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Author Topic: IS Compact XL Engines  (Read 511 times)

Fear Factory

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IS Compact XL Engines
« on: 30 September 2022, 09:59:41 »
   Once forgotten, Compact XL engines were developed to be an improvement over XL models. They sacrifice some durability to take up less side torso space and use materials similar to those used in light and compact engines. These went on to inspire the Clan version and phased out in the Inner Sphere due to their highly difficult maintenance issues.

Rules:

   Same as the XL engine with the following exceptions: The cXL takes up 2 critical slots in the right and left torso (instead of 3) with the final 2 critical locations being assigned to the center torso.

Positives:

   'Mech can suffer losing a side torso without being destroyed.

Drawbacks:

   They cost 15% more than an XL engine.

   The engine is more fragile than the XL. When the engine suffers a critical hit from any location roll 2d6. On 9+ the engine suffers another critical hit. These checks do not stack (example: when you lose a torso location with 2 slots, if you roll 2 locations in the center torso, or if you roll hits in two or more separate locations, they do not stack/it is a single check).

   Because of how compact and fragile they are, repairs take twice as long and are more difficult. A failure with repair checks result in permanent damage. However, these engines can be swapped for normal XL engines from a 'Mech bay or factory with no penalty since the XL was made to replace them as a refit kit. The only crit locations that can be moved to accommodate them are those for armor or internal structure. The XL version must be the same rating and carry the same amount of internal single or double heat sinks, otherwise it is considered a modification and follows the rules for customizing.
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pokefan548

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #1 on: 30 September 2022, 10:06:40 »
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Sabelkatten

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #2 on: 30 September 2022, 17:30:27 »
These already exist.
The OP isn't a LFE, It's an XLFE with a different vulnerability.

I rather like the idea. Useful for light mechs.

Hellraiser

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #3 on: 30 September 2022, 17:40:02 »
So its 6 total engine slots,  just like a SFE,  but laid out differently as  2-2-2 instead of 0-6-0.

Weight would be 150% of 50% or 75% so same as LFE.

I'm not sure 15% more C-Bills is really what they would cost though.

I'm not sure I'd use it over a SFE but maybe, and it is nice the way it frees up 4 CT Slots.
Dang, this & a Compact Gyro & you could mount BIG guns in the CT.
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Daryk

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #4 on: 30 September 2022, 19:00:35 »
If you're just shifting two of the extra crits to the CT, I think increased cost alone would be enough penalty.  Honestly, that's what XL engines should have been to begin with...  8)

VanVelding

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #5 on: 30 September 2022, 20:12:36 »
So its 6 total engine slots,  just like a SFE,  but laid out differently as  2-2-2 instead of 0-6-0.
I assumed it was 2-8-2, taking the two side torso slots of an IS XL and putting them into the CT instead.

I also think cost balancing is a poor balance mechanism, not so long as folks in-universe keep pumping out XL engine 'mechs while being shy about Omnimechs 'for cost reasons.' If more players were balancing games and playing campaigns with C-Bills, it would be useful.

Putting those slots into the CT is a big, universal positive. Other possible drawbacks:
High Base Demand - Double heat for movement.
Inefficient Design - Half as many heat sinks (round down) can fit in the engine.
No Space for Details - Engine has no 'free' heat sinks.
Fragile - The 'mech needs to roll to avoid engine damage from heat and falls the same way it needs to avoid pilot damage.
EM Interference - The 'mech effectively has the EM Interference quirk, which triggers when it runs or jumps instead of when it fires a specific weapon.
Local Heat - While the 'mech's cooling system keeps overall heat low, heat by the engine is still high. If any ammo is in a location with the engine, the target number to avoid ammo explosions due to heat is 2 higher.
Control System Deficit - If the 'mech changes movement modes too quickly, it gains additional heat. When the 'mech walks, if it sprinted last turn it gains 5 heat. When the 'mech runs, if it was stationary or immobile last turn it gains 5 heat. When the 'mech sprints, if it was stationary, was immobile, or walked last turn it gains 5 heat.
Unconventional Design - The 'mech may not mount MASC, Superchargers, Coolant Pods, RISC Supercooled Myomers, TSM, or Radical Heat Sinks. An enemy weapon that causes the 'mech to gain heat cause 1 additional heat for every 3 heat they normally cause. 'Mech tasers and TSEMPs affecting the 'mech get a +2 bonus on their effect roll. 'Mech tasers used by the unit get a -2 to their feedback check. It is considered susceptible to the Centurion Weapon System.

Some of those are steep and others are complicated. But if you add tonnage, you might as well use an LFE. You can't physically add crits without defeating the purpose. Whatever in-game balancing issue mechanic has to use another mechanic: heat, equipment incompatibility, critical hits, pilot safety, etc.

One of the drawbacks above is a good starting point to address the significant advantages of halving engine weight and allowing the 'mech to survive a lost torso.
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Fear Factory

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #6 on: 01 October 2022, 11:52:18 »
The idea is simply moving 2 engine criticals to the CT from the RT and LT, as stated.

I was also thinking of weird car engines like those found on a Pontiac Fiero... ultra compact, but you can retrofit other engines into the same spot that work better.
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Hellraiser

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #7 on: 01 October 2022, 14:13:58 »
Wait, so your saying it is 10 total engine slots?

