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Author Topic: Battletech stronger than ever, time for some official rules change?  (Read 4556 times)

Daryk

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Daemion

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I thought they were 'experimental (level 3) rules, so not everyone used them??

Last I knew, you were correct.  And, I, for one, disagree with them just by dint of how Aerospace are targeted.  There's a point of diminishing returns with speed and defense.
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pokefan548

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Aerospace don't use TMMs, they use AoAs.

TMMs up to +6 have been standard ever since Total Warfare at least.
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Daemion

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Must be a later errata, because my copy tops out at 4.  5 if you include Jump.

And, it should say something that Aerospace don't use TMMs.  Look how fast they move.  You have some Mechs that can keep pace on the ground. There's a problem there.

Rules for rules-sake with no consideration for how it appears or integrates elsewhere have been a bane for Total Warfare.
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Charistoph

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BUT on the lights..  Bring back the mods above 10 speed, for movement mods..

Do you mean Attacker Modifier, or Target Modifier?

I thought that was only for gravity mods.
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pokefan548

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Must be a later errata, because my copy tops out at 4.  5 if you include Jump.

And, it should say something that Aerospace don't use TMMs.  Look how fast they move.  You have some Mechs that can keep pace on the ground. There's a problem there.

Rules for rules-sake with no consideration for how it appears or integrates elsewhere have been a bane for Total Warfare.
Doesn't appear to be errata. My copy of TW has it up to +6 (before jumping), and the errata page says  nothing about it.

And, while 'Mechs can go fast, I would dearly like to see a 'Mech that can keep pace with the average 6/9 fighter.
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Daemion

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Doesn't appear to be errata. My copy of TW has it up to +6 (before jumping), and the errata page says  nothing about it.

And, while 'Mechs can go fast, I would dearly like to see a 'Mech that can keep pace with the average 6/9 fighter.

As I said, My copy is one of the early ones, and it tops out at 4.  So, yours is a later printing.

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Daemion

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As I said, My copy is one of the early ones, and it tops out at 4.  So, yours is a later printing.


Okay.  I had to check.  It's one with part of the spine picture you can get when you assemble all the books in the series.  Copyright 2006.  In the tables in the back, it is, indeed, up to +6. But, it's a huge jump to get there.  Even +5 is hard to reach. 

I don't know why I forgot this, because I had combed the thing over when I first got my hands on it. 

I think I dismissed the values because you have to have something that moves 18-24 hexes to get that +5.  As I said, that's a large jump.  Not very many canon designs that can get there, and most of them are oddballs that my group doesn't use.  And, you can only get the 6 TMM when you move 25+ hexes in a movement phase.  With next to no ground units I can think of that can reach that speed, including VToLs, it's almost not worth having.  Maybe the new AirMech modes for LAMS can get up there, but those rules are so laughable I don't want to use those units. 

I don't recall it being so steep with the Max Tech optional expanded TMMs.

[checks]
Nope.  Not near as steep. 
10-13 = +4
14-18 = +5
19-24 = +6
25+    = +7

So, I stand corrected.  Selective gamer memory. Happens when one gets old enough, I guess. I'm now in my 40s.

I could see some people wanting the easier-to-reach expanded TMMs over what TW offers. As I said, they're almost not worth having. 
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Daemion

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Okay.  Back on topic, I find it interesting that a lot of the meta details people want can be justified as a form of Tech.  Equipment that performs a certain way, imparting certain benefits.  If you can conceive it, you can try it in the form of equipment or construction.

But, if this is a wish-list thread, I would be open to seeing the older rule-sets offered as advanced rules options, as well.  Going back to the old BattleDroids and their infantry and tanks can be a style of optional play if a group agrees.  Going back to ye olde BMR or BattleTech Master Rules, and showing some application of misinterpretations for making Mechs stronger to some degree.

I've seen all to many advanced rules that weaken the magic weaponry of the BTs 27th through 31st centuries.  I want rules, even if optional, but official, that make the Mech truly a powerhouse, and give it a reason to exist in the light of real-world considerations why they wouldn't exist as military weapons.  I want to see a reason behind the houses adopting the tech instead of trying to find ways to counter or defeat it.   Some of those older rule sets do that.

