Alternate BattleValue Formula (preliminary results)

[NavPoint]

First crack at tweaking the BV formula. Can you all do me a huge favor and look over the following list to see if you feel like there are any glaring anomalies? You can also request 'Mechs you're curious about to be added to the list. Thanks for your help.

(I'm not posting the formula itself yet, just results.)

BV2 values and %Change from BV2 values posted for reference.

Name	BV2	BV3	Change%
Dasher-Pr	1251	916	-26.8
Dasher-A	639	580	-9.2
Dasher-B	1064	845	-20.6
Dasher-C	741	645	-13
Dasher-D	2307	1237	-46.4
Dasher-Aletha	1388	997	-28.2
Koshi-Pr	871	894	2.6
Koshi-A	608	429	-29.4
Koshi-B	1209	1139	-5.8
Koshi-C	1320	1222	-7.4
Koshi-D	842	870	3.3
FireFalcon-Pr	1451	1348	-7.1
FireFalcon-A	822	881	7.2
FireFalcon-B	1570	1419	-9.6
FireFalcon-C	1004	1037	3.3
FireFalcon-D	826	885	7.1
LocustIIC	1100	1117	1.5
LocustIIC-3	980	1021	4.2
Vixen	1596	1603	0.4
Hellion-Pr	1873	1694	-9.6
Hellion-A	1543	1496	-3
Hellion-B	1569	1454	-7.3
Hellion-C	2095	1823	-13
Hellion-D	1761	1624	-7.8
Hankyu-Pr	1334	1256	-5.8
Hankyu-A	1117	1102	-1.3
Hankyu-B	1076	1071	-0.5
Hankyu-C	1840	1481	-19.5
Hankyu-D	1080	1074	-0.6
Uller-Pr	1085	1090	0.5
Uller-A	1310	1244	-5
Uller-B	1087	1091	0.4
Uller-C	1147	995	-13.3
Uller-D	1142	1161	1.7
Puma-Pr	2083	1686	-19.1
Puma-A	1437	1492	3.8
Puma-B	1422	1480	4.1
Puma-C	1372	1441	5
Puma-D	1255	1343	7
Cougar-Pr	1485	1472	-0.9
Cougar-A	1697	1616	-4.8
Cougar-B	1774	1665	-6.1
Cougar-C	1785	1625	-9
Cougar-D	1309	1342	2.5
Peregrine	1434	1409	-1.7
Dragonfly-Pr	1450	1582	9.1
Dragonfly-A	1989	1949	-2
Dragonfly-B	1830	1904	4
Dragonfly-C	1344	1485	10.5
Dragonfly-D	1779	1886	6
Phantom-Pr	1159	1227	5.9
Phantom-A	1410	1496	6.1
Phantom-B	1096	1191	8.7
Phantom-C	1590	1643	3.3
Phantom-D	1581	1636	3.5
Phantom-H	1178	1282	8.8
Pouncer-Pr	2557	1923	-24.8
Pouncer-A	2081	1908	-8.3
Pouncer-B	1836	1685	-8.2
Pouncer-C	1653	1629	-1.5
Pouncer-D	2246	2005	-10.7
BattleCobra-Pr	1487	1562	5
BattleCobra-A	1466	1544	5.3
BattleCobra-B	1892	1670	-11.7
BattleCobra-H	1592	1602	0.6
Fenris-Pr	1678	1779	6
Fenris-A	1323	1410	6.6
Fenris-B	1461	1581	8.2
Fenris-C	1211	1314	8.5
Fenris-D	1653	1746	5.6
Grendel-Pr	2290	2220	-3.1
Grendel-A	2031	2094	3.1
Grendel-B	1903	1994	4.8
Grendel-C	1465	1584	8.1
Grendel-D	2212	2227	0.7
ShadowCat-Pr	2156	1996	-7.4
ShadowCat-A	2220	2037	-8.2
ShadowCat-B	2420	2109	-12.9
ShadowCat-Y	2503	2134	-14.7
Nobori-Nin-Pr	2108	2131	1.1
Nobori-Nin-A	2034	2074	2
Nobori-Nin-B	2156	2167	0.5
Nobori-Nin-C	2199	2179	-0.9
Nobori-Nin-D	2007	2053	2.3
BlackHawk-Pr	2663	2415	-9.3
BlackHawk-A	2422	2109	-12.9
BlackHawk-B	1543	1636	6
BlackHawk-C	1515	1609	6.2
BlackHawk-D	1450	1546	6.6
BlackHawk-H	1832	1833	0.1
BlackHawk-S	2056	2064	0.4
BlackHawk-Y	2153	2115	-1.8
HunchbackIIC	1679	1471	-12.4
Ryoken-Pr	2073	2199	6.1
Ryoken-A	2319	2331	0.5
Ryoken-B	2281	2303	1
Ryoken-C	1881	2032	8
Ryoken-D	1863	2015	8.2
Ryoken-Y	2350	2420	3
BlackLanner-Pr	2268	2137	-5.8
BlackLanner-A	2308	2203	-4.5
BlackLanner-B	1961	1948	-0.7
BlackLanner-C	2523	2270	-10
BlackLanner-D	1809	1822	0.7
Goshawk	2368	2414	1.9
StoopingHawk-Pr	2147	2100	-2.2
StoopingHawk-A	2319	2309	-0.4
StoopingHawk-B	2111	2066	-2.1
StoopingHawk-C	2435	2395	-1.6
StoopingHawk-D	1838	1943	5.7
Vulture-Pr	2351	2211	-6
Vulture-A	1923	1994	3.7
Vulture-B	2284	2224	-2.6
Vulture-C	1892	1968	4
Vulture-Y	2242	2242	0
Loki-Pr	2654	2353	-11.3
Loki-A	1948	1911	-1.9
Loki-B	1592	1627	2.2
Loki-M	2200	2044	-7.1
Loki-Y	2666	2283	-14.4
CauldronBorn-Pr	1952	2061	5.6
CauldronBorn-A	2429	2376	-2.2
CauldronBorn-B	2535	2524	-0.4
CauldronBorn-C	1831	1951	6.6
