it's too much.



The conflict of page 108 versus 109 of IO is that the rule for maintaining elevation does not include the word "additional" so it reads as if it only costs a LAM 2 MP instead of the WiGE's 3 MP to maintain elevation but the example of Airmech movement on 109 indicated that LAMs in Airmech mode do require the same total 3 MP as a true WiGE.  I've already asked for a clarification for which one is correct and grant this could significantly change where I stand on what needs to be done to make Airmech more reasonable.

I'm still of a mind Jump*3 is too much as it's pretty trivial to get a LAM up to 15/23 and the fastest WiGE I can find is only 10/15 and the upper limit for a LAM with Jump*3 does seem to be 27/41.

Thanks. Found it. I'd like to know how they answer it but I think it's an error. Remember the slowest AirMech only has 14 MP to use and AirMechs have to move forward 5 hexes. That isn't possible at 3 MP per hex. 5 hexes would cost 15 MP. Not including the MP cost to change increase elevation. At 3MP per hex, the AirMech just doesn't have enough MP to fly. Neither does it have enough MP at 2xJMP.

I know there's a desire to force LAM users to change modes but decreasing the xJMP or increasing the MP per hex just doesn't work. Without forcing LAMs to mount more jump jets, 3 is the minimum number, and LAMs already have to pay enough weight for what they do. Having to add another JJ would hurt them even more. Besides, it isn't just WiGEs, AirMechs have to compete against. There's also VTOLs, Hovers, Mechs. There's quite a few IntroLevel units that can outpace a slow AirMech at elevation 1, and run rings around them at higher elevations. There's a lot more if Sprinting/Overdrive is used. So AirMechs don't need any more nerfing.

RifleMech

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #35 on: 26 October 2021, 00:57:35 »
For the jump maneuver I can just make the landing cost 3 mp instead of 5 and have the elevation max equal the unit's jump jet count. Fair enough.

That's essentially what the problem was with the old rules...

I mean, LAM's are still great. Shoot, the last few LAMs in this thread are actually cheaper than their BattleMech counterparts.


It doesn't cost any MP for an AirMech to land.

The C-Bill cost compared to some Mechs is why I think the  fluff statement that no one but the SLDF could develop LAMs is bunk. Cost is also why I think LAMs are still a viable scout unit.


The problem with the old ruleset from the tactical handbook was their jumping ability. There is absolutely no arguing it. A 6/9/6 LAM had 18 jump. EVEN IF you made a 2 MP requirement to jump and land (as proposed in this thread) that's still 14 hexes with an 18 level clearance. There is no way I would ever be behind bringing this back. Ever. It's way too powerful.

Which is why I feel like floating around like a VTOL shouldn't be a thing for them, either. With the stuff I wrote, they're moving like a WiGE and hovercraft so they don't have to worry about moving at a minimum at their "ground level" since they're hovering with VSTOL. Seriously, WiGE movement for them is still really, really, good, and they have enough speed if turn modes are dropped and if they have some hovercraft attributes.

Under the old rules (Looking in Aerotech 1) it did take 2 MP to take off and 2 MP to land. AirMechs just didn't have to land if they don't want to. Now, it's 5 MP to take off and landing is free.

Under the old rules the only restriction to flying was not flying backwards. That restriction remains. With the new rules Elevation is capped at 25. Want to go higher, convert to fighter mode. AirMechs also pay 2 MP per hex at elevation 2+ plus the MP it costs to increase elevation and it has to move forward 5 hexes. From take off with a steep climb the AirMech is only going to get to elevation 13.

Also note that AirMechs must get to elevation 8+ before they can convert to fighter mode. It would take a slow AirMech 4 turns to from take off to convert.

First turn; 5MP taking off, + 5 MP forward movement = 10 MP. (There isn't enough MP to climb and move forward this turn.)
Second turn; climbing 4 elevations + 4 MP, moving forward 5 hexes at 2+ elevations +10 MP = 14MP
Third turn, repeat second turn.
Fourth turn, convert and fly away.

So AirMechs are not really that fast. Even without Turn Modes.


