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Author Topic: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)  (Read 1323 times)

NavPoint

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Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« on: 23 August 2021, 13:54:41 »
First crack at tweaking the BV formula. Can you all do me a huge favor and look over the following list to see if you feel like there are any glaring anomalies? You can also request 'Mechs you're curious about to be added to the list. Thanks for your help.

(I'm not posting the formula itself yet, just results.)

BV2 values and %Change from BV2 values posted for reference.

Name    BV2    BV3    Change%   
Dasher-Pr    1251    916    -26.8   
Dasher-A    639    580    -9.2   
Dasher-B    1064    845    -20.6   
Dasher-C    741    645    -13   
Dasher-D    2307    1237    -46.4   
Dasher-Aletha    1388    997    -28.2   
Koshi-Pr    871    894    2.6   
Koshi-A    608    429    -29.4   
Koshi-B    1209    1139    -5.8   
Koshi-C    1320    1222    -7.4   
Koshi-D    842    870    3.3   
FireFalcon-Pr    1451    1348    -7.1   
FireFalcon-A    822    881    7.2   
FireFalcon-B    1570    1419    -9.6   
FireFalcon-C    1004    1037    3.3   
FireFalcon-D    826    885    7.1   
LocustIIC    1100    1117    1.5   
LocustIIC-3    980    1021    4.2   
Vixen    1596    1603    0.4   
Hellion-Pr    1873    1694    -9.6   
Hellion-A    1543    1496    -3   
Hellion-B    1569    1454    -7.3   
Hellion-C    2095    1823    -13   
Hellion-D    1761    1624    -7.8   
Hankyu-Pr    1334    1256    -5.8   
Hankyu-A    1117    1102    -1.3   
Hankyu-B    1076    1071    -0.5   
Hankyu-C    1840    1481    -19.5   
Hankyu-D    1080    1074    -0.6   
Uller-Pr    1085    1090    0.5   
Uller-A    1310    1244    -5   
Uller-B    1087    1091    0.4   
Uller-C    1147    995    -13.3   
Uller-D    1142    1161    1.7   
Puma-Pr    2083    1686    -19.1   
Puma-A    1437    1492    3.8   
Puma-B    1422    1480    4.1   
Puma-C    1372    1441    5   
Puma-D    1255    1343    7   
Cougar-Pr    1485    1472    -0.9   
Cougar-A    1697    1616    -4.8   
Cougar-B    1774    1665    -6.1   
Cougar-C    1785    1625    -9   
Cougar-D    1309    1342    2.5   
Peregrine    1434    1409    -1.7   
Dragonfly-Pr    1450    1582    9.1   
Dragonfly-A    1989    1949    -2   
Dragonfly-B    1830    1904    4   
Dragonfly-C    1344    1485    10.5   
Dragonfly-D    1779    1886    6   
Phantom-Pr    1159    1227    5.9   
Phantom-A    1410    1496    6.1   
Phantom-B    1096    1191    8.7   
Phantom-C    1590    1643    3.3   
Phantom-D    1581    1636    3.5   
Phantom-H    1178    1282    8.8   
Pouncer-Pr    2557    1923    -24.8   
Pouncer-A    2081    1908    -8.3   
Pouncer-B    1836    1685    -8.2   
Pouncer-C    1653    1629    -1.5   
Pouncer-D    2246    2005    -10.7   
BattleCobra-Pr    1487    1562    5   
BattleCobra-A    1466    1544    5.3   
BattleCobra-B    1892    1670    -11.7   
BattleCobra-H    1592    1602    0.6   
Fenris-Pr    1678    1779    6   
Fenris-A    1323    1410    6.6   
Fenris-B    1461    1581    8.2   
Fenris-C    1211    1314    8.5   
Fenris-D    1653    1746    5.6   
Grendel-Pr    2290    2220    -3.1   
Grendel-A    2031    2094    3.1   
Grendel-B    1903    1994    4.8   
Grendel-C    1465    1584    8.1   
Grendel-D    2212    2227    0.7   
ShadowCat-Pr    2156    1996    -7.4   
ShadowCat-A    2220    2037    -8.2   
ShadowCat-B    2420    2109    -12.9   
ShadowCat-Y    2503    2134    -14.7   
Nobori-Nin-Pr    2108    2131    1.1   
Nobori-Nin-A    2034    2074    2   
Nobori-Nin-B    2156    2167    0.5   
Nobori-Nin-C    2199    2179    -0.9   
Nobori-Nin-D    2007    2053    2.3   
BlackHawk-Pr    2663    2415    -9.3   
BlackHawk-A    2422    2109    -12.9   
BlackHawk-B    1543    1636    6   
BlackHawk-C    1515    1609    6.2   
BlackHawk-D    1450    1546    6.6   
BlackHawk-H    1832    1833    0.1   
BlackHawk-S    2056    2064    0.4   
BlackHawk-Y    2153    2115    -1.8   
HunchbackIIC    1679    1471    -12.4   
Ryoken-Pr    2073    2199    6.1   
Ryoken-A    2319    2331    0.5   
Ryoken-B    2281    2303    1   
Ryoken-C    1881    2032    8   
Ryoken-D    1863    2015    8.2   
Ryoken-Y    2350    2420    3   
BlackLanner-Pr    2268    2137    -5.8   
BlackLanner-A    2308    2203    -4.5   
BlackLanner-B    1961    1948    -0.7   
BlackLanner-C    2523    2270    -10   
BlackLanner-D    1809    1822    0.7   
Goshawk    2368    2414    1.9   
StoopingHawk-Pr    2147    2100    -2.2   
StoopingHawk-A    2319    2309    -0.4   
StoopingHawk-B    2111    2066    -2.1   
StoopingHawk-C    2435    2395    -1.6   
StoopingHawk-D    1838    1943    5.7   
Vulture-Pr    2351    2211    -6   
Vulture-A    1923    1994    3.7   
Vulture-B    2284    2224    -2.6   
Vulture-C    1892    1968    4   
Vulture-Y    2242    2242    0   
Loki-Pr    2654    2353    -11.3   
Loki-A    1948    1911    -1.9   
Loki-B    1592    1627    2.2   
Loki-M    2200    2044    -7.1   
Loki-Y    2666    2283    -14.4   
CauldronBorn-Pr    1952    2061    5.6   
CauldronBorn-A    2429    2376    -2.2   
CauldronBorn-B    2535    2524    -0.4   
CauldronBorn-C    1831    1951    6.6   
