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Author Topic: Primitive Chemical Lasers  (Read 1568 times)

RifleMech

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Re: Primitive Chemical Lasers
« Reply #30 on: 27 August 2021, 21:23:00 »
No, the range bonus is so large that I find it more plausible that they sacrificed such reductions for even more range.
So got any loaders for sprayers? 
  How did you come to that?
That is called a kink, not a jam. Words have distinct meanings or else we just get useless gibberish.
Where is the weight limit for point defense weapons?
That is when used for sprayers.

Possibly. Maybe even likely. But what about all the other equipment and weapons the Clan use they haven't gotten lighter?

Sure. A pump and hose. Same for Fluid Guns and Vehicle Flamers and ER Flamers and Chemical Lasers.

You were wanting a mechanical means of removing the shell without a recoil.

Would you prefer crimped? The effect is the same. Water doesn't come out because it's jammed on the other end of the kink or crimp. In the Red Hawks case, when the turret moves beyond 60 degrees the flow of chemicals is cut off.

I'm looking at the list of weapons for Point Defense TOAU&Ep228. I don't see anything over 1.5 tons and that's the IS Laser AMS.

And Sprayers are the only weapon allowed to fire ammo from a cargo bay.


Maingunnery

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Re: Primitive Chemical Lasers
« Reply #31 on: 28 August 2021, 05:20:27 »
But what about all the other equipment and weapons the Clan use they haven't gotten lighter?
Not worth the R&D and industrial investment.

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Sure. A pump and hose. Same for Fluid Guns and Vehicle Flamers and ER Flamers and Chemical Lasers.
That is a pump, not a loader. I am asking you to cite an example of a sprayer with a loader.

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You were wanting a mechanical means of removing the shell without a recoil.
Correction, you were the one getting confused about the fact that recoil isn't required to move used casings.

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Would you prefer crimped? The effect is the same. Water doesn't come out because it's jammed on the other end of the kink or crimp. In the Red Hawks case, when the turret moves beyond 60 degrees the flow of chemicals is cut off.
The meaning of a jam is very specific (especially in BT), if something else was intended then another word would have been used. If language does not matter anymore then we just get stick in a world of confusion where actual understanding of anything has become impossible.

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I'm looking at the list of weapons for Point Defense TOAU&Ep228. I don't see anything over 1.5 tons and that's the IS Laser AMS.
So what?

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And Sprayers are the only weapon allowed to fire ammo from a cargo bay.
Sure nowadays but that doesn't matter for weapons that do not exist anymore.
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Charistoph

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Re: Primitive Chemical Lasers
« Reply #32 on: 28 August 2021, 15:51:42 »
There's running an engine and firing a weapon. Weapons, outside those previously mentioned and machine guns, require ammo in full ton lots which takes up at least 1 slot. That is not "integrated."

We're talking fuel, though.  That is just as equitable to consider.  A possible case is that additional fuel bays were generated because of the refit time of integrated fuel systems with the PCLs.

Note that I'm suggesting the possibility, not a probability at this point.

They go into space. Barracudas could be used to hit another continent. ICBMs = Capital Missiles. ICBMs go where they're programed to go. That can include straight up.

They are still designed as rocket artillery, not tracking weapons with self-guidance.  There is still a huge difference in concept.

There are no evasion protocols. They go where they're aimed. The only missiles that can be steered are tele-operated.

Prove there are no evasion protocols.

And yes, they can be steered, it's called a guidance package.  They aren't direct-fire after all as ships can do a little thing called "dodge".  To quote a movie, "best way no be hit, no be there."  MRMs and Rockets are not guided.  Are the same issues that they have included in anti-ship missles?

What evidence? Maingunnery telling us where the Red Kite has a loading mechanism? All Weapons have loading mechanisms. It's how the ammo gets from the ammobin to the weapon. And there is no casing for Chemical Lasers. There would need to be a recoil. They don't recoil.

Still dismissing.  You cannot counter it so you dismiss.  Where does it state there is no casing?

And why would there have to be a recoil?  The same system that moves the shell of chemicals in would be the same system that moves it out.  It doesn't take a mechanical engineer to understand this concept.  I've seen it used in assembly lines for years, and that was old technology when I did.

1) The extinction date given for Standard Lasers in Clan use is 2850. Not 2830. I'll guess you just misread that.

Nope, it definitely states "circa 2820", not 2830 nor 2850.  Of course, I'm looking at an older copy, so that could be why.

2) Reread the section in TM , 227, about Standard Lasers again.

What?  Where it talks about the ones in use being upgraded or swapped out so none were in use by the end of the century?

3) It says they could still be found from time to time.
As you pointed out, Wolf's Dragoons were equipped with them. So they could not be extinct.

But they weren't being produced nor utilized in standard systems.  The Dragoons were noted for using units pulled out of caches.

4) 200 years before Hanse's marriage Clan ER Lasers hadn't reached common use yet. Standard Lasers wouldn't go "Extinct" for another 20 years after that. So they were being used by the Clans while Hanse toasted as his wedding.

3026-200= 2826.  That's circa 2820 or later.  You seem to forget that the Improved laser lines were well in use by that time, even after referencing them.   With the information I have on hand, that is why I said what I said.

5) Given all the evidence to the contrary, in this case extinct doesn't mean extinct. It means, not in frontline service. It should be brought up with TPTB.

You're the one with the problem, not me.

1) You didn't say anything about the Clans there.

Funny how you "imply" things I do not say, but ignore the things I do imply because it is following a thread of thought.  Maybe I need to be more explicit as you can't seem to remember what conversation was going on.  I didn't include the Clan reference because I had already been talking about the SLDF to Clan transition in that thought process, so the implication was there, but you ignored because you forgot or are choosing to be obtuse about the issue.

2) Not all SLDF equipment was lighter than IS. UAC/5s are heavier and bulkier than Standard UAC/5s. XL Engines are not leaner. They take up more crits. Clan XL Engines are leaner than SLDF XL Engines though but you specifically said SLDF. ES lots of crits over Standard IS. Same with FF. Clan versions are "leaner" than SLDF versions. I have no idea where you're getting Small and Medium Lasers have more output.

How are UAC/5s bulkier and heavier than Standard UAC/5s?  The IS UAC/5s are bulkier and heavier than the Standard AC/5, but the Clan UAC/5 is lighter and leaner than them both.  Since it was about an SLDF to Clan transition, I don't even know what you mean about that.

XL engines are not leaner, but they are lighter.  Clan XL engines are leaner than SLDF XL engines.  Clan Endo-Steel is 7 Crit Slots vs SLDF Endo-Steel.  Clan FF armor is 7 Crit Slots and provides more protection at the same weight vs SLDF FF.

