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Author Topic: Factory Units  (Read 807 times)

willis

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Factory Units
« on: 30 May 2021, 20:22:02 »
I was reading the entries found in the space stations in 3057 and I noticed that they stated Factory Unit but gave zero details.

So I went to the books and found zero yet again.

Then I decided to look in the programs I have on my computer, you guessed it, zero again.

Then I decided to create some basic framework for the factory units, and I would like to ask for your input on what additional rules needed to have these in play within the rules, Tactical Ops, Strategic Ops, and Interstellar Ops.

So here it goes, and the ideas I used sprang from the rules for repair facilities and a wee bit of the Robotech Factory Satellites:

Automated Factory Units
Mass: 1,000 tons
Production Capacity:
--Low Level Production: 25 tons/hour
--Standard Level Production: 75 tons/hour
--High Level Production: 150 tons/hour
NOTES: All Automated Factory Units have a five day production cycle, after that cycle is complete, the facility is placed into maintenance mode for forty-eight hours to allow for technical staff do prventative maintenance and repairs if required. The base minimum amount of technical staff is 20 technician/engineers + 5 additional per 250 tons. Additional Automated Factory Units can be combined to increase the amount of finished product in a 5 day production cycle.


Examples:

1 x Automated Factory Unit / 1,000 tons
Production Capacity: (per 5 day production cycle)
--Low Level Production: 25 tons/hour (3,000 tons)
--Standard Level Production: 75 tons/hour (9,000 tons)
--High Level Production: 150 tons/hour (18,000 tons)
Technician/Engineer: 20 person team

5 x Automated Factory Units / 5,000 tons
Production Capacity: (per 5 day production cycle)
--Low Level Production: 125 tons/hour (15,000 tons)
--Standard Level Production: 375 tons/hour (45,000 tons)
--High Level Production: 750 tons/hour (90,000 tons)
Technician/Engineer: 100 person team

*********************************************************************************************************

Mobile Factory Module
Mass: 200 tons
Personnel: 15
Production Capacity:
--Low Level Production: 5 tons/hour
--Standard Level Production: 15 tons/hour
--High Level Production: 30 tons/hour
NOTES: Mobile Factory Modules have a limited production cycle, limited to 8 hours followed by a 16 hour maintenance cycle. They are primarlly designed to support ship board repairs and embarked supporting craft. The Mobile Factory Modules cannot be combined like the much larger Automated Factory Units, as they are designed to be stand alone modules.

willis

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #1 on: 30 May 2021, 20:26:17 »
Now if you are wondering why I chose the production rates that I have is based on cannon history of the Terran Hegemony being able to produce so much, and in greater volume that any of the houses.

Some of the additional rules I think are needed are the rates of mechanical failure or defective product based on the amount produced
Unexpected technical issues that cause damage / the level of that damage

Any ideas you have, by all means add them here.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #2 on: 30 May 2021, 22:27:23 »
There is something called the Industrial Tycoons guide on the Battletech forums somewhere. Will look for it later, very interesting proposal however although I'd say it is a little high unless it is something really basic like food processing

David CGB

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #3 on: 31 May 2021, 04:15:02 »
Great idea, love it
Federated Suns fan forever, Ghost Bear Fan since 1992, and as a Ghost Bear David Bekker star captain (in an Alt TL Loremaster)

willis

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #4 on: 31 May 2021, 07:00:21 »
There is something called the Industrial Tycoons guide on the Battletech forums somewhere. Will look for it later, very interesting proposal however although I'd say it is a little high unless it is something really basic like food processing

I do have that, great for the majority of production, but these will mostly be vessel/station based units, military use, or for colonies in the initial setup

willis

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #5 on: 31 May 2021, 07:01:56 »
If anyone has any ideas for more realistic production levels post them

willis

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #6 on: 31 May 2021, 08:22:24 »
Revised Production Examples:

1 x Automated Factory Unit / 1,000 tons
Production Capacity: (per 5 day production cycle)
--Low Level Production: 25 tons every 8 hours (325 tons)
--Standard Level Production: 75 tons every 8 hours (1,125 tons)
--High Level Production: 150 tons every 8 hours (2,250 tons)
Technican/Engineer: 20 person team

5 x Automated Factory Units / 5,000 tons
Production Capacity: (per 5 day production cycle)
--Low Level Production: 125 tons every 8 hours (1,875 tons)
--Standard Level Production: 375 tons every 8 hours (5,625 tons)
--High Level Production: 750 tons every 8 hours (11,250 tons)
Technican/Engineer: 100 person team


Would these be more realistic production rates?