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Charistoph

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I think I dismissed the values because you have to have something that moves 18-24 hexes to get that +5.  As I said, that's a large jump.  Not very many canon designs that can get there, and most of them are oddballs that my group doesn't use.  And, you can only get the 6 TMM when you move 25+ hexes in a movement phase.  With next to no ground units I can think of that can reach that speed, including VToLs, it's almost not worth having.  Maybe the new AirMech modes for LAMS can get up there, but those rules are so laughable I don't want to use those units. 

Don't forget that VTOLs and WiGEs can get a +6 TMM at 18 by virtue of being airborne.  At 25+ they'd have a +7.  A ground unit might be able to make it if they can Jump 18+ as well, but that takes a lot of mass to do.

But as for getting ridiculous on the ground, the Fireball ALM-XF can do that, but it's a racing rig, and pretty much either requires its MASC or Supercharger to reach it.  But it is SO much fun doing that.  I've literally raced across a map, over a couple hills to boot, with that thing.  I've ran around in a circle and maintained a +6 TMM while doing it.  It's a lot of fun to see people's faces when they see me place the die.
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Cannonshop

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Okay.  Back on topic, I find it interesting that a lot of the meta details people want can be justified as a form of Tech.  Equipment that performs a certain way, imparting certain benefits.  If you can conceive it, you can try it in the form of equipment or construction.

But, if this is a wish-list thread, I would be open to seeing the older rule-sets offered as advanced rules options, as well.  Going back to the old BattleDroids and their infantry and tanks can be a style of optional play if a group agrees.  Going back to ye olde BMR or BattleTech Master Rules, and showing some application of misinterpretations for making Mechs stronger to some degree.

I've seen all to many advanced rules that weaken the magic weaponry of the BTs 27th through 31st centuries.  I want rules, even if optional, but official, that make the Mech truly a powerhouse, and give it a reason to exist in the light of real-world considerations why they wouldn't exist as military weapons.  I want to see a reason behind the houses adopting the tech instead of trying to find ways to counter or defeat it.   Some of those older rule sets do that.

NOtably, I was running mainly conventional units back when it wasn't cool (BMR(r) and earlier), it was still possible to win with a force of tanks, vtols and infantry against 'mechs, but it was a lot harder, and a lot of 'mech habits' didn't carry over well, if at all.  (Assault Tanks weren't implacable bunkers, they were extremely vulnerable cost-sinks, you NEEDED that TMM on VTOLs or they were dead, because anything that could reach them could kill them in a single shot if it hit the rotors, artillery splash wasn't dinner-plates-of-death diagrams, even for the very large stuff...)

TW made Assault tanks (that is, 3/5 or slower) a viable option for a fixed defense scenario, where before the practice of 'parking' was outright suicide if the other player was even half aware of their built in vulnerabilities (Infernoes an fire-making stuff, crit-seeking, and so on.) Holding still with something like an Alacorn was an open invite for the other guy's SRM-equipped fast-movers to inferno it into nonexistence and staying stationary after was directly petitioning for it to die the next turn.

then again, Elementals had the same problem (which is why the salamander suit's fireproofing was worthy to include in the TRO entry-it didn't DIE when you hit the hex with an inferno strike!)

Vehicle play (successful) was VERY DIFFERENT from Total Warfare in the bMR era- you didn't let your tanks sit anywhere for long, because it literally was 'keep moving or die', and successful tactics (for me) revolved around 'pressure' and movement.  (at one point prior to TW's writing I manifestoed out this idea that the slowest tank you can field effectively is about a 4/6.  That's fast enough that you don't need to flank to have a positve TMM,which means not taking the flanking penalty with every shot.)

such rules would NOT play well with most audiences in the present day, likewise, TW's adoption of Munchtek's Rotor Damage Nerf is the only reason people today think a Yellowjacket or other slow VTOL even CAN be viable as more than a way to redistribute expensive lostech to the other side as salvage while you lose gloriously (and expensively).

How so?? imagine your local combined-arms lord coping with the idea that a PPC can shear the rotors right off, that a Medium Laser can knock his birds down...because mister rotor takes FULL DAMAGE from being hit.

With anything that CAN hit.

think about how that changes what your players think is 'good'.

all of a sudden, heavier does NOT automatically equal 'better', instead, if you want to use it successfully, you have to change how you're using it and shelve the 'mechwarrior standard of "well, it's bigger so it's got to be better" in favor of a different paradigm.