Giovanni Blasini

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #36 on: 26 October 2021, 04:08:15 »

Why jump with an AirMech when you could fly?  ???

Sometimes it might be more useful to jump the shorter distance rather than to try to fly it.

The first question is, why does it only have a partial wing out?  Or in other words, couldn't it be more?

Because that's a rule that already exists, and doesn't require one more rule.
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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #37 on: 26 October 2021, 07:18:22 »
The comment you quoted wasn't about problems with LAMs having WiGE movement, but rather that they are so much BETTER at it than the WiGE's, even though the Vehicles are purpose-built for such movement AND more aerodynamic.  At the very least the Vehicles should be able to skip along at a similar pace at similar masses.

I was largely thinking similar.  At best, we'd should be looking at something that can definitely move at a Hovercraft's pace, though maybe not enough to keep up with a VTOL.  However, I have noticed that a WiGE's Suspension Factor is actually higher than either Hovercraft or VTOL, which makes me wonder why they still seem so bad in comparison to either, at least in speed (of course it could be just all my perception).

Oh. Maybe I came off the wrong way.

The LAM as I have it can keep up with a VTOL on the ground. That's about it.

It doesn't cost any MP for an AirMech to land.

In this ruleset, when you use the Jump Maneuver, you do. It has to push itself to do something a BattleMech can do better, so to say. It has its utility because there are some cases where you will need to do it because it's too risky to convert. Not meant to be like the old rules where you can jump around all day for nothing.

Also, as far as taking off, I always figured it wouldn't matter since they have advanced VSTOL anyway (harrier that works). If that bothers anyone, could have it as a conversion at the end of the jump maneuver instead of landing. You would jump the furthest distance, at the required height, then plot your path as a fighter. So now there are two reasons to use it.

Sometimes it might be more useful to jump the shorter distance rather than to try to fly it.

Exactly. Depending on the map they can get cornered.
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monbvol

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #38 on: 26 October 2021, 07:34:33 »
I was largely thinking similar.  At best, we'd should be looking at something that can definitely move at a Hovercraft's pace, though maybe not enough to keep up with a VTOL.  However, I have noticed that a WiGE's Suspension Factor is actually higher than either Hovercraft or VTOL, which makes me wonder why they still seem so bad in comparison to either, at least in speed (of course it could be just all my perception).

I think the WiGE mobility problem is pretty easy to explain.  For published WiGEs I can find 5/8, 6/9, 7/11, and 10/15 for movement profiles.  Slow end of the scale is pretty terrible really.  Fast end isn't terrible but the small advantages of not having to pay for elevation increases and bonus movement for going down elevation don't really make up for the fact that VTOLs have much more freedom to just go where they want and the raw higher MP of most hovercraft mean they're just better in most terrain types than WiGEs.  It takes really specific terrain setups to make WiGE have mobility advantages.

I know there's a desire to force LAM users to change modes but decreasing the xJMP or increasing the MP per hex just doesn't work. Without forcing LAMs to mount more jump jets, 3 is the minimum number, and LAMs already have to pay enough weight for what they do. Having to add another JJ would hurt them even more. Besides, it isn't just WiGEs, AirMechs have to compete against. There's also VTOLs, Hovers, Mechs. There's quite a few IntroLevel units that can outpace a slow AirMech at elevation 1, and run rings around them at higher elevations. There's a lot more if Sprinting/Overdrive is used. So AirMechs don't need any more nerfing.

I have already stated more than once any reduction in multiplier would have to come with some other benefit.

But lets take a look at Jump*2 just using current WiGE rules(so taking off does provide exception to the must move 5 hexes a turn rule and 3MP to maintain elevation over invalid terrain types) with the exception of LAMs don't have to drop elevation at the end of their turn Jumpx2 still puts them ahead of many published WiGEs since the slowest LAM in Airmech mode would then be the same 6/9 as more than one published WiGE.  The next step up would put a LAM in Airmech mode at 8/12.  Only one published WiGE is faster than that.  Next step up would be 10/15 which ties the fastest LAM that I can find that is published.  End result is LAMs in Airmech mode won't be able to shoot very accurately but as demonstrated would not be at an inherent mobility disadvantage and in fact would have mobility advantages compared to true WiGEs and Fighter mode gains a little more utility.