CauldronBorn-D    2228    2233    0.2   
CauldronBorn-Y    2447    2432    -0.6   
Crossbow-Pr    1829    1952    6.7   
Crossbow-A    1797    1919    6.8   
Crossbow-B    1687    1802    6.8   
Linebacker-Pr    2390    2450    2.5   
Linebacker-A    2264    2348    3.7   
Linebacker-B    2048    2196    7.2   
Linebacker-C    2075    2220    7   
Linebacker-D    2039    2188    7.3   
NovaCat-Pr    2530    2572    1.7   
NovaCat-A    2629    2629    0   
NovaCat-B    2492    2496    0.2   
NovaCat-C    1944    2080    7   
NovaCat-D    2084    2147    3   
NovaCat-Y    2429    2494    2.7   
Thor-Pr    2298    2313    0.7   
Thor-A    2145    2193    2.2   
Thor-B    2159    2200    1.9   
Thor-C    2379    2375    -0.2   
Thor-D    2643    2519    -4.7   
ViperPython    2813    2715    -3.5   
MadCat-Pr    2737    2773    1.3   
MadCat-A    2854    2926    2.5   
MadCat-B    2224    2389    7.4   
MadCat-C    2500    2631    5.2   
MadCat-D    2682    2789    4   
MadCat-Y    3107    3118    0.4   
NightGyr-Pr    2830    2734    -3.4   
NightGyr-A    2680    2680    0   
NightGyr-B    2140    2248    5   
NightGyr-C    2468    2519    2.1   
NightGyr-D    2889    2755    -4.6   
WarhammerIIC    2570    2648    3   
ManOWar-Pr    1537    1620    5.4   
ManOWar-A    2689    2672    -0.6   
ManOWar-B    1843    1980    7.4   
ManOWar-C    2437    2490    2.2   
ManOWar-D    2499    2587    3.5   
SavageCoyote-Pr    2613    2609    -0.2   
SavageCoyote-A    2852    2704    -5.2   
SavageCoyote-B    2284    2337    2.3   
SavageCoyote-C    3189    2894    -9.3   
SavageCoyote-Y    2734    2702    -1.2   
Masakari-Pr    3194    3032    -5.1   
Masakari-A    2399    2556    6.5   
Masakari-B    2320    2478    6.8   
Masakari-C    2998    3056    1.9   
Masakari-Y    2764    2872    3.9   
MarauderIIC    2680    2661    -0.7   
BloodAsp-Pr    2654    2771    4.4   
BloodAsp-A    3452    3163    -8.4   
BloodAsp-B    2885    2962    2.7   
BloodAsp-C    2270    2408    6.1   
BloodAsp-D    2396    2569    7.2   
Kingfisher-Pr    2401    2569    7   
Kingfisher-A    2261    2423    7.2   
Kingfisher-B    2472    2568    3.9   
Kingfisher-C    2644    2806    6.1   
Kingfisher-D    2364    2407    1.8   
Gladiator-Pr    2749    2705    -1.6   
Gladiator-A    3112    2991    -3.9   
Gladiator-B    2940    2858    -2.8   
Gladiator-C    2740    2698    -1.5   
Gladiator-D    2698    2663    -1.3   
Gladiator-Y    3275    3111    -5   
Gladiator-MC    3169    3033    -4.3   
Turkina-Pr    2944    2932    -0.4   
Turkina-A    2906    2902    -0.1   
Turkina-B    3420    3232    -5.5   
Turkina-C    2798    2824    0.9   
Hellstar    3084    3214    4.2   
Daishi-Pr    2712    2805    3.4   
Daishi-A    2855    2919    2.2   
Daishi-B    2609    2657    1.8   
Daishi-C    3610    3442    -4.7   
Kodiak    2927    3000    2.5   
Locust-1V    432    449    3.9   
Locust-3V    490    534    9   
Stinger-3R    359    388    8.1   
Stinger-3G    497    538    8.2   
Wasp-1A    384    419    9.1   
Urbanmech-60    504    467    -7.3   
Spider-5V    622    660    6.1   
Jenner-D    875    826    -5.6   
Panther-9R    769    813    5.7   
Wolfhound-1    949    1030    8.5   
Assassin-21    749    790    5.5   
Cicada-2A    659    661    0.3   
Blackjack-1    949    991    4.4   
PhoenixHawk-1    1041    1071    2.9   
Centurion-A    945    1009    6.8   
Crab-20    1143    1202    5.2   
Enforcer-4R    1032    1075    4.2   
Hunchback-4G    1041    1092    4.9   
Trebuchet-5N    1191    1185    -0.5   
Griffin-1N    1272    1237    -2.8   
ShadowHawk-2H    1064    1073    0.8   
Wolverine-6R    1101    1124    2.1   
Wolverine-6M    1291    1343    4   
GrandDragon-1G    1300    1327    2.1   
RegularDragon-1N    1125    1170    4   
Rifleman-3N    1039    1103    6.2   
Quickdraw-4G    1192    1196    0.3   
Thunderbolt-5S    1335    1410    5.6   
Thunderbolt-5SE    1414    1441    1.9   
Crusader-3R    1317    1282    -2.7   
Catapult-C1    1399    1420    1.5   
Archer-2R    1477    1541    4.3   
Avatar-Pr    1395    1578    13.1   
Grasshopper-5H    1427    1483    3.9   
Guillotine-4L    1400    1457    4.1   
Warhammer-6R    1299    1325    2   
Marauder-3R    1363    1412    3.6   
Marauder-5CS    1648    1735    5.3   
Marauder-5Y    1608    1672    4   
Orion-K    1429    1501    5   
Warhammer-II    1844    1965    6.6   
Awesome-8Q    1605    1611    0.4   
Charger-1A1    981    775    -21   
Victor-9S    1360    1391    2.3   
Zeus-6S    1348    1380    2.4   
Zeus-6T    1436    1485    3.4   
Battlemaster-1G    1519    1521    0.1   
Stalker-3F    1559    1564    0.3   
Banshee-3E    1422    1341    -5.7   
Banshee-3S    1751    1721    -1.7   
Atlas-7D    1897    1873    -1.3   
Atlas-7K    2175    2195    0.9   
KingCrab    1906    1899    -0.4   
MarauderII-4A    2073    2027    -2.2   
ThunderHawk-7S    2440    2521    3.3   
ThunderHawk-7X    2577    2598    0.8   
« Last Edit: 03 September 2021, 12:11:01 by NavPoint »

monbvol

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #1 on: 25 August 2021, 15:42:19 »
I don't know about others but I would find it helpful to know what changes to the formula you've made to get these values before I can give any meaningful feedback.