CauldronBorn-D	2228	2233	0.2
CauldronBorn-Y	2447	2432	-0.6
Crossbow-Pr	1829	1952	6.7
Crossbow-A	1797	1919	6.8
Crossbow-B	1687	1802	6.8
Linebacker-Pr	2390	2450	2.5
Linebacker-A	2264	2348	3.7
Linebacker-B	2048	2196	7.2
Linebacker-C	2075	2220	7
Linebacker-D	2039	2188	7.3
NovaCat-Pr	2530	2572	1.7
NovaCat-A	2629	2629	0
NovaCat-B	2492	2496	0.2
NovaCat-C	1944	2080	7
NovaCat-D	2084	2147	3
NovaCat-Y	2429	2494	2.7
Thor-Pr	2298	2313	0.7
Thor-A	2145	2193	2.2
Thor-B	2159	2200	1.9
Thor-C	2379	2375	-0.2
Thor-D	2643	2519	-4.7
ViperPython	2813	2715	-3.5
MadCat-Pr	2737	2773	1.3
MadCat-A	2854	2926	2.5
MadCat-B	2224	2389	7.4
MadCat-C	2500	2631	5.2
MadCat-D	2682	2789	4
MadCat-Y	3107	3118	0.4
NightGyr-Pr	2830	2734	-3.4
NightGyr-A	2680	2680	0
NightGyr-B	2140	2248	5
NightGyr-C	2468	2519	2.1
NightGyr-D	2889	2755	-4.6
WarhammerIIC	2570	2648	3
ManOWar-Pr	1537	1620	5.4
ManOWar-A	2689	2672	-0.6
ManOWar-B	1843	1980	7.4
ManOWar-C	2437	2490	2.2
ManOWar-D	2499	2587	3.5
SavageCoyote-Pr	2613	2609	-0.2
SavageCoyote-A	2852	2704	-5.2
SavageCoyote-B	2284	2337	2.3
SavageCoyote-C	3189	2894	-9.3
SavageCoyote-Y	2734	2702	-1.2
Masakari-Pr	3194	3032	-5.1
Masakari-A	2399	2556	6.5
Masakari-B	2320	2478	6.8
Masakari-C	2998	3056	1.9
Masakari-Y	2764	2872	3.9
MarauderIIC	2680	2661	-0.7
BloodAsp-Pr	2654	2771	4.4
BloodAsp-A	3452	3163	-8.4
BloodAsp-B	2885	2962	2.7
BloodAsp-C	2270	2408	6.1
BloodAsp-D	2396	2569	7.2
Kingfisher-Pr	2401	2569	7
Kingfisher-A	2261	2423	7.2
Kingfisher-B	2472	2568	3.9
Kingfisher-C	2644	2806	6.1
Kingfisher-D	2364	2407	1.8
Gladiator-Pr	2749	2705	-1.6
Gladiator-A	3112	2991	-3.9
Gladiator-B	2940	2858	-2.8
Gladiator-C	2740	2698	-1.5
Gladiator-D	2698	2663	-1.3
Gladiator-Y	3275	3111	-5
Gladiator-MC	3169	3033	-4.3
Turkina-Pr	2944	2932	-0.4
Turkina-A	2906	2902	-0.1
Turkina-B	3420	3232	-5.5
Turkina-C	2798	2824	0.9
Hellstar	3084	3214	4.2
Daishi-Pr	2712	2805	3.4
Daishi-A	2855	2919	2.2
Daishi-B	2609	2657	1.8
Daishi-C	3610	3442	-4.7
Kodiak	2927	3000	2.5
Locust-1V	432	449	3.9
Locust-3V	490	534	9
Stinger-3R	359	388	8.1
Stinger-3G	497	538	8.2
Wasp-1A	384	419	9.1
Urbanmech-60	504	467	-7.3
Spider-5V	622	660	6.1
Jenner-D	875	826	-5.6
Panther-9R	769	813	5.7
Wolfhound-1	949	1030	8.5
Assassin-21	749	790	5.5
Cicada-2A	659	661	0.3
Blackjack-1	949	991	4.4
PhoenixHawk-1	1041	1071	2.9
Centurion-A	945	1009	6.8
Crab-20	1143	1202	5.2
Enforcer-4R	1032	1075	4.2
Hunchback-4G	1041	1092	4.9
Trebuchet-5N	1191	1185	-0.5
Griffin-1N	1272	1237	-2.8
ShadowHawk-2H	1064	1073	0.8
Wolverine-6R	1101	1124	2.1
Wolverine-6M	1291	1343	4
GrandDragon-1G	1300	1327	2.1
RegularDragon-1N	1125	1170	4
Rifleman-3N	1039	1103	6.2
Quickdraw-4G	1192	1196	0.3
Thunderbolt-5S	1335	1410	5.6
Thunderbolt-5SE	1414	1441	1.9
Crusader-3R	1317	1282	-2.7
Catapult-C1	1399	1420	1.5
Archer-2R	1477	1541	4.3
Avatar-Pr	1395	1578	13.1
Grasshopper-5H	1427	1483	3.9
Guillotine-4L	1400	1457	4.1
Warhammer-6R	1299	1325	2
Marauder-3R	1363	1412	3.6
Marauder-5CS	1648	1735	5.3
Marauder-5Y	1608	1672	4
Orion-K	1429	1501	5
Warhammer-II	1844	1965	6.6
Awesome-8Q	1605	1611	0.4
Charger-1A1	981	775	-21
Victor-9S	1360	1391	2.3
Zeus-6S	1348	1380	2.4
Zeus-6T	1436	1485	3.4
Battlemaster-1G	1519	1521	0.1
Stalker-3F	1559	1564	0.3
Banshee-3E	1422	1341	-5.7
Banshee-3S	1751	1721	-1.7
Atlas-7D	1897	1873	-1.3
Atlas-7K	2175	2195	0.9
KingCrab	1906	1899	-0.4
MarauderII-4A	2073	2027	-2.2
ThunderHawk-7S	2440	2521	3.3
ThunderHawk-7X	2577	2598	0.8

[monbvol]

I don't know about others but I would find it helpful to know what changes to the formula you've made to get these values before I can give any meaningful feedback.

