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Author Topic: Grenade Launchers  (Read 3709 times)

Daryk

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Grenade Launchers
« on: 24 February 2017, 21:51:53 »
I have to open this thread with a disclaimer: the ordnance rules aren't quite right, and when I get around to tweaking them, I'll have to rework what I have here.

That out of the way, what I think we've been missing is a more full treatment of grenade launchers.  The way the AToW and Tech Manual rules parse them out, "Compact" grenade launchers only use Class A ordnance (micro-grenades), and they are the only ones to use them.  Even more strangely, apparently none of the rifles that sling "Compact" grenade launchers as under barrel mounts actually use the single shot version: they all use either five or six shot versions which aren't listed independently anywhere (per the most recent printing of AToW, pages 266-267).

As for real world grenade launchers, semi-automatic versions existed at least as far back as Vietnam when China Lake built the SEALs a pump action 40 mm grenade launcher (the tube magazine could hold three rounds, and one more could be in the chamber for a total of four when fully loaded).  Today, six shot versions with rotary "magazines" are built by several countries, and the Mark 19 Grenade Machine Gun is a perfect analog for the "Heavy Grenade Launcher" (with the obvious exception of its weight; the latter is under half the weight of the real world version).  The US Objective Infantry Combat Weapon was prototyped with a 20mm semi-automatic "grenade" launcher that could be seen as an analog for one of the above micro-grenade launchers.  The US also experimented with 25 mm grenades, and other countries tried 30 mm and 35 mm grenade launchers.

Given all of the above, it struck me firing mode and ordnance should be independent factors in individual weapon design.  Thus, within the game, we should logically have single shot, semi-automatic (i.e., with a magazine size of at least three to get over the Reload Factor in the damage conversion formula), and fully automatic versions at each size of grenade.  In the "not quite right" category, the Clan Heavy Automatic Grenade Launcher is listed as using Class D (!) ordnance.  If we take 20 mm as being Class A, 30 mm for Class B, and 40 mm (the real world US standard) as Class C, that would put Class D somewhere in the 60 mm range, right up there with light mortars and LAW rockets.  In an effort to not change too much before I try to fix ordnance, I'll just roll with Clan tech using "Maxi" grenades as ammunition (I do have a question up about that in the rules forum; if that weapon really uses Class D ordnance, it's "reload" weighs twice what the weapon itself does).

So, without further ado, here's my Grenade Launcher table.  It includes single shot, semi-automatic and fully automatic versions at every grenade (ordnance) size.  Per the damage conversion rules from AToW Companion (page 170), the listed AP and BD are the average of the types available (among Anti-Infantry, Anti-Vehicle and High Explosive) at that size.  I took 40 mm as the size of "standard" grenades, which makes them Class C ordnance.  Micros are 20 mm, Minis are 30 mm, and Maxis are 60 mm.  For simplicity's sake, I assume any "Semi-Automatic" model has at least three shots to eliminate the damage reduction from the Reload Factor (RF).  To get the Class B Launchers close to their current incarnations in the rules, I had to assume a strange burst size (19) for the "Automatic Grenade Launcher".  Even doing that, the vanilla "Grenade Launcher" comes out with a little bit more damage than the Tech Manual tables would otherwise indicate (0.85 vs. 0.81 in the table; I've posted a rules question to that effect).  To remain consistent with the existing rules, they all have a 1/2/3 range for purposes of the tactical ('mech scale) game.  When I revisit this after trying to "fix" ordnance, I'll take another look at that.

Code: [Select]
Analog Ordnance AP BD PF Burst DF RF Crew TW Damage Weight (kg)
A Micro Grenade Launchers
Flare Gun 20mm Single Shot 3 7 0.75 1 32.9 0.333 1 0.16 3
OICW 20mm Semi-Auto 3 7 0.75 1 32.9 1 1 0.47 4
- 20mm Automatic 3 7 0.75 20 59.5 1 1 0.89 9
B Mini Grenade Launchers
- 30mm Single Shot 4 9 1 1 42.3 0.333 1 0.28 4
BS-1 Tishina 30mm Semi-Auto 4 9 1 1 42.3 1 1 0.85 5
AGS-17/30 30mm Automatic 4 9 1 19 74.7 1 1 1.49 12
C Grenade Launchers
M203 40mm Single Shot 6 10.667 1.5 1 50.133 0.333 1 0.50 5
China Lake 40mm Semi-Auto 6 10.667 1.5 1 50.133 1 1 1.50 6
Mk 19 40mm Automatic 6 10.667 1.5 5 58.667 1 1E 1.76 18
D Maxi Grenade Launchers (Clan)
- 60mm Single Shot 6 11.667 1.5 1 54.833 0.333 1 0.55 6
- 60mm Semi-Auto 6 11.667 1.5 1 54.833 1 1E 1.65 10
- 60mm Automatic 6 11.667 1.5 5 64.167 1 1E 1.93 20
« Last Edit: 17 April 2022, 02:55:58 by Daryk »