NavPoint

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #2 on: 26 August 2021, 11:22:12 »
I'd rather keep it a black box for now because it's very easy to get hung up on details.
It's mostly an entirely new formula, but some things are similar. Weapons, particularly.

I'd like to think that we raised the BV of undercosted things(Warhawk-A) and reduced the BV of obviously overpriced things(Warhawk-Prime), so I'm interested to see if the results are in line with people's feelings about what things should cost.

monbvol

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #3 on: 26 August 2021, 11:40:03 »
Well that does make it a lot tougher but off hand any system that causes the 3N Rifleman's BV to go up probably needs some work.

NavPoint

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #4 on: 26 August 2021, 11:56:37 »
Yeah I thought it was funny that the 3N Rifleman was the only (so far) 'Mech that gained BV specifically in the weapons subsection of the new formula.

But its BV is still a significant discount vs. the other introtech heavies. Does it make more sense to compare the Rifleman to, say, the Enforcer?

monbvol

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #5 on: 26 August 2021, 12:05:14 »
Since I'm at work and can only take a few minutes here and there to look at and not knowing the specifics of the formula, I can only say it feels like almost all mechs that are known to have heat issues when using all their firepower are getting over valued in this formula.

DevianID

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #6 on: 26 August 2021, 23:19:38 »
So the rifleman 3n is actually a pretty undercosted mech for the time period.  It does above average in the bv versus bv breakdown provided by death from above.  Yes it has low armor, but you pay for armor with bv.  Yes it has too many guns, but too many is better than not enough, as is the case of the ostscout and most 20 ton mechs, who are basicly negative battle value.

Cannonshop

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #7 on: 27 August 2021, 10:35:57 »
So the rifleman 3n is actually a pretty undercosted mech for the time period.  It does above average in the bv versus bv breakdown provided by death from above.  Yes it has low armor, but you pay for armor with bv.  Yes it has too many guns, but too many is better than not enough, as is the case of the ostscout and most 20 ton mechs, who are basicly negative battle value.

NOT if you use them like they're supposed to be used they aren't.  Most 20 tonners lose out because players try to run them like atlases with jumpjets, instead of using them for what they're for.
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NavPoint

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #8 on: 28 August 2021, 03:48:53 »
A second 'Mech that gains BV in the weapons subsection has appeared: The Blood Asp-D. Unsurprisingly, it has a Rifleman-esque payload.

DevianID

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #9 on: 29 August 2021, 01:01:32 »
NOT if you use them like they're supposed to be used they aren't.  Most 20 tonners lose out because players try to run them like atlases with jumpjets, instead of using them for what they're for.

So I feel what you are saying, but... You are wrong.  Battle value is designed for comparing what happens when two forces are trying to kill each other on a fixed game mat area.  Yes, a stinger has an infinite value when used to roam around rogue picking off picket infantry across a 50mile contested battle line.  But battle value is used to balance games of battle tech, which has a narrow focus of smashing mechs together with no other context.  So in the context of battletech, a stinger is not worth it's battle value compared to an equal battle value in, say, Panthers.

This tweak of the calculation massive discounts higher mobility strikers, which in the context of standard battletech is probably more correct.  Alpha strike does a much better job at balancing with PV, and still has the issue with fast strikers with heavy medium range attacks being too costly, all owing to the fact of how the 2d6 curve works.

monbvol

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #10 on: 29 August 2021, 08:48:31 »
That just points out the flaw of any single value balancing system though, in one context a unit is going to be over valued but in another it is going to be under valued.  Even when considering the primary constraints of the game being about 'smashing mechs into each other'.

Which is a premise I understand most players follow when playing the game but Battletech can be more and still be worth putting minis and mapsheets down.  So it's one I don't entirely agree with.

NavPoint

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #11 on: 29 August 2021, 11:18:13 »
Here are some numbers that come from the BV2 formula with three minor tweaks:

1.) MASC is counted as if it's active only half of the time.
2.) Extra AMS and AMS ammo are ignored.
3.) The way we add up weapon BV changes in a way I described in another thread. Currently, the formula simply adds BV from highest-lowest until it hits a heat threshold, and then adds half the BV of all remaining heat-generated weapons. This results in certain severely-overcosted things like the Puma-Prime which pays full price for weapons it only uses half the time. My change orders the weapons the same, but counts the first weapon that overheats us at half value. It then ignores that weapon's heat and continues adding the remaining weapons at full value provided we still haven't hit the heat threshold. (This is why the Rifleman-3N's value goes up; It gets a discounted large laser, but then pays extra for multiple autocannons and a medium laser that, combined, have higher BV and still generate less heat.)