[NavPoint]

I'd rather keep it a black box for now because it's very easy to get hung up on details.
It's mostly an entirely new formula, but some things are similar. Weapons, particularly.

I'd like to think that we raised the BV of undercosted things(Warhawk-A) and reduced the BV of obviously overpriced things(Warhawk-Prime), so I'm interested to see if the results are in line with people's feelings about what things should cost.

[monbvol]

Well that does make it a lot tougher but off hand any system that causes the 3N Rifleman's BV to go up probably needs some work.

[NavPoint]

Yeah I thought it was funny that the 3N Rifleman was the only (so far) 'Mech that gained BV specifically in the weapons subsection of the new formula.

But its BV is still a significant discount vs. the other introtech heavies. Does it make more sense to compare the Rifleman to, say, the Enforcer?

[monbvol]

Since I'm at work and can only take a few minutes here and there to look at and not knowing the specifics of the formula, I can only say it feels like almost all mechs that are known to have heat issues when using all their firepower are getting over valued in this formula.

[DevianID]

So the rifleman 3n is actually a pretty undercosted mech for the time period.  It does above average in the bv versus bv breakdown provided by death from above.  Yes it has low armor, but you pay for armor with bv.  Yes it has too many guns, but too many is better than not enough, as is the case of the ostscout and most 20 ton mechs, who are basicly negative battle value.

[Cannonshop]

So the rifleman 3n is actually a pretty undercosted mech for the time period.  It does above average in the bv versus bv breakdown provided by death from above.  Yes it has low armor, but you pay for armor with bv.  Yes it has too many guns, but too many is better than not enough, as is the case of the ostscout and most 20 ton mechs, who are basicly negative battle value.

NOT if you use them like they're supposed to be used they aren't.  Most 20 tonners lose out because players try to run them like atlases with jumpjets, instead of using them for what they're for.

[NavPoint]

A second 'Mech that gains BV in the weapons subsection has appeared: The Blood Asp-D. Unsurprisingly, it has a Rifleman-esque payload.

[DevianID]

NOT if you use them like they're supposed to be used they aren't.  Most 20 tonners lose out because players try to run them like atlases with jumpjets, instead of using them for what they're for.

So I feel what you are saying, but... You are wrong.  Battle value is designed for comparing what happens when two forces are trying to kill each other on a fixed game mat area.  Yes, a stinger has an infinite value when used to roam around rogue picking off picket infantry across a 50mile contested battle line.  But battle value is used to balance games of battle tech, which has a narrow focus of smashing mechs together with no other context.  So in the context of battletech, a stinger is not worth it's battle value compared to an equal battle value in, say, Panthers.

This tweak of the calculation massive discounts higher mobility strikers, which in the context of standard battletech is probably more correct.  Alpha strike does a much better job at balancing with PV, and still has the issue with fast strikers with heavy medium range attacks being too costly, all owing to the fact of how the 2d6 curve works.

[monbvol]

That just points out the flaw of any single value balancing system though, in one context a unit is going to be over valued but in another it is going to be under valued.  Even when considering the primary constraints of the game being about 'smashing mechs into each other'.

Which is a premise I understand most players follow when playing the game but Battletech can be more and still be worth putting minis and mapsheets down.  So it's one I don't entirely agree with.

[NavPoint]

Here are some numbers that come from the BV2 formula with three minor tweaks:

1.) MASC is counted as if it's active only half of the time.
2.) Extra AMS and AMS ammo are ignored.
3.) The way we add up weapon BV changes in a way I described in another thread. Currently, the formula simply adds BV from highest-lowest until it hits a heat threshold, and then adds half the BV of all remaining heat-generated weapons. This results in certain severely-overcosted things like the Puma-Prime which pays full price for weapons it only uses half the time. My change orders the weapons the same, but counts the first weapon that overheats us at half value. It then ignores that weapon's heat and continues adding the remaining weapons at full value provided we still haven't hit the heat threshold. (This is why the Rifleman-3N's value goes up; It gets a discounted large laser, but then pays extra for multiple autocannons and a medium laser that, combined, have higher BV and still generate less heat.)