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #39 on: 26 October 2021, 08:34:06 »
This is a fun discussion to have, that's for sure.
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monbvol

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #40 on: 26 October 2021, 09:03:15 »
This is a fun discussion to have, that's for sure.

*nod*

I mostly don't mind the current rules.  I mean just ditching the mandatory turn modes alone removes so much headache from using LAMs in Airmech mode it isn't funny.  I just look at what they can do in Airmech mode with Jump*3 and the possibly incorrect maintaining elevation greater than 1 costing only 2 MP and how another thread I participated in recently points out how optimization and use of advanced rules can make the +3/+4 AMM possible to overcome and can't help but think it is still too good, especially if one were to remove mandatory turn modes.

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #41 on: 26 October 2021, 10:17:42 »
If I have them treated as hovercraft they won't get the +1 airborne mod or the +1 jumping mod. They will always drop to 1 (or land in the case of using the jump maneuver) after movement. They can't hide in trees, buildings, restricted terrain either. So that helps.

Not to mention they have to spend base MP to take off instead of 5mp. So slower guys get a little bump.

At most, you can get a +6 modifier because that's where it caps off on the table.
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Charistoph

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #42 on: 26 October 2021, 12:52:15 »
The LAM as I have it can keep up with a VTOL on the ground. That's about it.

Which is still better than most WiGE Vehicles.

I think the WiGE mobility problem is pretty easy to explain.  For published WiGEs I can find 5/8, 6/9, 7/11, and 10/15 for movement profiles.  Slow end of the scale is pretty terrible really.  Fast end isn't terrible but the small advantages of not having to pay for elevation increases and bonus movement for going down elevation don't really make up for the fact that VTOLs have much more freedom to just go where they want and the raw higher MP of most hovercraft mean they're just better in most terrain types than WiGEs.  It takes really specific terrain setups to make WiGE have mobility advantages.

After thinking on it, I think the problem is two fold.  First Hovercraft are required to have engines of a certain size, while WiGEs don't (even while having a required speed they have to maintain).  The second is available mass.  VTOLs are limited 30 tons, Hovercraft 50, while WiGEs can go up to 80 tons.  Having that much more mass available may make for tougher or more powerful vehicles, but by necessity, slows them down.  Or in other words, its why Lights with MASC are faster than Heavies without them.

Still, it feels odd when an "aircraft" with legs and arms can beat an "aircraft" without.  I think adjusting them their WiGE movement to Jump*2 would probably be the best route to take.  I know on one of our unlimited nights, someone really abused the LAM AirMech movement being able to easily zoom across the map.  Of course, he may have not have been using those maneuver rules that have been complained about, or even considering the slipping rules.
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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #43 on: 26 October 2021, 13:13:16 »
Which is still better than most WiGE Vehicles.

It's kind of the point, though. It's still a BattleMech at heart and the game is centered around them. Vehicles are just support.

After thinking on it, I think the problem is two fold.  First Hovercraft are required to have engines of a certain size, while WiGEs don't (even while having a required speed they have to maintain).  The second is available mass.  VTOLs are limited 30 tons, Hovercraft 50, while WiGEs can go up to 80 tons.  Having that much more mass available may make for tougher or more powerful vehicles, but by necessity, slows them down.  Or in other words, its why Lights with MASC are faster than Heavies without them.

I'm sure you know, but just pointing out that LAM's cannot excede 55 tons and have a lot of (if not more) equipment restrictions.

Still, it feels odd when an "aircraft" with legs and arms can beat an "aircraft" without.  I think adjusting them their WiGE movement to Jump*2 would probably be the best route to take.  I know on one of our unlimited nights, someone really abused the LAM AirMech movement being able to easily zoom across the map.  Of course, he may have not have been using those maneuver rules that have been complained about, or even considering the slipping rules.

It's their VSTOL equipment and jump jets, I assume. Also, legs are a lot better than landing gears... Just because something is built to be versitle doesn't mean it has to be boarderline terrible at every role.