Syzyx

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #7 on: 31 May 2021, 09:13:41 »
(cue the slaughter of catgirls)

So, using automotive manufacturing rates over the course of a year (the info that I could most easily find was from 2012 but that will suffice for this inquiry).

A single Ford production plant produced 323,415 F-150 trucks over the course of that year. Conveniently the F-150 is between 4,012 and 5,014 lbs depending on options which averages out pretty close to two metric tons.

So fudging our numbers for convenience (and wiping catgirl off of our hands) that brings us to 646,830 tons per year or 1,772.14 tons per day. Again fudging things so that is the number of tons produced in 16 hours so there's an 8 hour maintenance cycle each day that's not too bad a base.

The Ford plant employed 3,200 people. Clearly not all of them were factory floor employees, and taking into account the miracles of more advanced automation, we're going to slash that number by half for needed technicians on a fully automated line. So, 1,600 people produced 1,772.14 tons per day.

Dividing that by the proposed 20 person crew for your modules (which seems as reasonable as anything) gives us 80 manufacturing units.

1,772.14 divided by 80 gives us a rate of 22.15 tons manufactured per day per manufacturing unit at a rate of 2/3rds uptime.

Now this calculation is based on a highly complex product with a ton of moving parts and high required precision. That being said, again acknowledging the miracle of full automation and 500 years of advancing processes, producing 22-22.5 tons (depending on how you feel like rounding) of BattleMech per day is pretty dang amazing.

New Avalon's Valkyrie plant produced 130 'mechs per year in the depths of the Third Succession war. I believe it is quite reasonable to presume that it could have made quite a bit more if it had been adequately maintained and supplied. Those things taken into account, if we presume that it could have doubled its production if kept in prime condition with all the components it could eat, 260 'mechs at 30 tons each in a year comes down to 21.37 tons per day. Pretty close to our above numbers.

That all being presented (and a second order of catgirl residue cleaning agent placed) it is also highly relevant what is being manufactured. The above example is trying to get us to the pinnacle of universe technology, the BattleMech. If your factory is making simple children's stacking blocks (not even the interlocking LEGO kind) then I'm quite comfortable saying you could multiply your daily production by 100 or maybe even 1,000 for such incredibly simple products.

As an example of potential scale of production:

Absolutely basic product (stacking blocks): 2,500 tons/day
Simple product (cheez spread): 1,250 tons/day
Modest product (clothing): 625 tons/day
Somewhat complex product (civilian auto): 250 tons/day
Complex product (ICE military vehicle): 125 tons/day
Highly complex product (BattleMech): 25 tons/day


I apologize for the rough math, trying to tie anything in BattleTech to reality, and for all the catgirl gore.
But as a matter of fact I was quite busy getting potty-trained at the time and had no time for interstellar politics.- ykonoclast

willis

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #8 on: 31 May 2021, 09:27:41 »
16 hours production / 8 hours maintenance cycle is a great example
Minus all the catgirl gore unless they are being produced into something else.... >:D

Daryk

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #9 on: 31 May 2021, 12:55:56 »
I think Fermi would approve of your math, Syzyx!  8)

For those who don't know, Google "Fermi problem"...  ^-^

Syzyx

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #10 on: 31 May 2021, 13:34:15 »
Thank you very much. :)

Though I suppose in BattleTech the Drake Equation isn't really a thing...
But as a matter of fact I was quite busy getting potty-trained at the time and had no time for interstellar politics.- ykonoclast

Daryk

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #11 on: 31 May 2021, 13:36:19 »
Even in BT, Drake wasn't wrong...  ^-^

willis

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #12 on: 31 May 2021, 18:47:09 »
Automated Factory Unit

Mass: 1,000 tons

Battle Value: ???