Name	BV2	BV2.1	Change2%
Dasher-Pr	1251	1123	-10.2
Dasher-A	639	591	-7.5
Dasher-B	1064	965	-9.3
Dasher-C	741	666	-10.1
Dasher-D	2307	1885	-18.3
Dasher-Aletha	1388	1251	-9.9
Koshi-Pr	871	871	0
Koshi-A	608	505	-16.9
Koshi-B	1209	1209	0
Koshi-C	1320	1320	0
Koshi-D	842	842	0
FireFalcon-Pr	1451	1451	0
FireFalcon-A	822	822	0
FireFalcon-B	1570	1570	0
FireFalcon-C	1004	1004	0
FireFalcon-D	826	826	0
LocustIIC	1100	1100	0
LocustIIC-3	980	980	0
Vixen	1596	1596	0
Hellion-Pr	1873	1743	-6.9
Hellion-A	1543	1463	-5.2
Hellion-B	1569	1408	-10.3
Hellion-C	2095	1945	-7.2
Hellion-D	1761	1641	-6.8
Hankyu-Pr	1334	1334	0
Hankyu-A	1117	1117	0
Hankyu-B	1076	1076	0
Hankyu-C	1840	1716	-6.7
Hankyu-D	1080	1080	0
Uller-Pr	1085	1085	0
Uller-A	1310	1310	0
Uller-B	1087	1087	0
Uller-C	1147	978	-14.7
Uller-D	1142	1142	0
Puma-Pr	2083	1702	-18.3
Puma-A	1437	1437	0
Puma-B	1422	1422	0
Puma-C	1372	1372	0
Puma-D	1255	1255	0
Cougar-Pr	1485	1485	0
Cougar-A	1697	1697	0
Cougar-B	1774	1774	0
Cougar-C	1785	1711	-4.1
Cougar-D	1309	1309	0
Peregrine	1434	1434	0
Dragonfly-Pr	1450	1450	0
Dragonfly-A	1989	1858	-6.6
Dragonfly-B	1830	1801	-1.6
Dragonfly-C	1344	1337	-0.5
Dragonfly-D	1779	1779	0
Phantom-Pr	1159	1159	0
Phantom-A	1410	1410	0
Phantom-B	1096	1096	0
Phantom-C	1590	1590	0
Phantom-D	1581	1581	0
Phantom-H	1178	1178	0
Pouncer-Pr	2557	2107	-17.6
Pouncer-A	2081	2081	0
Pouncer-B	1836	1733	-5.6
Pouncer-C	1653	1653	0
Pouncer-D	2246	2246	0
BattleCobra-Pr	1487	1487	0
BattleCobra-A	1466	1466	0
BattleCobra-B	1892	1619	-14.4
BattleCobra-H	1592	1535	-3.6
Fenris-Pr	1678	1678	0
Fenris-A	1323	1323	0
Fenris-B	1461	1461	0
Fenris-C	1211	1211	0
Fenris-D	1653	1653	0
Grendel-Pr	2290	2202	-3.8
Grendel-A	2031	2031	0
Grendel-B	1903	1903	0
Grendel-C	1465	1465	0
Grendel-D	2212	2212	0
ShadowCat-Pr	2156	1994	-7.5
ShadowCat-A	2220	2053	-7.5
ShadowCat-B	2420	2156	-10.9
ShadowCat-Y	2503	2194	-12.3
Nobori-Nin-Pr	2108	2108	0
Nobori-Nin-A	2034	2034	0
Nobori-Nin-B	2156	2156	0
Nobori-Nin-C	2199	2172	-1.2
Nobori-Nin-D	2007	2007	0
BlackHawk-Pr	2663	2568	-3.6
BlackHawk-A	2422	2115	-12.7
BlackHawk-B	1543	1543	0
BlackHawk-C	1515	1515	0
BlackHawk-D	1450	1450	0
BlackHawk-H	1832	1765	-3.7
BlackHawk-S	2056	2056	0
BlackHawk-Y	2153	2126	-1.3
HunchbackIIC	1679	1634	-2.7
Ryoken-Pr	2073	2073	0
Ryoken-A	2319	2236	-3.6
Ryoken-B	2281	2200	-3.6
Ryoken-C	1881	1881	0
Ryoken-D	1863	1863	0
Ryoken-Y	2350	2350	0
BlackLanner-Pr	2268	2085	-8.1
BlackLanner-A	2308	2170	-6
BlackLanner-B	1961	1846	-5.9
BlackLanner-C	2523	2250	-10.8
BlackLanner-D	1809	1709	-5.5
Goshawk	2368	2368	0
StoopingHawk-Pr	2147	2052	-4.4
StoopingHawk-A	2319	2319	0
StoopingHawk-B	2111	1976	-6.4
StoopingHawk-C	2435	2435	0
StoopingHawk-D	1838	1838	0
Vulture-Pr	2351	2200	-6.4
Vulture-A	1923	1923	0
Vulture-B	2284	2352	3
Vulture-C	1892	1892	0
Vulture-Y	2242	2242	0
Loki-Pr	2654	2654	0
Loki-A	1948	1948	0
Loki-B	1592	1592	0
Loki-M	2200	2159	-1.9
Loki-Y	2666	2571	-3.6
CauldronBorn-Pr	1952	1952	0
CauldronBorn-A	2429	2335	-3.9
CauldronBorn-B	2535	2535	0
CauldronBorn-C	1831	1831	0
CauldronBorn-D	2228	2154	-3.3
CauldronBorn-Y	2447	2430	-0.7
Crossbow-Pr	1829	1829	0
Crossbow-A	1797	1797	0
Crossbow-B	1687	1687	0
Linebacker-Pr	2390	2349	-1.7
Linebacker-A	2264	2224	-1.8
Linebacker-B	2048	2048	0
Linebacker-C	2075	2036	-1.9
Linebacker-D	2039	2039	0
NovaCat-Pr	2530	2530	0
NovaCat-A	2629	2629	0
NovaCat-B	2492	2432	-2.4
NovaCat-C	1944	1944	0
NovaCat-D	2084	2017	-3.2
NovaCat-Y	2429	2429	0
Thor-Pr	2298	2298	0
Thor-A	2145	2145	0
Thor-B	2159	2159	0
Thor-C	2379	2379	0
Thor-D	2643	2573	-2.6
ViperPython	2813	2708	-3.7
MadCat-Pr	2737	2661	-2.8
MadCat-A	2854	2854	0
MadCat-B	2224	2224	0
MadCat-C	2500	2500	0
MadCat-D	2682	2682	0
MadCat-Y	3107	3107	0
NightGyr-Pr	2830	2754	-2.7
NightGyr-A	2680	2680	0
NightGyr-B	2140	2140	0
NightGyr-C	2468	2468	0
NightGyr-D	2889	2784	-3.6
WarhammerIIC	2570	2570	0
ManOWar-Pr	1537	1537	0
ManOWar-A	2689	2605	-3.1
ManOWar-B	1843	1843	0
ManOWar-C	2437	2385	-2.1
ManOWar-D	2499	2499	0
SavageCoyote-Pr	2613	2613	0
SavageCoyote-A	2852	2787	-2.3
SavageCoyote-B	2284	2284	0
SavageCoyote-C	3189	3098	-2.9
SavageCoyote-Y	2734	2734	0
Masakari-Pr	3194	2967	-7.1
Masakari-A	2399	2399	0
Masakari-B	2320	2320	0
Masakari-C	2998	2998	0
Masakari-Y	2764	2764	0
MarauderIIC	2680	2618	-2.3
BloodAsp-Pr	2654	2654	0
BloodAsp-A	3452	3243	-6.1
BloodAsp-B	2885	2885	0
BloodAsp-C	2270	2270	0
BloodAsp-D	2396	2423	1.1
Kingfisher-Pr	2401	2401	0
Kingfisher-A	2261	2261	0
Kingfisher-B	2472	2429	-1.7
Kingfisher-C	2644	2644	0
Kingfisher-D	2364	2246	-5
Gladiator-Pr	2749	2636	-4.1
Gladiator-A	3112	2984	-4.1
Gladiator-B	2940	2819	-4.1
Gladiator-C	2740	2627	-4.1
Gladiator-D	2698	2587	-4.1
Gladiator-Y	3275	3140	-4.1
Gladiator-MC	3169	3037	-4.2
Turkina-Pr	2944	2944	0
Turkina-A	2906	2906	0
Turkina-B	3420	3336	-2.5
Turkina-C	2798	2794	-0.1
Hellstar	3084	3084	0
Daishi-Pr	2712	2712	0
Daishi-A	2855	2843	-0.4
Daishi-B	2609	2554	-2.1
Daishi-C	3610	3554	-1.6
Kodiak	2927	2867	-2
Locust-1V	432	432	0
Locust-3V	490	490	0
Stinger-3R	359	359	0
Stinger-3G	497	497	0
Wasp-1A	384	384	0
Wasp-1W	373	373	0
Urbanmech-60	504	504	0
Spider-5V	622	622	0
Jenner-D	875	826	-5.6
Panther-9R	769	769	0
Wolfhound-1	949	949	0
Assassin-21	749	749	0
Cicada-2A	659	659	0
Blackjack-1	949	949	0
PhoenixHawk-1	1041	997	-4.2
Centurion-A	945	945	0
Crab-20	1143	1143	0
Enforcer-4R	1032	1032	0
Hunchback-4G	1041	1041	0
Trebuchet-5N	1191	1128	-5.3
Griffin-1N	1272	1193	-6.2
ShadowHawk-2H	1064	1064	0
Wolverine-6R	1101	1101	0
Wolverine-6M	1291	1291	0
GrandDragon-1G	1300	1269	-2.4
RegularDragon-1N	1125	1125	0
Rifleman-3N	1039	1074	3.4
Quickdraw-4G	1192	1172	-1.7
Thunderbolt-5S	1335	1335	0
Thunderbolt-5SE	1414	1383	-2.2
Crusader-3R	1317	1317	0
Catapult-C1	1399	1368	-2.2
Archer-2R	1477	1451	-1.8
Avatar-Pr	1395	1395	0
Caesar-3R	1578	1578	0
Grasshopper-5H	1427	1427	0
Guillotine-4L	1400	1400	0
Warhammer-6R	1299	1276	-1.8
Marauder-3R	1363	1363	0
Marauder-5CS	1648	1587	-3.7
Marauder-5Y	1608	1582	-1.6
Orion-K	1429	1429	0
Warhammer-II	1844	1844	0
Awesome-8Q	1605	1605	0
Charger-1A1	981	981	0
Victor-9S	1360	1360	0
Zeus-6S	1348	1348	0
Zeus-6T	1436	1436	0
Battlemaster-1G	1519	1494	-1.6
Stalker-3F	1559	1559	0
Banshee-3E	1422	1422	0
Banshee-3S	1751	1731	-1.1
Atlas-7D	1897	1886	-0.6
Atlas-7K	2175	2106	-3.2
KingCrab	1906	1906	0
MarauderII-4A	2073	2044	-1.4
ThunderHawk-7S	2440	2440	0
ThunderHawk-7X	2577	2554	-0.9