That doesn't make sense to me as XL is Double (6->12) spread OUT into ST
While Compact is Half (6->3 shrinking in existing locations.

So I was assuming you are cutting each of the 3 XL Locations in Half (rounded/averaged)
   So 3-6-3 per torso becomes 1.5-3-1.5, then shifted to be 2-2-2 so its still a reduction in each location.

If its 2-8-2 then what is the benefit over a LFE short of the 10% reduced C-Bills you posted?

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Charistoph

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #8 on: 02 October 2022, 14:23:25 »
Even a 2-4-2 would be more preferable (and reasonable), but I think it would still need to be Standard weight, at least.
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Daryk

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #9 on: 02 October 2022, 14:29:50 »
Putting slots in the side torsos is a net negative.  There should be some benefit for doing it.

Hellraiser

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #10 on: 02 October 2022, 14:58:24 »
Putting slots in the side torsos is a net negative.  There should be some benefit for doing it.
That was my thought.
Combining Compact & XL onto the same thing should be lighter over all & more spacious in the CT but still spread to STs.

The biggest negative to me would be the cost, having both an XL & Compact modifier to price would be something huge the way XXLs are.
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"I don't shoot Urbanmechs, I walk up, stomp on their foot, wait for the head to pop open & drop in a hand grenade (or Elemental)" - Joel47
Against mechs, infantry have two options: Run screaming from Godzilla, or giggle under your breath as the arrogant fools blunder into your trap. - Weirdo

Daryk

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #11 on: 02 October 2022, 15:20:13 »
And I think that would be about right.  8)

Charistoph

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #12 on: 02 October 2022, 23:48:43 »
Putting slots in the side torsos is a net negative.  There should be some benefit for doing it.

Well, if we REALLY wanted to follow the protocols for both, it would be a straight 3-3-3 across the board.  You have the IS XL Side Torsos, with the Center Torso Compact work.

Not being a fan of 3 slots in a Side Torso (who is if you can't get a TMM over 5 while Walking?), I figured a 2-4-2 would be a better balance.
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Daryk

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #13 on: 03 October 2022, 03:34:06 »
At Standard weight, there would be no benefit to doing it.  You still die if you lose the CT, and now you get two engine hits if you lose a side one.

Charistoph

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #14 on: 03 October 2022, 12:07:05 »
At Standard weight, there would be no benefit to doing it.  You still die if you lose the CT, and now you get two engine hits if you lose a side one.

Simply removing 2-3 Crits out of the CT so larger equipment can be installed there is no benefit?  It's already taking up fewer Crits than a Light Engine, so it can't match that weight without going in to Clan tech.  Meanwhile, the Compact Engine weighs in more.
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garhkal

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #15 on: 03 October 2022, 12:57:55 »
With all the downsides this has, i don't really see any benefit other than the loss of a side torso no longer criples the mech.
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Daryk

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #16 on: 03 October 2022, 18:08:16 »
You get that benefit for free with a standard engine.

Fear Factory

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #17 on: 04 October 2022, 13:48:56 »
Guys. For real. This is NOT made to be a replacement for anything, it's been replaced/phased out. Also, it is NOT compact like the compact engine, it's an XL engine that fills the Center Torso by moving a crit from the Right and Left torso to the center (2, 8, 2, instead of 3, 6, 3). It's not a light engine, it's not a 'compact engine', it's not meant to be "better" than the XL engine, it's not meant to be good.

The benefit is that you get an XL engine that can survive losing a torso.

The drawback is that it's fragile, because if you take any critical hit to the engine, you roll 2d6 to see if you take ANOTHER hit on top of the one you just took. Also cost and maintenance.

With all the downsides this has, i don't really see any benefit other than the loss of a side torso no longer criples the mech.

That's the point.
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VanVelding

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #18 on: 04 October 2022, 14:28:58 »
The drawback is that it's fragile, because if you take any critical hit to the engine, you roll 2d6 to see if you take ANOTHER hit on top of the one you just took.
That's the part I missed. I apologize for not seeing it earlier.

Seems worth testing.
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Daryk

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #19 on: 04 October 2022, 18:49:15 »
I just didn't see the point of going backward, that was all.  Sorry as well.

Fear Factory

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #20 on: 04 October 2022, 20:54:47 »
It's cool, I just wanted to clear some things up to ease the confusion.
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Charistoph

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Re: IS Compact XL Engines
« Reply #21 on: 04 October 2022, 21:17:48 »
Guys. For real. This is NOT made to be a replacement for anything, it's been replaced/phased out. Also, it is NOT compact like the compact engine, it's an XL engine that fills the Center Torso by moving a crit from the Right and Left torso to the center (2, 8, 2, instead of 3, 6, 3). It's not a light engine, it's not a 'compact engine', it's not meant to be "better" than the XL engine, it's not meant to be good.

The benefit is that you get an XL engine that can survive losing a torso.

The drawback is that it's fragile, because if you take any critical hit to the engine, you roll 2d6 to see if you take ANOTHER hit on top of the one you just took. Also cost and maintenance.

It doesn't really sound like a "compact" XL Engine then, just a "reorganized" XL Engine similar to one I proposed a while back.

My previous responses were based on trying to achieve the Compact AND XL components at the same time in response to another post.
« Last Edit: 05 October 2022, 14:07:59 by Charistoph »
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