(playing "Goat Path" scenario with H-7s in BMR(r) is a fairly different experience when you're not using H-7s and you don't have the munchtek rotor damage nerf going for you.  Those AC/2's suddenly make a LOT more sense than something bigger, that doesn't reach nearly as far, or something slower, with a lot more armor, because the armor becomes quite secondary in terms of survival when compared with things like cruising speed...).

my own contribution to this over-all thread is a lot simpler.

"In situations where you have dissimilar numbers on the initiative, the movement for the losing side is front-loaded instead of rear-loaded, with the movement of the larger force being multiples until parity is reached..."

in a 5 on 4, that means : 2(1), 1(1), 1(1), 1(1).

in a 5 on 8, that means : 2(1)2(1), 2(1), 1(1), 1(1)

The purpose here is twofold:

1. because larger forces involving human beings are harder to administrate and control.
2. The infamous "Initiative sinking" practice that creates a perception of unfairness.  The attempt at instituting "Force size multiplier" resulted in ridiculous amounts of paperwork for what should be friendly, rules-lite gaming in the BV system, and failed to deliver on anything that wasn't simply choosing the most optimized custom desigins with ultra-elite pilots fighting singly.

Thus, we front load initiative because it gives a fairer fight when the forces are asymmetrically sized, without having to dig into complicated extra calculations and brutal penalties to get a fair match (if you were around for the FSM era, you may remember that ****** who walked into a 5 or 10 thousand BV match with a single custom 'mech and, to keep it BV compliant, forced everyone else to either dump the forces they'd spent weeks painting, or accept P/G scores somewhere in the 7/8 range.)

Artillery Scatter

On a Miss: the margin of failure decides distance, roll 1D6 for direction.

Why: Because gunnery should matter.  Better gun crews shoot tighter groups than poorer gun crews.  This being because maintenance and upkeep are part of the gunnery experience, as is being able to do trigonometry and ballistic calculations.  This also streamlines and simplifies the artillery scatter rules, so that you spend less time rolling extra dice-you missed, you can see HOW BADLY YOU MISSED, the only question being where the shot landed.  Most players can do simple addition or subtraction mentally (*it's part of the core game, really), so it takes less time and that means more time doing things you want to do instead.

Ultra Autocannons and Jamming

Roll Gunnery plus three to unjam.

not piloting, you're not bouncing it around, your gunnery crew (on a tank) or your 'mech's gunnery systems are doing what gunnery systems OUGHT TO BE DOING.

It's still complicated, but it makes certain designs less of a testimony to the fictional corruption of fictional corporations if the damn gun is at LEAST as reliable as a 1965 era M-16.  YOu're already paying in weight and the inability to use specialty ammo (and C-bills if you're a campaign player) for the privilege of emptying your ammo boxes at twice the rate.

This and an adjustment to the rolls for unjamming a RAC to straight Gunnery to keep the balance between the two.  The idea anyone would field a weapon that requires depo-level repair on a random basis regardless of what your soldiers are using it for is ludicrous.  Armies don't buy systems that make a hash of their OWN operational planning, if they did, the British would've been fielding automatic rifles in 1914, regardless of their reliability issues, and the US would've been fielding improved versions of the Hall Rifle as standard in 1860, instead of going back to rifled muskets after the Mexican war. (AND The Germans would've been putting Mondragon rifles in the trenches instead of on the balloons in 1914.)


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garhkal

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Do you mean Attacker Modifier, or Target Modifier?

I thought that was only for gravity mods.

Target move mods..  IIRC one of the optional rules, had it going
speed 10-14 +5
Speed 15-19??  +6
and on up..
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Charistoph

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Target move mods..  IIRC one of the optional rules, had it going
speed 10-14 +5
Speed 15-19??  +6
and on up..

Hunh.  Out of curiosity, I checked the Battletech 4th Ed, and both Compendiums, and at 10+ it was 4+.  It was even up to the latest Master Rules book in that.  I couldn't find it in the MaxTech or Tactical Handbook.  So, I doubt 5+ was at 10 for the expanded list that came later.
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Daemion

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Target move mods..  IIRC one of the optional rules, had it going
speed 10-14 +5
Speed 15-19??  +6
and on up..

