Loitering Munitions: How would you design them?

[Grand_dm]

If you're unsure what they are here is a primer:

https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/loitering-munitions-preview-the-autonomous-future-of-warfare/

[Elmoth]

Probably as single shot weapons (lrm5 srm4, arrow...) that do not cost tonnage, but cost crit slots (unless operated by infantry) and probanly cost double their BV in terms of BV.

[FastConcentrate8]

I'd say as an artillery munition that hits a designated target rather than a designated location without the need for a TAG.

[Sabelkatten]

Robotic small support vehicle?

[idea weenie]

Arrow IV would be fairly easy. 

You fire the missile normally, marking down what turn it would arrive on the board normally, and what turn it would take if it is at max range.  On the arrival turn it is made available for TAG usage.  On the max turn if it is not used for TAG, it is removed.

I.e. assume an Arrow IV has a max flight time of 5 turns, and it is 2 turns away.  So if you launch the missile on turn 8, it will arrive on turn 10, and at the end of turn 13 it will run out of fuel and self-destruct.

However, you have someone on-sight with a TAG.  The Artillery unit fires an Arrow IV on the following turns:
Launch turn - Arrival turn - end of fuel turn
8 - 10 - 13
9 - 11 - 14
10 - 12 - 15
11 - 13 - 16

Notice on turn 13 that there are 4 Arrow IV missiles available.  If the TAG observer can paint a target, that target will not be happy.


You might add rules for fighters to destroy loitering missiles.

Robotic small support vehicle?

This could be fun.  Damage would be via the Booby trap feature?  I don't think putting in a ton of MG ammo for a 400-pt warhead would be considered 'polite'

[VanVelding]

It's an autonomous suicide drone. In Battletech, that's several tons of equipment.

But hey, cruise missile rounds are several tons of equipment.

So, take a cruise missile, dial back its damage a hunk, give it three sensitivity settings, a sensor range, a strategic area to deny an enemy, and some flak interaction rules.

Sensitivity settings could include something like:
High - anything from comm transmissions, PPCs, or maybe even fusion engines would be targeted.
Medium - The first common, advanced electronics package it sees would attract it ECM, BAP, Tag (use or targeted), C3s, etc.
Low - Only the hardest-core EM signals will be targeted. HPG pulses, command console commanding drones, 12-unit C3 network backbone, CEWS use, MagPulse warheads, Blue Field Particle Field Dampener, etc.

Given that it's now 'attacking' instead of 'artillery-ing' it would probably have an attack roll. Also, because it's more sophisticated than a standard cruise missile, it would probably cost more which...yikes.

[Lagrange]

The zeros may be of interest.  These are basically 10 ton loitering munitions.

[Vehrec]

It's an autonomous suicide drone. In Battletech, that's several tons of equipment.

But hey, cruise missile rounds are several tons of equipment.

So, take a cruise missile, dial back its damage a hunk, give it three sensitivity settings, a sensor range, a strategic area to deny an enemy, and some flak interaction rules.

Sensitivity settings could include something like:
High - anything from comm transmissions, PPCs, or maybe even fusion engines would be targeted.
Medium - The first common, advanced electronics package it sees would attract it ECM, BAP, Tag (use or targeted), C3s, etc.
Low - Only the hardest-core EM signals will be targeted. HPG pulses, command console commanding drones, 12-unit C3 network backbone, CEWS use, MagPulse warheads, Blue Field Particle Field Dampener, etc.

Given that it's now 'attacking' instead of 'artillery-ing' it would probably have an attack roll. Also, because it's more sophisticated than a standard cruise missile, it would probably cost more which...yikes.

Why does a cruise missile cost seven times as much as a Killer Whale despite only being ten tons heavier?  Though, to be fair, even if you are throwing 1 million C-bill missiles at your targets, if you are hitting those targets with a 120 rating cruise missile, then it's done it's job and probably left nothing more than some scattered parts behind.  It's the paradigm where 90% of all artillery misses that's the real problem for efficiency.

My own idea would be to shrink the loitering munitions as much as possible-infantry hate artillery already, so why not make a really small 5 point single-hex weapon that can ruin the days of any infantry or BA in the area?  Or even let the infantry get in on the act with single-point weapons that cluster up using flock-intelligence to dive onto targets upon command.  Just YEET into the air and let the swarm grow larger and larger, then see how many clusters you get out of that 28 point attack.

