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Author Topic: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry  (Read 1047 times)

Daemion

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Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« on: 17 July 2021, 14:04:47 »
Holy crap.  I set out today to make some versions of Frontline Infantry that I would be okay fielding, and I forgot I'd already made some!

See the attached PDFs.

What am I looking at?
You're looking at a reinterpretation of ye olde BattleDroids infantry.  However, instead of one point of damage wiping a whole squad we have something different.
Each PDF shows a series of cards that you can print and cut out.
Each card has the platoon broken down into four squads, each numbered with 7 boxes next to it indicating the men in the squad. Next to them is the designated support weapon for attacking armored units.  Next to those are boxes for gunnery skills behind the support weapons, and next to that may or may not be a line for any anti-Mech skill. In the attack boxes are the list of attacks available to each squad in the platoon.

Special Note: The Anti-Infantry range bands were a general catch-all not bothering with individual weapons load-out.  It works under the assumption that half a kilometer is an upper limit to general infantry fire-fights without any augmentation such as laser-sights and HUD targeting in a trooper's helmet.

According to Sarna, the Auto-Rifle (that is the new hotness out of Total Warfare Infantry Construction) has the RPG ranges of 30/75/170/415.  That's meters, which equates to 1/3/6/14 BattleTech hexes, if you round .5 fractions up.

In comparison, the Laser Rifle has an RPG range of 60/205/465/1100 meters. That's 2/7/16/37 standard BattleTech Hexes.
Upon request, I can rework some of these with those ranges substituted in for the anti-infantry ranges.  Technically, the support weapon should probably be able to engage at longer ranges, but would be participating in the anti-infantry attack, so will most generally be functioning at the same range as the other AnPers weapons.
I can also work out some 'blank sheets' for anyone wanting to get creative.


How I would run these:
See below.

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Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #1 on: 17 July 2021, 14:35:52 »
How I would run these:
Movement:
They would move as standard foot infantry. 
Frontline restrictions on firing - none.  (See Frontline/Support Disambiguation, below.)
Support restrictions on firing - support weapons cannot fire after a movement phase where  the squad/platoon spent MP.


Attacking Other Targets: Option 1 (Like standard BattleArmor)
The platoon functions like a BattleArmor squad.  They Fire as one unit, and then roll on the cluster hits table to find out how many hits are actually scored. 

Against armored units, roll on the column matching however many support weapons are left. Each support weapon's damage is resolved separately, as per BattleArmor.  Mark off ammo where indicated (SRM). 

Against other infantry, roll to see how many squads hit against the target infantry formation.  Use the listed anti-infantry range values for to-hit modifiers.  Each squad that hits rolls its damage separately, adding the support weapons damage to the total.  If the support weapon uses ammo, mark any ammo use.



Attacking Other Targets: Option 2 (Taking advantage of the Dice Chucking Mechanic)
Infantry have a lot of bodies, and thus have a lot of versatility.  In this version, each squad and support weapon gets its own gunnery value.  (I will need to modd the cards to allow for an AnPers gunnery.)

A platoon is not limited to targeting one enemy unit or formation.  While the support weapons focus on one or more armored targets, the regulars are free to engage other infantry formations.  Each squad is free to fire at any individual targets for which it has a Gunnery Value. 

Note: Anti-Mech attacks are highly involved affairs, and are the one exception, where the entire platoon takes part.

Each target must be declared.  Each attack is rolled separately, regardless of whether more than one attack shares a target. Damage is resolved separately.  Resolve an entire platoon's range of attacks before moving on to another unit in the Attack Phase.

If a squad is using its support weapon in an anti-infantry attack, it uses the squad's anti-personnel ranges. (For now.  I'll look up support weapon ranges in the RPG for those who want them.) Otherwise, it uses the standard weapon range values against armored targets.

(Aside: Doing it this way also means that it can be easily justifiable to print out single squad cards and run them separately.  And, if you want them to function as a partial or whole platoon in the middle of the game, you can easily do so, before parting them out again, as desired.)