Clan ER and pulse lasers hit for more damage for ever comparable class of laser provided by the SLDF or what the IS innovated later.  The Large Laser classes and the ER PPC are both lighter, leaner and hit for more damage.

Hence for the advanced equipment the Clans had from the SLDF, they made it lighter, leaner, and/or more powerful.

Actually, Clan Arrow IV Missiles are lighter smaller and have greater range. Vehicle Tube Artillery though is unchanged. Clan Vehicle Flamers haven't changed. Fluid Guns, Sprayers, haven't changed. The Clans started making Artillery Cannons in 3030. Why aren't they lighter than IS versions? Why aren't they smaller? Why don't they have better range? 

Already addressed this several times, but you ignore the implications.

How often does Arrow IV get used among the Clans' frontline units?  Already little.  How much is tube artillery used among the Clans at all?  Vehicle Flamers aside from those forces used against the Dark Caste, especially after Elemental Armor becomes a thing?

Everything the Clans focused on for development focused on the traits of their main warriors: Mechwarrior, ASF Pilot, and Elementals.  Everything else was left the way it was.  Hell's Horses are an anomaly as they regard Vehicle Crews closer to the same level as those 3 than any other Clan, which is why they (and they alone) looked in to creating an alternative.

Clan Chemical Laser went from R&D to production in 2 years. The Beagle Active Probe was prototyped in 2560. The production version wasn't introduced until 2576. One item went into production, as is, within 2 years. The other was prototyped for 16 years and the final version was .5 tons lighter and 1 crit smaller. So no, prototyping does not always take a while.

Nor does it always take a short time.  You complain about my universality of changing things, but also ignore numerous others.

The universe is full of odd nuts. The Clans were founded by one. And everything you said about the PCL could be applied to ICEs too. Yet, the Clans are still using them. They haven't changed either. And it was the Clans using those engines that made them look a Chemical Lasers again.

Do those ICE engines blow up like an ammo bay?  There is a huge difference between taking something that you will use, and some novelty device that you won't use, but could explode.

ER Large Lasers are also 50% hotter than Standard Lasers. That's an additional 4 tons in heat sinks. Clan ER Large Lasers are lighter, by themselves, which is were their advanced metallurgy comes in. However, not everything Clan is lighter.

I suppose considering base mass is too much for your consideration, isn't it?  And it could be 2 tons in heat sinks, too, depending on what you're using.

Actually, you are presuming they can do so. Where's the Improved .5 ton Medium Laser? Surely the Clans would want .5 ton weapon that could do 5 points at 9 hexes. It'd clearly be superior to their ER Small Laser.

I think the probability of them improving it is higher than them recreating it at wrote.  That's not a demonstration of the Clan Scientist way.

Still, the Clan ER Small Laser hits as hard for cooler than a Medium Laser, if at a lower range.

I also didn't say they were. I'm saying it's the easiest solution. Why presume Primitive Chemical Lasers are massively heavier and bulkier just because they're primitive? Especially when other Primitive weapons aren't. Why must we presume that because they're Clan made that the stats we have must be lighter and smaller when it is a fact that not everything Clan is?

Why not presume they are heavier and bulkier? (I never stated "massively heavier and bulkier", that is your inclusion.)  Name a Primitive system that isn't at least one of those things.  And then consider that as laser development grew, size and mass has shrunken, as demonstrated by the Clans.  This isn't rocket science to come to this conclusion.

If TPTB were to publish stats for Primitive Chemical Lasers tomorrow with only two classes that don't match any laser we have, I'd be okay with that. If they say that weight 50% more than  Clan versions, I'd be okay with that too. Until then, I'm not going to hurt myself trying to reinvent them.

I rather doubt that on two fronts.  You're still talking about this, and the mental gymnastics you've pulled and tried to drag me in to have to be painful on some level.

And it isn't that painful or hurtful to consider that a Small PCL would be a ton before fuel storage.

Put Clan ammo in a IS weapon and the IS weapon does not get better range. Put IS ammo in a Clan weapon and it does get better range. The difference is in the weapon, not the ammo.

Yeah, but we're not talking about normal ammo here.  We're talking about a catalyst fuel system that just provides power to the weapon.  This isn't a Vehicle Flamer that casts its ignited fuel on the target or an Autocannon or Gauss Rifle which projects the damaging part of its ammo in to the target.  The fuel doesn't leave the vehicle on firing.  If it leaves the vehicle at all, it is after the firing has happened and the cycle to refresh the fuel has occurred.

You're presuming that you have to downgrade to produce the items. Which, isn't true since not everything the Clans produce is "advanced".

You're presuming that they have the equivalent techniques and materials to produce such primitive weapons in such detail.  Is it not cheaper to utilize the same optics and casing material that you're using in current weapons than go backwards and utilize systems that likely haven't been used since long before the ER Laser was first introduced?  Is it not cheaper and more effective for a production line to utilize everything your modern system has than go backwards so much?

We don't know that. All we know is that Clan Hell's Horses possibly made the first Large Chemical Lasers in almost 800 years.

And that is the only copy we have at present.  Your argument is actually supporting more than detracting what I'm saying.

And the only source for this "shell delivery system" is Sarna, which is not canon.  Give me a book and page number where it says Chemical Lasers have a "shell system". Without a canon source the "shell system" doesn't exist.

One has been given, you dismissed without properly countering it.

Which is wrong because it took 2 years to go from R&D to production.

And you dismiss the argument about the months without consideration.  Which month was R&D started?  Which month was the first prototype developed?  Which month did the first production model come off the line?

A start date of January 3057 and a production date of December 3059 means it went through 12 months of 3057, 12 months of 3058, and 12 months of 3059.  That's 36 months, which translates to 3 years.

Contrarily, a start date of December 3057 and a production date of January 3059, means it only saw 1 month of 3057 and 3059, and 12 months of 3058.  That's 14 months, which rounds off to about 1 year.

No. It requires a whole new engine.

Exactly the point I've been making.  Redesigning the Chemical Laser to go from a tank and pump to a cartridge system would require more than just remaking from a blue print.

R&D 3057, Prototype: 3059, Production: 3059.

My copy states, "Prototype and Production: 3059".  It does not list prototype and production as separate.

