MechWarrior Second Edition Optional rule.

[victor_shaw]

So my gaming group (GM here) is getting back together after a very long hiatus so my free time will be mostly spent on campaign workups.
So I will be putting work on this project into the when I have extra time slot in my RL schedule.
As such, updates will be very infrequent.

[Daryk]

No worries!  Enjoy the face to face gaming! 

[Takiro]

Have fun! I will be hopefully gaming in January when time permits.

[Daemion]

Here is the Sheet for review.

Dude!  That's brilliant.  I don't think it would be too hard to mod standardized Mechs with that pilot block.

[Daemion]

So my gaming group (GM here) is getting back together after a very long hiatus so my free time will be mostly spent on campaign workups.
So I will be putting work on this project into the when I have extra time slot in my RL schedule.
As such, updates will be very infrequent.

This is good timing, after the fact, because I've had a question in my head the last couple of days.

Do you work up stats for every troop in your opfor?  Or do you have stock builds you fall back on, with the difference being one or two specialty skills and localized equipment in bulk?

As someone on the lazy side of GMing, I do wish they had come up with some 'stock troop' choices for soldiers.  Maybe some different levels of skill for minor variety.  Think about the encounters in DnD.  A lot of monsters are standardized when it comes to stats and abilities.  The only real difference was equipment for those beasts/enemies that could use it.

So, if you do standardize, what are the base stats you fall back on for 'standard' infantry?  What about a recruit fresh out of basic?  What about a veteran with a couple tours of duty?

And, I open this up to anyone who has done this.  I'm looking for some guidelines here.  When it comes to combat and OpFor, you really don't need a wide variety of skills for any given trooper.  A lot of it won't get used.  But, I can see some specialists with certain skills pertaining to their speciality, like a squad commander, and ordinance expert or heavy weapons specialist, maybe a tech expert for breaking into installations or keeping someone out.

So, what bog standard trooper package do you have, and what do you leave open for those minor variations?

Because, looking at the basic combat system again, it's very simple and reflects elements of BT really well, so I don't think I need to come up with a condensed version for a revised BattleTroops.  But, taking the time to map out each NPC character in a platoon seems a bit much.

(A condensed version would simply remove some of the random damage, making it quicker to track.  This could be done for 'standard' NPC combat units, though.  Mook units.)

So, any suggestions, or hard stats? 

Thanks.

[Daemion]

Oh, yeah.  What about standardized gear?  How do you role-play a faction outfitting troops or security?  What would they actually carry into an on-the-spot firefight?  I recognize that this would be subject to faction, but I don't have any of the House Liao books, and I don't dare break out the other house books I do have because of their age.  The only modern house book I have is the House Steiner faction book. (Handbook House Steiner?  Trying to recall from memory without getting up and going to my book shelf.)

So, any quick ideas here on what an infantryman's combat kit might consist of would be nice.  I think I know a basic idea would be:
Rifle
Pistol
Knife
Armor

For the heavy weapons specialist, the rifle is substituted with the heavy weapon.
Commander would probably have binocs or some other advanced tech to aid in his command. 
Comms expert has radio that can break through ambient ECM?

Would that be about right?

[Daemion]

Some minor variations I'd like some opinion on:

The stock rules have two modes of damage for the different locations.  It makes sense for unarmored damage, but some of it doesn't line up well with matching up to stock BattleTech and damage to Mechs.  (I'll explain why I'm okay with the randomized location damage below under Head Cannon - Random Hit Locations)

I'm partly wanting the damage effects to scale a bit.  So, I'm looking at 'leg damage' and wanting to apply the motive damage one sees for Tanks to leg hits.  The way a Mech takes arm actuator damage, it slowly stacks up.  I would like to see a scale of injury like that from light to disabled, instead of the two step injury system no matter how simple it is in execution.

And, I believe it can be done via hits on armor. (See Head Cannon - Armor, below.)

So, one of the things I'm looking at is two-fold:
A) Hits on 'armored locations' still take bruise damage to the Condition Monitor. 
B) The armor on a hit location provides a 'damage threshold' against which damage would force an effect.
     - The severity of the hit could be tracked by MOS with a scale of damage to follow or it could be a crit check like
     against a Mech (possibly with a modifier based on excess damage).
C)Different weapon types might have additional effects. 
     - Example: a leg hit by a ballistic weapon with a solid projectile will force a balance check if the target is standing.  Or
     impart a modifier for any actions by the target if that person has yet to act that round.