[AlphaMirage]

I'd go with the laser guided Mech Mortar route. Multiple 2 point hits from above

[Grand_dm]

I'd go with the laser guided Mech Mortar route. Multiple 2 point hits from above

I have decided to explore a combination of Remote Sensor Dispenser and Mech Mortar.

[Red Pins]

Oh, these are wonderful.  They fit in very well with a drone-oriented project I'm starting back up.

[VanVelding]

I have decided to explore a combination of Remote Sensor Dispenser and Mech Mortar.

Let us know how it goes.

[Grand_dm]

Let us know how it goes.

Will do. The hiccup I'm running into is resolving attacking the Loitering Munition. My original draft notes:

Loitering Munitions are easily spotted, and may be targeted and destroyed with any successful weapon attack on the target hex that delivers 1 point of damage (or more). This attack receives the standard –4 immobile target modifier, but also applies a +2 to-hit modifier to account for the munitions’ small size.

That does not jive with this:

A Loitering Munition being monitored may make a single attack within range.

Because technically you would both get to resolve your attack. So I need to find a way to make the Loitering Munition vulnerable, but able to also make its attack.

One idea is to add an arming time to it - after which shooting it down is not possible and it's immune to AMS.

[AlphaMirage]

Amusingly enough if you just use the Mech Mortar rules to resolve the attack they are in fact immune to AMS so you needn't bother. That said they should be disabled by ECM devices and maybe if they attack Artemis IV they get a bonus to hit as they follow the laser emitter

[Red Pins]

Hmm.  'HARM' seeker?  Perhaps low-detectable at range or altitude, undetectable at range, while using heat-seeking tech to track fusion engines?

Amusingly enough if you just use the Mech Mortar rules to resolve the attack they are in fact immune to AMS so you needn't bother. That said they should be disabled by ECM devices and maybe if they attack Artemis IV they get a bonus to hit as they follow the laser emitter

They would seem likely to be fixed wing, battery or cell powered, and mortar arcs might be a good estimate of their attack path in terms of fluff descriptions.

*Sorry, forgot to read up on the thread first.

[Daryk]

An interesting idea!  Following! 

[BATTLEMASTER]

I second using booby trap drones as loitering munitions.  I have a few airborne designs I want to post later that people might enjoy, especially if the exploitation of FASAnomics is involved 

[BATTLEMASTER]

I came up with several designs for booby trap-laden units, some VTOL and some aerospace.  House rules can be made so that they can be carried into combat as cargo or as external stores on aircraft assuming one ton takes up one slot.  Some larger units are big enough to take up vehicle bays on large units.  Here are the ones I deem most-efficient on a Damage per C-Bill Basis (since many do care about C-Bills and BV is ridiculously low for these units anyway!):

Code: [Select]

Loitering Missile - VTOL BGM-95

Mass: 9 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 95 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 172.8 kph
Maximum Speed: 259.2 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 279,370 C-bills

Type: Loitering Missile - VTOL
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 9
Battle Value: 47

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    1
Engine                        95 Fuel Cell            4
Cruising MP: 16
Flank MP: 24
Heat Sinks:                   1                       0
Control Equipment:                                  0.5
Lift Equipment:                                     1.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  8                     0.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   1         3     
     R/L Side               1/1       1/1   
     Rear                    1         1     
     Rotor                   1         2     


Weapons
and Ammo                                 Location    Tonnage   
Booby Trap                                 Body        1.0     
Smart Robotic Control System(Improved)     Body        1.0     



Code: [Select]

Loitering Missile - VTOL BGM-160

Mass: 15 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 160 Fuel Cell
Cruising Speed: 183.6 kph
Maximum Speed: 280.8 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 483,000 C-bills

Type: Loitering Missile - VTOL
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 15
Battle Value: 71

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  1.5
Engine                        160 Fuel Cell         7.5
Cruising MP: 17
Flank MP: 26
Heat Sinks:                   1                       0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     1.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  8                     0.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         3     
     R/L Side               2/2       1/1   
     Rear                    2         1     
     Rotor                   2         2     