So? How many OMNIs mount Artillery Cannons or Fluid Guns? They are used the Athena-XR in 3068, Svartalfa Ultra ProtoMech in 3083, the Vidar heavy defense tank in 3085. the Incubus II

I will admit, I saw that the Athena-XR was in the XTRO series and didn't look up when its project started, so it would be safer to say that the Inner Sphere did not learn of them for almost 100 years.  Still, that's almost 9 years till its first known inclusion.  That amount of time could be for numerous reasons.

As for Artillery Cannons, how often do the Clans actually USE artillery of any kind on a regular basis?

So by your logic Flamers fire shells. Fluid Guns fire shells. Sprayers fire shells. The rules say Ammunition. The Fluff says Ammunition. Ammunition does not equal shells.

Nope.  That is all you.  You are the only one thinking that.  No one has stated this before you, so it is only you making this leap.

These Chemical Laser "shells" are not a round of ammunition like an autocannon, but a fuel cell to power the Chemical Laser without the high peaks available from nuclear engines.

Which there is no cannon evidence of.

Well, yeah.  I don't even know of a Laser Cannon in the game, Chemical or otherwise.

The only ammunition that requires changing the ammo delivery system is Caseless Autocannon Ammunition. Unless you're using a quirk, everything else can change between ammo types without changing the feed system.

So I can use the same feed system of a Vehicle Flamer on a Machine Gun, missile rack, Gauss Rifle, or Autocannon?

You're not reading them are you. Those sources state what they had and what they did. Do we have stats for them? No. But we do know they used Chemical Lasers to shoot down nukes.

No, you're just not reading the response properly.  We don't know what the PCL's had (mass, bulk, ammo) or their statistics (what damage they did for what heat).

Wrong. You are taking a few examples and proclaiming them as a universal must. That because one Clan thing is lighter and smaller, all Clan things must be lighter and smaller. That is completely false, and I've been saying so. I've given many examples how not everything Clan is lighter and smaller.

Not a universal must, but a higher probability than just a bespoke recreation.  Heck, they didn't even do that with the RACs, why would they not do that with the Chemical Laser?  Why would Scientists waste their time JUST recreating another person's work without trying to improve it?  That's what Laborers (and many Techs) do.

Fluid Guns and Sprayers. Name a non ammo based energy weapon that doesn't generate heat on any unit.

Fluid is energy?  That's new.  Last I heard, fluid was a state of matter, not energy, and a sprayer's intent is to put its fuel on the target.  That's not what a laser does.

I haven't ignored anything. You are ignoring the very first part of the sentence and making an occasionally needed pierce of equipment the sole reason for the project. That's the whole reason for the Chemical Lasers. A weight and economical alternative to Standard Lasers. Power Amplifiers are only occasionally a part of the weight and economic problem. Heat Sinks always are.

I'm not ignoring the first part of the sentence, you're ignoring the parenthetical part of the purpose statement.  That sentence did not include heat sinks, but it does include the power amplifiers.  You're looking at the result and assuming that it was meant as part of the purpose.

Power Amplifiers are the biggest weakness of putting them on certain Combat Vehicles.  Besides the fact that they have to be included at all, they cannot count on and ICE or Fuel Cell engine's cooling system to help lighten the heat load like it can be with a Fusion Engine.  And if a lighter heat load was all that was needed, the Standard Laser would have been sufficient in that role as it was already cooler to use than the lasers their units were normally equipped with.

Are you saying a grounded dropship can't fire Point Defense systems?

I'm saying that a dropship usually tries to NOT be on the ground when it is fighting.  It's usually a "no other choice", and so therefore not a ground unit.

Wrong question. The question should be, when did they stop making them? Answer; They haven't. Do you think we'd have Missiles now if AMS and Point Defense Weapons were a deterrent to launching missiles?

Ever wonder why LRMs and SRMs exist instead of why Thunderbolts were a thing?

And actually, "And when were the majority of ICBMs designed and built?  Before the advent of orbital chemical lasers or after?", is the right question.  Because you know that the answer to it will counter your point, you refuse to face it.

According to research, newer ICBMs like the LGM-118 Peacekeeper
have improved targeting systems that can hit pinpoint targets. Are you saying that these weapons couldn't hit a target in space? When scientists can work out precisely where and when it'll be in orbit? When they were doing all that math with paper and pencil, not the more advanced tech that Battletech had then?

I think it could hit the International Space Station which has only enough thrust to keep it orbit.  I think it would have a hard time hitting a Warship that could see it coming.  It would be even harder to hit it as that Peacekeeper is not designed around a consideration that the target may shoot back.  Cities have a hard time dodging, after all, and it releases its actual fire power like an artillery shell, not like a ship-killer missile.

I didn't say I agreed with me either. In fact I said I didn't think so. Just stating a possibility. For all we know, Primitive Chemical Lasers didn't come in classes. They could come in sizes. Like Tank Cannons. Yes, I know they're not canon or legal but they're more believable that all the wars from the late 19th century until the 2300s were fought with just 3 classes of cannon. So why not multiple sizes of Chemical Lasers?

You're being rather argumentative with yourself in this.  I was merely pointing out the difficulties and the incongruities.

Of course not. You need to gather the ingredients first. And if they had plans for one why not the others? And why wouldn't it be just as easy as a click of the fingers? We know how much chemicals are used in each shot. Why couldn't a scientist, or even someone good at math, be able to figure out going from one class to another?

If you can build a straight 4 engine, could you build a horizontal 12 with the click of the fingers?  Some people reasonably good at math also tried to just use that math when it came to increasing the size of cannons in the age of sail, and they didn't work out right because they were missing variables unknown at the time.  Some of those became overcome because of new developments, so experimentation began anew, and things improved up to the 18-incher.

You mean the Red Kite from TRO:3150? Done that.

Dismissing it, is not "done that".

And it doesn't matter if you have the book or not. I hope we can all get the books we're missing but it still doesn't change the fact that, Sarna is not canon. It's on okay reference source for Battletech, when it actually lists the source material the articles are based on. However, it should never be taken as canon, especially when the source material isn't referenced. Without that, the article isn't a good reference.

I would like to think the authors are better at research than I am, and I definitely think they are better at it than you think you are.  However, when I found out the error, I admitted it.  When someone did provide a reference, you dismissed it.  This is not how to conduct a proper discussion.
« Last Edit: 28 August 2021, 16:17:54 by Charistoph »
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RifleMech

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Re: Primitive Chemical Lasers
« Reply #33 on: 28 August 2021, 18:11:30 »
Not worth the R&D and industrial investment.
That is a pump, not a loader. I am asking you to cite an example of a sprayer with a loader.
Correction, you were the one getting confused about the fact that recoil isn't required to move used casings.
The meaning of a jam is very specific (especially in BT), if something else was intended then another word would have been used. If language does not matter anymore then we just get stick in a world of confusion where actual understanding of anything has become impossible.
So what?
Sure nowadays but that doesn't matter for weapons that do not exist anymore.