Name    BV2    BV2.1    Change2%   
Dasher-Pr    1251    1123    -10.2   
Dasher-A    639    591    -7.5   
Dasher-B    1064    965    -9.3   
Dasher-C    741    666    -10.1   
Dasher-D    2307    1885    -18.3   
Dasher-Aletha    1388    1251    -9.9   
Koshi-Pr    871    871    0   
Koshi-A    608    505    -16.9   
Koshi-B    1209    1209    0   
Koshi-C    1320    1320    0   
Koshi-D    842    842    0   
FireFalcon-Pr    1451    1451    0   
FireFalcon-A    822    822    0   
FireFalcon-B    1570    1570    0   
FireFalcon-C    1004    1004    0   
FireFalcon-D    826    826    0   
LocustIIC    1100    1100    0   
LocustIIC-3    980    980    0   
Vixen    1596    1596    0   
Hellion-Pr    1873    1743    -6.9   
Hellion-A    1543    1463    -5.2   
Hellion-B    1569    1408    -10.3   
Hellion-C    2095    1945    -7.2   
Hellion-D    1761    1641    -6.8   
Hankyu-Pr    1334    1334    0   
Hankyu-A    1117    1117    0   
Hankyu-B    1076    1076    0   
Hankyu-C    1840    1716    -6.7   
Hankyu-D    1080    1080    0   
Uller-Pr    1085    1085    0   
Uller-A    1310    1310    0   
Uller-B    1087    1087    0   
Uller-C    1147    978    -14.7   
Uller-D    1142    1142    0   
Puma-Pr    2083    1702    -18.3   
Puma-A    1437    1437    0   
Puma-B    1422    1422    0   
Puma-C    1372    1372    0   
Puma-D    1255    1255    0   
Cougar-Pr    1485    1485    0   
Cougar-A    1697    1697    0   
Cougar-B    1774    1774    0   
Cougar-C    1785    1711    -4.1   
Cougar-D    1309    1309    0   
Peregrine    1434    1434    0   
Dragonfly-Pr    1450    1450    0   
Dragonfly-A    1989    1858    -6.6   
Dragonfly-B    1830    1801    -1.6   
Dragonfly-C    1344    1337    -0.5   
Dragonfly-D    1779    1779    0   
Phantom-Pr    1159    1159    0   
Phantom-A    1410    1410    0   
Phantom-B    1096    1096    0   
Phantom-C    1590    1590    0   
Phantom-D    1581    1581    0   
Phantom-H    1178    1178    0   
Pouncer-Pr    2557    2107    -17.6   
Pouncer-A    2081    2081    0   
Pouncer-B    1836    1733    -5.6   
Pouncer-C    1653    1653    0   
Pouncer-D    2246    2246    0   
BattleCobra-Pr    1487    1487    0   
BattleCobra-A    1466    1466    0   
BattleCobra-B    1892    1619    -14.4   
BattleCobra-H    1592    1535    -3.6   
Fenris-Pr    1678    1678    0   
Fenris-A    1323    1323    0   
Fenris-B    1461    1461    0   
Fenris-C    1211    1211    0   
Fenris-D    1653    1653    0   
Grendel-Pr    2290    2202    -3.8   
Grendel-A    2031    2031    0   
Grendel-B    1903    1903    0   
Grendel-C    1465    1465    0   
Grendel-D    2212    2212    0   
ShadowCat-Pr    2156    1994    -7.5   
ShadowCat-A    2220    2053    -7.5   
ShadowCat-B    2420    2156    -10.9   
ShadowCat-Y    2503    2194    -12.3   
Nobori-Nin-Pr    2108    2108    0   
Nobori-Nin-A    2034    2034    0   
Nobori-Nin-B    2156    2156    0   
Nobori-Nin-C    2199    2172    -1.2   
Nobori-Nin-D    2007    2007    0   
BlackHawk-Pr    2663    2568    -3.6   
BlackHawk-A    2422    2115    -12.7   
BlackHawk-B    1543    1543    0   
BlackHawk-C    1515    1515    0   
BlackHawk-D    1450    1450    0   
BlackHawk-H    1832    1765    -3.7   
BlackHawk-S    2056    2056    0   
BlackHawk-Y    2153    2126    -1.3   
HunchbackIIC    1679    1634    -2.7   
Ryoken-Pr    2073    2073    0   
Ryoken-A    2319    2236    -3.6   
Ryoken-B    2281    2200    -3.6   
Ryoken-C    1881    1881    0   
Ryoken-D    1863    1863    0   
Ryoken-Y    2350    2350    0   
BlackLanner-Pr    2268    2085    -8.1   
BlackLanner-A    2308    2170    -6   
BlackLanner-B    1961    1846    -5.9   
BlackLanner-C    2523    2250    -10.8   
BlackLanner-D    1809    1709    -5.5   
Goshawk    2368    2368    0   
StoopingHawk-Pr    2147    2052    -4.4   
StoopingHawk-A    2319    2319    0   
StoopingHawk-B    2111    1976    -6.4   
StoopingHawk-C    2435    2435    0   
StoopingHawk-D    1838    1838    0   
Vulture-Pr    2351    2200    -6.4   
Vulture-A    1923    1923    0   
Vulture-B    2284    2352    3   
Vulture-C    1892    1892    0   
Vulture-Y    2242    2242    0   
Loki-Pr    2654    2654    0   
Loki-A    1948    1948    0   
Loki-B    1592    1592    0   
Loki-M    2200    2159    -1.9   
Loki-Y    2666    2571    -3.6   
CauldronBorn-Pr    1952    1952    0   
CauldronBorn-A    2429    2335    -3.9   
CauldronBorn-B    2535    2535    0   
CauldronBorn-C    1831    1831    0   
CauldronBorn-D    2228    2154    -3.3   
CauldronBorn-Y    2447    2430    -0.7   
Crossbow-Pr    1829    1829    0   
Crossbow-A    1797    1797    0   
Crossbow-B    1687    1687    0   
Linebacker-Pr    2390    2349    -1.7   
Linebacker-A    2264    2224    -1.8   
Linebacker-B    2048    2048    0   
Linebacker-C    2075    2036    -1.9   
Linebacker-D    2039    2039    0   
NovaCat-Pr    2530    2530    0   
NovaCat-A    2629    2629    0   
NovaCat-B    2492    2432    -2.4   
NovaCat-C    1944    1944    0   
NovaCat-D    2084    2017    -3.2   
NovaCat-Y    2429    2429    0   
Thor-Pr    2298    2298    0   
Thor-A    2145    2145    0   
Thor-B    2159    2159    0   
Thor-C    2379    2379    0   
Thor-D    2643    2573    -2.6   
ViperPython    2813    2708    -3.7   
MadCat-Pr    2737    2661    -2.8   
MadCat-A    2854    2854    0   
MadCat-B    2224    2224    0   
MadCat-C    2500    2500    0   
MadCat-D    2682    2682    0   
MadCat-Y    3107    3107    0   
NightGyr-Pr    2830    2754    -2.7   
NightGyr-A    2680    2680    0   
NightGyr-B    2140    2140    0   
NightGyr-C    2468    2468    0   
NightGyr-D    2889    2784    -3.6   
WarhammerIIC    2570    2570    0   
ManOWar-Pr    1537    1537    0   
ManOWar-A    2689    2605    -3.1   
ManOWar-B    1843    1843    0   
ManOWar-C    2437    2385    -2.1   
ManOWar-D    2499    2499    0   
SavageCoyote-Pr    2613    2613    0   
SavageCoyote-A    2852    2787    -2.3   
SavageCoyote-B    2284    2284    0   
SavageCoyote-C    3189    3098    -2.9   
SavageCoyote-Y    2734    2734    0   
Masakari-Pr    3194    2967    -7.1   
Masakari-A    2399    2399    0   
Masakari-B    2320    2320    0   
Masakari-C    2998    2998    0   
Masakari-Y    2764    2764    0   
MarauderIIC    2680    2618    -2.3   
BloodAsp-Pr    2654    2654    0   
BloodAsp-A    3452    3243    -6.1   
BloodAsp-B    2885    2885    0   
BloodAsp-C    2270    2270    0   
BloodAsp-D    2396    2423    1.1   
Kingfisher-Pr    2401    2401    0   
Kingfisher-A    2261    2261    0   
Kingfisher-B    2472    2429    -1.7   
Kingfisher-C    2644    2644    0   
Kingfisher-D    2364    2246    -5   
Gladiator-Pr    2749    2636    -4.1   
Gladiator-A    3112    2984    -4.1   
Gladiator-B    2940    2819    -4.1   
Gladiator-C    2740    2627    -4.1   
Gladiator-D    2698    2587    -4.1   
Gladiator-Y    3275    3140    -4.1   
Gladiator-MC    3169    3037    -4.2   
Turkina-Pr    2944    2944    0   
Turkina-A    2906    2906    0   
Turkina-B    3420    3336    -2.5   
Turkina-C    2798    2794    -0.1   
Hellstar    3084    3084    0   
Daishi-Pr    2712    2712    0   
Daishi-A    2855    2843    -0.4   
Daishi-B    2609    2554    -2.1   
Daishi-C    3610    3554    -1.6   
Kodiak    2927    2867    -2   
Locust-1V    432    432    0   
Locust-3V    490    490    0   
Stinger-3R    359    359    0   
Stinger-3G    497    497    0   
Wasp-1A    384    384    0   
Wasp-1W    373    373    0   
Urbanmech-60    504    504    0   
Spider-5V    622    622    0   
Jenner-D    875    826    -5.6   
Panther-9R    769    769    0   
Wolfhound-1    949    949    0   
Assassin-21    749    749    0   
Cicada-2A    659    659    0   
Blackjack-1    949    949    0   
PhoenixHawk-1    1041    997    -4.2   
Centurion-A    945    945    0   
Crab-20    1143    1143    0   
Enforcer-4R    1032    1032    0   
Hunchback-4G    1041    1041    0   
Trebuchet-5N    1191    1128    -5.3   
Griffin-1N    1272    1193    -6.2   
ShadowHawk-2H    1064    1064    0   
Wolverine-6R    1101    1101    0   
Wolverine-6M    1291    1291    0   
GrandDragon-1G    1300    1269    -2.4   
RegularDragon-1N    1125    1125    0   
Rifleman-3N    1039    1074    3.4   
Quickdraw-4G    1192    1172    -1.7   
Thunderbolt-5S    1335    1335    0   
Thunderbolt-5SE    1414    1383    -2.2   
Crusader-3R    1317    1317    0   
Catapult-C1    1399    1368    -2.2   
Archer-2R    1477    1451    -1.8   
Avatar-Pr    1395    1395    0   
Caesar-3R    1578    1578    0   
Grasshopper-5H    1427    1427    0   
Guillotine-4L    1400    1400    0   
Warhammer-6R    1299    1276    -1.8   
Marauder-3R    1363    1363    0   
Marauder-5CS    1648    1587    -3.7   
Marauder-5Y    1608    1582    -1.6   
Orion-K    1429    1429    0   
Warhammer-II    1844    1844    0   
Awesome-8Q    1605    1605    0   
Charger-1A1    981    981    0   
Victor-9S    1360    1360    0   
Zeus-6S    1348    1348    0   
Zeus-6T    1436    1436    0   
Battlemaster-1G    1519    1494    -1.6   
Stalker-3F    1559    1559    0   
Banshee-3E    1422    1422    0   
Banshee-3S    1751    1731    -1.1   
Atlas-7D    1897    1886    -0.6   
Atlas-7K    2175    2106    -3.2   
KingCrab    1906    1906    0   
MarauderII-4A    2073    2044    -1.4   
ThunderHawk-7S    2440    2440    0   
ThunderHawk-7X    2577    2554    -0.9   
« Last Edit: 01 September 2021, 12:03:32 by NavPoint »