Weapons
and Ammo                                 Location    Tonnage   
Booby Trap                                 Body        1.5     
Smart Robotic Control System(Improved)     Body        1.5     



Code: [Select]

Loitering Missile - VTOL BGM-75

Mass: 5 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 75 XL
Cruising Speed: 270 kph
Maximum Speed: 410.4 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: E/X-X-X-F
Cost: 291,667 C-bills

Type: Loitering Missile - VTOL
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 5
Battle Value: 47

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                  0.5
Engine                        75 XL                 1.5
Cruising MP: 25
Flank MP: 38
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  0.5
Lift Equipment:                                     0.5
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  8                     0.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   1         3     
     R/L Side               1/1       1/1   
     Rear                    1         1     
     Rotor                   1         2     


Weapons
and Ammo                                 Location    Tonnage   
Booby Trap                                 Body        0.5     
Smart Robotic Control System(Improved)     Body        1.0     



Code: [Select]

Loitering Missile - Fixed Wing BGM-220S

Mass: 20 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant:  Fusion
Armor: BAR 9
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-F
Cost: 491,400 C-bills

Type: Loitering Missile - Fixed Wing
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Tonnage: 20
Battle Value: 42

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                         Fusion                19
Safe Thrust: 11
Max Thrust: 17
Structural Integrity:         11                       
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Fuel:                         133                   2.0
Cockpit                                               2
Armor Factor (BAR 9)          9                     0.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    4     
     Wings                  2/2   
     Aft                     1     


Weapons
and Ammo                                 Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Booby Trap                                 BOD       2.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Smart Robotic Control System(Improved)     BOD       1.5      -      -    -    -    - 



Code: [Select]

Loitering Missile - VTOL BGM-360
<p>
<b>Mass: </b>20 tons<br/>

<b>Movement Type: </b>VTOL<br/>

<b>Power Plant: </b> Fuel Cell<br/>
<b>Cruising Speed: </b>194.4 kph<br/>
<b>Maximum Speed: </b>291.6 kph<br/>
<b>Armor: </b>BAR 2</b><br/>
<b>Armament:</b><br/>


<b>Communication System: </b>Unknown<br/>
<b>Targeting & Tracking System: </b>Unknown<br/>
<b>Introduction Year:</b> 3145<br/>
<b>Tech Rating/Availability:</b> F/X-X-X-F<br/>
<b>Cost:</b> 458,146 C-bills<br/>
</p>




 
Type: Loitering Missile - VTOL
Chassis Type: VTOL (Medium)
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Mass: 20 tons
Battle Value: 64

Equipment                                         Mass (tons)
Chassis/Controls                                  3.575
Engine/Trans.                                      11.5
    Cruise MP:18
Flank MP:27
Heat Sinks                    0                     0.0
Fuel                                                0.5
Armor Factor (BAR 2)          9                     0.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         4     
     R/L Side               2/2       1/1   
     Rear                    2         1     
     Rotor                   2         2     


Weapons
and Ammo              Location    Tonnage   
None

Cargo
    None

Notes:
Booby Trap(2 tons)
Smart Robotic Control System(Improved)(1.5 tons)


Code: [Select]

Loitering Missile - Fixed Wing BGM-500

Mass: 50 tons
Frame: Unknown
Power Plant:  Fuel Cell
Armor: BAR 9
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-X
Cost: 1,212,969 C-bills

Type: Loitering Missile - Fixed Wing
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Tonnage: 50
Battle Value: 40

Equipment                                          Mass
Engine                         Fuel Cell           36.5
Safe Thrust: 10
Max Thrust: 15
Structural Integrity:         10                       
Heat Sinks:                   0                       0
Fuel:                         41                    0.5
Cockpit                                               5
Armor Factor (BAR 9)          9                     0.5

                           Armor   
                           Value   
     Nose                    4     
     Wings                  2/2   
     Aft                     1     


Weapons
and Ammo                                 Location   Tonnage  Heat   SRV  MRV  LRV  ERV
Booby Trap                                 BOD       5.0      -      -    -    -    - 
Smart Robotic Control System(Improved)     BOD       3.5      -      -    -    -    - 
SV Chassis Mod                             BOD       0.0      -      -    -    -    - 



Here's for when you really want a big non-nuclear bang!