Production Capacity:
--Low Level Production: 25 tons per production cycle (50 tons/day)
--Standard Level Production: 50 tons per production cycle (100 tons/day)
--High Level Production: 100 tons per production cycle (200 tons/day)

NOTES:
--The standard Automated Factory Units still available to the nations of the Inner Sphere have two 8 hour production cycles followed by 8 hour maintenance window allowing technical engineers to do preventative maintenance and systems checks and do any required parts replacements prior to the next production cycles.
--The base amount of engineers is calculated at 20 technician/engineers + 5 additional per 250 tons.
--The Automated Factory Units are designed to be combined together to allow for larger and more capable factories for increased levels of production.
--Defective Product Failure: In normal operating conditions, the amount of defective product produced per 8 hour production cycle is 0.5 percent. The amount of defective product increases by 0.5% for each maintenance cycle missed. When the product failure rate reaches 10%, the facility will go into automatic shut down for a 24 hour maintenance cycle before production can resume.
--Facility Failure: If any major mechanical issues happen during active production with missed maintenance cycles, for each mainteance cycle missed roll a percential dice, on a roll of between 00 and 75, a minor failure occurs, the required time for any repairs is equivalent to one day per each missed maintenance cycle before production can resume. On a roll of 76 and above, a major failure occures, and repairs will take three days per each missed maintenance cycle before production can resume.

Construction Rules:
--Most Automated Factory Units are installed on platforms that are large enough, no additional equipment is required, such as power generation or control systems. However, if the unit is deployed planet-side it will require additional equipment, a structure to house it, power generation, control systems, and housing for the technical and supporting staff.
--Control Systems Weight: Tonnage x 0.0075
--Control Systems Base Crew Minimum: 3 + 1 per 100 tons (round up)
--Power Generator Weight x 0.065 (Fusion), see the Power Generators for additional generator types
--Structure: see the Advanced Buildings in Tactical Operation for available structure types
--Housing: see rules in Advanced Buildings for the housing  needs of the assigned personnel (Technical, support, security)

Dimensions: each 1,000 ton factory unit covers 9 ground hezes with an elevation of 4. Each additional factory unit increases the length and width by two ground hexesw with an additional elevation of 1.

Maingunnery

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #13 on: 31 May 2021, 19:02:56 »

What about fully automated units (no technician/engineers)?
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Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #14 on: 31 May 2021, 19:45:35 »
I'd also add modifiers to the output tonnage based on complexity.
If they're just making spare parts or full on battlemechs, the overall output should be affected either way.

willis

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #15 on: 31 May 2021, 20:11:26 »
What about fully automated units (no technician/engineers)?

The technicians are for the maintenance checks / other than that they are automated

idea weenie

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #16 on: 31 May 2021, 22:00:08 »
There is something called the Industrial Tycoons guide on the Battletech forums somewhere. Will look for it later, very interesting proposal however although I'd say it is a little high unless it is something really basic like food processing

Here is the link to the Industrial Tycoon rule topic:
https://bg.battletech.com/forums/fan-designs-rules/the-industrial-tycoons-handbook-(industrial-rules)/

Basic rules:
A single 'block' takes up 1 BT hex, has a certain mass, produces 40 million C-Bills of material per shift in a single year, and has a base cost of 250 million C-Bills.  Higher-complexity items, higher levels of automation, and more remote locations can affect the cost and mass, while using higher tech to produce lower-tech items will increase the production rate (i.e. a Clan-tech factory will produce 40M C-B worth of Clan-tech gear per shift per year, while able to produce 70M C-B worth of 21st century products).  Multiple blocks are used when you want to produce more than 40M C-Bills per year (i.e. if you want to produce 20M C-Bills per year at a factory, it will need 5 blocks, and the factory will take up 5 BT hexes).

You then have to have administration hexes proportional to the number of factory hexes, calculate paychecks of the personnel involved (a non-automated line has lots of technicians, while a fully-automated line will need lots of expensive engineers), factor in the height of the factory (i.e. a Mech factory has to be more than 1 level), adjust in case you have a ground factory supporting a Jumpship yard in orbit), and potentially even include security paychecks to make sure the facility doesn't get raided. 