NavPoint

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #12 on: 31 August 2021, 14:00:33 »
The Offensive section of the BV2 formula incorporates the weight of the 'Mech. This is smart because it gives us a minimum possible value (to avoid extremely low-cost weaponless 'Mechs), and because even 'Mechs that have no weapons still have offensive capability(punch/kick/etc.) that should be accounted for.

One complaint I've seen about trying to balance BV games is that you can't take Zellbrigen into account. One part of Zellbrigen says Thou Shalt Not Throw The First Punch, so it occurred to me that we can give Clan 'Mechs a BV discount by assuming they don't use physical attacks. Removing a Clan 'Mech's weight from its offensive BV yields the following results (cumulative with the above stated tweaks):

Name    BV2    BV2.Zell    Change3%   
Dasher-Pr    1251    1070    -14.5   
Dasher-A    639    538    -15.8   
Dasher-B    1064    912    -14.3   
Dasher-C    741    613    -17.3   
Dasher-D    2307    1832    -20.6   
Dasher-Aletha    1388    1198    -13.7   
Koshi-Pr    871    817    -6.2   
Koshi-A    608    451    -25.8   
Koshi-B    1209    1155    -4.5   
Koshi-C    1320    1266    -4.1   
Koshi-D    842    788    -6.4   
FireFalcon-Pr    1451    1404    -3.2   
FireFalcon-A    822    775    -5.7   
FireFalcon-B    1570    1523    -3   
FireFalcon-C    1004    957    -4.7   
FireFalcon-D    826    778    -5.8   
LocustIIC    1100    1052    -4.4   
LocustIIC-3    980    933    -4.8   
Vixen    1596    1531    -4.1   
Hellion-Pr    1873    1684    -10.1   
Hellion-A    1543    1404    -9   
Hellion-B    1569    1349    -14   
Hellion-C    2095    1886    -10   
Hellion-D    1761    1582    -10.2   
Hankyu-Pr    1334    1265    -5.2   
Hankyu-A    1117    1048    -6.2   
Hankyu-B    1076    1007    -6.4   
Hankyu-C    1840    1647    -10.5   
Hankyu-D    1080    1011    -6.4   
Uller-Pr    1085    1040    -4.1   
Uller-A    1310    1265    -3.4   
Uller-B    1087    1042    -4.1   
Uller-C    1147    933    -18.7   
Uller-D    1142    1097    -3.9   
Puma-Pr    2083    1649    -20.8   
Puma-A    1437    1384    -3.7   
Puma-B    1422    1369    -3.7   
Puma-C    1372    1320    -3.8   
Puma-D    1255    1203    -4.1   
Cougar-Pr    1485    1437    -3.2   
Cougar-A    1697    1649    -2.8   
Cougar-B    1774    1726    -2.7   
Cougar-C    1785    1663    -6.8   
Cougar-D    1309    1261    -3.7   
Peregrine    1434    1368    -4.6   
Dragonfly-Pr    1450    1353    -6.7   
Dragonfly-A    1989    1760    -11.5   
Dragonfly-B    1830    1703    -6.9   
Dragonfly-C    1344    1239    -7.8   
Dragonfly-D    1779    1681    -5.5   
Phantom-Pr    1159    1072    -7.5   
Phantom-A    1410    1323    -6.2   
Phantom-B    1096    1010    -7.8   
Phantom-C    1590    1504    -5.4   
Phantom-D    1581    1495    -5.4   
Phantom-H    1178    1092    -7.3   
Pouncer-Pr    2557    2031    -20.6   
Pouncer-A    2081    2005    -3.7   
Pouncer-B    1836    1657    -9.7   
Pouncer-C    1653    1577    -4.6   
Pouncer-D    2246    2171    -3.3   
BattleCobra-Pr    1487    1427    -4   
BattleCobra-A    1466    1406    -4.1   
BattleCobra-B    1892    1559    -17.6   
BattleCobra-H    1592    1475    -7.3   
Fenris-Pr    1678    1593    -5.1   
Fenris-A    1323    1238    -6.4   
Fenris-B    1461    1376    -5.8   
Fenris-C    1211    1126    -7   
Fenris-D    1653    1568    -5.1   
Grendel-Pr    2290    2098    -8.4   
Grendel-A    2031    1928    -5.1   
Grendel-B    1903    1799    -5.5   
Grendel-C    1465    1362    -7   
Grendel-D    2212    2108    -4.7   
ShadowCat-Pr    2156    1900    -11.9   
ShadowCat-A    2220    1959    -11.8   
ShadowCat-B    2420    2062    -14.8   
ShadowCat-Y    2503    2100    -16.1   
Nobori-Nin-Pr    2108    2020    -4.2   
Nobori-Nin-A    2034    1946    -4.3   
Nobori-Nin-B    2156    2068    -4.1   
Nobori-Nin-C    2199    2084    -5.2   
Nobori-Nin-D    2007    1919    -4.4   
BlackHawk-Pr    2663    2480    -6.9   
BlackHawk-A    2422    2027    -16.3   
BlackHawk-B    1543    1455    -5.7   
BlackHawk-C    1515    1427    -5.8   
BlackHawk-D    1450    1362    -6.1   
BlackHawk-H    1832    1677    -8.5   
BlackHawk-S    2056    1968    -4.3   
BlackHawk-Y    2153    2038    -5.3   
CrimsonLangur-Pr    1952    1844    -5.5   
CrimsonLangur-A    2003    1915    -4.4   
CrimsonLangur-B    2210    1971    -10.8   
HunchbackIIC    1679    1565    -6.8   
Ryoken-Pr    2073    1990    -4   
Ryoken-A    2319    2153    -7.2   
Ryoken-B    2281    2118    -7.1   
Ryoken-C    1881    1798    -4.4   
Ryoken-D    1863    1780    -4.5   
Ryoken-Y    2350    2268    -3.5   
BlackLanner-Pr    2268    1977    -12.8   
BlackLanner-A    2308    2062    -10.7   
BlackLanner-B    1961    1738    -11.4   
BlackLanner-C    2523    2142    -15.1   
BlackLanner-D    1809    1601    -11.5   
Goshawk    2368    2264    -4.4   
StoopingHawk-Pr    2147    1955    -8.9   
StoopingHawk-A    2319    2222    -4.2   
StoopingHawk-B    2111    1901    -9.9   
StoopingHawk-C    2435    2339    -3.9   
StoopingHawk-D    1838    1763    -4.1   
Vulture-Pr    2351    2118    -9.9   
Vulture-A    1923    1840    -4.3   
Vulture-B    2284    2270    -0.6   
Vulture-C    1892    1810    -4.3   
Vulture-Y    2242    2160    -3.7   
Loki-Pr    2654    2565    -3.4   
Loki-A    1948    1859    -4.6   