bluedragon7

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #1 on: 02 February 2018, 06:22:41 »
Hi,

I think you did not round the RoF part of the DF to the next full number for the RoF 1 weapons

Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #2 on: 02 February 2018, 19:07:10 »
Heh... I just said much the same in your thread up in the other sub-forum... :)

bluedragon7

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #3 on: 02 February 2018, 20:17:19 »
rounding does solve your issue with the grenade launcher (0.81 instead of 0.85) but how the automatic grenade launcher reaches the official 1.49 from a 5 round burst remains a mystery, unfortunately a 19 round burst would not help you as the resulting burst factor of 3.8 would get rounded to 4 for a total damage of 1.53 according to the errata

Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #4 on: 02 February 2018, 20:36:14 »
Unfortunately, I lost the thumb drive that had that spreadsheet... I'll probably get around to rebuilding it some time later this year...

Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #5 on: 18 June 2022, 10:13:31 »
A new Grenade Launcher from Rheinmetall in the 40mm range: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/this-new-automatic-grenade-launcher-looks-straight-out-of-terminator

Definitely a step up from the China Lake version!  8)

chanman

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #6 on: 18 June 2022, 18:36:39 »
Regarding the weight of the Mk. 19, the Mk. 47 offers significant weight savings. The HK GMG isn't quite as light, but there was a derivative that didn't seem to enter production that similarly reduced the weight (https://www.hkpro.com/threads/gmw-light-gmg.527875/).

12 kg seems light for the AGS 17/30, but it would fit the Norinco QLZ-87 and successor (LG5/QLU-11) which also have a 'light' configuration with bipod and 6 round drum (kinda like how some GPMGs have 'assault' configuratiosn)


Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #7 on: 18 June 2022, 18:57:35 »
Looking at my table, I think I used the Mk 47 weight for the AGL.  That first column is just for presumed analogs.

Nice pic!  :thumbsup:

Lazarus Sinn

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #8 on: 19 June 2022, 10:34:32 »
Following.
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DOC_Agren

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #9 on: 23 June 2022, 16:35:47 »
A new Grenade Launcher from Rheinmetall in the 40mm range: https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/this-new-automatic-grenade-launcher-looks-straight-out-of-terminator

Definitely a step up from the China Lake version!  8)
So will this guy be standing there firing it upright.. because you are not going to ground with it?

And I keep expecting the China Lake to be put into production again..  they tried in 07-09 for the Marines.
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pokefan548

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #10 on: 23 June 2022, 17:32:51 »
So will this guy be standing there firing it upright.. because you are not going to ground with it?

And I keep expecting the China Lake to be put into production again..  they tried in 07-09 for the Marines.
Last I heard, the rights to the design were a bit up in the air, and so far they seem... about as happy with the MGL as they are with anything else.
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Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #11 on: 23 June 2022, 18:14:40 »
Well, with the extended mag he won't be getting TOO prone...  ::)

Failure16

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #12 on: 25 June 2022, 14:21:36 »
Prone, Hell. I'd like to see someone carry that thing through something like Upstate NY forest or over the mountains/hills in a place like Greece (and there are worse places in the world even in those regards, like the jungle or Korea, say). Stowing it in a Boxer is probably a hoot with that magazine.

Not that I wouldn't mind have the ability to land a brace of 40 mike-mikes amongst an attacking platoon or squad or in a couple-three windows just as we start crossing a street, but I really do wonder about the ergonomics of it all. It beats a 203 for what it is, even if the extra rifle in a team is usually more useful in the long run and grand scheme of things.

Nice work on the initial data-dump, by the way, Daryk.
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Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #13 on: 25 June 2022, 14:37:15 »
Thanks for looking in F16!   :thumbsup:

I'm slowly working my way through the list.  It seems TPTB have shifted their approach to infantry weapons quite a bit, judging by the latest entries in Shrapnel.

RifleMech

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #14 on: 01 July 2022, 17:52:13 »
Looks good.  :thumbsup:  Is it wrong to want a vehicle mounted one? Not the one shot ones we have now but a multi-shot grenade launcher with ammo bins?


Other than nerfing primary weapons what have they changed?

Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #15 on: 01 July 2022, 21:23:29 »
They have added much longer ranged and much higher power weapons in the Standard Weapon category.  Some of them exceed Support Weapon stats in one or more ways.

RifleMech

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #16 on: 02 July 2022, 05:28:43 »
They have added much longer ranged and much higher power weapons in the Standard Weapon category.  Some of them exceed Support Weapon stats in one or more ways.

 ???  New weapons are good but didn't they nerf primary weapons not to long ago?

Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #17 on: 02 July 2022, 05:52:10 »
It's a strange nerf.  When used as primary weapons, they get capped at 0.6 damage but gain the Heavy Burst special.  At those vastly increased ranges.  Currently, the most egregious you can do is 3 points of damage at 7/14/21 range with the Heavy Burst special in a two-trooper squad.  A 10-trooper platoon does the full 15 points with 5d6 Anti-Infantry damage.

RifleMech

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #18 on: 02 July 2022, 17:11:15 »
10 troopers can do 15 points of damage?  :o

Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #19 on: 02 July 2022, 17:25:57 »
It was a bit worse before the nerf.  I'm still not sure it was worth it, though.

RifleMech

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #20 on: 02 July 2022, 17:47:58 »
I must be using the wrong weapons.

Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #21 on: 02 July 2022, 18:49:34 »
The specific weapons for that hack are a Barton Sniper Rifle (primary, of course) and Bear Hunter Autocannon.

DOC_Agren

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #22 on: 02 July 2022, 20:00:25 »
Prone, Hell. I'd like to see someone carry that thing through something like Upstate NY forest or over the mountains/hills in a place like Greece (and there are worse places in the world even in those regards, like the jungle or Korea, say). Stowing it in a Boxer is probably a hoot with that magazine.

Not that I wouldn't mind have the ability to land a brace of 40 mike-mikes amongst an attacking platoon or squad or in a couple-three windows just as we start crossing a street, but I really do wonder about the ergonomics of it all. It beats a 203 for what it is, even if the extra rifle in a team is usually more useful in the long run and grand scheme of things.

Nice work on the initial data-dump, by the way, Daryk.
What about using anAA12

with Frag-12 rounds?

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Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #23 on: 02 July 2022, 20:28:35 »
That combination sounds like using AP ammo in a shot gun... doable, but of questionable value...  ^-^

idea weenie

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #24 on: 02 July 2022, 22:30:07 »
That combination sounds like using AP ammo in a shot gun... doable, but of questionable value...  ^-^

It was used in the first Expendables movie here (just the AA-12), and here (Frag-12 vs a guard tower).  The key is to have someone sufficiently big and strong enough to wield it.

Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #25 on: 03 July 2022, 04:08:52 »
The AA-12 has very little recoil as I recall (FPS Russian fired the darn thing single handed!).

DOC_Agren

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #26 on: 03 July 2022, 12:09:44 »
That combination sounds like using AP ammo in a shot gun... doable, but of questionable value...  ^-^
Basicly would turn a shotgun into a 18mm GL or give it the range of BT compact GL. 
and with a Mag in place can kinda visual spoof a M16
The AA-12 has very little recoil as I recall (FPS Russian fired the darn thing single handed!).
correct there was a "combat drone" that was proposed to use 1
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"

Daryk

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #27 on: 03 July 2022, 12:22:00 »
Well, a three round burst of class A ordnance should get you 0.58 damage, just under the nerf cap...

RifleMech

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Re: Grenade Launchers
« Reply #28 on: 03 July 2022, 17:52:50 »
The specific weapons for that hack are a Barton Sniper Rifle (primary, of course) and Bear Hunter Autocannon.

The Barton is new to me. I'll have to check the errata for the Bear Hunter.