The full web site for this discussion is here, but has been quiet for a while in this section:
http://www.starshiptracker.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=153

Daryk

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #17 on: 31 May 2021, 22:13:11 »
Only a 6 and some-year payback?  Heck, with that, everyone would be doing it...  ::)

Syzyx

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #18 on: 01 June 2021, 09:01:24 »
Actually, 6 years before making a profit on a factory is roughly accurate, though it depends on the specific industry. Things like paper mills, presuming the ability to actually sell the product, can start seeing profits after as little as 4 years. In many parts of the world automotive factories are built as 10-year 'disposable' facilities and expect to see all costs amortized after 6.5-7 years and enough profits made that there's still notable gain after accounting for the costs of building the next 10-year facility.
But as a matter of fact I was quite busy getting potty-trained at the time and had no time for interstellar politics.- ykonoclast

Daryk

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #19 on: 01 June 2021, 16:11:33 »
I don't think you'll find anything that short in the armored vehicle business...

Syzyx

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #20 on: 01 June 2021, 16:36:28 »
In that I do quite agree. Military production, especially in the BattleTech universe, does tend to be fortified and disposable fortifications aren't usually a thing.
But as a matter of fact I was quite busy getting potty-trained at the time and had no time for interstellar politics.- ykonoclast

idea weenie

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #21 on: 02 June 2021, 00:34:06 »
Automated Factory Unit
Mass: 1,000 tons
Battle Value: ???

Production Capacity:
--Low Level Production: 25 tons per production cycle (50 tons/day)
--Standard Level Production: 50 tons per production cycle (100 tons/day)
--High Level Production: 100 tons per production cycle (200 tons/day)

NOTES:
--The standard Automated Factory Units still available to the nations of the Inner Sphere have two 8 hour production cycles followed by 8 hour maintenance window allowing technical engineers to do preventative maintenance and systems checks and do any required parts replacements prior to the next production cycles.
--The base amount of engineers is calculated at 20 technician/engineers + 5 additional per 250 tons.
--The Automated Factory Units are designed to be combined together to allow for larger and more capable factories for increased levels of production.
--Defective Product Failure: In normal operating conditions, the amount of defective product produced per 8 hour production cycle is 0.5 percent. The amount of defective product increases by 0.5% for each maintenance cycle missed. When the product failure rate reaches 10%, the facility will go into automatic shut down for a 24 hour maintenance cycle before production can resume.
--Facility Failure: If any major mechanical issues happen during active production with missed maintenance cycles, for each mainteance cycle missed roll a percential dice, on a roll of between 00 and 75, a minor failure occurs, the required time for any repairs is equivalent to one day per each missed maintenance cycle before production can resume. On a roll of 76 and above, a major failure occures, and repairs will take three days per each missed maintenance cycle before production can resume.

Construction Rules:
--Most Automated Factory Units are installed on platforms that are large enough, no additional equipment is required, such as power generation or control systems. However, if the unit is deployed planet-side it will require additional equipment, a structure to house it, power generation, control systems, and housing for the technical and supporting staff.
--Control Systems Weight: Tonnage x 0.0075
--Control Systems Base Crew Minimum: 3 + 1 per 100 tons (round up)
--Power Generator Weight x 0.065 (Fusion), see the Power Generators for additional generator types
--Structure: see the Advanced Buildings in Tactical Operation for available structure types
--Housing: see rules in Advanced Buildings for the housing  needs of the assigned personnel (Technical, support, security)

Dimensions: each 1,000 ton factory unit covers 9 ground hezes with an elevation of 4. Each additional factory unit increases the length and width by two ground hexesw with an additional elevation of 1.

For BV, just skip the BV entirely and us the factory as a mission objective.  One side has to get vehicles close enough that infantry can steal its output, while the other side gets slow reinforcements and has to keep the raiders at bay.  The defenders can station troops in the factory and adjacent buildings,

When you say the base number of Technicians/Engineers is 20 + 5 per 250 tons, does that mean per 250 tons of output per cycle?  So if a single Factory was producing 50 tons of output, it would only need 21 Technicians/Engineers (20 + 1 per 50 tons)?  But if you had two Factories linked, so they were producing a total of 100 tons of output, then it would be 22 Engineers (20 + 2 for 100 tons)?  Good incentive to have linked Factories.

For Construction:
Control systems mass 7.5 tons per Automated Factory Unit (instead of needing to use the x.0075 multiplier, you just take the number of AFUs and multiply that by 7.5).
Control Systems base crew: Is the 1 per 100 tons of Factory, of output, or of Control System tonnage?
Power Generator Weight: 6.5 ton fusion reactor per AFU seems decent to me, as it is a dedicated system.

