The Nirasaki-400X Battle Computer

[RifleMech]

The Nirasaki-400X Battle Computer was used to make the Fury Command Tank for the SLDF Royals. Regulars were issued Furys without the computer.
Reading through the lines from TRO:2750 pg 114, we learn that it weighs .5 tons and required an extra crewman. The Fury II removes and replaces it with .5 tons of armor. Adding up the weights for the Fury on page 115 you can see the Fury is .75 tons underweight. .5 tons without fractional accounting.

The Nirasaki was only mounted on the Fury and was considered lost during the Succession Wars. Until more were found in the late 3060's. Reading TRO:3050U pg 178, we learn that it's actually precursor to Comstar's/WoB's C3i system. They replaced it though beacuse it was old and clunky. I'm not so sure about that. Anyway, here's my house rules for the Nirasaki.

Nirasaki-400X Battle Computer.
Packed with 6 processors the Nirasaki Battle Computer allows the Furry to command a battalion of troops. When tied into the com system it can track enemy movements.
It also functions as similarly to the CS/WoB C3i System. Up to six Nirasaki Computers can be linked together. (Typically only four were linked.) This allows coordination between the battalion leader and his/her company commanders. There are some differences, however. The first is that the Nirasaki does not replicate TAG. The second is that it requires an additional crewmember to operate the system.

Edit: The third difference is that ECM will block the C3 abilities of the Nirasaki Computer.

Quirks: Units add the Battle Computer Quirk and the Command Mech/Tank Quirks. The unit has a +3 to initiative only because of the extra crewman.
Manufacturer: Jolassa-Kumbold Armored Weapons
Crew: +1.
Weight: .5 tons
Critical Space: 1 slot
Availability: XFXXX 
Cost: A lot!
There were 12 in 3068 so they'd be hard to get and very expensive. Unless you can get Jolassa to make more. 


Thoughts?

[David CGB]

Nice it could work….

[Daryk]

Half a ton seems light for +3 initiative.  Honestly, even +1 would be an advantage over the two tons of Communications Equipment you would otherwise need to get that.

[RifleMech]

Nice it could work….

I think so.

Half a ton seems light for +3 initiative.  Honestly, even +1 would be an advantage over the two tons of Communications Equipment you would otherwise need to get that.

I had thought about that but the fluff does say that it was the fastest battlefield computer the Inner Sphere. There should be some advantages to that. Also, there's the B-2000 computer on the Cyclops that was used as an example. I think it is under rated. It can coordinate an entire Regiment and maintain planet-wide and orbital communications. The Nirasaki only does that for a Battalion and it weights .5 tons. The B-2000 is also priceless as it's exceedingly rare too. Which is one of the reasons why I think there should be more costs to quirks.

The Command Computer and Battle Computer Quirks really should be on an increasing scale. The more troops the unit controls, the greater the more it costs. The Bonuses should be something like Command for a Lance should be +1, a Company +2, a Battalion +3, and a Regiment +4. The cost should increase as the bonuses increase. Command a Regiment? That's 8 points. The Battle Computer Quirk should start at 5 points for a Battalion and be at least 10-15 for a Regiment. That would reflect the value of these systems and make it harder to game quirk system. Regimental Command shouldn't come at the cost of a non-functioning machine gun you wouldn't use anyway.

Also, as far as I know, no other unit with those types of quirks has an additional 2 tons of Communications Equipment. The Nirasaki does however require an additional crewmember. I would think in many cases, trying to add in a Nirasaki would cause cramped crew conditions in a standard vehicle as well as a decrease in life support. If used by a Mech, that's adding a Command Console at 3 tons plus the computer. Unless you play around with the rules a bit.

With a tripod, or a mech with a dual cockpit, but arranged in a way where it's a normal pilot situation and a operator for the Nirasaki, will still add an additional 1 ton. That tone would still be there with a Superheavy Tripod too. You could also add a crewmember at .5 tons, and a critical slot. Depending on how you do it, that's an additional .5-3 tons of weight, plus the .5 for the Nirasaki. On larger vehicles, that's also crew quarters. I believe steerage if 5 tons. Either way, there's usually a weight increase beyond that of the Nirasaki Computer. Besides, it's not like they'd be easy to find. Even their own manufacture decided not to bring them back. There might be 12 in the IS as of 3068. The Clans might have some but I think that's an "If that works for your game" thing.