In some cases I buy that. In others...It proves my point. The Clans don't improve everything.

A loader, loads the ammo from the ammo bin into the weapon. Or are you saying that Vehicle Flamers aren't pumping lit inferno fuel out of the barrel? They fire Molotov Cocktails with every pull of the trigger? That Fluid Guns are some how spitting Balloons filled with chemicals. Because of how you decide to interpret "loader"? Would it make any difference if we called the loader, Bob or Ted?

You say they fire a shell.
I ask about the recoil.
You say they don't have to recoil. That there's mechanical means.
I give an example. I'm still waiting on an answer.
Are Fluid Guns, Sprayers, and Flamers firing shells now?

A weapon is jammed when it has ammo but won't fire.

If there isn't some kind of limit, why aren't Medium Lasers used for Point Defense? Any type of Medium Laser? Standard, Chemical, ER, Pulse, Primitive Prototype? They're all under your 3 ton laser.

And yet we have other weapons that fire "liquid" ammo, so why should I go with suddenly having shells? And if the Clan versions are so fundamentally different from what came before, how'd they get to production so fast?


Maingunnery

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Re: Primitive Chemical Lasers
« Reply #34 on: 28 August 2021, 19:30:44 »
In some cases I buy that. In others...It proves my point.
Not really, it is still has tech rating E, thus technology and materials that are centuries more advanced than any possible PCL. If they didn't change anything it would be tech rating C.

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A loader, loads the ammo from the ammo bin into the weapon. Or are you saying that Vehicle Flamers aren't pumping lit inferno fuel out of the barrel? They fire Molotov Cocktails with every pull of the trigger? That Fluid Guns are some how spitting Balloons filled with chemicals. Because of how you decide to interpret "loader"? Would it make any difference if we called the loader, Bob or Ted?

You say they fire a shell.
I ask about the recoil.
You say they don't have to recoil. That there's mechanical means.
I give an example. I'm still waiting on an answer.
Are Fluid Guns, Sprayers, and Flamers firing shells now?
I can see that we need to go back to the basics. A loader moves physical objects while a pump moves liquids.
Also while the sarna article is quite clear with how the proposed system would work, I will reiterate: The loader takes a shell from the ammo bin and places into the chemical laser, the shell in question consists out of the shell casing that is filled with the necessary chemicals. After the chemicals have been used up the shell casing will be empty, then the loader can replace the empty casing with a new shell.

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A weapon is jammed when it has ammo but won't fire.
By that definition I can just cut some vital wires in a weapon to make it jammed, however that isn't really jammed but disabled. This just shows that excessively broadening a definition makes it worthless, so please use proper definitions whenever possible.

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If there isn't some kind of limit, why aren't Medium Lasers used for Point Defense? Any type of Medium Laser? Standard, Chemical, ER, Pulse, Primitive Prototype? They're all under your 3 ton laser.
Why are you assuming that weight is the limiting factor? 

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And if the Clan versions are so fundamentally different from what came before, how'd they get to production so fast?
It is Tech E, not Tech F, so they didn't put maximum effort into it. Heck I would not be surprised if they used a lot on-the-shelf components for them to speed up development, and in that context using a loader would make even more sense.


ps. I am still waiting for you to "cite an example of a sprayer with a loader".
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RifleMech

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Re: Primitive Chemical Lasers
« Reply #35 on: 28 August 2021, 23:22:33 »

They are still designed as rocket artillery, not tracking weapons with self-guidance.  There is still a huge difference in concept.

Prove there are no evasion protocols.

And yes, they can be steered, it's called a guidance package.  They aren't direct-fire after all as ships can do a little thing called "dodge".  To quote a movie, "best way no be hit, no be there."  MRMs and Rockets are not guided.  Are the same issues that they have included in anti-ship missles?

Yes, Rockets get a +1 to strike. Missiles, depending on ammo, don't.

I don't have to because missiles don't evade. This isn't the Honorverse where Missiles dodge AMS systems. They go where they're aimed, sometimes with help, and they either hit or they miss. They do not evade. 

The only missiles that come close to what you're wanting are Tele-operated.


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Still dismissing.  You cannot counter it so you dismiss.  Where does it state there is no casing?

And why would there have to be a recoil?  The same system that moves the shell of chemicals in would be the same system that moves it out.  It doesn't take a mechanical engineer to understand this concept.  I've seen it used in assembly lines for years, and that was old technology when I did.

Where does it state there is a casing? Besides Sarna? His argument is entirely on Loading Mechanism, which is anything that loads ammo from the bin into the weapon. It could be some mechanical thing, a pump, or a guy named Sue.


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Nope, it definitely states "circa 2820", not 2830 nor 2850.  Of course, I'm looking at an older copy, so that could be why.

What?  Where it talks about the ones in use being upgraded or swapped out so none were in use by the end of the century?

But they weren't being produced nor utilized in standard systems.  The Dragoons were noted for using units pulled out of caches.

Yeah. Newer book says 2850.

Read it again. It says there were so many in stores that they could still be found.

Exactly. And the rules for Availability and Introduction and Extinction Dates give the old SLDF equipment an Availability Rating of F Unique. (TMp286-288)  (I am thinking of asking for clarification on that. Six+ Regiments, with spares for training and two resupply runs doesn't seem very Unique to me.)


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3026-200= 2826.  That's circa 2820 or later.  You seem to forget that the Improved laser lines were well in use by that time, even after referencing them.   With the information I have on hand, that is why I said what I said.

You're the one with the problem, not me.

You said that they were out of use 200 years before Hanse's wedding. That is obviously false since they didn't leave service until 2850. The retcon for Improved Large Lasers give them an "extinction" date of 2830. So they were still in service 200 years before Hanses wedding too.

Various fluff, the Wolf's Dragoons, and the Rules for Availability and Intro and Extinction say otherwise.


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Funny how you "imply" things I do not say, but ignore the things I do imply because it is following a thread of thought.  Maybe I need to be more explicit as you can't seem to remember what conversation was going on.  I didn't include the Clan reference because I had already been talking about the SLDF to Clan transition in that thought process, so the implication was there, but you ignored because you forgot or are choosing to be obtuse about the issue.

If you talk about SLDF improving things, it is only natural to think that you are talking about the SLDF. Not the Clans.


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How are UAC/5s bulkier and heavier than Standard UAC/5s?  The IS UAC/5s are bulkier and heavier than the Standard AC/5, but the Clan UAC/5 is lighter and leaner than them both.  Since it was about an SLDF to Clan transition, I don't even know what you mean about that.

Apologies. Typo. That should read Standard AC/5s and as you know the UAC/5 is heavier and bulkier than the Standard AC/5 The SLDF didn't make it lighter or leaner. Which is what you were saying with SLDF made equipment lighter and leaner than IS equipment.


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XL engines are not leaner, but they are lighter.  Clan XL engines are leaner than SLDF XL engines.  Clan Endo-Steel is 7 Crit Slots vs SLDF Endo-Steel.  Clan FF armor is 7 Crit Slots and provides more protection at the same weight vs SLDF FF.

But XL Engines are not both lighter and leaner. Not even the Clan versions are. Although they are leaner than IS versions.


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Clan ER and pulse lasers hit for more damage for ever comparable class of laser provided by the SLDF or what the IS innovated later.  The Large Laser classes and the ER PPC are both lighter, leaner and hit for more damage.

Hence for the advanced equipment the Clans had from the SLDF, they made it lighter, leaner, and/or more powerful.

So?  Where's the .5 ton Medium Laser? The .25 ton Small Laser?
The Improved Large Laser and the Improved PPC are 1 ton lighter and 1 crit smaller but their performance is the same. You're also moving the goal post.


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Already addressed this several times, but you ignore the implications.

How often does Arrow IV get used among the Clans' frontline units?  Already little.  How much is tube artillery used among the Clans at all?  Vehicle Flamers aside from those forces used against the Dark Caste, especially after Elemental Armor becomes a thing?

Everything the Clans focused on for development focused on the traits of their main warriors: Mechwarrior, ASF Pilot, and Elementals.  Everything else was left the way it was.  Hell's Horses are an anomaly as they regard Vehicle Crews closer to the same level as those 3 than any other Clan, which is why they (and they alone) looked in to creating an alternative.

No. You keep ignoring things. Why upgrade a weapon the Clans think so little of? Elementals were introduced long after Clan Tech was. So why weren't Flamers improved? Elemental's don't like flamers anyway, so why not improve them? Or the Fluid Gun? Or the Sprayer? Why aren't their Artillery Cannons lighter than IS versions?  They have all that new lighter metallurgy.  Why don't they have 2 ton Cockpits without any penalties?  Why aren't their standard engines lighter? Their Standard Armor? Not everything is upgraded.

And if weapons are for their "Main" Warriors, who are Chemical Laser for? Frontline Troops? Secondline? Garrison Clusters?


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Nor does it always take a short time.  You complain about my universality of changing things, but also ignore numerous others.

I just pointed out that Beagle Active Probes were in their Prototype form for 16 years. What am I ignoring?

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Do those ICE engines blow up like an ammo bay?  There is a huge difference between taking something that you will use, and some novelty device that you won't use, but could explode.

Actually, for Mechs with ICEs you roll 2D6 to see if they blow up. Vehicle blow up when the fuel tank is hit. It's on their critical hit chart. If they have a fusion engine its an engine hit.


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I suppose considering base mass is too much for your consideration, isn't it?  And it could be 2 tons in heat sinks, too, depending on what you're using.

For a vehicle? Sorry. Energy Weapons require heat sinks so you've got to figure in everything. To be fair though you also have to include a ton of ammo for ballistics. And vehicles can't use DHS. So still 4 tons.

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I think the probability of them improving it is higher than them recreating it at wrote.  That's not a demonstration of the Clan Scientist way.

I don't think so. It's a lot easier to reproduce using existing specs than to design from scratch. Why reinvent something when you've got the plans right there? And why go through all that trouble when what you don't know if what you're experimenting with will do the job? Isn't it more likely that scientists found references to Chemical Lasers, dug up plans for them and build some to test out? And then after the tests, showed their Khan asking, "Are you wanting something like this?" And the Khan saying, "Yes. How soon can you start manufacturing them?"


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Still, the Clan ER Small Laser hits as hard for cooler than a Medium Laser, if at a lower range.

Why have an ER Small Laser when you can have an Improved Medium Laser that does the same damage, at greater range, for the same weight and crits?


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Why not presume they are heavier and bulkier? (I never stated "massively heavier and bulkier", that is your inclusion.)  Name a Primitive system that isn't at least one of those things.  And then consider that as laser development grew, size and mass has shrunken, as demonstrated by the Clans.  This isn't rocket science to come to this conclusion.

Because so much isn't.
Say something should be more massive gives a different connotation that it should be heavier.
How do we know that Chemical Lasers are Primitive?
How many more items do I need to list? And why should I go through the trouble when you will just ignore it? Why only list Primitive items? Why not more modern ones? Wait. I've done that too.


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I rather doubt that on two fronts.  You're still talking about this, and the mental gymnastics you've pulled and tried to drag me in to have to be painful on some level.

And it isn't that painful or hurtful to consider that a Small PCL would be a ton before fuel storage.

I'm not the one trying to reinvent the wheel.

A 1 ton small chemical laser? Maybe but that depends on what the weight in crease does to the other classes.


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Yeah, but we're not talking about normal ammo here.  We're talking about a catalyst fuel system that just provides power to the weapon.  This isn't a Vehicle Flamer that casts its ignited fuel on the target or an Autocannon or Gauss Rifle which projects the damaging part of its ammo in to the target.  The fuel doesn't leave the vehicle on firing.  If it leaves the vehicle at all, it is after the firing has happened and the cycle to refresh the fuel has occurred.

We're talking chemicals. The laser contains the combustion chamber and focusing equipment and what all needed to turn the combustion into a laser beam. Chemicals combust, move onto the next part of the weapon until they come out as a laser beam.  Putting "Shells" in adds an unnecessary step. Multiple steps. You have to open the shell. You have to remove the shell. You have to dispose of the shell. It's all unnecessary. Plus all equipment that adds unnecessary weight.  You've gone from pump that's on/off with a pull of the trigger to a heavy complicated loading and ejecting system. And Clan tech is supposed to be lighter.



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You're presuming that they have the equivalent techniques and materials to produce such primitive weapons in such detail.  Is it not cheaper to utilize the same optics and casing material that you're using in current weapons than go backwards and utilize systems that likely haven't been used since long before the ER Laser was first introduced?  Is it not cheaper and more effective for a production line to utilize everything your modern system has than go backwards so much?

Why wouldn't they when so much of Clan equipment isn't upgraded? You're also presuming the two different weapons systems have compatible components. If the Clans could do that, why don't we have Ultra LBX Autocannons that can fire all the munition types?