For size, how about if each AFU takes up 36 hex-levels, distributed as the player chooses.  For a single AFU, the max height is 3 levels.  Each AFU after the first allows for +1 max height, as long as that AFU is working to the same goal as the first.

So if a single AFU is building 50 tons of Basic Armor per day, then the AFU would be a maximum of 3 levels tall (some people might fluff it as a central hex that is 3 levels tall, a single 3-level tall out-processing warehouse, and five 'spars' heading out from the central hex, each spar composed of 3 hexes in length, and those three hexes are 2 levels tall.  This allows for raw material to be brought in at the end of the spars, employee parking/busses are alongside the spars, and transports are loaded at the warehouse section.  (power supplies are sourced from the local power grid).  The third floor of the central node is where the primary computer is located, along with the final armor testing areas (to ensure good products leave the facility).

Later on, the designer wants to add another AFU.  This gives the designer another 36 hex-levels to play with, and allows for a maximum of 4 levels in any hex.  The central hex is increased to 4 levels, but the 4th level is actually a basement level, with an onsite 13-ton fusion plant for backup power (darn raiders kept attacking the substations to interrupt production).  Each existing spur building is raised to 3 hexes.  For the remaining 20 hex-levels, each spur gets a pair of level-2 building extensions, to allow for better material input and smelting.  Total size is now:
Outgoing Warehouse: 3 hex-levels
Central Control Node: 4 hex-levels
5 Spurs: 3 hexes * 3 levels each, plus 2 hexes @ 2 levels each = 65 hex-levels

By making it where each additional AFU allows for +1 max level, it forces the designer to have a massive AFU array in order to build large and complex stuff.  I.e. if you want to build a Union Dropship (80 meters wide and tall), that means you need a location at least 7 hexes in size, and each of those hexes has to be 14 levels tall.  So if a single AFU only allows for up to 3 levels, 2 AFU allow up to 4 levels, then you need at least 12 AFUs to be able to build a Union (but 12 AFUs at top speed would allow for building ~2400 tons per day, or ~1.5 days per Dropship.  More complex items should receive a complexity multiplier.


Additional Options:
  • Damage to the building the factory is located in will count higher penalties to the defenders, as they are supposed to be keeping it safe (instead of turning it into a legitimate target).  This would be similar to existing rules about putting troops in hospitals to avoid being shot at
  • Damage to the building could also destroy the product that is to be stolen, so the attacker has to be careful where they are shooting
  • More complex items should take longer.  An AFU that is working to treat wastewater (i.e. an automated sewage processing unit at Standard production will produce 24,000 gallons per day, or able to handle ~400 people) will be able to work easily, while an AFU that is making advanced circuitry will have a smaller tonnage output yet a higher value output
  • At Standard level production (and assuming sufficient material is provided), an AFU can self-replicate in 10 days (1000 tons mass divided by 100 tons produced per day).


Only a 6 and some-year payback?  Heck, with that, everyone would be doing it...  ::)

You are assuming only a single shift.

Let me crunch some numbers from Revanche's Industrial Rules:
1) manual labor only (so only a x1 multiplier, instead of the higher multipliers for semi-automated or fully-automated)
2) the equipment is being installed by people into a new facility, meaning it only has to make Tier 2 systems instead of making the equipment and the final factory (which would be Tier 3).  This makes a x1.25 multiplier.
3) The equipment is nothing much special.  A Tool and Die shop essentially, where the people are building new lathes, drill presses, metal forming equipment, calipers, various hand tools, etc.  So instead of a highly complex item (such as a Battlermor, Combat Vehicle, or IndustrialMech), it is a regular item (i.e. a Support vehicle), so this is also a x1 multiplier.

Net: 250M * 1.25 = ~312.5M C-Bills.  Assuming 40M in production (i.e. a TL D factory making more TL D factories), that will be ~8 years to pay back.

But that 40M in production is assuming 1 shift.  Let's assume you want to go berserk with production.  You hire the necessary people, arrange the extra material income, go to 3 shifts, and use the weekends for line maintenance.  You are now producing 120M per year, meaning you will be able to self-replicate every ~2.6 years (a little less than 2 years and 8 months).  The final result is a factory-in-a-box (or several boxes), massing 144 tons.