I posted what I found in Max Tech. Let me check Tac Handbook real quick. [checks]  Nothing there about expanded target movement mods. And, the old Compendium rules ported from the board game rule books show nothing, either.
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Daemion

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TW made Assault tanks (that is, 3/5 or slower) a viable option for a fixed defense scenario, where before the practice of 'parking' was outright suicide if the other player was even half aware of their built in vulnerabilities (Infernoes an fire-making stuff, crit-seeking, and so on.) Holding still with something like an Alacorn was an open invite for the other guy's SRM-equipped fast-movers to inferno it into nonexistence and staying stationary after was directly petitioning for it to die the next turn.

then again, Elementals had the same problem (which is why the salamander suit's fireproofing was worthy to include in the TRO entry-it didn't DIE when you hit the hex with an inferno strike!)

Vehicle play (successful) was VERY DIFFERENT from Total Warfare in the bMR era- you didn't let your tanks sit anywhere for long, because it literally was 'keep moving or die', and successful tactics (for me) revolved around 'pressure' and movement.  (at one point prior to TW's writing I manifestoed out this idea that the slowest tank you can field effectively is about a 4/6.  That's fast enough that you don't need to flank to have a positve TMM,which means not taking the flanking penalty with every shot.)

I can see now why they gave tanks the option for stabilizers to negate the AMM modifier in MaxTech.  It would allow even slow tanks to move at flank and be more mobile.  It was an initial attempt to make even slow moving 'dreadnaughts' a chance at being more viable by being more mobile instead of turtle teching.  (And, I'm seeing a potential compromise between the two systems of TW and BMR that I might be comfortable with.)

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Daemion

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all of a sudden, heavier does NOT automatically equal 'better', instead, if you want to use it successfully, you have to change how you're using it and shelve the 'mechwarrior standard of "well, it's bigger so it's got to be better" in favor of a different paradigm.

Well, I had never really paid much attention to the Hunter Missile Tank for a long time.  Now, while I wish there was a way to light gauss a Vedette or give it an AC/10, the Hunter, on the other hand, is a 5/8 floating LRM-20.  After having played with SRM and LRM carriers, the Hunter looks far more promising.  And, the hunter has it's origin in BattleDroids, and was carried into the first CityTech.  For a throw-away tank, it's pretty darn good, and pairs welll with the Vedette.

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Daemion

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my own contribution to this over-all thread is a lot simpler.

"In situations where you have dissimilar numbers on the initiative, the movement for the losing side is front-loaded instead of rear-loaded, with the movement of the larger force being multiples until parity is reached..."

in a 5 on 4, that means : 2(1), 1(1), 1(1), 1(1).

in a 5 on 8, that means : 2(1)2(1), 2(1), 1(1), 1(1)

I thought they did that already in the core initiative breakdown.  And, my group does what you describe by default anymore even in games with a hero side against a throw-away OpFor.
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Daemion

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Ultra Autocannons and Jamming

Roll Gunnery plus three to unjam.

not piloting, you're not bouncing it around, your gunnery crew (on a tank) or your 'mech's gunnery systems are doing what gunnery systems OUGHT TO BE DOING.

It's still complicated, but it makes certain designs less of a testimony to the fictional corruption of fictional corporations if the damn gun is at LEAST as reliable as a 1965 era M-16.  YOu're already paying in weight and the inability to use specialty ammo (and C-bills if you're a campaign player) for the privilege of emptying your ammo boxes at twice the rate.

This and an adjustment to the rolls for unjamming a RAC to straight Gunnery to keep the balance between the two.  The idea anyone would field a weapon that requires depo-level repair on a random basis regardless of what your soldiers are using it for is ludicrous.  Armies don't buy systems that make a hash of their OWN operational planning, if they did, the British would've been fielding automatic rifles in 1914, regardless of their reliability issues, and the US would've been fielding improved versions of the Hall Rifle as standard in 1860, instead of going back to rifled muskets after the Mexican war. (AND The Germans would've been putting Mondragon rifles in the trenches instead of on the balloons in 1914.)

I like this.  Save the arming circuitry burnout for primitive/prototype versions.  Maybe they're a touch lighter.
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Cannonshop

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I can see now why they gave tanks the option for stabilizers to negate the AMM modifier in MaxTech.  It would allow even slow tanks to move at flank and be more mobile.  It was an initial attempt to make even slow moving 'dreadnaughts' a chance at being more viable by being more mobile instead of turtle teching.  (And, I'm seeing a potential compromise between the two systems of TW and BMR that I might be comfortable with.)