[NavPoint]

The Offensive section of the BV2 formula incorporates the weight of the 'Mech. This is smart because it gives us a minimum possible value (to avoid extremely low-cost weaponless 'Mechs), and because even 'Mechs that have no weapons still have offensive capability(punch/kick/etc.) that should be accounted for.

One complaint I've seen about trying to balance BV games is that you can't take Zellbrigen into account. One part of Zellbrigen says Thou Shalt Not Throw The First Punch, so it occurred to me that we can give Clan 'Mechs a BV discount by assuming they don't use physical attacks. Removing a Clan 'Mech's weight from its offensive BV yields the following results (cumulative with the above stated tweaks):

Name	BV2	BV2.Zell	Change3%
Dasher-Pr	1251	1070	-14.5
Dasher-A	639	538	-15.8
Dasher-B	1064	912	-14.3
Dasher-C	741	613	-17.3
Dasher-D	2307	1832	-20.6
Dasher-Aletha	1388	1198	-13.7
Koshi-Pr	871	817	-6.2
Koshi-A	608	451	-25.8
Koshi-B	1209	1155	-4.5
Koshi-C	1320	1266	-4.1
Koshi-D	842	788	-6.4
FireFalcon-Pr	1451	1404	-3.2
FireFalcon-A	822	775	-5.7
FireFalcon-B	1570	1523	-3
FireFalcon-C	1004	957	-4.7
FireFalcon-D	826	778	-5.8
LocustIIC	1100	1052	-4.4
LocustIIC-3	980	933	-4.8
Vixen	1596	1531	-4.1
Hellion-Pr	1873	1684	-10.1
Hellion-A	1543	1404	-9
Hellion-B	1569	1349	-14
Hellion-C	2095	1886	-10
Hellion-D	1761	1582	-10.2
Hankyu-Pr	1334	1265	-5.2
Hankyu-A	1117	1048	-6.2
Hankyu-B	1076	1007	-6.4
Hankyu-C	1840	1647	-10.5
Hankyu-D	1080	1011	-6.4
Uller-Pr	1085	1040	-4.1
Uller-A	1310	1265	-3.4
Uller-B	1087	1042	-4.1
Uller-C	1147	933	-18.7
Uller-D	1142	1097	-3.9
Puma-Pr	2083	1649	-20.8
Puma-A	1437	1384	-3.7
Puma-B	1422	1369	-3.7
Puma-C	1372	1320	-3.8
Puma-D	1255	1203	-4.1
Cougar-Pr	1485	1437	-3.2
Cougar-A	1697	1649	-2.8
Cougar-B	1774	1726	-2.7
Cougar-C	1785	1663	-6.8
Cougar-D	1309	1261	-3.7
Peregrine	1434	1368	-4.6
Dragonfly-Pr	1450	1353	-6.7
Dragonfly-A	1989	1760	-11.5
Dragonfly-B	1830	1703	-6.9
Dragonfly-C	1344	1239	-7.8
Dragonfly-D	1779	1681	-5.5
Phantom-Pr	1159	1072	-7.5
Phantom-A	1410	1323	-6.2
Phantom-B	1096	1010	-7.8
Phantom-C	1590	1504	-5.4
Phantom-D	1581	1495	-5.4
Phantom-H	1178	1092	-7.3
Pouncer-Pr	2557	2031	-20.6
Pouncer-A	2081	2005	-3.7
Pouncer-B	1836	1657	-9.7
Pouncer-C	1653	1577	-4.6
Pouncer-D	2246	2171	-3.3
BattleCobra-Pr	1487	1427	-4
BattleCobra-A	1466	1406	-4.1
BattleCobra-B	1892	1559	-17.6
BattleCobra-H	1592	1475	-7.3
Fenris-Pr	1678	1593	-5.1
Fenris-A	1323	1238	-6.4
Fenris-B	1461	1376	-5.8
Fenris-C	1211	1126	-7
Fenris-D	1653	1568	-5.1
Grendel-Pr	2290	2098	-8.4
Grendel-A	2031	1928	-5.1
Grendel-B	1903	1799	-5.5
Grendel-C	1465	1362	-7
Grendel-D	2212	2108	-4.7
ShadowCat-Pr	2156	1900	-11.9
ShadowCat-A	2220	1959	-11.8
ShadowCat-B	2420	2062	-14.8
ShadowCat-Y	2503	2100	-16.1
Nobori-Nin-Pr	2108	2020	-4.2
Nobori-Nin-A	2034	1946	-4.3
Nobori-Nin-B	2156	2068	-4.1
Nobori-Nin-C	2199	2084	-5.2
Nobori-Nin-D	2007	1919	-4.4
BlackHawk-Pr	2663	2480	-6.9
BlackHawk-A	2422	2027	-16.3
BlackHawk-B	1543	1455	-5.7
BlackHawk-C	1515	1427	-5.8
BlackHawk-D	1450	1362	-6.1
BlackHawk-H	1832	1677	-8.5
BlackHawk-S	2056	1968	-4.3
BlackHawk-Y	2153	2038	-5.3
CrimsonLangur-Pr	1952	1844	-5.5
CrimsonLangur-A	2003	1915	-4.4
CrimsonLangur-B	2210	1971	-10.8
HunchbackIIC	1679	1565	-6.8
Ryoken-Pr	2073	1990	-4
Ryoken-A	2319	2153	-7.2
Ryoken-B	2281	2118	-7.1
Ryoken-C	1881	1798	-4.4
Ryoken-D	1863	1780	-4.5
Ryoken-Y	2350	2268	-3.5
BlackLanner-Pr	2268	1977	-12.8
BlackLanner-A	2308	2062	-10.7
BlackLanner-B	1961	1738	-11.4
BlackLanner-C	2523	2142	-15.1
BlackLanner-D	1809	1601	-11.5
Goshawk	2368	2264	-4.4
StoopingHawk-Pr	2147	1955	-8.9
StoopingHawk-A	2319	2222	-4.2
StoopingHawk-B	2111	1901	-9.9
StoopingHawk-C	2435	2339	-3.9
StoopingHawk-D	1838	1763	-4.1
Vulture-Pr	2351	2118	-9.9
Vulture-A	1923	1840	-4.3
Vulture-B	2284	2270	-0.6
Vulture-C	1892	1810	-4.3
Vulture-Y	2242	2160	-3.7
Loki-Pr	2654	2565	-3.4
Loki-A	1948	1859	-4.6
Loki-B	1592	1503	-5.6
Loki-M	2200	2070	-5.9
Loki-Y	2666	2482	-6.9
CauldronBorn-Pr	1952	1863	-4.6
CauldronBorn-A	2429	2246	-7.5
CauldronBorn-B	2535	2445	-3.6
CauldronBorn-C	1831	1742	-4.9
CauldronBorn-D	2228	2065	-7.3
CauldronBorn-Y	2447	2341	-4.3
Crossbow-Pr	1829	1740	-4.9
Crossbow-A	1797	1707	-5
Crossbow-B	1687	1598	-5.3
Linebacker-Pr	2390	2251	-5.8
Linebacker-A	2264	2126	-6.1
Linebacker-B	2048	1951	-4.7
Linebacker-C	2075	1939	-6.6
Linebacker-D	2039	1941	-4.8
NovaCat-Pr	2530	2452	-3.1
NovaCat-A	2629	2533	-3.7
NovaCat-B	2492	2353	-5.6
NovaCat-C	1944	1866	-4
NovaCat-D	2084	1938	-7
NovaCat-Y	2429	2351	-3.2
Thor-Pr	2298	2175	-5.4
Thor-Pi	2224	2101	-5.5
Thor-A	2145	2022	-5.7
Thor-B	2159	2036	-5.7
Thor-C	2379	2256	-5.2
Thor-D	2643	2449	-7.3
ViperPython	2813	2576	-8.4
MadCat-Pr	2737	2558	-6.5
MadCat-A	2854	2752	-3.6
MadCat-B	2224	2121	-4.6
MadCat-C	2500	2398	-4.1
MadCat-D	2682	2579	-3.8
MadCat-Y	3107	3004	-3.3
NightGyr-Pr	2830	2651	-6.3
NightGyr-A	2680	2578	-3.8
NightGyr-B	2140	2037	-4.8
NightGyr-C	2468	2366	-4.1
NightGyr-D	2889	2681	-7.2
WarhammerIIC	2570	2481	-3.5
ManOWar-Pr	1537	1427	-7.2
ManOWar-A	2689	2495	-7.2
ManOWar-B	1843	1734	-5.9
ManOWar-C	2437	2275	-6.6
ManOWar-D	2499	2389	-4.4
SavageCoyote-Pr	2613	2528	-3.3
SavageCoyote-A	2852	2682	-6
SavageCoyote-B	2284	2199	-3.7
SavageCoyote-C	3189	2992	-6.2
SavageCoyote-Y	2734	2649	-3.1
Masakari-Pr	3194	2872	-10.1
Masakari-A	2399	2304	-4
Masakari-B	2320	2225	-4.1
Masakari-C	2998	2902	-3.2
Masakari-Y	2764	2669	-3.4
MarauderIIC	2680	2523	-5.9
BloodAsp-Pr	2654	2553	-3.8
BloodAsp-A	3452	3119	-9.6
BloodAsp-B	2885	2784	-3.5
BloodAsp-C	2270	2170	-4.4
BloodAsp-D	2396	2322	-3.1
Kingfisher-Pr	2401	2300	-4.2
Kingfisher-A	2261	2160	-4.5
Kingfisher-B	2472	2328	-5.8
Kingfisher-C	2644	2543	-3.8
Kingfisher-D	2364	2146	-9.2
Gladiator-Pr	2749	2488	-9.5
Gladiator-A	3112	2835	-8.9
Gladiator-B	2940	2671	-9.1
Gladiator-C	2740	2479	-9.5
Gladiator-D	2698	2439	-9.6
Gladiator-Y	3275	2991	-8.7
Gladiator-MC	3169	2889	-8.8
Turkina-Pr	2944	2826	-4
Turkina-A	2906	2788	-4.1
Turkina-B	3420	3219	-5.9
Turkina-C	2798	2676	-4.4
Hellstar	3084	2978	-3.4
Daishi-Pr	2712	2612	-3.7
Daishi-A	2855	2743	-3.9
Daishi-B	2609	2454	-5.9
Daishi-C	3610	3430	-5
Kodiak	2927	2755	-5.9
Behemoth	3001	2862	-4.6
Locust-1V	432	432	0
Locust-3V	490	490	0
Stinger-3R	359	359	0
Stinger-3G	497	497	0
Wasp-1A	384	384	0
Wasp-1W	373	373	0
Urbanmech-60	504	504	0
Spider-5V	622	622	0
Jenner-D	875	826	-5.6
Panther-9R	769	769	0
Wolfhound-1	949	949	0
Assassin-21	749	749	0
Cicada-2A	659	659	0
Blackjack-1	949	949	0
PhoenixHawk-1	1041	997	-4.2
Centurion-A	945	945	0
Crab-20	1143	1143	0
Enforcer-4R	1032	1032	0
Hunchback-4G	1041	1041	0
Trebuchet-5N	1191	1128	-5.3
Griffin-1N	1272	1193	-6.2
ShadowHawk-2H	1064	1064	0
Wolverine-6R	1101	1101	0
Wolverine-6M	1291	1291	0
GrandDragon-1G	1300	1269	-2.4
RegularDragon-1N	1125	1125	0
Rifleman-3N	1039	1074	3.4
Quickdraw-4G	1192	1172	-1.7
Thunderbolt-5S	1335	1335	0
Thunderbolt-5SE	1414	1383	-2.2
Crusader-3R	1317	1317	0
Catapult-C1	1399	1368	-2.2
Archer-2R	1477	1451	-1.8
Avatar-Pr	1395	1395	0
Caesar-3R	1578	1578	0
Grasshopper-5H	1427	1427	0
Guillotine-4L	1400	1400	0
Warhammer-6R	1299	1276	-1.8
Marauder-3R	1363	1363	0
Marauder-5CS	1648	1587	-3.7
Marauder-5Y	1608	1582	-1.6
Orion-K	1429	1429	0
Warhammer-II	1844	1844	0
Awesome-8Q	1605	1605	0
Charger-1A1	981	981	0
Victor-9S	1360	1360	0
Zeus-6S	1348	1348	0
Zeus-6T	1436	1436	0
Battlemaster-1G	1519	1494	-1.6
Stalker-3F	1559	1559	0
Banshee-3E	1422	1422	0
Banshee-3S	1751	1731	-1.1
Atlas-7D	1897	1886	-0.6
Atlas-7K	2175	2106	-3.2
KingCrab	1906	1906	0
MarauderII-4A	2073	2044	-1.4
ThunderHawk-7S	2440	2440	0
ThunderHawk-7X	2577	2554	-0.9