Now if you had wanted to have a TL E Von Neuman setup (i.e. a fully automated factory self-replicating, which requires TL E), then the initial cost would be ~700M C-Bills, meaning the auto-factory would need almost 6 years to self-replicate, and would still need people (or more robots) on-site to construct the building that the resulting auto-factory would be installed in.  You would also be shipping ~200 tons of material to the destination.

Hmmm, to me those mass numbers seem a bit low for factory equipment.  Anyone work with new equipment for a factory that can express their opinions on this?


In that I do quite agree. Military production, especially in the BattleTech universe, does tend to be fortified and disposable fortifications aren't usually a thing.

The Complexity rules in Revanche's Industrial Rules have a x5 complexity multiplier for Mechs.  So if a Factory would cost ~312.5M for producing 40M per year per shift for basic tooling, then it would cost ~1.56B C-Bills to produce 40M worth of components to make a Battlemech.  If the factory was producing Battlemechs, then the facility would cost ~2.2B C-Bills, and only produce ~4 Atlas Mechs per year (plus 1,496,000 C-Bills worth of spares to fill up the full 40M C-Bills)


Edit:
In Revanche's Industrial Tycoon Handbook there are rules on pages 20-21 saying that Tool & Die shops were needed to produce Blocks.  Tool & Die shops can produce anything their TL or lower, but without the lower-tech production bonus.  Tool & Shops also cost 3* as much and only build at 1/3 the amount of an equivalent Block.  Here is a table comparing 3 TL D Factory Blocks vs and 3 TL D Tool & Die shops.  Neither have any automation (Tool & Die shops cannot be automated, so the Factory Blocks aren't automated either).  The Factory Blocks are producing Tier 2 items (so get a *1.25 multiplier in price).
Category3 * TL D Fact Blks    3 * TL D Tool & Die Shops    Notes
Cost937.5M C-B2811.5M C-B250M * 1.25 * 3 Blocks, and T&D get another x3 cost multiplier
Annual Production120M C-B40M C-BOutput is per shift per year, and T&D produce at 1/3 the rate for a Factory Block
Personnel (Laborers & Machinists)    120 & 663 & 63FB need 40 Lab & 1 Mach/shift + 1 Mach for wknd, T&D need equal numbers
Payroll per year199,680 C-B725,760 C-BLaborers get 320C-B/month, Machinists get 640 C-B/month, single shift + weekend maintenance
Payroll increase per +1 shift161,280 C-B725,760 C-BThe FB wknd maint was already included so only needed extra shift, T&D needed full extras
So a single TL D Tool & Die shop requires ~23 years to make another copy of itself assuming triple shifts.  This would take up 144 tons, and cost ~50M C-B just in labor.  Considering that a single TL D Tool & Die shop costs 937.5M C-B, labor cost is actually pretty cheap.

So time to cheat.  Set up a TL D Factory Block, that only builds TL D Tool & Die shops:
Cost of a TL D Factory Block, producing a Tier 2 item: 312.5M C-B.  Production = 40M C-B
Cost of a single TL D Tool & Die shop: 937.5M C-B

So assuming a single shift, it will take ~23 years to make a single TL D Tool & Die shop.  But the owner of that factory will likely have triple shifts going, dropping that time frame to just under 8 years to produce a single Tool & Die shop.  Given how valuable Tool & Die shops are, this facility will be very well protected, and eyed by all of its neighbors.

As each Tool & Die shop is built, they can be assigned to various nobles who will then use the Tool & Die shops to produce the Factory Blocks that they need.
« Last Edit: 15 June 2021, 04:01:05 by idea weenie »

Revanche

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #22 on: 25 June 2021, 11:10:53 »
Jumping in here (and I've shared this with idea weenie privately): while the intent of the rules were that T&D shops would not be mass-produced—since each one stands on its own and are not something you'd expect to see as franchise models—I think his "cheat" is an adequate way to get around the intentional difficulty of making them commonplace, without actually making them commonplace.