Boilerplate about home-games.  I admit only to preferring Pre-TW for the same reason they fixed it IN TW-that being, the paradigm shift that was present in BMR play, where bigger wasn't automatically better and in some situations was worse instead...when applied to ground vehicles.

Why? it meant having to learn a completely different style of play and method of thinking about the battlefield.  We were concluding regimental actions in a single six hour playing session without needing to abstract it all.

HOW you ask? Simply put, the battle got decisive VERY QUICKLY, there were certain methods that actually don't work instead of merely "Doesn't work if your dice are bad".

Admittedly, that era was extra hard on some designs, including theorycrafter favorites like the Yellowjacket, or the weight-fetishist's favorite designs in the tracked column, and we often DID end up needing more map area because when I'd run out a reinforced company of 4/6 to 6/9 tanks, two mapsheets suddenly wasn't enough.  (same problem happens when you get a good Light 'mech player with a full company or binary-one mapsheet ends up being WAY too small).

But I 'get' why the changes were adopted from Munchtek-There are a hell of a lot of 3/5 tanks out there and they needed to be viable combatant units, instead of expensive range targets, and there's an ongoing sentiment that anything that can be generated, ought to be viable (thus, why they rescued slow VTOLs from a deserved dustbin status-thankfully, not entirely, but those rules were spindled just to make the Jellowjacket somewhat viable at all.)

but I'm grousing from the perspective of someone who'd figured out how to use vees with all the hampering, effectively, against 'mech primary players without needing the Maxtech Crutch to do it.

oddly enough, the tactics I used back then?

Mostly still work, it's just that we've got to abstract the hell out of it with Alpha Strike to get the same timeframe I was getting in BMR(r) for a given size of forces, and it takes a LOT longer for a fight to get decisive, and you can manage company scale on only two mapsheets now, instead of needing two by three.

The tradeoff, is that everything is regularized now-there aren't any tactics that work with a 'mech, that don't also work with a Tank (or vise-versa), where there WERE tactics you can do with a 'mech, that were suicidally stupid to do with tanks in the old system...and now, assault tanks moving 3/5 have a 'killer application' of turtling, whereas before, turtling like you're an Atlas was inviting someone like me to use the cheapest unit on the board to kill you.  (Worst example I can think of involved custom builds-I built what amounted to jeeps with SRM-2's and wiped out a friend's Alacorn Company in two turns at equal numbers.  Twelve jeeps killed twelve tanks, and did it quickly. The BV difference was gross enough that if it had been a serious match, his defeat would've been complete humiliation.  I think maybe a BV to BV comparison would've stuck him with two, maybe three tanks total)

That scenario wouldn't have happened under Total Warfare, because infernoes and crit hits don't work the same way, and a five minute skirmish back then, would have taken an hour, maybe two today.

Second worst drubbing applied, was with a Com-2D commando against a lance of assault tanks, which also won't work today.

but that's in the past, TW doesn't LET that happen now.  everything is regularized now, and that's probably better for the game as a whole, and maybe is a reminder of the importance of game balance in a game where you CAN make custom units.
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But as for getting ridiculous on the ground, the Fireball ALM-XF can do that, but it's a racing rig, and pretty much either requires its MASC or Supercharger to reach it.  But it is SO much fun doing that.  I've literally raced across a map, over a couple hills to boot, with that thing.  I've ran around in a circle and maintained a +6 TMM while doing it.  It's a lot of fun to see people's faces when they see me place the die.
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The tradeoff, is that everything is regularized now-there aren't any tactics that work with a 'mech, that don't also work with a Tank (or vise-versa), where there WERE tactics you can do with a 'mech, that were suicidally stupid to do with tanks in the old system...and now, assault tanks moving 3/5 have a 'killer application' of turtling, whereas before, turtling like you're an Atlas was inviting someone like me to use the cheapest unit on the board to kill you.  ...

That scenario wouldn't have happened under Total Warfare, because infernoes and crit hits don't work the same way, and a five minute skirmish back then, would have taken an hour, maybe two today.

...

but that's in the past, TW doesn't LET that happen now.  everything is regularized now, and that's probably better for the game as a whole, and maybe is a reminder of the importance of game balance in a game where you CAN make custom units.

And I think that's where my tastes, at least, diverge from the norm. 

They're structuring BattleTech to be a simple stand-off game.  So, everything and everything should be free to use and stand some chance of success when the battle isn't tied to a story or a universe.  With such a wide array of gaming pieces, you could potentially keep coming back to try new combinations. 