Code: [Select]

Loitering Missile - VTOL BGM-305

Mass: 19 tons
Movement Type: VTOL
Power Plant: 305 XXL
Cruising Speed: 226.8 kph
Maximum Speed: 345.6 kph
Armor: Standard
Armament:
Manufacturer: Unknown
     Primary Factory: Unknown
Communication System: Unknown
Targeting & Tracking System: Unknown
Introduction Year: 3145
Tech Rating/Availability: F/X-X-X-F
Cost: 13,004,056 C-bills

Type: Loitering Missile - VTOL
Technology Base: Inner Sphere (Advanced)
Movement Type: VTOL
Tonnage: 19
Battle Value: 87

Equipment                                          Mass
Internal Structure                                    2
Engine                        305 XXL                10
Cruising MP: 21
Flank MP: 32
Heat Sinks:                   10                      0
Control Equipment:                                  1.0
Lift Equipment:                                     2.0
Power Amplifier:                                    0.0
Armor Factor                  8                     0.5

                          Internal   Armor   
                          Structure  Value   
     Front                   2         3     
     R/L Side               2/2       1/1   
     Rear                    2         1     
     Rotor                   2         2     


Weapons
and Ammo                                 Location    Tonnage   
Booby Trap                                 Body        2.0     
Smart Robotic Control System(Improved)     Body        1.5     



[Lagrange]

...

A tricky element here is that flying booby traps must (according to the rules anyways) land to inflict damage to ground-based units as discussed here and afterwards.

[BATTLEMASTER]

A tricky element here is that flying booby traps must (according to the rules anyways) land to inflict damage to ground-based units as discussed here and afterwards.

If I understand you correctly, that means the VTOL booby traps would be most useful, being able to land in a hex that turn and blow up.  That's definitely not as easy to do with aerospace units.

[Lagrange]

If I understand you correctly, that means the VTOL booby traps would be most useful, being able to land in a hex that turn and blow up.  That's definitely not as easy to do with aerospace units.

Right.  Also a mech can hide from all flying booby traps in woods. 

The rules don't make much sense here, but perhaps that's good for balance.

[Daryk]

Does crashing count as landing?

[Sabelkatten]

If you survive the fall I figure you've "landed"?

[Daryk]

I suppose that works... 

[idea weenie]

"Any landing you can walk away from is a good-"

BOOM!

"Never mind"

[Col Toda]

Cruise missiles subtract flight time to target map from maximum flight time missile has and thats how many turns the cruise missile can loiter over the map waiting for a hex to be painted by  TAG . Cost plus 10,000 C - bills to the price of Cruise missile for the Guidence package . Not really applicable for any other ordinance as Arrow  IV would have 1 turn of loitering it just isn't worth it.  It is the difference in price per ton between Homing and Standard Arrow IV ammo . Cruise missiles are one shot items .  As it is a one shot item just  muliply  BV of the Cruise missile by 1.2 followed by gunnery modifier however many TAG is in the field as it acts as normal spotting for on board munitions. 

For Capital and Sub Capital  missiles more thought is required to be put into it but the quickest is just use TEL Guidence option .That is taking pre existing systems and just adding a more sophisticated guidance package as the existing package like standard LRMs and Standard Arrow IV permits TAG to be used as a Spotter .  The price of a more sophisticated guidance package should not be + 50 percent . An argument can be made that it is standard and free for cruise missles . As all modern cruise missiles have that capability now . 

Also a loitering munition should permit the chance to be shot down . So ADAIV at Short Range and Any LBX except 20 at long range plus an additional + 5  target modifier.  For any other weapon with anti air Fire Control Range 17 +5 movement modifier . So base 9s for regular gunner Air Defense Arrow IV . Base 13 for LB X befire Flack bringing it to 11 or Anti Air fire Control  for 9s ,  potentially same target number for Clan Large Pulse . - 1 for AES or Targeting Computer.

My take Cruise pay + 10;000 C bills for the Guidence package  : multiply BV by 1 .2 ie add (20%)  however many TAG is on the field and while it is loitering it has a chance to get shot down .Target number is equal to on board Artillary Gunnery +5 , -1 if spotter is a 2 gunner and - 2 if Spotter is effectively a 0 . gunner .  Ie a 1 gunner with Actuator Enhancement System for the TAG .