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Author Topic: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming  (Read 523 times)

Shinkaze

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Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« on: 29 April 2021, 22:01:15 »
To speed up classic Battletech (or really to make it seem like all of the pilots finally decided to skip the recreational drugs before suiting up) what is your favorite way of doubling damage on weaponry or adding in targeting armor sections?

I read some interesting stuff on RPG.net, not sure if I can repost that link here.

I had an idea to allow weapons with ammo to fire twice per turn, maybe not for LRMs though since they seem decent already.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #1 on: 29 April 2021, 22:26:59 »
Solaris rules are a thing, TacOps adds rapid fire to standard autocannons. I would not adjust missiles due to ammo or energy due to heat but ballistics needs help so that seems reasonable. TacOps also has a rule where you can hold your fire for better shots the following turn which you could use to target a specific limb or section to disable a target faster

Greatclub

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #2 on: 29 April 2021, 22:51:13 »
everyone gets their pilots with P/Gs one better than they bought.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #3 on: 29 April 2021, 23:13:49 »
everyone gets their pilots with P/Gs one better than they bought.

With Gs one better and Ps one worse...
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dgorsman

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #4 on: 30 April 2021, 00:01:00 »
Because this will come up, sooner or later...
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theagent

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #5 on: 30 April 2021, 10:13:28 »
Solaris rules are a thing, TacOps adds rapid fire to standard autocannons. I would not adjust missiles due to ammo or energy due to heat but ballistics needs help so that seems reasonable. TacOps also has a rule where you can hold your fire for better shots the following turn which you could use to target a specific limb or section to disable a target faster

Yes, the S7 dueling rules would definitely have a major effect.  Although I think for regular tabletop play they should be adjusted:
  • Use the regular heat scale, & all weapons/equipment generate heat as per normal (thus avoiding the x4 issues)
  • I would also keep the regular Minimum/Short/Medium/Long range brackets.  If someone really wants to use the expanded +1/+2/+3/+4/+5/+6 range bracket options, basically the odd modifiers start halfway through each of the lower blocks (rounding fractions up).  Example:  standard range for the PPC is 3 Min/6 Short/12 Medium/18 Long.  Modified range brackets would be +1 4-6 hexes/+2 7-9 hexes/+3 10-12 hexes/+4 13-15 hexes/+5 16-18 hexes, Min = 3 hexes (essentially +3 @ 1 hex, +2 @ 2 hexes, +1 @ 3 hexes).
  • Items/weapons can be used/fired multiple times during a CBT turn, depending on the Delay Interval (DI):
  • Items/weapons with a DI of 3 can only be fired/used once per CBT turn.
  • Items/weapons with a DI of 2 can be fired twice on a given CBT turn, but then can only be fired once per turn for two consecutive turns (Example:  on turn 1, weapon X is fired twice.  On turns 2 & 3, weapon X can only be fired once.  On turn 4, the pilot can choose to fire weapon X twice again.).
  • Items/weapons with a DI of 1 can be fired/used twice per CBT turn.
  • Items/weapons with a DI of 0 can be fired/used four times per CBT turn.
  • Each use/firing of an item/weapon generates heat separately.  For example, the Medium Laser is listed as having a DI of 1, so it can fire twice per CBT turn.  Each time it fires it generates 3 heat, so if fired twice in a CBT round it will generate 6 heat total.
  • Note that the use/firing is just that:  the use/firing of an item/weapon.  "Double-tapping" with an Ultra AC (or using the "Rapid-Fire" option for standard ACs) is considered a single use of the weapon, so the standard rules for heat generation will apply (i.e. an Ultra AC/5 that is "double-tapped" twice during a turn generates 2 heat per "double-tap", or 4 points in total).
  • For those weapons with a DI of 1 to 3, there is an option to fire them even more often (i.e. attempting to fire a DI 3 weapon twice in a turn, or attempting to fire a DI 1 weapon 3 or 4 times in a turn).  The maximum amount of times a weapon can be fired in a turn is 4, so that's the upper limit.  For each additional attempt to fire/use a weapon/item beyond what its DI normally allows, the weapon/item will generate double the normal heat for that particular attempt, and the player rolls 2D6; on a roll of 2, the weapon misfires & suffers a critical hit, while still generating the heat.  Each additional attempt to fire/use a weapon/item increases the threshold by 1, and a separate roll.  Ballistic & missile weapons must also roll a 6+ on another 2D6 roll to avoid having the shell/volley detonate inside the weapon (essentially a 1-shot/volley ammo explosion).  Example:  player has an SRM-4, which is normally allowed to fire twice per turn, generating 6 heat.  They attempt to fire it 4 times that turn.  For the 3rd shot, the SRM-6 will generate another 6 heat (12 total so far), & needs to avoid rolling a 2 on 2D6.  For the 4th shot, it generates another 6 heat (18 total for the turn), & this time needs to avoid rolling a 2 or 3 on 2D6.  Should either of those rolls fail, the SRM-4 suffers a critical hit, destroying the launcher.  The player would also need to roll a 6+ on another 2D6 roll, or take 8 points of damage to the location from the SRM volley exploding.
  • Due to when the S7 dueling rules were printed, a lot of items currently available to the Inner Sphere (& even the Clans) were never given official S7 stats.  GM has the final say on it, but my recommendation is that a) all IS Streaks have the same DI as the Streak 2; b) since FASA 1659 (Solaris 7: The Reaches) has supplemental dueling rules for Clantech weapons, & Clan weapons seem to fire faster than their IS equivalents, I would recommend that the DI for any IS Lostech weapons not on the original list that have a Clan version listed in FASA 1659 add 1 to the DI (i.e. IS ER Medium Lasers are DI 2); c) for those weapons not on either list (i.e. VSP lasers, HAG), try to pick a DI based on an existing weapon.  Example 1:  VSP lasers are modified pulse lasers, so use the same DI as the standard pulse laser of the same size.  Example 2:  Clan Heavy Lasers are essentially doubled-up IS lasers, so their DI should be based on IS standard lasers.