I've also been in the position of LAM abuse in one of my early BattleTech games which is why I just can't justify any of the old rules. Jumping movement is way too broken. Zipping across the map as a WiGE is honestly fine in my opinion and kind of the point, too. It's combat that's the problem but having +3 modifier added to it's gunnery roll, or a +4 if flanking, is fully justified. Not to mention the risks of crashing, being stuck in a mode, standing up and having to wait until the following turn to take off, cluster/flak/precision ammunition... There is a lot more available to swat them out of the sky these days. BattleMechs are still a lot better and that's how it should be.
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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #44 on: 26 October 2021, 13:33:46 »
Also, kind of feeling this:

Note: Targeting an AirMech

While it moves like a WiGE, it is treated as if it is a hovercraft no matter what its elevation is. This means that while it is moving it will not get the bonuses associated with being an airborne target even though it’s moving like a WiGE. However, attackers that have munitions, equipment, or weapons that provide bonuses for targeting aircraft and hovercraft apply. The modifier for targeting a unit that jumped is applied when it performs a jumping maneuver.

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Charistoph

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #45 on: 26 October 2021, 15:18:22 »
It's kind of the point, though. It's still a BattleMech at heart and the game is centered around them. Vehicles are just support.

And yet, most Combat Vehicles can still move faster than Mechs when comparing the same mass and similar engine.  This is one of the few times when the Mech is the superior.

I'm sure you know, but just pointing out that LAM's cannot excede 55 tons and have a lot of (if not more) equipment restrictions.

So that's why AirMechs are faster than WiGEs?  I'm not buying it.

It's their VSTOL equipment and jump jets, I assume. Also, legs are a lot better than landing gears... Just because something is built to be versitle doesn't mean it has to be boarderline terrible at every role.

It also doesn't mean it should be vastly better than something that is dedicated to that role, either.
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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #46 on: 26 October 2021, 15:26:27 »
And yet, most Combat Vehicles can still move faster than Mechs when comparing the same mass and similar engine.  This is one of the few times when the Mech is the superior.

So that's why AirMechs are faster than WiGEs?  I'm not buying it.

It also doesn't mean it should be vastly better than something that is dedicated to that role, either.

Vehicles are not as good as 'Mechs because the game doesn't resolve around them. AirMechs have WiGE style movement but they have a different way of pulling it off with more advanced hardware. Maybe it's because they're, I dunno, more efficient/advanced equipment from a bygone era? I don't know how else to put it... reasons.

You don't like it. That's fine. I'm not going to convince you to. This is how I want to do it, and is pretty close to how it works now with some exceptions.
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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #47 on: 26 October 2021, 15:36:12 »
Vehicles are not as good as 'Mechs because the game doesn't resolve around them. AirMechs have WiGE style movement but they have a different way of pulling it off with more advanced hardware. Maybe it's because they're, I dunno, more efficient/advanced equipment from a bygone era? I don't know how else to put it... reasons.

Mechs aren't better in every area over every Vehicle, though.  Where Mechs thrive is the ability to handle any environment they come across and compartmentalize damage, even if some Vehicles are faster, carry more weapons, or hold more armor on a position.  This still applies to the AirMech because they can always go "upright" and walk through/jump over a forest, building, or whatever, except it can outpace any Combat Vehicle short of a high flying VTOL.  Nevertheless, it still outpaces a built-for-purpose Vehicle in a way it doesn't do when fully airborne.
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monbvol

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #48 on: 26 October 2021, 16:39:30 »
Mechs aren't better in every area over every Vehicle, though.  Where Mechs thrive is the ability to handle any environment they come across and compartmentalize damage, even if some Vehicles are faster, carry more weapons, or hold more armor on a position.  This still applies to the AirMech because they can always go "upright" and walk through/jump over a forest, building, or whatever, except it can outpace any Combat Vehicle short of a high flying VTOL.  Nevertheless, it still outpaces a built-for-purpose Vehicle in a way it doesn't do when fully airborne.

*nod*

Jump*2 would be plenty to have Airmech stay surprisingly competitive with Hovercraft and VTOLs as it's not like there are a lot of those that can actually go over 10/15.