I didn't learn BattleTech as a competitive game.  I learned it as the combat system for resolving a story.  2nd Ed even promoted that with Pilot growth via experience tied to surviving games and getting kills.  BMR kept to that, too.  Add to that a living, breathing universe with an extensive history, starting with some basic factions with their own leaders and ideals in a side-bar to choose from. 

I don't look at BattleTech as a simple game with a universe and story tacked on for flavor.  I look at BattleTech the game as an extension of the universe and ongoing story, depicting combat in a future that is far removed from the world I live in.  And, as such, I still don't mind the idea of a moment in time where the Mech really was so overpowering that it was adopted, and not simply countered.

I view the other angle as leading to the oddly schizophrenic game rules.  So, maybe, what I want out of BattleTech is a distinction - game for the story, and game for the game.  Total Warfare is the game for the game rules.  Now, give me, the story player that runs campaigns in the World of BattleTech, who tracks experience for improving basic pilot and crew skills and adopts SPAs for character flavor, the game that follows a universe logic, and is consistent and makes the story work.

And, that would mean infantry, if even for a brief point in history, that are rendered Mission Kills, and tanks that can't be used for nothing more than parade floats or tech gifts of salvage for the enemy if they're brought into battle.

Because, without that distinction, people still fall back on looking at the game, as-is, being an honest representation of how things function in the BTU, and laugh, whether in derision or in confusion at the inconsistency. 

It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

I helped make a game! ^_^  - Forge Of War: Tactics

Daryk

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I've held consistency to be the most important thing for a long time now.

Greatclub

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I never got maxtech - did the vehicle and infantry tough buffs come with a BV price increase, and if not did that unbalance force building in favor of treadheads?

Me, I'm in it for the mechs, I'm good with going back to squishy vees. If someone is good enough to get said squishies to work, I was probably going to lose anyway.
« Last Edit: 29 March 2023, 21:12:57 by Greatclub »

Daemion

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I never got maxtech - did the vehicle and infantry tough buffs come with a BV price increase, and if not did that unbalance force building in favor of treadheads?

Me, I'm in it for the mechs, I'm good with going back to squishy vees. If someone is good enough to get said squishies to work, I was probably going to lose anyway.

I'm not sure about BV for MaxTech, as It got to a point that I don't care about BV too much anymore. But, one thing they did suggest is that all the additional buffs be taken with all of the limitations to balance things out a bit.  So, You want the stabilizer buff, you need to work with turn modes, where you can turn one hex face after moving so many hexes.

(One of the reasons I've looked at transplanting the aero MP/Thrust rules to vehicles on the ground.  It fits with how a lot of ground vehicles work with transmissions.)

[Checks MaxTech]
They do.  You have a whole section on calculations changes for more than just the new tech.  And, that's followed by a master list of practically every unit available at the time of publishing.

It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

I helped make a game! ^_^  - Forge Of War: Tactics

Cannonshop

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And I think that's where my tastes, at least, diverge from the norm. 

They're structuring BattleTech to be a simple stand-off game.  So, everything and everything should be free to use and stand some chance of success when the battle isn't tied to a story or a universe.  With such a wide array of gaming pieces, you could potentially keep coming back to try new combinations. 

I didn't learn BattleTech as a competitive game.  I learned it as the combat system for resolving a story.  2nd Ed even promoted that with Pilot growth via experience tied to surviving games and getting kills.  BMR kept to that, too.  Add to that a living, breathing universe with an extensive history, starting with some basic factions with their own leaders and ideals in a side-bar to choose from. 

I don't look at BattleTech as a simple game with a universe and story tacked on for flavor.  I look at BattleTech the game as an extension of the universe and ongoing story, depicting combat in a future that is far removed from the world I live in.  And, as such, I still don't mind the idea of a moment in time where the Mech really was so overpowering that it was adopted, and not simply countered.

I view the other angle as leading to the oddly schizophrenic game rules.  So, maybe, what I want out of BattleTech is a distinction - game for the story, and game for the game.  Total Warfare is the game for the game rules.  Now, give me, the story player that runs campaigns in the World of BattleTech, who tracks experience for improving basic pilot and crew skills and adopts SPAs for character flavor, the game that follows a universe logic, and is consistent and makes the story work.