[monbvol]

I wouldn't make that adjustment for two reasons:

1. It's never really been so much that the Clan's don't use physical attacks but more they see it as 'I have these perfectly good weapons to use' but even then we can see even this attitude starts to erode and Clan Mechwarriors start using physical attacks.

2. Having to adjust the BV if an Inner Sphere pilot gets to the controls of a salvaged Clan mech or one bought from the Diamond Sharks seems an unnecessary hassle.

[DevianID]

I think a better way to use the information from zellbrigen is to take the average % the clans lose if following zellbrigen, and see if it matches up with a piloting skill increase.  Thus if a clan follows strict zell their piloting is temporarily increase by one, but if they break zell they lose this pilot skill bump

[Cannonshop]

So I feel what you are saying, but... You are wrong.  Battle value is designed for comparing what happens when two forces are trying to kill each other on a fixed game mat area.  Yes, a stinger has an infinite value when used to roam around rogue picking off picket infantry across a 50mile contested battle line.  But battle value is used to balance games of battle tech, which has a narrow focus of smashing mechs together with no other context.  So in the context of battletech, a stinger is not worth it's battle value compared to an equal battle value in, say, Panthers.

This tweak of the calculation massive discounts higher mobility strikers, which in the context of standard battletech is probably more correct.  Alpha strike does a much better job at balancing with PV, and still has the issue with fast strikers with heavy medium range attacks being too costly, all owing to the fact of how the 2d6 curve works.