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And that is the only copy we have at present.  Your argument is actually supporting more than detracting what I'm saying.

One has been given, you dismissed without properly countering it.

Nope. I'm saying they built a weapon after looking consulting the archives. You're saying they completely re-invented it. That isn't going from "Primitive" to "Production" That's going from Standard AC to UAC.

I have countered it. You ignored it.



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And you dismiss the argument about the months without consideration.  Which month was R&D started?  Which month was the first prototype developed?  Which month did the first production model come off the line?

A start date of January 3057 and a production date of December 3059 means it went through 12 months of 3057, 12 months of 3058, and 12 months of 3059.  That's 36 months, which translates to 3 years.

Contrarily, a start date of December 3057 and a production date of January 3059, means it only saw 1 month of 3057 and 3059, and 12 months of 3058.  That's 14 months, which rounds off to about 1 year.

No I haven't. You keep insisting it took so long just to reach prototyping. I'm saying it was in production by then.


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Exactly the point I've been making.  Redesigning the Chemical Laser to go from a tank and pump to a cartridge system would require more than just remaking from a blue print.

There is no cartridge system. If it there were, it would take longer than 3 years for the R&D alone.

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My copy states, "Prototype and Production: 3059".  It does not list prototype and production as separate.

Prototyping and production occurred within the same year.


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I will admit, I saw that the Athena-XR was in the XTRO series and didn't look up when its project started, so it would be safer to say that the Inner Sphere did not learn of them for almost 100 years.  Still, that's almost 9 years till its first known inclusion.  That amount of time could be for numerous reasons.

What?  Clan Hell's Horses have been a part of the Inner Sphere since 3070. TacOps was published in universe in 3075. The Chemical Lasers have been around a long time. Just because they're not included in a TRO doesn't mean they're not being used. A lot of equipment isn't in a TRO.

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As for Artillery Cannons, how often do the Clans actually USE artillery of any kind on a regular basis?

They're short range area effect weapons. How often do the Clans go up against pesky infantry?


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Nope.  That is all you.  You are the only one thinking that.  No one has stated this before you, so it is only you making this leap.

These Chemical Laser "shells" are not a round of ammunition like an autocannon, but a fuel cell to power the Chemical Laser without the high peaks available from nuclear engines.

What?  You're argument has been that they are shells. Now they're not?  And how is a "fuel cell" ammo bin any different from that used by a Flamer, Fluid Gun or Sprayer?


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Well, yeah.  I don't even know of a Laser Cannon in the game, Chemical or otherwise.

So I can use the same feed system of a Vehicle Flamer on a Machine Gun, missile rack, Gauss Rifle, or Autocannon?

We have lots of Laser Cannons. All kinds of Laser Cannons. They just don't fire shells.

What was that word you accused me of? You said an ammo feed system wouldn't change with the ammo?  An AC/5 can fire all ammo types without changing it's ammo feed system unless it caseless ammo is used. Then it's caseless only. You also talked about optics which is the weapon. Not the ammo.

I'm also pretty sure the feed system for one weapon system gets swapped out with the weapon, unless it's the same weapon. Ammo bins though...probably simple enough to change them that the rules don't bother with it. And in some cases, just hose them out and reload.



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No, you're just not reading the response properly.  We don't know what the PCL's had (mass, bulk, ammo) or their statistics (what damage they did for what heat).

I've been reading them for a long time. I've also said all that except the ammo. The ammo could be hydrogen fluoride or, deuterium fluoride, or deuterium fluoride–carbon dioxide or something else. For all we know each type was used. We don't know. We do know that they were Chemical Lasers. The Source Material though say so.


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Not a universal must, but a higher probability than just a bespoke recreation.  Heck, they didn't even do that with the RACs, why would they not do that with the Chemical Laser?  Why would Scientists waste their time JUST recreating another person's work without trying to improve it?  That's what Laborers (and many Techs) do.

Because they don't know if that's what their Khan is looking for and they don't want to waste the time or resources reinventing something? 


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Fluid is energy?  That's new.  Last I heard, fluid was a state of matter, not energy, and a sprayer's intent is to put its fuel on the target.  That's not what a laser does.

You said outside the Vehicle Flamer. I named.


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I'm not ignoring the first part of the sentence, you're ignoring the parenthetical part of the purpose statement.  That sentence did not include heat sinks, but it does include the power amplifiers.  You're looking at the result and assuming that it was meant as part of the purpose.

Power Amplifiers are the biggest weakness of putting them on certain Combat Vehicles.  Besides the fact that they have to be included at all, they cannot count on and ICE or Fuel Cell engine's cooling system to help lighten the heat load like it can be with a Fusion Engine.  And if a lighter heat load was all that was needed, the Standard Laser would have been sufficient in that role as it was already cooler to use than the lasers their units were normally equipped with.

Wrong. So wrong. Power Amplifiers are only needed with some engine types. Heat Sinks are required with all engine types. A Combat Vehicle Fusion Engine's helps with heat load because it comes with 10 heat sinks. Go over that and it's an additional ton and 2,000 bills, each.

Which costs and which weighs more for a Clan ER Large Laser on an ICE Tank.
1 x Power Amplifier = 10,000 bills  .5 tons
12 x Heat Sinks = 24,000 bills 12 tons

On a Fusion Tank
0 x Power Amplifier = 0 bills 0 tons.
2 x Heat Sinks = 4,000 bill 2 tons.

For a Standard Large Laser on an ICE Tank
1 x Power Amplifier = 10,000 bills  .5 tons
8 x Heat Sinks = 16,000 bills 8 tons

There's no additional cost or weight for a Fusion Tank.

In three out of the four cases the cost and weight of the Heat Sinks were greater than that of the Power Amplifier. Power Amplifiers aren't the biggest problem. It's the Heat Sinks. 




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I'm saying that a dropship usually tries to NOT be on the ground when it is fighting.  It's usually a "no other choice", and so therefore not a ground unit.

Ever wonder why LRMs and SRMs exist instead of why Thunderbolts were a thing?

And what does that have to do with Dropships using Point Defense Systems?

No.




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And actually, "And when were the majority of ICBMs designed and built?  Before the advent of orbital chemical lasers or after?", is the right question.  Because you know that the answer to it will counter your point, you refuse to face it.

ICBMs are still being made. They're called Barracudas, Krakens, White Sharks, and Killer Whales. They wouldn't be made if Point Defense were an issue. The Phalanx CIWS was introduced in 1978. It hasn't stopped missiles from being used. Why would Chemical Lasers?