And, that would mean infantry, if even for a brief point in history, that are rendered Mission Kills, and tanks that can't be used for nothing more than parade floats or tech gifts of salvage for the enemy if they're brought into battle.

Because, without that distinction, people still fall back on looking at the game, as-is, being an honest representation of how things function in the BTU, and laugh, whether in derision or in confusion at the inconsistency.

WE all have different takes.  different takes, different "House rules"...

Back in the BMR era, I disdained Munchtek (maxtech) because of observation-the text might suggest taking the drawbacks, but that's not what PLAYERS did.

and it was symptomatic of what I considered "Palladium Disease" or "RIFTS sourcebook syndrome"-where someone would show up and insist on using the latest-and-greatest optional rules without the drawbacks, adn he was the only guy at the table with the book.

So, when Fanpro was gathering efforts and my buddy went in for the Commando program, I helped out, and one of the things I did, helping out, was get an agreement that "If everyone doesn't have a publication of their own, it's the basic book only."

BAsically locking out Maxtech, and Unbound, and Mechforce UK materials.

why? because at that time, those books were out of print, so people couldn't go to the shelf at the FLGS and buy one.

This worked really well for developing a playerbase in our area, since Fanpro (and later, Catalyst) were still putting out books and materials, and they were current, and not obscure, making it hard for gamertwinks to twink off with rarities and special roolz.

Being as I wound up playing the baddies in scenarios for players who were new, fascinated by the Clans, or grooving on the latest TRO?  I got 'good' with conventional forces, tanks, infantry, VTOL and artillery...under the much more restrictive rules in BMR(r).

you know, the ones that let you have the whole hit-tables for a tank on the same 81/2x11 Printer paper.

Which included the kind of rules we're digressing about, because some systems didn't work very well, and some didn't work at all, and there were some that simply had no useful role because of how combat worked.

and you could resolve a battalion or even regimental conflict in under four hours using Vehicles to bulk up forces on one side (or both).

But that was also in a setting and group that was heavily into Roleplaying, to the point that people snagged copies of the RPG and shoehorned their characters into the battletech tabletop fighting at 'mech scale.

it worked out for a remarkable period of time before things fell apart as people got lives and jobs and such or moved away, or stores failed.
"If you have to ask permission, then it's no longer a Right, it has been turned into a Privilege-something that can be and will be taken from you when convenient."

Daryk

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I'm bummed I missed that era.  I was already in the Navy by that point, and on the other coast...  :-\

Someday I'll be forced into retirement, and will have time for that level of detail again...  :)

Greatclub

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-the text might suggest taking the drawbacks, but that's not what PLAYERS did.

Off topic, but...

This half the problem I have with quirks. People grab the combat based ones, offset them with campaign drawbacks, and try to bring it to a one-off.

The other problem is you have to remember them. I'm good with them in campOps or StratOps. I absolutely deny they should be in BMM, the "basic" book.

Daemion

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And, that's why I strongly believe they really need to make a distinction between official game/tournament rules, and rules dedicated for campaign/story play. 

It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

I helped make a game! ^_^  - Forge Of War: Tactics

Failure16

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I've seen a conga line of death that ended up with someone going over a cliff for an "accidental" death from above...  :D

Niiice.

I once saw a Phoenix Hawk convert a Conga-Line-of-Death into its literal representation: seven 'Mechs at once from a single large laser pulse thanks to Stackpoling engines. Regular to Veteran in ten seconds or less.

In other words, don't line up behind each other without appropriate intervals, boyos.
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth,                                And through villages of ether
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.                   Oh, my crucifixion comes
When I needed something good.                                         One day we'll reveal the truth,                    Will you sing my hallelujah?
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.      That one will die before he gets there.       Will you tell me when it's done?
But I'd think of something better if I could
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Hellraiser

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Also would hurt lights and meduims because it makes them easier to hit.  Which is also the reason I didn't like when they they changed from a +3 to hit for partial cover and lowered it to a +1.   That rule change gave the guys with big guns incentive to camp.  Were as for decades you had to ask if I wanted to risk a high chance of a head cap if I get hit.   The +3 with a fast moving unit made it really hard to hit a light or meduim.  In effect the rule change removed armor from the "speed is live" units.     On top of the rule change creates wasted dice rolls when leg hits get made.  I hate wasting time.

I liked the rule change for the "flavor" of it, and yet, I can't disagree with anything you've said here.
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"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo