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Author Topic: Infantry and vehicle spaces  (Read 3810 times)

Hptm. Streiger

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Infantry and vehicle spaces
« on: 08 December 2017, 10:20:13 »
Intro:
Some might know that I started to have fun with Sketchup and to redesign the BT-vehicles almost on a "Nuts & Bolts" level.
During the process - somebody told me that the SRM/LRM carriers are makeshift vehicles based on crude tracked vehicles (not so true when you look in the TRO3039) but the idea was to brilliant to ignore it.
So I searched the TROs for a "base" vehicle and found one in the Heavy APC.

Two platoons?
6tons = 2 platoons = 50-60 people - after reading a really actual study the average US-Soldier seem to have a BMI of >25 + equipment they will consume lots of space, unless you pile them like logs. I would rather take those APCs to transport Jump Infantry - a single platoon even with jump packs and heavy weapons would have a very comfortable ride.
after pushing some numbers i realized that 35tons would be adequate weight for a infantry carrier that can have two platoons.
a picture:


The Issue
The battletech construction rules doesn't take "space" serious, you have some abstract slots but that is it. You end up with VTOLs that can have a autocannon and some missiles or (a platoon of soldiers) - the later means the body of that VTOL need to be as big as the body of a DC-3....  but this size would eat up tons in structural mass you don't need for the "gun-ship"

The Solution
I think it was a coincidence that i calculated the APC ~ 35tons. Because with 35tons you have 5+35/5 = 12 Slots. Instead of calculation 1 Infantry Compartment with 1 space - i would break it down to 6 soldiers = 1 space. (2 fire teams)
So 6tons (60 soldiers (WoB)) would consume 10 slots instead of 1. + 2 machine guns and you need 12 slots of space.

To make it more simple - 1 squad = 1space. 1 BattleArmor = 1 Space.
So a star of 5 Elementals would 5 Spaces in a combat vehicle - same as 25 Soldiers (rounded up)

What do you think?


Daryk

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #1 on: 08 December 2017, 12:34:55 »
That sounds quite reasonable, I think.  The hitch is that "squads" can be up to 10 troops.

Also, if you haven't seen it before, I'd be interested in your opinion of how I built a planetary militia around infantry mechanized primarily with Goblins, here.

worktroll

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #2 on: 08 December 2017, 13:47:18 »
The "clown car" effect is but one of the 'approximations' in BT which require suspension of disbelief. Heck, I designed the Main Gauche IFV, which somehow fits up to 30 people inside.

This is a sensible approach, although I might go to either 5 or 7 troopers per slot (5 for mathematical ease, 7 because the stock IS squad tends to be 7 troopers). How would you handle BA - 1 suit per slot?
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Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #3 on: 08 December 2017, 14:20:17 »
i realized that my bias towards wob is an issue. yes 7 is a typical squad and the equivalent of a single medium BA
so maybe we should consider 1 space for either 0.75ton of infantry or 1ton.
hm things like the Hetzer reminds that ammo need spaces either, oh and heatsinks
 and...
 and...

Andras

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #4 on: 08 December 2017, 16:43:56 »
The "clown car" effect is but one of the 'approximations' in BT which require suspension of disbelief. Heck, I designed the Main Gauche IFV, which somehow fits up to 30 people inside.

This is a sensible approach, although I might go to either 5 or 7 troopers per slot (5 for mathematical ease, 7 because the stock IS squad tends to be 7 troopers). How would you handle BA - 1 suit per slot?

The old US M44 APC held 3 crew and 24 passengers in 21'x10'x9' overall dimensions, weighing 25tons.
The LVPT5 carried 34 seated or 45 standing passengers in 30'x12'x9' weighing <44tons.

boilerman

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #5 on: 09 December 2017, 12:24:37 »
Excellent idea in my opinion HS. And nice art.

I like the idea of 1 space per 7-soldier squad. But rather than count people, why not just count mass? One ton of infantry compartment, or equivalent for battle armor, requires 1 space: round up. Makes the math simpler.

Way back when I modeled some infantry bay layouts in Sketchup to see how much space a platoon would require. The link is to the bay layout thread of that project. The take away for me was that platoon bays are possible, and reasonable, but something needed to be done to account for the space, I was thinking additional mass back then. But I think HS has the solution.

http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=2792.0
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Daryk

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #6 on: 09 December 2017, 13:33:25 »
Nice work as always, boilerman!  I have no idea how I missed that thread back when you first posted it.  The four row layout is how I remember being crammed into a C-130 in full battle rattle (small arms fire was a possibility, so we all had to wear our body armor for the flight out).  The next trick is figuring out those even bigger infantry carriers (the heavy APCs and the MG variant Goblin with 5 tons of space for infantry).  A quick sketch I did in Visio (now lost) showed it might be possible to cram 50 people into a hull, but it was REALLY tight.

And I fully agree with the idea of making infantry bays take up one space per ton (conventional or BA).  That would scale for the larger BA too (i.e., two 1.5 ton suits in a 3 ton bay).

Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #7 on: 10 December 2017, 02:56:50 »
In an attempt to create a Warrior, I looked for variants one of the said that the bay was able to hold 4 Elementals. The bulk of the detatchable SRM launcher makes this comical.
What is the weight of a Elemental or Fa-Shi without detatchable pod? Maybe that could be the Minimum.
Although a Elemental could also put the pod in a container on the outside and ride inside without the.

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #8 on: 10 December 2017, 23:08:14 »
I also like the idea of counting people. Volume is important. With people, mass is variable. But, most people will take up roughly the same space. So, in the old rules, a platoon weighed three tons. That's roughly 9-10 guys per ton. How much did motorized weigh, again?

As for counting bodies, it makes sense. If you want to accommodate an odd amount of people, you add another slot to handle excess.

I think 'Troll's right about 5 or 7.

How many slots should jump infantry take up? That pack takes up a lot of space. How about motorized. 2 Per Jump Trooper? 3 for motorized cyclists?

Asside: Reading this makes me want to finish my tru-scale Heavy APCs using DA MASH vehicles.

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Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #9 on: 12 December 2017, 03:36:01 »
Motorized Infantry is something i tried to avoid in the past.

But you are correct we need a model. After some attempts with buggy and motorcylce mockups (are wheelforms possible?, or monocycles...with a attached machine gunner..... :o ???) - I think 10-14 motorized infantry is the maximum. (and the buggy is not much bigger as a smart for 3 people and a mini for 5)
Considering that those 8 squads of foot infantry also makes me uncomfortable (6 squads would be better)

- what about 6 foot = 4 jump = 2 motorized infantry ... 6 elementals on their knees and with removed SRM rack could be possible too (found a 3d model on sarna.net ... and used 3m as celling for the SRM)

boilerman

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #10 on: 13 December 2017, 00:43:11 »
I don't see the point of putting motorized infantry in an APC. If I want to carry them long distances for whatever reason I'd put them on logistics trucks, a la WW2 infantry and the deuce and half truck. My preferred model for motorized infantry is the Hammer Slammers, single-soldier hover vehicles. Stack the sleds, as I like to call them, like cord wood in one truck and the infantry in another. And unload before you get to the battlefield.

But to each their own.
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Daryk

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #11 on: 13 December 2017, 06:52:05 »
The only thing I see motorized infantry useful for is field artillery, but even there mechanized might be a better choice.

Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #12 on: 13 December 2017, 08:04:12 »
I don't see the point of putting motorized infantry in an APC. If I want to carry them long distances for whatever reason I'd put them on logistics trucks, a la WW2 infantry and the deuce and half truck. My preferred model for motorized infantry is the Hammer Slammers, single-soldier hover vehicles. Stack the sleds, as I like to call them, like cord wood in one truck and the infantry in another. And unload before you get to the battlefield.

But to each their own.

Maybe thats the correct answer... motorized infantry has a mass value - because it should be possible to ship them in dropships, transport vtols or anything else... its not said that it is a good idea to ferry into battle with an APC.

skiltao

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #13 on: 21 December 2017, 15:33:32 »
To make it more simple - 1 squad = 1space. 1 BattleArmor = 1 Space.
So a star of 5 Elementals would 5 Spaces in a combat vehicle - same as 25 Soldiers (rounded up)

What do you think?

Interesting project!

Considering how 1 squad = 1 ton and 1 battlesuit = 1 ton, you've basically arrived at 1 slot = 1 ton. May as well use tonnage as your starting point and ignore "slots" entirely - it's not like a machine gun occupies the same volume as an AC/2 either.
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Hptm. Streiger

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #14 on: 22 December 2017, 04:21:29 »
Interesting project!

Considering how 1 squad = 1 ton and 1 battlesuit = 1 ton, you've basically arrived at 1 slot = 1 ton. May as well use tonnage as your starting point and ignore "slots" entirely - it's not like a machine gun occupies the same volume as an AC/2 either.
thx for the feedback

about the weapons - during my 3d experiments i realized that weapons doesn't consume that much internal space. You have the reload mechanism and the ammunition - a SRM 6 if you construct it with reloading mechanism would consume roughly the same area as a large laser.....


latest started project (i really should start to finish projects before starting new ones)



I changed the missile system completely instead of RPG-7 style volleys you have real missiles: - 138x1104mm SALCOS missiles. a missile weight ~ 30kg.
So a ton of SRM6 ammunition are 30 missiles instead of 90 (the volume consumed however would be the same)

The bigger the weapon the more space is needed. Maybe we can use the "5t" = 1 space rule.  :)

A list of spaces.

  • 1ton = 1slot- infantry, ammunition
  • 2ton = 1slot - heatsinks, power amplification, turrets
  • 5ton = 1slot - weapon

We could add equipment that grand additional slots (a turret for example)

Speaking about the Kurita Goblin:
Currently the infantry space is roomy enough to ferry up to 12 light equipped soldiers into battle (no body armor, no tactical vests eg.) same space is also enough for 6 PAL or Light Battlearmor. (this is enough room for a Taurian squad of 10 soldiers)

running the math:
  • Large Pulse Laser Turret - 2 slots
  • SRM6 - Turret - 1 slot
  • Ammunition- Turret - 1 slot
  • MachineGuns Body - 2 slot
  • Ammunition- Machine Guns - 1 slot
  • Infantry - 2 slot available
I consume 9 slots with 4 in the turret.

now the kurita version should have
  • 2 SRM6 - Turret - 2 slot
  • Ammunition- Turret - 2 slot
  • MachineGuns Body - 6 slots
  • Ammunition- Machine Guns - 1 slot
  • Infantry - 5tons would need 5 slots

In the end 14 slots are used, 4 in the turret - this would also be the exact number of spaces available for a Goblin using the standard rules for spaces. (45/5+5)
But how could there be 30-50 Soldiers be placed in the rear?
I could reduce the size of the turret. (by droping the reload mechanism and turn the SRM 6racks into a big - One Shot rack. This would allow to increase the size of the troop compartment - so those guys might be able to stand or lean instead of sitting.  :(


I wonder about a plausible function of those triangles at the side skirts. As additional armor they don't make sense. A framework that hold the weight of the skirts?

« Last Edit: 22 December 2017, 07:49:58 by Hptm. Streiger »

skiltao

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Re: Infantry and vehicle spaces
« Reply #15 on: 22 December 2017, 14:41:36 »
I'm not sure which triangles you're talking about. But the 30kg missiles are a good look! If the reload mechanism doesn't leave enough room for infantry inside the tank, maybe the Kurita variant can put them outside the main hull, in an armored trailer?

Also, if you haven't gotten to autocannons yet, I've noticed that they seem to be smaller for their weight than laser weapons are. Maybe 8tons = 1 slot for ballistic weapons.
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