Loki-B    1592    1503    -5.6   
Loki-M    2200    2070    -5.9   
Loki-Y    2666    2482    -6.9   
CauldronBorn-Pr    1952    1863    -4.6   
CauldronBorn-A    2429    2246    -7.5   
CauldronBorn-B    2535    2445    -3.6   
CauldronBorn-C    1831    1742    -4.9   
CauldronBorn-D    2228    2065    -7.3   
CauldronBorn-Y    2447    2341    -4.3   
Crossbow-Pr    1829    1740    -4.9   
Crossbow-A    1797    1707    -5   
Crossbow-B    1687    1598    -5.3   
Linebacker-Pr    2390    2251    -5.8   
Linebacker-A    2264    2126    -6.1   
Linebacker-B    2048    1951    -4.7   
Linebacker-C    2075    1939    -6.6   
Linebacker-D    2039    1941    -4.8   
NovaCat-Pr    2530    2452    -3.1   
NovaCat-A    2629    2533    -3.7   
NovaCat-B    2492    2353    -5.6   
NovaCat-C    1944    1866    -4   
NovaCat-D    2084    1938    -7   
NovaCat-Y    2429    2351    -3.2   
Thor-Pr    2298    2175    -5.4   
Thor-Pi    2224    2101    -5.5   
Thor-A    2145    2022    -5.7   
Thor-B    2159    2036    -5.7   
Thor-C    2379    2256    -5.2   
Thor-D    2643    2449    -7.3   
ViperPython    2813    2576    -8.4   
MadCat-Pr    2737    2558    -6.5   
MadCat-A    2854    2752    -3.6   
MadCat-B    2224    2121    -4.6   
MadCat-C    2500    2398    -4.1   
MadCat-D    2682    2579    -3.8   
MadCat-Y    3107    3004    -3.3   
NightGyr-Pr    2830    2651    -6.3   
NightGyr-A    2680    2578    -3.8   
NightGyr-B    2140    2037    -4.8   
NightGyr-C    2468    2366    -4.1   
NightGyr-D    2889    2681    -7.2   
WarhammerIIC    2570    2481    -3.5   
ManOWar-Pr    1537    1427    -7.2   
ManOWar-A    2689    2495    -7.2   
ManOWar-B    1843    1734    -5.9   
ManOWar-C    2437    2275    -6.6   
ManOWar-D    2499    2389    -4.4   
SavageCoyote-Pr    2613    2528    -3.3   
SavageCoyote-A    2852    2682    -6   
SavageCoyote-B    2284    2199    -3.7   
SavageCoyote-C    3189    2992    -6.2   
SavageCoyote-Y    2734    2649    -3.1   
Masakari-Pr    3194    2872    -10.1   
Masakari-A    2399    2304    -4   
Masakari-B    2320    2225    -4.1   
Masakari-C    2998    2902    -3.2   
Masakari-Y    2764    2669    -3.4   
MarauderIIC    2680    2523    -5.9   
BloodAsp-Pr    2654    2553    -3.8   
BloodAsp-A    3452    3119    -9.6   
BloodAsp-B    2885    2784    -3.5   
BloodAsp-C    2270    2170    -4.4   
BloodAsp-D    2396    2322    -3.1   
Kingfisher-Pr    2401    2300    -4.2   
Kingfisher-A    2261    2160    -4.5   
Kingfisher-B    2472    2328    -5.8   
Kingfisher-C    2644    2543    -3.8   
Kingfisher-D    2364    2146    -9.2   
Gladiator-Pr    2749    2488    -9.5   
Gladiator-A    3112    2835    -8.9   
Gladiator-B    2940    2671    -9.1   
Gladiator-C    2740    2479    -9.5   
Gladiator-D    2698    2439    -9.6   
Gladiator-Y    3275    2991    -8.7   
Gladiator-MC    3169    2889    -8.8   
Turkina-Pr    2944    2826    -4   
Turkina-A    2906    2788    -4.1   
Turkina-B    3420    3219    -5.9   
Turkina-C    2798    2676    -4.4   
Hellstar    3084    2978    -3.4   
Daishi-Pr    2712    2612    -3.7   
Daishi-A    2855    2743    -3.9   
Daishi-B    2609    2454    -5.9   
Daishi-C    3610    3430    -5   
Kodiak    2927    2755    -5.9   
Behemoth    3001    2862    -4.6   
Locust-1V    432    432    0   
Locust-3V    490    490    0   
Stinger-3R    359    359    0   
Stinger-3G    497    497    0   
Wasp-1A    384    384    0   
Wasp-1W    373    373    0   
Urbanmech-60    504    504    0   
Spider-5V    622    622    0   
Jenner-D    875    826    -5.6   
Panther-9R    769    769    0   
Wolfhound-1    949    949    0   
Assassin-21    749    749    0   
Cicada-2A    659    659    0   
Blackjack-1    949    949    0   
PhoenixHawk-1    1041    997    -4.2   
Centurion-A    945    945    0   
Crab-20    1143    1143    0   
Enforcer-4R    1032    1032    0   
Hunchback-4G    1041    1041    0   
Trebuchet-5N    1191    1128    -5.3   
Griffin-1N    1272    1193    -6.2   
ShadowHawk-2H    1064    1064    0   
Wolverine-6R    1101    1101    0   
Wolverine-6M    1291    1291    0   
GrandDragon-1G    1300    1269    -2.4   
RegularDragon-1N    1125    1125    0   
Rifleman-3N    1039    1074    3.4   
Quickdraw-4G    1192    1172    -1.7   
Thunderbolt-5S    1335    1335    0   
Thunderbolt-5SE    1414    1383    -2.2   
Crusader-3R    1317    1317    0   
Catapult-C1    1399    1368    -2.2   
Archer-2R    1477    1451    -1.8   
Avatar-Pr    1395    1395    0   
Caesar-3R    1578    1578    0   
Grasshopper-5H    1427    1427    0   
Guillotine-4L    1400    1400    0   
Warhammer-6R    1299    1276    -1.8   
Marauder-3R    1363    1363    0   
Marauder-5CS    1648    1587    -3.7   
Marauder-5Y    1608    1582    -1.6   
Orion-K    1429    1429    0   
Warhammer-II    1844    1844    0   
Awesome-8Q    1605    1605    0   
Charger-1A1    981    981    0   
Victor-9S    1360    1360    0   
Zeus-6S    1348    1348    0   
Zeus-6T    1436    1436    0   
Battlemaster-1G    1519    1494    -1.6   
Stalker-3F    1559    1559    0   
Banshee-3E    1422    1422    0   
Banshee-3S    1751    1731    -1.1   
Atlas-7D    1897    1886    -0.6   
Atlas-7K    2175    2106    -3.2   
KingCrab    1906    1906    0   
MarauderII-4A    2073    2044    -1.4   
ThunderHawk-7S    2440    2440    0   
ThunderHawk-7X    2577    2554    -0.9   
« Last Edit: 01 September 2021, 12:02:44 by NavPoint »