I'll admit something I've not been doing a good job of myself in this thread is looking at the other consideration, perhaps the most important one.

Why am I staying and fighting with a LAM if I can so easily just run away?

Charistoph

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #49 on: 26 October 2021, 17:30:13 »
Why am I staying and fighting with a LAM if I can so easily just run away?

It could be several things.  It might be wiser to be low to avoid ASF interactions by either being under the radar or a hot combat zone upstairs.  It could be that the target is in the area.  They are saving fuel by running low and "slow" on approach to the target area and run in to a patrol.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
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They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #50 on: 26 October 2021, 18:38:22 »
You guys are basing Jump*2 on a handful of units.

Here's a WiGE with the same weapons as the 20 ton wasp in this thread. It has 12/18 movement while the LAM has 15/23:
Code: [Select]
New Tank

Mass: 20 tons
Movement Type: Wing in Ground Effect
Power Plant: 160 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 129.6 kph
Maximum Speed: 194.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Medium Laser
     1 SRM 2
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-D
Cost: 698,100 C-bills

Type: New
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Wing in Ground Effect
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 346

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    2
Engine                        160 Fusion              9
Cruising MP: 12
Flank MP: 18
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     2.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  40                    2.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         11   
     R/L Side               2/2       8/8   
     Rear                    2         5     
     Turret                  2         8     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
SRM 2                  Front        1.0     
Medium Laser           Turret       1.0     
SRM 2 Ammo (50)         Body        1.0   

30 ton to match up with the official LAM Wasp. It has 10/15 movement while the LAM has 18/27:

Code: [Select]
New Tank

Mass: 30 tons
Movement Type: Wing in Ground Effect
Power Plant: 220 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 108 kph
Maximum Speed: 162 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Medium Laser
     1 SRM 2
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-D
Cost: 1,461,900 C-bills

Type: New
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Wing in Ground Effect
Tonnage: 30
Battle Value: 387

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    3
Engine                        220 Fusion             15
Cruising MP: 10
Flank MP: 15
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  1.5
Lift Equipment:                                     3.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  64                      4

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   3         18   
     R/L Side               3/3      12/12   
     Rear                    3         10   
     Turret                  3         12   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
SRM 2                  Front        1.0     
Medium Laser           Turret       1.0     
SRM 2 Ammo (50)         Body        1.0   

I do see where you're coming from. I really do. It's really close to the two examples above. LAM's are not just a WiGE though. They move like one, but the movement is with equipment used by BattleMechs (Jump Jets) and by Fighters (Thrusters, VSTOL) not with traditional WiGE equipment. So I'm not entirely sure how I feel about lowering their movement to Jump*2.

Ugh *movie clip showing how I feel*
« Last Edit: 26 October 2021, 18:49:51 by Fear Factory »
The conflict is pure - The truth devised - The future secured - The enemy designed
Maj. Isaac "Litany" Van Houten, Lone Wolves, The Former 66th "Litany Against Fear" Company

Charistoph

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #51 on: 26 October 2021, 19:05:38 »
You guys are basing Jump*2 on a handful of units.

No, not really.

Here's a WiGE with the same weapons as the 20 ton wasp in this thread. It has 12/18 movement while the LAM has 15/23:
Code: [Select]
New Tank

Mass: 20 tons
Movement Type: Wing in Ground Effect
Power Plant: 160 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 129.6 kph
Maximum Speed: 194.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Medium Laser
     1 SRM 2
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-D
Cost: 698,100 C-bills

Type: New
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Wing in Ground Effect
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 346

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    2
Engine                        160 Fusion              9
Cruising MP: 12
Flank MP: 18
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     2.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  40                    2.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         11   
     R/L Side               2/2       8/8   
     Rear                    2         5     
     Turret                  2         8     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
SRM 2                  Front        1.0     
Medium Laser           Turret       1.0     
SRM 2 Ammo (50)         Body        1.0   

30 ton to match up with the official LAM Wasp. It has 10/15 movement while the LAM has 18/27:

Code: [Select]
New Tank

Mass: 30 tons
Movement Type: Wing in Ground Effect
Power Plant: 220 Fusion
Cruising Speed: 108 kph
Maximum Speed: 162 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
     1 Medium Laser
     1 SRM 2
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-D
Cost: 1,461,900 C-bills

Type: New
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Introductory)
Movement Type: Wing in Ground Effect
Tonnage: 30
Battle Value: 387

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    3
Engine                        220 Fusion             15
Cruising MP: 10
Flank MP: 15
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  1.5
Lift Equipment:                                     3.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Turret:                                             0.5
Armor Factor                  64                      4

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   3         18   
     R/L Side               3/3      12/12   
     Rear                    3         10   
     Turret                  3         12   


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
SRM 2                  Front        1.0     
Medium Laser           Turret       1.0     
SRM 2 Ammo (50)         Body        1.0   

And for a sense of completion:
Code: [Select]
Pixie WiGE

Mass: 50 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Motive Type: WiGE
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/C-E-D-D
Production Year: 2750
Dry Cost: 3,474,000 C-Bills
Total Cost: 3,475,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 817

Power Plant:  210 Fusion Engine
Cruise Speed: 75.6 km/h
Flanking Speed: 118.8 km/h
Armor:  Standard Armor
Armament:
    1  Large Laser
    2  Medium Lasers
    2  Machine Guns
Manufacturer:
    Primary Factory:
Communications System:
Targeting and Tracking System:

================================================================================
Equipment           Type                         Rating                   Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard                      25 points                5.00
Engine:             Fusion Engine                210                      13.50
    Cruise MP:  7
    Flank MP:   11
Heat Sinks:         Single Heat Sink             14                        4.00
Control Equipment:                                                         2.50
Lift Equipment:                                                            5.00
Turret:                                                                    1.00
Armor:              Standard Armor               AV - 128                  8.00

                                                      Armor     
                                                      Factor     
                                               Front     31       
                                          Left/Right   25/25       
                                              Turret     26       
                                                Rear     21       

================================================================================
Equipment                                 Location    Heat     Spaces     Mass 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Machine Guns                               T         0         2         1.00
Large Laser                                  T         8         1         5.00
2 Medium Lasers                              T         6         2         2.00
@MG (200)                                    BD        -         0         1.00

And just trying things out, I can't get a 50t WiGe past 10 Cruise, even with an XXL engine.

BTW, the Pixie LAM would be moving at a 15/23 "flying" in AirMech mode, with it's BM 5/8/5.

I do see where you're coming from. I really do. It's really close to the two examples above. LAM's are not just a WiGE though. They move like one, but the movement is with equipment used by BattleMechs (Jump Jets) and by Fighters (Thrusters, VSTOL) not with traditional WiGE equipment. So I'm not entirely sure how I feel about lowering their movement to Jump*2.

But in order to use the full capacity of either, they have to be working in between with non-aerodynamic limbs sticking out to slow you down, especially if you didn't want to have them torn off.
« Last Edit: 26 October 2021, 19:12:58 by Charistoph »
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

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Fear Factory

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #52 on: 26 October 2021, 19:38:11 »
Jump x 2.25 round down, final offer.  :P
The conflict is pure - The truth devised - The future secured - The enemy designed
Maj. Isaac "Litany" Van Houten, Lone Wolves, The Former 66th "Litany Against Fear" Company

monbvol

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #53 on: 26 October 2021, 21:10:38 »
It could be several things.  It might be wiser to be low to avoid ASF interactions by either being under the radar or a hot combat zone upstairs.  It could be that the target is in the area.  They are saving fuel by running low and "slow" on approach to the target area and run in to a patrol.

Battlemech mode actually can be just as good or better for dodging those sort of situations but yes using Airmech for a turn or two is not out of the question for final approach to scout things out but then if the fight is unfavorable LAMs should just get out of there and there are terribly few units that are not ASFs that can stop them from doing so.

Jump x 2.25 round down, final offer.  :P

It's not out of the question that the best multiplier is somewhere between 2 and 3.

Fear Factory

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #54 on: 26 October 2021, 21:39:58 »
It's not out of the question that the best multiplier is somewhere between 2 and 3.