Really, I had more concerns about having the Nirasaki linking 6 units together. I thought about just 4 but there are 6 processors. I went with 6 because a heavy Battalion could have 5 companies. Add one for the Battalion Commander and that's 6. If more flaws are needed, I'm open to having ECM disrupt the entire system unlike C3i.
 

[Daryk]

ECM should absolutely disrupt it.  Crew members come with each extra ton of Communications Equipment, at least on vehicles.  At worst, that would be an extra half ton on top of the Nirasaki.  Essentially, it's extra light comms gear...

[RifleMech]

ECM should absolutely disrupt it.  Crew members come with each extra ton of Communications Equipment, at least on vehicles.  At worst, that would be an extra half ton on top of the Nirasaki.  Essentially, it's extra light comms gear...

Added ECM disruption.   

When it comes to Communications Equipment, I'm going by what I can tell from the fluff and stats. It wouldn't surprise me if Fury's had Improved Communications. Besides, there's several quirks that are free weight and crit space but would take take tonnage if trying to replicate them using equipment, and old rules. For example, there's the Cyclops' B-2000 Battle Computer. It can coordinate an entire regiment at no weight. That's 7 tons of Communications Equipment free, not including any extra crew. The Nirasaki can only coordinate a battalion and it weighs .5 tons plus the additional crewmember.  It's like using the old MaxTech Variable Range Targeting System. It also weighed .5 tons and took 1 critical slot. As a Quirk, it's free.

As for C3, the Partisan AA Tank also has C3 capabilities that are free weight/crit space. There just isn't a quirk for that. The Partisan can also be controlled remotely so there's more free weight equipment. Really, .5 tons is a lot of weight for a lost tech SLDF advanced battlefield computer. I guess it is clunky.

[idea weenie]

I'd allow the side using it to create 1 fake target for every 2 real targets on the battlefield before the game started, and only revealing which ones were the real targets after the opponent  hasset up.

I.e.:
Defender sets up 12 counters, 8 for the real Mechs, and 4 decoys.  The Defender does not reveal which is which yet.

Attacker sets up their force.

Defender assigns Mechs to the counters, and removes the extras.  So this allows the defender to allocate the Atlas to the enemy's main rush angle due to their slower speed not being an issue, while also putting a few fast Mechs in a blind area to be unobserved as they maneuver to hit the enemy's rear.

Battle begins as normal.

[RifleMech]

Interesting. That would seem to give more abilities than the fluff gives it but I suppose with the extra crewmember it could be possible. I would think that all other abilities would be lost that turn though. I would also think that the Ghosts would be only 3 hexes away instead of 6.

[idea weenie]

Interesting. That would seem to give more abilities than the fluff gives it but I suppose with the extra crewmember it could be possible. I would think that all other abilities would be lost that turn though. I would also think that the Ghosts would be only 3 hexes away instead of 6.

The main goal was to allow the owning player to re-adjust their forces based on the enemy's deployment.  I.e. instead of putting your heavy units in the center and fast units in the wings then have to redeploy when the enemy puts their entire force into a single mob that is coming from one direction, the owning player can adjust their forces as well, while the opponent can see 50% more targets and knows that the force will have its positions tailored vs their own attack.  There might still be weak spots (i.e. 3 approaches with the markers deployed  as 2-8-2), but the player with the computer can adjust them much better.

Still, I suppose there might be speed requirements limits for some of the markers.  I.e. the most flexible markers are for Assault Mechs, as any Mech can travel slower than normal (i.e. a Locust with electronics gear could be moving 3/5 and simulating an Atlas' emissions).  Some of the markers might have a minimum speed of 2/3 (Urbanmech), some might have 4/6 (Marauder), some 6/9 (Phoenix Hawk), and some 8/12 (Locust)

[RifleMech]

The main goal was to allow the owning player to re-adjust their forces based on the enemy's deployment.  I.e. instead of putting your heavy units in the center and fast units in the wings then have to redeploy when the enemy puts their entire force into a single mob that is coming from one direction, the owning player can adjust their forces as well, while the opponent can see 50% more targets and knows that the force will have its positions tailored vs their own attack.  There might still be weak spots (i.e. 3 approaches with the markers deployed  as 2-8-2), but the player with the computer can adjust them much better.

I believe being able to track enemy movements and coordinate your own is where the initiative bonus comes in. Generating Ghost Targets is more a defensive electronic warfare thing.

Still, I suppose there might be speed requirements limits for some of the markers.  I.e. the most flexible markers are for Assault Mechs, as any Mech can travel slower than normal (i.e. a Locust with electronics gear could be moving 3/5 and simulating an Atlas' emissions).  Some of the markers might have a minimum speed of 2/3 (Urbanmech), some might have 4/6 (Marauder), some 6/9 (Phoenix Hawk), and some 8/12 (Locust)

I don't know why there would be a speed limit. I'm also not sure that Ghost Targets work like that. A Locust generating an Atlas. The Atlas would be out of place so it'd be ignored. A Locust generating another Locust though, the enemy wouldn't be sure which was real.

[idea weenie]

I believe being able to track enemy movements and coordinate your own is where the initiative bonus comes in. Generating Ghost Targets is more a defensive electronic warfare thing.

These ghost signals are only generated before the battle and are removed before the first turn.  They are not ghost targets for during a battlefield game.  It allows the side with the computer to try and confuse the opponent about their deployments on a strategic setup, not battlefield engagement.

Also, how much Initiative bonus is it giving for its mass?  It may be the fastest computer ever but does that mean it is 2-3* as fast, or only 1.1* as fast?

I don't know why there would be a speed limit. I'm also not sure that Ghost Targets work like that. A Locust generating an Atlas. The Atlas would be out of place so it'd be ignored. A Locust generating another Locust though, the enemy wouldn't be sure which was real.

If your Intel section spots a unit whose EM emissions match that of an Atlas, and you also see that unit moving 5/8/0, chances are that signal is not an Atlas.  Now if you see  unit moving 5/8/3 and the EM matches that of a Shadow Hawk, then is it really a Shadow Hawk or a Stinger with EM deception going on?  The answer is to look at it directly and find out.

They is that the signals with faster movement limit what can be placed where.  So if a signal reads 7/11/6, then you cannot put a Stinger or Wasp there.  If it reads 6/9/3 then you cannot put a Locust there.  But if you have a signal reading 2/3, then it could be an Urbanmech or an Atlas.

[RifleMech]

These ghost signals are only generated before the battle and are removed before the first turn.  They are not ghost targets for during a battlefield game.  It allows the side with the computer to try and confuse the opponent about their deployments on a strategic setup, not battlefield engagement.

Also, how much Initiative bonus is it giving for its mass?  It may be the fastest computer ever but does that mean it is 2-3* as fast, or only 1.1* as fast?


If your Intel section spots a unit whose EM emissions match that of an Atlas, and you also see that unit moving 5/8/0, chances are that signal is not an Atlas.  Now if you see  unit moving 5/8/3 and the EM matches that of a Shadow Hawk, then is it really a Shadow Hawk or a Stinger with EM deception going on?  The answer is to look at it directly and find out.

They is that the signals with faster movement limit what can be placed where.  So if a signal reads 7/11/6, then you cannot put a Stinger or Wasp there.  If it reads 6/9/3 then you cannot put a Locust there.  But if you have a signal reading 2/3, then it could be an Urbanmech or an Atlas.

Yeah, that doesn't sound like something this or any other system can do.

The Battle Computer give a +2 to initiative. The Command Computer Quirk gives a +1 and they can't be combined. So Fury Tanks with that computer would probably have the +2 to initiative.

Personally, I think it should be 1 quirk that grows in scale from Lance to Regiment. That would increase the value of these systems/quirks. Not every Command unit is made to command battalions or regiments. Most are lance or company command units. Those that can should be more rare. Both the Nirasaki and the B-2000 are practically extinct and are priceless but would only give a +2 to initiative. Only any unit can have a battle computer with a +2 to initiative. That devalues those systems and what they can do. That's why I gave the Nirasaki a +3 to initiative as it coordinates a battalion. I'd give the B-2000 a +4 as it coordinates a regiment.

[Daryk]

The cost of that +2 for "any unit" is why the half ton for the +3 of the Nirasaki is overpowered.  As I said before, a +1 initiative takes TWO tons of Communications equipment (for 'mechs, and implying 2 more crew members for vehicles).  Getting to +2 takes the equivalent of SEVEN tons of Comms gear (which would be SIX tons for 'mechs and Combat Vehicles).

[RifleMech]

The cost of that +2 for "any unit" is why the half ton for the +3 of the Nirasaki is overpowered.  As I said before, a +1 initiative takes TWO tons of Communications equipment (for 'mechs, and implying 2 more crew members for vehicles).  Getting to +2 takes the equivalent of SEVEN tons of Comms gear (which would be SIX tons for 'mechs and Combat Vehicles).

Actually, that .5 tons, plus the extra crew member is why the Nirasaki is underpowered. The Cyclopes does not have 2 tons of Communications Equipment, not even the Improved Communications Quirk (It should). It sure doesn't have 7 tons of Com. Equipment, yet it's B-2000 Battle Computer takes no weight, no crits, doesn't require an extra crewmember and can control an entire regiment. And it gets the +2 to Initiative. Compared to that, the Nirasaki is clunky.

Even if the Nirasaki is over powered, and I don't think it is, but even it is, I think it should be considering how rare these systems are and what they can do. It shouldn't be that easy to get them. Units designed to control Battalions and Regiments should be more rare than those that control Lances and Companies. Units with top of the line equipment should be even more rare. If it was so easy these benefits, every company, battalion, and regiment would have a Mobile HQ. The Nirasaki wouldn't have been reserved for Royal use only. The B-2000 computers would be common and widely used.  Really the Battle Computer Quirk should have a higher initiative bonus and the cost to get them should be higher as well, as I said above.

If you think the quirk price should be higher that's okay. How's;
Lance Command: +1 Cost: 2
Company Command: +2 Cost: 4
Battalion Command: +3 Cost: 8
Regimental Command: +4 Cost: 16
Improved Communications Quirk Required: Cost 1-4 depending on size of command.

And again, Quirks don't cost money, weight, crits, or crewmembers. The Nirasaki is an actual piece of equipment that does take weight, crits, and requires a a crewmember to operate.

Also again, I like Quirks but they should have costs and availability ratings at a minimum. Trying to add in something later should take weight and crits. Considering 1 ton for cockpit, 1 for sensors, and 1 for life support, the best a lot of cockpit related quirks would only take .5-1 ton and 1-2 critical slots. That's if you're adding the equipment, or going low tech. Completely replacing shouldn't add more weight and crits. Take Multi-Trac II and Variable Range Targeting for example. If the unit came with them, they're quirks. If you're adding them, they're equipment at .5 tons and 1 crit each. The Nirasaki is the same thing.

[Daryk]

I think that's where we're talking past each other... quirks and equipment are two different things.

[RifleMech]

I think that's where we're talking past each other... quirks and equipment are two different things.

Probably. It happens.    Yes, they are and they're not. That's what frustrates me about them. Quirks don't add any weight or take crits or have any other costs other than, "Try to balance with negative quirks". Which is fine when they're built in, especially when they're advanced systems. But without costs, availability, weight, or crit space they're super easy to replace lesser systems.

A Mobile HQ uses 7 tons communications equipment which takes 1-7 crits and costs 10,000 per ton. Not including additional crew. A Cyclops B-2000 battle computer does all that for nothing. Actually, according to TRO:3050U the B-2000 can control an entire brigade so I'd say it'd be more like 15 tons of Com. Equipment, and related costs. All for free.  The Nirasaki at least weighs .5 tons and a critical slot.

And yes, I do think these systems should have a higher initiative than a run of the mil command mech because they do so much more. They should also be much more rare. That's why a Cyclops looses it's B-2000 it because just another assault mech. Because the B-2000 can't be repaired or replaced but without costs and availability, it's no problem. Actually, since rules don't impact quirks, the Cyclops could loose its sensors completely and the B-2000 wouldn't be effected.

[Maingunnery]

Probably. It happens.    Yes, they are and they're not. That's what frustrates me about them. Quirks don't add any weight or take crits or have any other costs other than, "Try to balance with negative quirks". Which is fine when they're built in, especially when they're advanced systems. But without costs, availability, weight, or crit space they're super easy to replace lesser systems.

Well they are Quirks because they do not affect the construction, it is part of the definition here. So something that adds weight and/or take crits will be judged as if it were equipment, and not as an quirk.

[RifleMech]

Well they are Quirks because they do not affect the construction, it is part of the definition here. So something that adds weight and/or take crits will be judged as if it were equipment, and not as an quirk.

That's part of the problem though. Construction covers generic items. Quirks are specific. There's very few quirks that effect monetary costs though. Replacing the sensors for the Cyclops has a set cost and turns the Cyclops into a regular assault mech. Replacing the B-2000 Battle Computer is super difficult.

Adding something extra, without completely rebuilding, should also have an an impact. Like trying to add the B--2000 to a Locust. It should result in a cramped cockpit quirk at least.

Another problem is that a lot of quirks that either are also equipment or used to be. Spotlights, Multi-Trac II, Variable Range Targeting, (Every Positive Targeting Quirk really) Laser Insulators, Directional Torso Mount, Jettisonable Weapon, Improved Communications, Improved Sensors, Fine Manipulators, Armored/Protected Actuators. I believe the Nirasaki Computer would fit in with these. It's equipment but there's also a quirk for it. (That's also going by TRO:2750 fluff. Based on the stats in TRO:3050U, it could be a Quirk now.)

If a Warhammer needs to replace it's Searchlight, how much would that cost? Would it be free or 2,000 C-Bills plus installation? Or would it cost more since it doesn't weigh .5 tons and 1 crit? Or would the replacement weigh .5 tons and 1 crit depending on availability?

[Col Toda]

I tend to use the whole of the Buffalo.  My Landing Zone  tends to have a C3 lance an Artillary Lance and a bunch of light vehicles defending it . The Master rips out 3 tons of Artemis IV and adds a Command  cockpit . So the defenders have +2 initiative and that one mech with a C3 Master and Command console can also monitor 8 remote sensors about 2 km out circling the LZ . This using far more available and cheaper means with a factory upgrade .

A remote sensor network in a city monitored by a fiber optic connected Civil Defense center with Communication gear also seems more useful . All you need is militia manpower and time to set up . So in this example 16 hardwired romote sensors could cover a city like Boston Massachusetts keeping track of all freindly and enemy movements as well as get a +2 initiative modifier And a possible Sat . Uplink .

All this system seams to be is a more expensive and lighter C3i system which also cannot monitor Remote sensors and may not be able to do Satellite uplinks ?  As C3i is too limiting for my use I do not see the attraction of using a lighter more xpensive system just as limited as C3i .

You can get approximately the same ability more than  an order of magnitude cheaper , for your Entire Army . Not just a brigade if you are lucky . The system  you described became temporary extinct because it was fielded in an attrition unit ( basically any combat vehicle in Battletech. )     VTOLs with jet boosters and a TAG laser rallyed to a locatiion directed by remote sensors suppoerted by homing Arrow IV or Copperhead Long Tom fire is just a cheaper better alternative . You will know of an incomming force about 4+ KM  out have a VTOL in position to see it with optics 1 minute later targeting artillery quickly thereafter.  You don't  use remote sensors to spot for any target smaller than a dropship. It provides enough information for a fast real spotter to get there . Negative information gets the same results if an ECM suite blocks a remote sensor transmission then the metal spikes put in trees or metal girders in a city blink out and fast VTOLs are still dispatched .

I am willing to pay Full Freight in Tonnage for the whole spectrum of utility of electronic systems.  I really do not like sacrificing utility for tonnage . I doubt I am alone in this . My perspective is you are putting an expensive piece of equipment on an attrition unit repeating the mistake that got the system shelved/lost  in the first place .