monbvol

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #13 on: 31 August 2021, 14:08:03 »
I wouldn't make that adjustment for two reasons:

1. It's never really been so much that the Clan's don't use physical attacks but more they see it as 'I have these perfectly good weapons to use' but even then we can see even this attitude starts to erode and Clan Mechwarriors start using physical attacks.

2. Having to adjust the BV if an Inner Sphere pilot gets to the controls of a salvaged Clan mech or one bought from the Diamond Sharks seems an unnecessary hassle.

DevianID

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #14 on: 01 September 2021, 05:36:25 »
I think a better way to use the information from zellbrigen is to take the average % the clans lose if following zellbrigen, and see if it matches up with a piloting skill increase.  Thus if a clan follows strict zell their piloting is temporarily increase by one, but if they break zell they lose this pilot skill bump

Cannonshop

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #15 on: 02 September 2021, 10:19:24 »
So I feel what you are saying, but... You are wrong.  Battle value is designed for comparing what happens when two forces are trying to kill each other on a fixed game mat area.  Yes, a stinger has an infinite value when used to roam around rogue picking off picket infantry across a 50mile contested battle line.  But battle value is used to balance games of battle tech, which has a narrow focus of smashing mechs together with no other context.  So in the context of battletech, a stinger is not worth it's battle value compared to an equal battle value in, say, Panthers.

This tweak of the calculation massive discounts higher mobility strikers, which in the context of standard battletech is probably more correct.  Alpha strike does a much better job at balancing with PV, and still has the issue with fast strikers with heavy medium range attacks being too costly, all owing to the fact of how the 2d6 curve works.