(Sorry, Victor_Shaw, I haven't been on the boards for a while, and I haven't kept up with your optional rules, so if you tackled this, just say so, and I'll go looking.)

So, thoughts on this? 


Head Cannon - Random Hit Locations
I am actually okay with the idea of randomized 'location damage' because the enemy is going to be active and the may shift at the moment you pull the trigger.  They may zig when they should have zagged, so to speak.  Arms in a firefight are generally going to be held close to the body when a trooper is holding and firing a weapon.  And, a lot can be attributed to the major joints (shoulders and hips) that can get a disabling effect without hitting down below the thigh.  The human body is a rather integrated machine, and shoulder an hip damage can be pretty light but still effect the associated limb.

So, these random shots don't have to stray very far to get the 'random' critical effect.


Head Cannon - Armor
Point One:  I've long since come to conclude that front line infantry that is meant to be out among the laser beams and missiles lobbed between armored combat units are kitted out with full-body protection.  But, I don't see it hampering their movement as is indicated by the MechWarrior Full Body Suit used by the Otomo.  And, we're not just talking flame resistant ballistic cloth, either.  Maybe a mix of that and some solid plates capable of Mech/grade protection, sort-of.  It's micro thin, like what you get with DropShip Hull armor.

But, this is extremely expensive, and only given to troops in a front line brigade, and sometimes rare even then.  Everyone else not so equipped shouldn't be out in the open.  Most of these troops are nothing more than government-funded security guards, base technicians, and artillery and transport crews.  They might be armed for the rare moment to hurt an armored unit, but more often than not are meant to face off against other infantry similarly equipped.  To be out on a field against armored units is almost certain suicide.  Or, at least, a sure ticket back home with crippling injuries.


Point Two:  I've watch a lot of Demolition Ranch and a few other videos where they test bullet protective vests.  While the armor will generally work up to its failure rating, and maybe beyond, the person behind it will still be getting hurt, if only in the form of bruising.  Even futuristic stuff rated for laser weaponry would get hot and burn the wearer if the beam is powerful enough. 

[Daemion]

Here is the Sheet for review.

Okay.  Now I have a hairbrained challenge for you: Vehicle sheet with individual crew blocks.

I've played around with vehicle crews as full-blown characters, with basic board game stats given to each member, and special pilot abilities applied to a specialty.  For instance, each gunner mans a certain set of weapons and will have the specialist for one of the weapons they're manning, if the operate more than one type.  Did this for a team under a Republic Knight for the Dark Age. 

Feasible for one or two tanks.  A team that's not much bigger than a lance/platoon.

I could see applying this with RPG stats for each crew member of a tank.  Probably shouldn't be for all vehicle crews, as I also don't imagine it's necessary for every MechWarrior in the OpFor or NPC role.

However, since I'm only familiar with the basic rules, this brings up a question from me:  Has anything done on handling vehicle crew damage when using RPG stats?  I haven't read the Companion completely through to know if that was tackled there. 

Do you have something on that already? (Again, playing catch-up, here.)

[Daemion]

To give an example, I had an SM1-Tank Destroyer in the mixed Republic Lance.  According to the sheet, it has 4 crew.  I assumed the Driver and Commander were obvious, and that the other two were gunners: one for the AC/20 Ultra, and one for the bevy of Light Machine Guns.

I cannot find the sheets with the individual stats, but I recall one of the gunners turning out to be a green gunner, rated 5.  But, because he was a gunner, he got the UAC/20 specialist trait, which gave him a -2, making him a 3 gunner when firing that specific gun.  The other gunner ended up being a modified 4 for the MGs.  The driver was decent, and I gave them a vector control ability which I think allows them to lateral shift like a quad.  And the Commander got an edge point.

So, the Tank sheet had two gunnery values. 

But, I could see that tank sheet modified with 4 character stat blocks.  Once I figure out how to handle crew damage, I think doing hero crews would be golden.

[victor_shaw]

To give an example, I had an SM1-Tank Destroyer in the mixed Republic Lance.  According to the sheet, it has 4 crew.  I assumed the Driver and Commander were obvious, and that the other two were gunners: one for the AC/20 Ultra, and one for the bevy of Light Machine Guns.

I cannot find the sheets with the individual stats, but I recall one of the gunners turning out to be a green gunner, rated 5.  But, because he was a gunner, he got the UAC/20 specialist trait, which gave him a -2, making him a 3 gunner when firing that specific gun.  The other gunner ended up being a modified 4 for the MGs.  The driver was decent, and I gave them a vector control ability which I think allows them to lateral shift like a quad.  And the Commander got an edge point.