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I think it could hit the International Space Station which has only enough thrust to keep it orbit.  I think it would have a hard time hitting a Warship that could see it coming.  It would be even harder to hit it as that Peacekeeper is not designed around a consideration that the target may shoot back.  Cities have a hard time dodging, after all, and it releases its actual fire power like an artillery shell, not like a ship-killer missile.

So? All that means is moving targets are harder to hit. Not impossible to hit.


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You're being rather argumentative with yourself in this.  I was merely pointing out the difficulties and the incongruities.

And I'm just point out options. Options that make more sense then reinventing the wheel for a non-existent type of weapon to shoot at other weapons with non-existent abilities.

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If you can build a straight 4 engine, could you build a horizontal 12 with the click of the fingers?  Some people reasonably good at math also tried to just use that math when it came to increasing the size of cannons in the age of sail, and they didn't work out right because they were missing variables unknown at the time.  Some of those became overcome because of new developments, so experimentation began anew, and things improved up to the 18-incher.

We're not talking building a straight 4 or a horizontal 12 or a V8 or a Rotating 5. We're talking fuel/ammo consumption. We know that X uses 1. We know that Y uses 2. We do the math and adjust.

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Dismissing it, is not "done that".

I did. Then I did above. Read again.

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I would like to think the authors are better at research than I am, and I definitely think they are better at it than you think you are.  However, when I found out the error, I admitted it.  When someone did provide a reference, you dismissed it.  This is not how to conduct a proper discussion.

I have admitted when I'm wrong and your references are out dated books - Which can be forgiven, providing one acknowledges that the book are outdated and doesn't ignore when new information is given. - and Sarna. Which is not canon. The articles for Chemical Lasers aren't even a good reference because it sites no source material. I've asked you for canon references, multiple times. Something that should be given in a proper discussion and you have refused every time. The only canon reference came from someone else and that was solely about the loading and feed system. Which could be anything. I even countered that with an example of a Large Laser having the same problem. You ignored it. You ignore and dismiss when given research, canon sources, and then add insults. I see no further point in trying to have a discussion with you. I'm done.


RifleMech

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Re: Primitive Chemical Lasers
« Reply #36 on: 29 August 2021, 00:54:01 »
Not really, it is still has tech rating E, thus technology and materials that are centuries more advanced than any possible PCL. If they didn't change anything it would be tech rating C.
I can see that we need to go back to the basics. A loader moves physical objects while a pump moves liquids.
Also while the sarna article is quite clear with how the proposed system would work, I will reiterate: The loader takes a shell from the ammo bin and places into the chemical laser, the shell in question consists out of the shell casing that is filled with the necessary chemicals. After the chemicals have been used up the shell casing will be empty, then the loader can replace the empty casing with a new shell.
By that definition I can just cut some vital wires in a weapon to make it jammed, however that isn't really jammed but disabled. This just shows that excessively broadening a definition makes it worthless, so please use proper definitions whenever possible.
Why are you assuming that weight is the limiting factor? 
It is Tech E, not Tech F, so they didn't put maximum effort into it. Heck I would not be surprised if they used a lot on-the-shelf components for them to speed up development, and in that context using a loader would make even more sense.


ps. I am still waiting for you to "cite an example of a sprayer with a loader".


Not really. The Tech Ratings for Early Spaceflight range from B-E.  There's even Pre-Spaceflight items with Tech Ratings of C.

Sarna is not canon. Please stop using it to try to convince me. Want to convince me? Show me in a canon source it says that Chemical Lasers are half autocannon. And no. Loader doesn't cut it. A loader is anything that gets the ammo from the bin to the weapon.

If there's ammo and the weapon won't fire, the weapon is jammed. If there's ammo and the weapon won't fire, the weapon is disabled. Does it matter which word is used? Either way the weapon won't fire.

It isn't. Small is the biggest class of laser allowed for point defense. However, I don't see any weapons larger than a ton either. Maybe the old chemical lasers operate differently? Until they're published though, I'm going to go by what else is comparable.

Having to completely design an entire weapon system from scratch mating energy and ballistic with an all new feed system and ammo type does not strike me as not putting in maximum effort. Especially not with how fast they went from R&D to production. If it were that easy, why didn't the Houses produce the old Chemical Lasers during the Succession Wars? Or keep using them when Standard Lasers were introduced?

I did. Or are you wanting Make and Model number?

Maingunnery

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Re: Primitive Chemical Lasers
« Reply #37 on: 29 August 2021, 05:57:33 »
Not really. The Tech Ratings for Early Spaceflight range from B-E.
Well do you have an example of equipment from the same period as the PCL that has Tech rating E? 

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Sarna is not canon. Please stop using it to try to convince me.
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The odd thing is that the article describes everything quite well, very easy to understand.

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And no. Loader doesn't cut it. A loader is anything that gets the ammo from the bin to the weapon.

If there's ammo and the weapon won't fire, the weapon is jammed. If there's ammo and the weapon won't fire, the weapon is disabled. Does it matter which word is used? Either way the weapon won't fire. 
Both loader and jammed have specific meanings, I will not accept muddling of the terms. You would not accept such things yourself if the person doing that is your doctor or car mechanic.

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It isn't. Small is the biggest class of laser allowed for point defense.
An 3 tons PSL is still small class, so no problem. Indeed weight is an non-issue as the medium laser is lighter then a IS Laser-AMS.

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Having to completely design an entire weapon system from scratch mating energy and ballistic with an all new feed system and ammo type does not strike me as not putting in maximum effort. Especially not with how fast they went from R&D to production.
Reusing an existing loading system in order to speed up development and make the ammunition easier to handle is a good quick fix.

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If it were that easy, why didn't the Houses produce the old Chemical Lasers during the Succession Wars?
Because PCL should be such absolute garbage that the Houses would not even contemplate it.

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I did.
You have yet to show anything in BT text that supports using specific terms such as loader or jammed in connection to pump and hose.
Herb: "Well, now I guess we'll HAVE to print it. Sounds almost like the apocalypse I've been working for...."

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Charistoph

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Re: Primitive Chemical Lasers
« Reply #38 on: 30 August 2021, 16:06:55 »
I don't have to because missiles don't evade. This isn't the Honorverse where Missiles dodge AMS systems. They go where they're aimed, sometimes with help, and they either hit or they miss. They do not evade. 

Again.  PROVE it.

The only missiles that come close to what you're wanting are Tele-operated.

Not true.  A heat-seeking missile is not tele-operated.  Many radar-guided missiles utilize internal radar to operate their tracking.  Laser-guided munitions are not technically tele-operated.