Col Toda

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #23 on: 16 July 2021, 04:19:38 »
The precedent I always used was from the Bezerker fluff text . 12 assembled in a presumably small factory in1 year . So 1200 tons of highly complex ,  tight tolerances , advanced tech ( guardian Ecm) .  I jack production by and order of magnitude if it is less complex like combat vehicles and another if all tech is tounement legal . I reduce it by an order of magnitude for experimental tech . So a small electronics factory could produce 60 Angel ECM suites or 800 Guardian ECM suites explaining all the fluff text on component choke points that prevent so many units from being produced enmass . I also triple production for large factories.  So a large factory could assemble  36,000 tons of ICE combat vehicles with 3039 tournament legal tech .

As the timeline advances so does the ability to produce higher tech equipment. This perspective also explains why invading clans had to use Inner Sphere tech for much of the rear area defense and actions and why Clans like the Nova Cats have Inner Sphere mechs like the Dragonfire on there random mech tables . They went from holding one or two worlds and parts of a couple more to dozens or hundreds in which all the Clans became over time hard pressed to even outfit their offensive clusters with all Clan tech . Decide 12 Dashis or 250 + Sokar combat vehicles to keep order on 60 + planets .  Or going strictly Inner Sphere 2,000 Manticore tanks from the 3039 TRO .

Kinda fits my real world observations.  Sherman Tank Round up to 40 tons aforementioned large factory produces 9,000 tanks per year and they built just shy of 50,000 during WW 2 and maybe a little after . In about 5 1/2 years of production . .
« Last Edit: 21 July 2021, 07:38:24 by Col Toda »

Daryk

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #24 on: 21 July 2021, 17:47:45 »
So... by those rules one factory could make 240,000 Savannah Masters per year?? ???

Col Toda

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #25 on: 22 July 2021, 08:48:06 »
Supply and Demand a major car manufacturer might push 250,000 units a year.  In the aforementioned Savannah Master example  I think 240000 of them comes to 1.44 Trillion so I doubt they would  use a large factory to build them and after making 48-60 per world for militia a small factroy putting out 80,000 would cover the Lyran Commonwealth 's needs with a nice surplus for combat losses  for a short while depending on tempo . So between the Civil War and the Jihad you might need another year's worth . Planetary militia yearly budget is 60 million on average . SOP Savannah Master stationed at fire bases for rapid response against objective raids the closest should be in range to join the garrison of the objective target so 12 Savannah Masters to supplement the defense.  If raiders move too slow 24 Savannah Masters to supplement defense And 12 to harrass retreat/ withdrawal.  Combat vehicles are attrition units the Savannah Master defines an attrition unit so no I do not think 80,000 is off base in a very high combat Tempo environment for a unit easily in the replacement budget of most Joe Q world militias .

Thanks for suggesting the Savannah Master so I could better make my point .
« Last Edit: 22 July 2021, 08:53:04 by Col Toda »

Daryk

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #26 on: 22 July 2021, 16:23:42 »
I only get a mere 22 billion for 240,000 Savannah Masters.  That should be well within a single (actually populated) planet's defense budget.

Col Toda

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #27 on: 23 July 2021, 05:27:53 »
Sadley the vast majority of world's are sparsely populated.  The Savannah Master will ultimately cost far more to having pilots trained and on the payroll than the hardware itself.  Ir is on the sparcely populated planets that have the wide open  terrain to make them usedul . A planet like Luthean they could not go anywhere near their normal speed . Heavily populated planets have way better options than a Savannah Master.  A trailer with 6 LRM 10s with smoke and mine ammo to cover your militias advance and restrict their movements is way more cost effective.  Savannah masters are a tool of attrition On plains or as the name puts it a Savannah.  The whole purpose of the design is to scew the calculas of how much resistance at the point of contact their is against an objective raid .   I still think my calculas on how fast or much something could be produced is separate from how much should be or would be desirable to produce . My aforementioned Sherman tank example was too illustrate both production speed and limits with the will and desire to make things at those limits due to war time conditions
« Last Edit: 23 July 2021, 05:51:49 by Col Toda »

Daryk

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Re: Factory Units
« Reply #28 on: 23 July 2021, 15:27:54 »
Fun fact: hovercraft that only use cruise speed don't need to make any driving rolls.  OTHER fun fact: a Savannah Master can generate a +4 target movement modifier using only cruise speed, with THREE turns, even...  ^-^

 

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