Using those rules, it gives a big boost to ballistic & missile weapons, as they are able to fire much more often than energy weapons.  It really allows AC/2 designs to "bring the dakka", as AC/2s are one of the few DI 0 items (along with MGs & AMS), but even at that kind of firing rate they still won't generate a lot of heat.

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #6 on: 30 April 2021, 12:29:38 »
If you aren't dealing enough damage for your taste, why not switch to playing with more advanced/Clantech? Targeting Computer rules neatly give you that "aim for specific areas" effect you'd like as well. If you don't like the game slow, stay clear of 3025.

ActionButler

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #7 on: 30 April 2021, 14:45:45 »
I am going to follow this topic is great interest, but we do have the Fan Rules section for a reason, guys.

Now... with above out of the way... is anyone still working on stapling the Mechwarrior Destiny rules onto either CBT or Alpha Strike? It doesn’t do exactly what’s being asked here, but it does make things faster by way of reducing armor bubbles.

Just a thought...
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DevianID

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #8 on: 01 May 2021, 22:25:13 »
Didn't deathfromabove add destiny to alpha strike movement and terrain?  Worked well.

I use forced withdrawal and mission objectives in 3025, represents the noble dueling of the time when machines were sacred and passed down from generation to generation, and puts a hard limit on missions.  In a nutshell, if the mission is kill 25% of x unit before you lose 25% on a scout deployment, then if the enemy has 4 units once one dies the game is over--both sides put their arms up signifying the battle is over and they peacefully retreat.  Once the 4th succession war starts and mechs are starting to get churned out again forces start fighting to the death again--by 3050 advanced tech makes games go fast even to the final armor pip

Charistoph

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #9 on: 03 May 2021, 15:51:20 »
everyone gets their pilots with P/Gs one better than they bought.

That would help, but the accumulation of modifiers can mangle your ability to hit just as much as anything else.  It doesn't take a game change to affect those, just a willingness of others to engage.

I would like to try limiting the Gunnery modifiers to start with. 

Movement modifier is good, and unless we're willing to really refine and reduce them more, I'm not comfortable with changing them.  As it is, I was using a Jenner IIC the other night and best I could get against it was a +4.

Terrain, I almost want to go with a trinary setup, i.e. you're visible, obscured, or blocked.  If obscured it would be a +1 or +2 (haven't tested this yet, so I'm not sure if +1 will be enough).  The partial observation already does a good job of blocking the legs, so that part should be sufficient.

Now what I think would be the big stickler: Range modifiers.  Right now we're dealing with 4-5 range bands (depending on if one is using Extended rules).  What if we reduced it to 2-3?  If Short or Medium Range, no modifier, but +2 modifier if in Minimum (no accumulation) and Long Ranges, leaving +4 for Extended Range (where applicable).

In most cases, that will leave a player with with a maximum modifier of +8 if dealing with a very fast (and possibly mobile) target in cover in the Long and Minimum ranges before we take in their skill and movement.  In most cases that will drop a lot.  For a Medium we're looking closer to a +6 or +7, and it would be hard to get more than a +6 out of a mobile Heavy or Assault, and more often a +5 or less.

If that seems a lot, keep in mind that would be a maximum accumulation of modifiers from the target and how much we're looking at for the same situation now.  In a similar situation that fast jumper could be getting a modifier of +11 or more.  That's before adding the Gunnery of the shooter, the shooter's movement (which I'm hesitant to touch, at most I'd just reduce the current values by 1 so Walking is 0, Jumping is +2), and any other damage or heat modifiers to the shot.

The target of this concept was to reduce how easy it is to get above from the 7-8 range of the 2D6 roll.  The closer you can get to that target (or below), the more damage one will naturally do.  If all you're target shots are in the 10+ range (quite easy to do without things like Pulse around), it is hard for anything to do damage, regardless if it is a Machine Gun or a HAG-40.
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Daemion

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #10 on: 05 May 2021, 09:53:32 »
With Gs one better and Ps one worse...

+1

You get to have more fun with falling it it happens a little more frequently. 

Now, when we're campaigning and we have a hero character or team, they will be an exception.



To add further, we use SPAs for character pilots/crews, and Targeting Ace allows the pilot to have the Targeting Computer Aimed Shots ability.  We allow that to stack with any Weapon Specialist ability, as long as the weapon can be used in Aimed Shots.  (And, I'm talking under old BMR rules.)

One that we haven't used as much is the Called Shots rule which allows you to 'call high' or 'call low', allowing you to use the punch or kick hit-location table, but with that +3 mod.  Most of us skip it because it's about as high as using a TC's or Targeting Ace's Aimed Shot.  Call High would be for if you were trying for the head, though.  Aimed Shot won't let you target the head.


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Daemion

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #11 on: 05 May 2021, 10:11:39 »
Now what I think would be the big stickler: Range modifiers.  Right now we're dealing with 4-5 range bands (depending on if one is using Extended rules).  What if we reduced it to 2-3?  If Short or Medium Range, no modifier, but +2 modifier if in Minimum (no accumulation) and Long Ranges, leaving +4 for Extended Range (where applicable).

In most cases, that will leave a player with with a maximum modifier of +8 if dealing with a very fast (and possibly mobile) target in cover in the Long and Minimum ranges before we take in their skill and movement.  In most cases that will drop a lot.  For a Medium we're looking closer to a +6 or +7, and it would be hard to get more than a +6 out of a mobile Heavy or Assault, and more often a +5 or less.

If that seems a lot, keep in mind that would be a maximum accumulation of modifiers from the target and how much we're looking at for the same situation now.  In a similar situation that fast jumper could be getting a modifier of +11 or more.  That's before adding the Gunnery of the shooter, the shooter's movement (which I'm hesitant to touch, at most I'd just reduce the current values by 1 so Walking is 0, Jumping is +2), and any other damage or heat modifiers to the shot.

The target of this concept was to reduce how easy it is to get above from the 7-8 range of the 2D6 roll.  The closer you can get to that target (or below), the more damage one will naturally do.  If all you're target shots are in the 10+ range (quite easy to do without things like Pulse around), it is hard for anything to do damage, regardless if it is a Machine Gun or a HAG-40.

Would you be more inclined for a more gradual modifier step by range bracket?  Say medium is +1, long is +2, and anything beyond that will fail to hit the target but can still cause accidental fires (11 or 12 result on a 'missed' effect check*) or accidental wood clearings (a roll of 2 or 3 on the 'missed' effect check*). 

Or would we want to try something that drops modifiers, and goes into which table you get to roll on when determining where the shot lands?  If you're a stompy bot aestheticist, you might like this:
 - Long or further: The shot is rolled on the full body chart as normal. 
    (If you want to make things interesting, you can have Extreme and Horizon bands apply a penalty to cluster weapon rolls on the cluster table. like -1 for Extreme and -2 for LoS.)
 
- Medium: Attacker gets to call high or low and roll on the punch or kick location table.  The +3 modifier for Called Shots is ignored.

- Short:  Attacker gets to used the Aimed Shot rules for Targeting Computers but ignores the normal +3 modifier.

- Minimum ranges impart targeting modifiers as normal.

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Charistoph

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #12 on: 05 May 2021, 12:23:17 »
Would you be more inclined for a more gradual modifier step by range bracket?  Say medium is +1, long is +2, and anything beyond that will fail to hit the target but can still cause accidental fires (11 or 12 result on a 'missed' effect check*) or accidental wood clearings (a roll of 2 or 3 on the 'missed' effect check*). 

- Minimum ranges impart targeting modifiers as normal.

Such a gradual system could work, but adding up the modifiers also takes up time, and my suggestion was mostly out of expediency.

As for Minimum range, it is the most punishing to the missile systems like the LRMs with the 6 Miminum range.

Or would we want to try something that drops modifiers, and goes into which table you get to roll on when determining where the shot lands?  If you're a stompy bot aestheticist, you might like this:
 - Long or further: The shot is rolled on the full body chart as normal. 
    (If you want to make things interesting, you can have Extreme and Horizon bands apply a penalty to cluster weapon rolls on the cluster table. like -1 for Extreme and -2 for LoS.)
 
- Medium: Attacker gets to call high or low and roll on the punch or kick location table.  The +3 modifier for Called Shots is ignored.

- Short:  Attacker gets to used the Aimed Shot rules for Targeting Computers but ignores the normal +3 modifier.

I'm not entirely a fan of dropping range modifiers all together.  Being able to change what you're aiming at (such as general versus punch/kick) would make things interesting.
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Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #13 on: 05 May 2021, 14:25:15 »
I think a 1/2/3 would be good for increasing damage in the lead up, and not making short range so advantageous that it’s not foolish to engage as close as possible

Daemion

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #14 on: 06 May 2021, 12:37:51 »
I'm not entirely a fan of dropping range modifiers all together.  Being able to change what you're aiming at (such as general versus punch/kick) would make things interesting.

Something else to consider - dropping the gunnery skill entirely as the base value, and simply going with the terrain and range mods we have.  It's about the same as giving everyone a gunnery of 0.  Then, if we wanted to give further pilot improvements, it could be applied as a negative modifier to the final to-hit value.  So, the higher the gunnery, the better the shot.


Now, as to the reason I first suggested dropping the range mods altogether has a lot to do with the Aerospace rules, and how they're using the same weapons.  Assuming you're fine with the current set of Aero rules and how they integrate, then ground units should be looking at a 0 range modifier for the low altitude short range band, which for standard fighters goes out to 6 low-altitude hexes.  That happens to be 6 ground maps.

It would put ground units on the same footing as air. 

And, should you decide to run ground games at the that level, you could get more realistic engagements for anti-air, Line of Sight distances, and so-on. 

I've actually played around with the no ranged modifier effect, but not the hit-location effect.  Very interesting when you can make indirect attacks with LRMs effective by chopping out a number.     
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Charistoph

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #15 on: 06 May 2021, 14:06:02 »
Something else to consider - dropping the gunnery skill entirely as the base value, and simply going with the terrain and range mods we have.  It's about the same as giving everyone a gunnery of 0.  Then, if we wanted to give further pilot improvements, it could be applied as a negative modifier to the final to-hit value.  So, the higher the gunnery, the better the shot.

With equipment that provides negative modifiers, I'm not good with going with no base number.

If we were looking at a WMH model where you add your 2D6 roll to your Gunnery Skill, that might be a consideration, but that would mean developing a base Defensive stat for the units to begin with.

Now, as to the reason I first suggested dropping the range mods altogether has a lot to do with the Aerospace rules, and how they're using the same weapons.  Assuming you're fine with the current set of Aero rules and how they integrate, then ground units should be looking at a 0 range modifier for the low altitude short range band, which for standard fighters goes out to 6 low-altitude hexes.  That happens to be 6 ground maps.

It would put ground units on the same footing as air. 

Eh, most ground units have to deal with some factors that aero rules don't and a lot of things that aerospace rules don't.  Curvature of the earth being one of them, and general terrain being another.  Ballistic fall to the ground and beams would just wouldn't be able to deflect at a certain point.

Aero units have the capacity to go from a top-down perspective that just isn't possible from a ground perspective no matter how tall the Mech is.
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Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: Mods for doubling weapon damage or aiming
« Reply #16 on: 06 May 2021, 14:12:12 »
With equipment that provides negative modifiers, I'm not good with going with no base number.

If we were looking at a WMH model where you add your 2D6 roll to your Gunnery Skill, that might be a consideration, but that would mean developing a base Defensive stat for the units to begin with.


That seems very Destiny-ish. Gunnery Skill+2d6+/-difference in max speed versus their piloting skill+2d6

 

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