So, the Tank sheet had two gunnery values. 

But, I could see that tank sheet modified with 4 character stat blocks.  Once I figure out how to handle crew damage, I think doing hero crews would be golden.

I will have to look at all your post and hit them one by one. Unfortunately I am back to work tomorrow and have little time during the week. (4-10 hour shifts) 

Just a heads-up, I'm running a Wrath and Glory (Warhammer 40k RPG) campaign not a Battletech one, so my answers will be what I would do or would have done in that case not what I am doing.

As for modifying the sheets, you will need some form of PDF reader with editing ability, I have the full Acrobat Reader suite. Unfortunately, I never got to any of the other Vehicle sheets before I shelfed the Project for the time being, and it takes the better part of a day or two to work out each sheet which I currently don't have.

[Daemion]

Oh yeah. I know what you mean about it taking time to mod sheets. Take your time.  That's why it's more of a hair-brained challenge. 

(Aside: When it comes to vehicle sheets, I can simply scan a blank page and do the mods in paint, of all things, then save it as a PDF. ',)

Not as convenient as a Reader program that allows editing. And, if you don't have physical copies of stock sheets like out of the Record sheets unabridged programs, printing them out can be expensive after a while, depending on how or with whom you print.  Especially in my case, where I don't have a personal printer.  Library copies are right up there at a quarter a page.)

So, yeah.  Take your time.

40k RPG, eh? Any ideas how you'd stat a space marine for MW 2nd?

[victor_shaw]

This is good timing, after the fact, because I've had a question in my head the last couple of days.

Sorry for being late to respond had some hard weeks at work lately

Do you work up stats for every troop in your opfor?  Or do you have stock builds you fall back on, with the difference being one or two specialty skills and localized equipment in bulk?

Normally I first work up the players and if its a Merc or House unit, I build it using the rules in the Field Manual: Merc then just role up the stats based on the experience level for the NPCs and use that.

As someone on the lazy side of GMing, I do wish they had come up with some 'stock troop' choices for soldiers.  Maybe some different levels of skill for minor variety.  Think about the encounters in DnD.  A lot of monsters are standardized when it comes to stats and abilities.  The only real difference was equipment for those beasts/enemies that could use it.

see above

So, if you do standardize, what are the base stats you fall back on for 'standard' infantry?  What about a recruit fresh out of basic?  What about a veteran with a couple tours of duty?

The base level stats for the chosen level (Green, Reg, Vet, etc)

And, I open this up to anyone who has done this.  I'm looking for some guidelines here.  When it comes to combat and OpFor, you really don't need a wide variety of skills for any given trooper.  A lot of it won't get used.  But, I can see some specialists with certain skills pertaining to their specialty, like a squad commander, and ordinance expert or heavy weapons specialist, maybe a tech expert for breaking into installations or keeping someone out.

Outside of unit combat I tend to only stat out NPCs when there is a need for a specialty in the adventure.

So, what bog standard trooper package do you have, and what do you leave open for those minor variations?

The Archetypes in the book work well for this.

Because, looking at the basic combat system again, it's very simple and reflects elements of BT really well, so I don't think I need to come up with a condensed version for a revised BattleTroops.  But, taking the time to map out each NPC character in a platoon seems a bit much.

Don't, its not worth the time as these NPCs tend to get popped off during i=unit combat and can be a hassle to manage even if they don't

(A condensed version would simply remove some of the random damage, making it quicker to track.  This could be done for 'standard' NPC combat units, though.  Mook units.)

Works most of the time

So, any suggestions, or hard stats? 
Thanks.

see above and your welcome.

[victor_shaw]

Oh, yeah.  What about standardized gear?  How do you role-play a faction outfitting troops or security?  What would they actually carry into an on-the-spot firefight?  I recognize that this would be subject to faction, but I don't have any of the House Liao books, and I don't dare break out the other house books I do have because of their age.  The only modern house book I have is the House Steiner faction book. (Handbook House Steiner?  Trying to recall from memory without getting up and going to my book shelf.)

So, any quick ideas here on what an infantryman's combat kit might consist of would be nice.  I think I know a basic idea would be:
Rifle
Pistol
Knife
Armor

For the heavy weapons specialist, the rifle is substituted with the heavy weapon.
Commander would probably have binocs or some other advanced tech to aid in his command. 
Comms expert has radio that can break through ambient ECM?

Would that be about right?

AToW has good kit write-ups for this.

[victor_shaw]

Head Cannon - Random Hit Locations
I am actually okay with the idea of randomized 'location damage' because the enemy is going to be active and the may shift at the moment you pull the trigger.  They may zig when they should have zagged, so to speak.  Arms in a firefight are generally going to be held close to the body when a trooper is holding and firing a weapon.  And, a lot can be attributed to the major joints (shoulders and hips) that can get a disabling effect without hitting down below the thigh.  The human body is a rather integrated machine, and shoulder an hip damage can be pretty light but still effect the associated limb.

So, these random shots don't have to stray very far to get the 'random' critical effect.



Head Cannon - Armor
Point One:  I've long since come to conclude that front line infantry that is meant to be out among the laser beams and missiles lobbed between armored combat units are kitted out with full-body protection.  But, I don't see it hampering their movement as is indicated by the MechWarrior Full Body Suit used by the Otomo.  And, we're not just talking flame resistant ballistic cloth, either.  Maybe a mix of that and some solid plates capable of Mech/grade protection, sort-of.  It's micro thin, like what you get with DropShip Hull armor.

But, this is extremely expensive, and only given to troops in a front line brigade, and sometimes rare even then.  Everyone else not so equipped shouldn't be out in the open.  Most of these troops are nothing more than government-funded security guards, base technicians, and artillery and transport crews.  They might be armed for the rare moment to hurt an armored unit, but more often than not are meant to face off against other infantry similarly equipped.  To be out on a field against armored units is almost certain suicide.  Or, at least, a sure ticket back home with crippling injuries.


Point Two:  I've watch a lot of Demolition Ranch and a few other videos where they test bullet protective vests.  While the armor will generally work up to its failure rating, and maybe beyond, the person behind it will still be getting hurt, if only in the form of bruising.  Even futuristic stuff rated for laser weaponry would get hot and burn the wearer if the beam is powerful enough.

I am going to say that I have never been a fan of randomized 'location damage' because, no matter what the enemy mech is doing the weapons shots are moving way faster then it would take for it to matter. I have addressed this before about the highly unrealistic shot speeds and targeting used in the Tabletop and RPG games, so I will not go into it further here.

As for armor. It all depends on the mechanics of the game and how macro or micro the modifiers actually are. It all comes down to how in the weeds you really want to get in the game.

[victor_shaw]

Some minor variations I'd like some opinion on:

The stock rules have two modes of damage for the different locations.  It makes sense for unarmored damage, but some of it doesn't line up well with matching up to stock BattleTech and damage to Mechs.  (I'll explain why I'm okay with the randomized location damage below under Head Cannon - Random Hit Locations)

I'm partly wanting the damage effects to scale a bit.  So, I'm looking at 'leg damage' and wanting to apply the motive damage one sees for Tanks to leg hits.  The way a Mech takes arm actuator damage, it slowly stacks up.  I would like to see a scale of injury like that from light to disabled, instead of the two step injury system no matter how simple it is in execution.

And, I believe it can be done via hits on armor. (See Head Cannon - Armor, below.)

So, one of the things I'm looking at is two-fold:
A) Hits on 'armored locations' still take bruise damage to the Condition Monitor. 
B) The armor on a hit location provides a 'damage threshold' against which damage would force an effect.
     - The severity of the hit could be tracked by MOS with a scale of damage to follow or it could be a crit check like
     against a Mech (possibly with a modifier based on excess damage).
C)Different weapon types might have additional effects. 
     - Example: a leg hit by a ballistic weapon with a solid projectile will force a balance check if the target is standing.  Or
     impart a modifier for any actions by the target if that person has yet to act that round.

(Sorry, Victor_Shaw, I haven't been on the boards for a while, and I haven't kept up with your optional rules, so if you tackled this, just say so, and I'll go looking.)

Some of this is touched on in the new Tactical Armor rules, and the totally revamped personal armor rules.

[victor_shaw]

Daemion
Just a heads up, none of the new rules are available at this time as they are all in Publisher format as one unfinished book.
If you want a PDF of a specific area of the rule set PM me and I will convert the pages in question to PDF and sent it to you when I find the time.

[Wrangler]

Having have been in a group who adapted ShadowRun 5 for the Battletech setting, I found the SR5 vehicle rules/ record sheets rather works well. They did adopt other things like Battle Armor/Power Armor as well.

[Daryk]

For standard infantry kits, don't forget the load bearing equipment!

[Daemion]

Some of this is touched on in the new Tactical Armor rules, and the totally revamped personal armor rules.

Awesome. I'll go looking.

Thanks.

[Daemion]

Daemion
Just a heads up, none of the new rules are available at this time as they are all in Publisher format as one unfinished book.
If you want a PDF of a specific area of the rule set PM me and I will convert the pages in question to PDF and sent it to you when I find the time.

Will do.

[DOC_Agren]

So my gaming group (GM here) is getting back together after a very long hiatus so my free time will be mostly spent on campaign workups.
So I will be putting work on this project into the when I have extra time slot in my RL schedule.
As such, updates will be very infrequent.

Congrads on getting the gang back together 

[Daemion]

I've figured out how to simplify stats for a BattleTroops based on this system! 

It's surprisingly simple. I figured I'd briefly share here.

The average BLD is 3.  And that is doubled to get the number of hit points per status level on the damage track.  Almost all weapons do some number of d6 in damage, maybe with a slight modifier, or not.

The solution is to divide the the hitpoints by six for the Status Track, and drop the 'd6 +/-X' from a weapon's damage value.  Yes, this makes damage much more lethal.  But, I'm looking at a BattleTroops, which isn't supposed to be friendly to the game pieces when you're trying to run platoon- to company-level infantry skirmishes.

I did make some allowances for the notion of different builds by mapping out where a solid 6 damage lands on the different status tracks, and I'll share those here.

The only little hang-up I'm wondering about is whether I should give some sort of bonus/penalty for damaages that have a '+/-X' with them.

Attached are some quick character tracks based on build. These first three are children, adolescent/elderly, and normal people builds. (1, 2, & 3)  One of them should look familiar.   

[Daemion]

Here is the range I'd expect of trained and conditioned military personnel.

[Daemion]

And these last three are the range for Elementals and other giants.

Aside: I know that BLD 9 isn't a thing in MW 2nd.  But, it filled in a theme so nicely, so I whipped it up.

Maybe could be used in on the Ogres and Ubliets world in Nebula California.

[Daryk]

"Average" Build is 4... anything below that imposes a penalty.

[Daemion]

Not according to Page 15 of my Mechwarrior2nd Edition rulebook:

Attribute Rating Table (Human)
1   Poor
2   Fair
3   Average
4   Good
5   Excellent
6   Remarkable
7+ Incredible

Edit - Elemental BLDs max at 8. Clan Pilot Phenotypes have a Max 8 Reflex Attribute. And only clan bred warriors be it elemental, pilot or mechwarrior have any other attributes that max at 7.  Bog standard humans max at 6 across the board.

So, attribute of 9 is breaking into demi-god territory.

[Daryk]

Good point... I'm thinking of AToW.  Sorry about that.

[Daemion]

I guessed as much.  It's okay. 

I've given up on AToW as a basis for a BattleTroops. The 2nd Ed system is in many ways much simpler and closely reflects an aspect of its 'parent game' of BattleTech in the form of the damage track matching the Pilot damage meter in BT.

A buddy of mine has AToW.  I tried giving it a quick overview, especially looking at combat.  That tome Rivals DnD's 5e in page count and, arguably, complexity.

And, since I'm doing this BattleTroops conversion simply for fun, I'm going with what's easiest.

[Daryk]

No argument that 2nd Ed is simpler at all... it certainly is.  3rd made no sense.  I like AToW (as should be obvious by now).  It could use some tweaks (see my sig block), but I do think it's the best we've gotten so far.

[Daemion]

And if the Devs were looking at making a BattleTroops, I imagine it would be out of AToW.  Or, at least they should if they were trying to keep things integrated. 

Hence why I'm not trying too hard to use that system.    Somebody's going to be doing that work for me.

Until then, MW 2nd is it.

Aside: It's funny to me that I see a BTrps as a potential entry point for RPG style play by cutting out all the extra specialities and skills and focusing on what's necessary for just combat.  Gateway!  Same reason I was thinking that AirMechs or even VToLs could be using Aero movement rules on the ground map as a means of getting people who use them familiar with the system as a Gateway for Aero combat.  And!  A BattleTroops doesn't even have to be made specifically for BattleTech.  The could set it up for historical combat.  Lure in the history war-gamers.  And then implement a BattleTech weapons and equipment supplement.  This would be a great way to explore BT Space Flight eras Pre-BattleMech. [Sigh][Shrug]  I guess a gaming company can do only so much.