Taking Attacks and Damage: See below
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CVB

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #2 on: 17 July 2021, 14:46:17 »
Interesting. I will experiment a bit with them, but only next weekend.
Nitpick: The Flamer Platoon cards refer to Machine Guns.
(edit: the right SRM platoon card of the heavy infantry pdf does as well /edit)

Questions:
Is there a special reason why the Heavy Infantry pdf contains two SRM platoons, but only one platoon each of the other types?

Is it intentional that the second platoon of each type doesn't contain satchels? (both pdfs)
« Last Edit: 17 July 2021, 14:51:15 by CVB »
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Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #3 on: 17 July 2021, 15:12:53 »
Interesting. I will experiment a bit with them, but only next weekend.
Nitpick: The Flamer Platoon cards refer to Machine Guns.
(edit: the right SRM platoon card of the heavy infantry pdf does as well /edit)

Questions:
Is there a special reason why the Heavy Infantry pdf contains two SRM platoons, but only one platoon each of the other types?

Is it intentional that the second platoon of each type doesn't contain satchels? (both pdfs)

Will get to this once I'm finished with my other suggestions. 
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Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #4 on: 17 July 2021, 15:23:27 »
Other Units Attacking an Infantry Platoon: Option 1 (Like Battle Armor)
The platoon is attacked as a whole.  But, once a hit is determined, the squad hit is rolled for, and it takes the full damage of an attack.  Each attack is applied separately, as per BA rules, and there is no damage transfer between squads.

Other Units Attacking an Infantry Platoon: Option 2 (You can't hide from SkyNet)
Any unit can pick out and declare any number of attacks on an existing squad in a platoon.  Other squads can also be attacked separately, but receive the 'Attacking Additional Targets' modifier.

Other Units Attacking an Infantry Platoon: Option 2.5 (You can't hide that big gun from SkyNet)
An extension of Option 2, any unit may declare an attack against a squad's support weapon. (Aside: If you think it should be a little extra difficult, you can add a small-size modifier of +1, or a targeted roll as if using a targeting computer on an active unit modifier of +3.  This does come down to taste: I'm of the opinion that Humies are too squishy and not quick enough to avoid a near speed of light shot sent at them by a near AI level targeting system.)

Anti-Personnel Attacks From Non-Infantry Units (Including Battle Armor)
In regards to what ranges to use when attacking infantry, I'll offer up some options, because it all depends on how 'nice' you want to be to infantry.  I'll explain why in the upcoming Disambiguation.

- Stock range:  Any unit that doesn't have a listed Anti-Infantry attack with range bands uses a stock range of Short: 6, Medium: 12, Long: 18, and Extrem: 24

- Stock Range (Anti-Infantry Guns Only):  Only Guns in the Anti-Infantry weapons list get the stock range when attacking an infantry platoon.  All other weapons use their anti-armor programming and stick to anti-armor ranges.

- Stock Range (AI Guns only, with modded damage at range.): They get to use the stock range of 6/12/18/24, but only get to use their full anti-infantry damage inside the short range band, then revert to standard anti-armor damage at medium and beyond.



Applying Damage to an Infantry Platoon:
This is pretty simple.  Once a squad is hit with an attack, it takes damage.  How much depends on what version of rules you decide to use.  Total Wafare folks have their list of anti-infantry weapons and the damage divisors for anything not on it.  CityTech - BMR users can just apply the attack's damage.

Then, there's the anti-infantry damage I've added as part of the cards to use.


Critical Hits on an Infantry Platoon:
If a squad survives, but you think there's a chance the support weapon(s) in a squad can be knocked out, you can roll a crit chance similar to checking for one against an ASF.  On an 8+ the weapon is hit and destroyed.  The trooper carrying it is also a casualty. 

No such crit roll is required if the weapon was directly targeted.

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Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #5 on: 17 July 2021, 15:30:31 »
Okay. Before my Disambiguation:

Interesting. I will experiment a bit with them, but only next weekend.
Nitpick: The Flamer Platoon cards refer to Machine Guns.
(edit: the right SRM platoon card of the heavy infantry pdf does as well /edit)

Thanks for pointing that out.
Give me a couple hours, and I'll go through and fix the MG lines.  :-[
I think I was in a hurry on the morning I put these together.  ::)

Questions:
Is there a special reason why the Heavy Infantry pdf contains two SRM platoons, but only one platoon each of the other types?

Is it intentional that the second platoon of each type doesn't contain satchels? (both pdfs)

1)Probably has everything to do with the render when I went to convert it to PDF.  Oddly enough, I've tried opening the RTF file, and it's corrupted.  So, I'll have to start from scratch.

2)Yes. Those are Infantry that have no Anti-Mech skill whatsoever, and/or don't have the equipment to make the attack.  Remember that Anti-Mech trained Infantry are generally considered rare, elite units that have not only the training, but the fortitude to pull of such attacks.  I was trying to give people units of each calibur, eliminating unnecessary stats for ease of reference and lack of confusion.  So, what you're supposed to see on the Heavy Infantry right side is non-Anti-Mech versions of what you see on the left.

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Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #6 on: 17 July 2021, 15:42:05 »
Disambiguation - Frontline and Support
Frontline Infantry are generally the best of the best, put in situations where most soldiers generally don't want to be.  That's usually facing down giant metal monsters, whether those crawl, hover, roll, or stomp.

As such, they generally get the best gear to help them in that situation.  This includes, of all things, a gyro-stabilized support harness for the heavy weapons.  You know.  That cool thing in Aliens that the colonial marines used to carry their ma deuces.  While something like this might be considered a PA/L exoskeleton, it's simple enough not to actually provide any honest protection, but still allow the wearer to run and gun with a very heavy weapon. ;)

Support Infantry are your bog standard grunt.  They will undoubtedly have some sort of specialization that gives them functionality beyond holding a gun.  But, they're not really around for facing dragons... I mean BattleMechs or Tanks without using dirty tricks.  They're more around to man stations or deal with other guys like them.  That also means no gyro-stabilized harness for the big gun. 


Disambiguation - Light and Heavy Platoons
Light Platoons have only one heavy support weapon in each squad.
Heavy Platoons have two heavy support weapons in each squad.

I may go ahead and make a support level platoon that carries no support weapon at all.  Might call it Security.  And, while I'm at it, I'll work out individual squad cards.

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Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #7 on: 17 July 2021, 15:42:37 »
So, yeah.  Give me a few, and I'll have corrected card sheets to print and cut out.

It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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CVB

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #8 on: 17 July 2021, 16:12:26 »
Give me a couple hours, and I'll go through and fix the MG lines.  :-[
I think I was in a hurry on the morning I put these together.  ::)

No worries, it happens :)

Quote
1)Probably has everything to do with the render when I went to convert it to PDF.  Oddly enough, I've tried opening the RTF file, and it's corrupted.  So, I'll have to start from scratch.

Sorry to hear that :(

Quote
2)Yes. Those are Infantry that have no Anti-Mech skill whatsoever, and/or don't have the equipment to make the attack.  Remember that Anti-Mech trained Infantry are generally considered rare, elite units that have not only the training, but the fortitude to pull of such attacks.  I was trying to give people units of each calibur, eliminating unnecessary stats for ease of reference and lack of confusion.  So, what you're supposed to see on the Heavy Infantry right side is non-Anti-Mech versions of what you see on the left.

Thought so.
Personally I would prefer to have all the cards like those on the left and strike through satchel entries and AM skill underlines (or boxes like the Gunnery skill?) when not applicable instead of adding them to those on the right when more are needed.
Strictly personal taste.
"Wars result when one side either misjudges its chances or wishes to commit suicide; and not even Masada began as a suicide attempt. In general, both warring parties expect to win. In the event, they are wrong more than half the time."
- David Drake

I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but I'm not willing to hang it by the neck until it's dead, dead, dead!

Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #9 on: 17 July 2021, 18:35:04 »
Yup. It just turns out that I was in a hurry when I whipped those up.  xp

Anyhow, I broke down the platoons by support weapon.

Working on Solo Squad cards next, and some blanks.

For now, see attached.

Side note:
Flamers - I can see people wanting to restrict those to their base range of 1/2/3.  Since we're looking at what amounts to water guns with flammable fluid, feel free to restrict weapons as necessary.

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Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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Maingunnery

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #10 on: 17 July 2021, 19:46:34 »
If I read this correctly then the SRM platoons have a maximum of 14 salvos?
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Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #11 on: 17 July 2021, 21:10:10 »
14 per squad? Sounds about right.  Although, if you feel it's necessary, Guys carrying the support weapon don't count toward the number of Active troopers  (This should definitely be the case for Anti-Infantry attacks.).  And, as a squad takes damage, that value can drop off fast.

Attached below - individual squads.

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Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #12 on: 17 July 2021, 21:19:03 »
Finally - Support squads and blank cards.

I'm gonna have to take a break for a while, since I spent most of the day formatting these.

I'm sure there're better ways to make the layout, but this is just conceptual. 

If people are interested, I could play around with anti-personnel attacks based on RPG ranges for stock weapons.  However, I have no idea what would be considered standard, by faction.  So, if anyone has any ideas, let me know.

This will have to be later in the week. 

Coming soon: (Aside from the remaining factions in the War of a Million Years preview...) 1980s Combat Emulation via MegaForce toys. ;)


Since this is all fan rules, take what you like from all this.  If anyone wants the actual pictures I used to make these for personal reformatting, you'll have to PM me.

It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

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DevianID

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #13 on: 19 July 2021, 13:43:25 »
So im a huge fan of battle droids style infantry with weapons.  That said, using the infantry scale rules for infantry on infantry range is also really cool.

My issue:  what is the actual time to kill a trooper in the infantry scale at such ranges?  In the "real world" infantry shooting infantry in cover at range takes lots and lots of shots.  Aka, how many turns does it take an infantryman in the rpg to down another infantry at each range, and how many btech turns is that.  I would use THAT to determine the infantry on infantry damage instead of the TW infantry on mech damage that gives a value of .5 to an autorifle.

Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #14 on: 26 July 2021, 12:23:24 »
It generally takes a few rounds to kill a(n N)PC, but only a couple to wound them enough that they're out of the fight.  Even in MW 2nd Ed, the damage would be applied to a modified pilot consciousness meter, and enough damage would put a character on the ground, unconscious, although the first hit could be to an arm, rendering it useless, or a leg, rendering the character immobile.

When I initially came up with the stats, I had a randomized style of infantry-on-infantry resolution in mind that tracked crit level rather than body-count.

Because you're right.  A lot of firefights involve maneuver from cover to cover, while laying down fire to keep the enemy pre-occupied enough so that they don't simply pick off your guys.  This can go for minutes at a time.  Or, something lucky could happen and it could be quick.

(Aside: This was why I think taking objectives would be what infantry are about, and why I proposed a simple value of whether they survive an attack or not.  That's in another thread, though.)

But, being out in the open is very lethal, no matter how you move.  Charges are not a thing in modern combat where it can be avoided.  Throw in enhancement options like computer assisted targeting/aiming presented on a HUD in the helmet, and it might be pretty easy for both sides to pick each other off pretty quickly, even with cover.

It's 400 years in the future. The battlefield is probably a very scary place. 

So, that's why I leave it up to the user. 

If you think damage should be light most of the time, slowly piling up at random, then the actual amount of damage done to a squad should probably be small.

But, that's why I base the damage on the number of uninjured guys in a squad not dedicated to firing a support weapon.  I'm not seeing damage as just killing the guy.  Most troopers can be rendered Mission Kills by taking mere wounds that will either traumatize them, or make it so they simply can't fight without killing themselves.  Assuming each man in a squad can pick off a guy, and maybe get lucky enough to spread the damage around between the group. If this feels like overkill, feel free to play around with it.

For example, maybe have the squad's anti-infantry damage simply be 1d6 minus the inactive number of squad troopers.  (Inactive being someone firing a support weapon, or marked off as a casualty.)(C)

Or, you could relegate it to the advanced critical hit chart out of TacOps.  (I'm thinking of MaxTech, actually, but I thought it got ported forward.) Add the squad's basic AnPers damage to a crit check, and the number of crits indicated is the number of troopers taken out in the target.

Heck, if you wish, you could even have cover reduce AnPers damage instead of adding it to a to-hit value. 

Or, why bother with a to-hit roll altogether, and just got straight to modifying the squad's damage, maybe on the cluster table.

(C) I may play around with the cards again to reflect this soon, because I actually like the smaller value making for longer firefights, especially for bog standard support troops that have no built-in enhancement packages in their gear.

There are so many things we could use that already exist in other aspects of the game to make this work and still make it intuitive.

edit: removing a few 'so's.  ::)
« Last Edit: 26 July 2021, 12:25:26 by Daemion »
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Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #15 on: 26 July 2021, 12:30:16 »
Secondly, we could also have fun with factions and persistence.

Some factions or units in a faction may be more gung-ho, willing to lay their life on the line to get in one more shot.  Others will be safety conscious knowing that if they die today, they can't fight back tomorrow when it might really matter.

That could come in the form of a damage modifier.  A squad might take extra damage, but give extra.  It could be a limited time thing, maybe once a game.  It could be based on the unit's commander.

But, this feels like something more for a BattleTroops than for Armored combat level.
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DevianID

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #16 on: 26 July 2021, 18:18:37 »
I mean, each faction can definately have infantry with their own spin without going crazy.  Simple binary  things like armor and mobility and laser/auto rifle make 8 types on infantry.  Add in squad size variety and most powers are covered.

Daemion

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Re: Ideal Standard Game Scale Infantry
« Reply #17 on: 27 August 2021, 16:22:05 »
So, my group tried it out, and it was great.

My friend had set up a scenario for a Dark Age campaign he is running, where the other guy in the group and I are running an experimental Republic Quad-vee unit.  Well, one of the secondary pieces of equipment our group had access to was an experimental series of Power Suits/Battle Armor.

We got called in to supplement some Republic infantry going through a hidden base, and they got ambushed by a large number of WoB cultists.

The Cultists were purely support infantry, but had three LB-X 2s hastily moved into place, which was manned by three squads.

The bog standard anti-infantry attack ranges worked just fine. 

We did decide to use the values I had listed for squad-based Anti-Infantry damage to check against the Critical Hit Chance table to find the actual number of troopers hit.  (Out in the open we would then double the damage, as per the standard rules.)

For heavy weapons, we kept the stock BMR damage rules. 
The one exception was the Flamer.  We borrowed the 3d6 TW damage, but kept the range bands to stock 1/2/3.



Fun adaptation (Battle Armor):
My friend designed the BA using the Heavy Metal Light ProtoMech program.  So, we had much more granular detail on the sheets.  We did use the proto hit location table, but, when a 3 or 11 was rolled, though damage was considered 0, it was treated as a 'pilot hit' instead, to show that it's a suit of power armor rather than a protomech.

I really liked this, and if I were to work out a set of BattleTroops revised, this would be how I handled BA.


In fact, a couple of future tweaks I'd make for this:
- Cut the 30 meter hexes to 15s, that way we could have a little bit more nuance in infantry movement.
- And, maybe cut turn lengths to 5 seconds to show rapid-fire weapons and reload rates for heavier guns.
- Armor ratings for squads.
     By this, the armor rating would be either the target value for the crit-chance roll, or a modifier value.  This way, different classes of armor will have a noticeable effect on the number of troopers eliminated.  While I could also add a secondary value for weapon penetration, I don't want to complicate this too much, so I think I'll just leave it to the armor.
- Heroes.
     PCs and other key personnel, like VIPs, special objectives and such.  This will be long-term.

Overall, it worked!  I'm pleased with the results and plan on doing more with it when I can.





It's your world. You can do anything you want in it. - Bob Ross

Every thought and device conceived by Satan and man must be explored and found wanting. - Donald Grey Barnhouse on the purpose of history and time.

I helped make a game! ^_^  - Forge Of War: Tactics

 

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