I understand your position (I've also argued it from your side from time to time when people tried to insert subjective conditions) and I feel, for the most part, that you're right about the purpose of BV being an objective balancing rather than conditional or subjective.

that said, I'm still not entirely convinced that those units are either under, or over, valued.

espl. since we can't check the author's work, since he's not sharing his formulas.  The table isn't much good if it can't be checked for errors, it ends up being purely arbitrary, which is NOT good for an objective system like BV.
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monbvol

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #16 on: 02 September 2021, 11:23:56 »
I understand your position (I've also argued it from your side from time to time when people tried to insert subjective conditions) and I feel, for the most part, that you're right about the purpose of BV being an objective balancing rather than conditional or subjective.

that said, I'm still not entirely convinced that those units are either under, or over, valued.

espl. since we can't check the author's work, since he's not sharing his formulas.  The table isn't much good if it can't be checked for errors, it ends up being purely arbitrary, which is NOT good for an objective system like BV.

To be fair they have started giving bits and pieces of their methodology, like explaining why Rifleman BV goes up.

I'm still not sure if I completely agree with the decision as the Rifleman is already over BVed IMO under current system as it just can't lean on the triggers very hard at all, either because it'll overheat or because it'll run out of ammunition in short order.

But then again I've not been a particular fan of single value balance systems for a while now.

Atarlost

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #17 on: 02 September 2021, 13:29:47 »
To be fair they have started giving bits and pieces of their methodology, like explaining why Rifleman BV goes up.

Cannonshop didn't say we didn't have hints about the methodology, he said we can't check the math. 

There's also the question of if it's changing enough to be worth the trouble.  You'd probably have to fork a mech builder to use a custom BV formula since doing all of the mechs by hand would be too error prone even if it wasn't also too much work.  Then someone would have to maintain that fork or convince the main branch maintainer to merge it in as an official unofficial option.  And then you have to convince other people to also switch unless you only play against the bot.  If someone's going to go to all that trouble I'd imagine they'd like to fix as many problems as possible.  If we really want an unofficial community BV formula the first step is probably to enumerate BV paradoxes to make sure we address all that it's practical to address and have at least noted whether the ones that aren't addressed are too complicated or too controversial.

I mean, I don't really have a horse here because I think BV gets in the way of making narratively plausible scenarios, but it seems to me as though something's more likely to come of this if it is a community effort not just one person addressing his personal bugaboos. 

monbvol

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #18 on: 02 September 2021, 14:10:14 »
Cannonshop didn't say we didn't have hints about the methodology, he said we can't check the math. 

There's also the question of if it's changing enough to be worth the trouble.  You'd probably have to fork a mech builder to use a custom BV formula since doing all of the mechs by hand would be too error prone even if it wasn't also too much work.  Then someone would have to maintain that fork or convince the main branch maintainer to merge it in as an official unofficial option.  And then you have to convince other people to also switch unless you only play against the bot.  If someone's going to go to all that trouble I'd imagine they'd like to fix as many problems as possible.  If we really want an unofficial community BV formula the first step is probably to enumerate BV paradoxes to make sure we address all that it's practical to address and have at least noted whether the ones that aren't addressed are too complicated or too controversial.

I mean, I don't really have a horse here because I think BV gets in the way of making narratively plausible scenarios, but it seems to me as though something's more likely to come of this if it is a community effort not just one person addressing his personal bugaboos. 

Ultimately I do agree with the point that until the math/process is fully shared any feedback we can offer is going to be inherently subjective to the point that it may well be useless.

NavPoint

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #19 on: 02 September 2021, 14:50:34 »
BV3, vaguely, is just a product of speed, power, and toughness. Speed is the part I'm least sure about, but I'm putting it off until I can deal with ammo explosions.

If anyone's interested in helping out, try to come up with an algorithm for rating how dangerous a 'Mech's ammo is to itself. "How much less tough am I because this is here?"

BV2 simply counts every explosive ammo slot that CASE can't save you from as -15 points in one part of the formula (-1 for gauss slots).
BV3 treats each slot as a -20% multiplicative reduction to the 'Mech's internal structure, which is a little better but not great.

Both are flawed in that they don't consider how well 'protected' each slot may be within its location. For example, a Griffin's LRM ammo is less dangerous to itself than a Crusader's LRM ammo. A critical hit to a Griffin's right torso has only a 1/3 chance to destroy the 'Mech, while a critical hit to either side torso on a Crusader has a 100% chance to destroy the 'Mech. But both are counted the same at -30 points. Relatedly, a Thunder Hawk-7X's gauss rifles are far more dangerous to itself than the Griffin's LRM ammo, but BV2 counts those torso GRs as only -14 points. BV3 turns them into a 96% reduction in the value of its internal structure.

monbvol

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #20 on: 02 September 2021, 14:59:13 »
BV3, vaguely, is just a product of speed, power, and toughness. Speed is the part I'm least sure about, but I'm putting it off until I can deal with ammo explosions.

If anyone's interested in helping out, try to come up with an algorithm for rating how dangerous a 'Mech's ammo is to itself. "How much less tough am I because this is here?"

BV2 simply counts every explosive ammo slot that CASE can't save you from as -15 points in one part of the formula (-1 for gauss slots).
BV3 treats each slot as a -20% multiplicative reduction to the 'Mech's internal structure, which is a little better but not great.

Both are flawed in that they don't consider how well 'protected' each slot may be within its location. For example, a Griffin's LRM ammo is less dangerous to itself than a Crusader's LRM ammo. A critical hit to a Griffin's right torso has only a 1/3 chance to destroy the 'Mech, while a critical hit to either side torso on a Crusader has a 100% chance to destroy the 'Mech. But both are counted the same at -30 points. Relatedly, a Thunder Hawk-7X's gauss rifles are far more dangerous to itself than the Griffin's LRM ammo, but BV2 counts those torso GRs as only -14 points. BV3 turns them into a 96% reduction in the value of its internal structure.

BV2 does modify ammo BV if it is placed in the arms, even without CASE or CASE II.   Beyond doing that I'm not sure what could be realistically done without a process that examine each design individually.

BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)
« Reply #21 on: 21 January 2022, 07:21:11 »
Just discovered this thread from another post.  For 'mechs that mount both MASC/supercharger and jump jets, I'd take the higher BV cost of the two pieces of equipment and use that instead of counting both at the same time since a 'mech can only either run or jump in a turn, not both at the same time.
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