2.25 might be fine. I'm still in the camp that they should still be better than a WiGE because they use different equipment to move around. I think I got it all figured out:
« Last Edit: 26 October 2021, 21:48:15 by Fear Factory »
The conflict is pure - The truth devised - The future secured - The enemy designed
Maj. Isaac "Litany" Van Houten, Lone Wolves, The Former 66th "Litany Against Fear" Company

monbvol

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #55 on: 26 October 2021, 21:48:37 »
2.25 might be fine. I'm still in the camp that they should still be better than a WiGE because they use different equipment to move around. I think I got it all figured out:

Which is another aspect that is not out of the question.  I'm not against them being a bit more mobile than WiGEs since they do have those AMMs and if they really need to get out of a situation they can take their chances with Fighter mode and just leave anything that isn't an ASF in the dust anyway.

Charistoph

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #56 on: 27 October 2021, 00:25:48 »
Which is another aspect that is not out of the question.  I'm not against them being a bit more mobile than WiGEs since they do have those AMMs and if they really need to get out of a situation they can take their chances with Fighter mode and just leave anything that isn't an ASF in the dust anyway.

More mobile doesn't necessarily mean faster.  A Stinger is more mobile than a Locust because of its Jump Jets.  Even the capacity to go up a couple levels in Elevation make them more mobile than a WiGE, and that's not even considering just blasting off in to the Atmospheric Layers.

So may I present for consideration, Jump*2 (or 2.25), expend MP to change levels up, but doesn't spend more to travel those levels so long as it doesn't go over +3 Elevation, allowing it skim over Woods.  This higher elevation would generate heat for every movement point forward or upward at this higher elevation (including to get this elevation change), though, as its jump jets are putting out a constant thrust to maintain that elevation.  An alternative cost could be fuel points.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

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Fear Factory

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #57 on: 27 October 2021, 00:47:07 »
More mobile doesn't necessarily mean faster.  A Stinger is more mobile than a Locust because of its Jump Jets.  Even the capacity to go up a couple levels in Elevation make them more mobile than a WiGE, and that's not even considering just blasting off in to the Atmospheric Layers.

So may I present for consideration, Jump*2 (or 2.25), expend MP to change levels up, but doesn't spend more to travel those levels so long as it doesn't go over +3 Elevation, allowing it skim over Woods.  This higher elevation would generate heat for every movement point forward or upward at this higher elevation (including to get this elevation change), though, as its jump jets are putting out a constant thrust to maintain that elevation.  An alternative cost could be fuel points.

They can move over woods. Either by jumping maneuver or moving over them if the airmech uses elevation from a hill. They can keep an elevation until they end movement. They can also clear woods if they are next to them on a level 1 hill for no mp. They just can't stand or hover in a woods hex.

I'm not feeling the VTOL thing.
The conflict is pure - The truth devised - The future secured - The enemy designed
Maj. Isaac "Litany" Van Houten, Lone Wolves, The Former 66th "Litany Against Fear" Company

Charistoph

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #58 on: 27 October 2021, 00:53:10 »
They can move over woods. Either by jumping maneuver or moving over them if the airmech uses elevation from a hill. They can keep an elevation until they end movement. They can also clear woods if they are next to them on a level 1 hill for no mp. They just can't stand or hover in a woods hex.

And I'm suggesting changing their maneuvers to the above.  Now, keeping their elevation after it drops below them, I could see, to a point.

I'm not feeling the VTOL thing.

Well, I didn't present anything to BE a VTOL thing, so I would be more surprised if you did.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Quote from: Megavolt
They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.

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Fear Factory

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Re: AirMech Movement: no longer a chore for the sake of being a chore.
« Reply #59 on: 27 October 2021, 01:07:55 »
Well, I didn't present anything to BE a VTOL thing, so I would be more surprised if you did.

I read the level change thing and misunderstood. Sorry.
The conflict is pure - The truth devised - The future secured - The enemy designed
Maj. Isaac "Litany" Van Houten, Lone Wolves, The Former 66th "Litany Against Fear" Company