I understand your position (I've also argued it from your side from time to time when people tried to insert subjective conditions) and I feel, for the most part, that you're right about the purpose of BV being an objective balancing rather than conditional or subjective.

that said, I'm still not entirely convinced that those units are either under, or over, valued.

espl. since we can't check the author's work, since he's not sharing his formulas.  The table isn't much good if it can't be checked for errors, it ends up being purely arbitrary, which is NOT good for an objective system like BV.

[monbvol]

I understand your position (I've also argued it from your side from time to time when people tried to insert subjective conditions) and I feel, for the most part, that you're right about the purpose of BV being an objective balancing rather than conditional or subjective.

that said, I'm still not entirely convinced that those units are either under, or over, valued.

espl. since we can't check the author's work, since he's not sharing his formulas.  The table isn't much good if it can't be checked for errors, it ends up being purely arbitrary, which is NOT good for an objective system like BV.

To be fair they have started giving bits and pieces of their methodology, like explaining why Rifleman BV goes up.

I'm still not sure if I completely agree with the decision as the Rifleman is already over BVed IMO under current system as it just can't lean on the triggers very hard at all, either because it'll overheat or because it'll run out of ammunition in short order.

But then again I've not been a particular fan of single value balance systems for a while now.

[Atarlost]

To be fair they have started giving bits and pieces of their methodology, like explaining why Rifleman BV goes up.

Cannonshop didn't say we didn't have hints about the methodology, he said we can't check the math. 

There's also the question of if it's changing enough to be worth the trouble.  You'd probably have to fork a mech builder to use a custom BV formula since doing all of the mechs by hand would be too error prone even if it wasn't also too much work.  Then someone would have to maintain that fork or convince the main branch maintainer to merge it in as an official unofficial option.  And then you have to convince other people to also switch unless you only play against the bot.  If someone's going to go to all that trouble I'd imagine they'd like to fix as many problems as possible.  If we really want an unofficial community BV formula the first step is probably to enumerate BV paradoxes to make sure we address all that it's practical to address and have at least noted whether the ones that aren't addressed are too complicated or too controversial.

I mean, I don't really have a horse here because I think BV gets in the way of making narratively plausible scenarios, but it seems to me as though something's more likely to come of this if it is a community effort not just one person addressing his personal bugaboos. 

[monbvol]

Cannonshop didn't say we didn't have hints about the methodology, he said we can't check the math. 

There's also the question of if it's changing enough to be worth the trouble.  You'd probably have to fork a mech builder to use a custom BV formula since doing all of the mechs by hand would be too error prone even if it wasn't also too much work.  Then someone would have to maintain that fork or convince the main branch maintainer to merge it in as an official unofficial option.  And then you have to convince other people to also switch unless you only play against the bot.  If someone's going to go to all that trouble I'd imagine they'd like to fix as many problems as possible.  If we really want an unofficial community BV formula the first step is probably to enumerate BV paradoxes to make sure we address all that it's practical to address and have at least noted whether the ones that aren't addressed are too complicated or too controversial.

I mean, I don't really have a horse here because I think BV gets in the way of making narratively plausible scenarios, but it seems to me as though something's more likely to come of this if it is a community effort not just one person addressing his personal bugaboos. 

Ultimately I do agree with the point that until the math/process is fully shared any feedback we can offer is going to be inherently subjective to the point that it may well be useless.

[NavPoint]

BV3, vaguely, is just a product of speed, power, and toughness. Speed is the part I'm least sure about, but I'm putting it off until I can deal with ammo explosions.

If anyone's interested in helping out, try to come up with an algorithm for rating how dangerous a 'Mech's ammo is to itself. "How much less tough am I because this is here?"

BV2 simply counts every explosive ammo slot that CASE can't save you from as -15 points in one part of the formula (-1 for gauss slots).
BV3 treats each slot as a -20% multiplicative reduction to the 'Mech's internal structure, which is a little better but not great.

Both are flawed in that they don't consider how well 'protected' each slot may be within its location. For example, a Griffin's LRM ammo is less dangerous to itself than a Crusader's LRM ammo. A critical hit to a Griffin's right torso has only a 1/3 chance to destroy the 'Mech, while a critical hit to either side torso on a Crusader has a 100% chance to destroy the 'Mech. But both are counted the same at -30 points. Relatedly, a Thunder Hawk-7X's gauss rifles are far more dangerous to itself than the Griffin's LRM ammo, but BV2 counts those torso GRs as only -14 points. BV3 turns them into a 96% reduction in the value of its internal structure.

[monbvol]

BV3, vaguely, is just a product of speed, power, and toughness. Speed is the part I'm least sure about, but I'm putting it off until I can deal with ammo explosions.

If anyone's interested in helping out, try to come up with an algorithm for rating how dangerous a 'Mech's ammo is to itself. "How much less tough am I because this is here?"

BV2 simply counts every explosive ammo slot that CASE can't save you from as -15 points in one part of the formula (-1 for gauss slots).
BV3 treats each slot as a -20% multiplicative reduction to the 'Mech's internal structure, which is a little better but not great.

Both are flawed in that they don't consider how well 'protected' each slot may be within its location. For example, a Griffin's LRM ammo is less dangerous to itself than a Crusader's LRM ammo. A critical hit to a Griffin's right torso has only a 1/3 chance to destroy the 'Mech, while a critical hit to either side torso on a Crusader has a 100% chance to destroy the 'Mech. But both are counted the same at -30 points. Relatedly, a Thunder Hawk-7X's gauss rifles are far more dangerous to itself than the Griffin's LRM ammo, but BV2 counts those torso GRs as only -14 points. BV3 turns them into a 96% reduction in the value of its internal structure.

BV2 does modify ammo BV if it is placed in the arms, even without CASE or CASE II.   Beyond doing that I'm not sure what could be realistically done without a process that examine each design individually.

[BATTLEMASTER]

Just discovered this thread from another post.  For 'mechs that mount both MASC/supercharger and jump jets, I'd take the higher BV cost of the two pieces of equipment and use that instead of counting both at the same time since a 'mech can only either run or jump in a turn, not both at the same time.