ICBMs are given a projected course and then launched.  Some of the newer ones probably utilize GPS and can have their course updated while in flight, but that's not the same as the drone-like tele-operated missile you keep bringing up.

Where does it state there is a casing? Besides Sarna? His argument is entirely on Loading Mechanism, which is anything that loads ammo from the bin into the weapon. It could be some mechanical thing, a pump, or a guy named Sue.

Sue would be dead in short order due to the toxicity of the chemicals.  That is wasteful.  Still being dismissive.

Yeah. Newer book says 2850.

I'll have to double check it then.

Read it again. It says there were so many in stores that they could still be found.

I'm not the one calling them extinct, remember?  That is the CANON source calling them that.

Exactly. And the rules for Availability and Introduction and Extinction Dates give the old SLDF equipment an Availability Rating of F Unique. (TMp286-288)  (I am thinking of asking for clarification on that. Six+ Regiments, with spares for training and two resupply runs doesn't seem very Unique to me.)

It would be if literally no one had used them in a Trial for 150-200 years.

You said that they were out of use 200 years before Hanse's wedding. That is obviously false since they didn't leave service until 2850. The retcon for Improved Large Lasers give them an "extinction" date of 2830. So they were still in service 200 years before Hanses wedding too.

Ah, still whining about that.  You can't accept something so you drill in to it obnoxiously.

If you talk about SLDF improving things, it is only natural to think that you are talking about the SLDF. Not the Clans.

Except I didn't say anything about the SLDF improving things, I said they (meaning the Clans) improved on the SLDF gear they brought with them, then cited examples.  You then went off on standard equipment to strawman.

Apologies. Typo. That should read Standard AC/5s and as you know the UAC/5 is heavier and bulkier than the Standard AC/5 The SLDF didn't make it lighter or leaner. Which is what you were saying with SLDF made equipment lighter and leaner than IS equipment.

No, I corrected you and you still go off on it.  I was saying that the Clans improved the advanced SLDF they had.  I even used examples such as the ER Large Laser, but you somehow thought I was talking about the Standard Large Laser, and you still continue in that vein of improper paradigm.

But XL Engines are not both lighter and leaner. Not even the Clan versions are. Although they are leaner than IS versions.

And I was only referencing the XL engines.  You inserted the standard engines.  And haven't rebutted.

So?  Where's the .5 ton Medium Laser? The .25 ton Small Laser?
The Improved Large Laser and the Improved PPC are 1 ton lighter and 1 crit smaller but their performance is the same. You're also moving the goal post.

Nope.  I stated "and/or".  Do you understand what that means?  It means that it could be any of those options or all of them, depending on the individual case.  In the case of the ER Medium Laser, it just became more powerful.  In the case of the ER Large Laser and ER PPC, it became lighter, leaner, AND more powerful.

That is not moving the goal posts.  You're moving them by ignoring key points and then blaming me on that.

No. You keep ignoring things. Why upgrade a weapon the Clans think so little of? Elementals were introduced long after Clan Tech was. So why weren't Flamers improved? Elemental's don't like flamers anyway, so why not improve them? Or the Fluid Gun? Or the Sprayer? Why aren't their Artillery Cannons lighter than IS versions?  They have all that new lighter metallurgy.  Why don't they have 2 ton Cockpits without any penalties?  Why aren't their standard engines lighter? Their Standard Armor? Not everything is upgraded.

How heavy is an Elemental Suit, and how heavy is a Flamer?  Think there was no improvement?

And if weapons are for their "Main" Warriors, who are Chemical Laser for? Frontline Troops? Secondline? Garrison Clusters?

Look back at the last sentence of what you quoted.  I already answered that question. 

I'll paraphrase it if you're hard of remembering: The Hell's Horses are unique in that they would be the only Clan to think of using them as they don't automatically dismiss Combat Vehicles as units of solahma, but incorporate them in front-line units. 

From an in-universe perspective, I'm rather surprised that someone like the Capellans or FWL didn't think of it as an option, either.  Out of universe, it's mostly because of the interest in "retro"/"primitive" brought on by things like Rocket Launchers and Rifle Canons.

I just pointed out that Beagle Active Probes were in their Prototype form for 16 years. What am I ignoring?

By dismissing the possibility of a longer development time (which prototyping is actually a part of).

Actually, for Mechs with ICEs you roll 2D6 to see if they blow up. Vehicle blow up when the fuel tank is hit. It's on their critical hit chart. If they have a fusion engine its an engine hit.

And is the fuel used for ICE considering toxic and reactive, and wouldn't there be many ICE Vehicles brought along?

Would there be a call for toxic and reactive novelty item?

For a vehicle? Sorry. Energy Weapons require heat sinks so you've got to figure in everything. To be fair though you also have to include a ton of ammo for ballistics. And vehicles can't use DHS. So still 4 tons.

One never knows when the TPTB will open up DHS to Combat Vehicles.  It would probably be the Hell's Horses that do it, too.

I don't think so. It's a lot easier to reproduce using existing specs than to design from scratch. Why reinvent something when you've got the plans right there? And why go through all that trouble when what you don't know if what you're experimenting with will do the job? Isn't it more likely that scientists found references to Chemical Lasers, dug up plans for them and build some to test out? And then after the tests, showed their Khan asking, "Are you wanting something like this?" And the Khan saying, "Yes. How soon can you start manufacturing them?"

Because there are things you would have to develop in order to produce such retrograde technology exactly.  Is it easier to include parts you are already making (such as ER laser optics), or develop a branch to make inferior optics just for this system?  Is it easier to utilize the casing and sub-parts of the lasers you are already building with just small modifications, or develop a branch to make inferior products to support it?

The former is wisdom on everyone's part, the second is just waste.

Why have an ER Small Laser when you can have an Improved Medium Laser that does the same damage, at greater range, for the same weight and crits?

Gonna need a proper quote for that.

Say something should be more massive gives a different connotation that it should be heavier.

Yes, "more massive" indicates that it should be heavier.  You are conflating it with "massively more".

How do we know that Chemical Lasers are Primitive?

Your question is disingenuous.  The Chemical Lasers are not considered Primitive.  It is the Primitive Chemical Lasers that are the topic of this discussion that are Primitive.

How many more items do I need to list? And why should I go through the trouble when you will just ignore it? Why only list Primitive items? Why not more modern ones? Wait. I've done that too.

You have not named one Primitive system.  You've named systems that are currently considered unchanged.  That's not the same thing.  There is no Primitive Flamer or Primitive Machine Gun.  There are Primitive Cockpits, Primitive Engines, Primitive Armor, to name a few.

I'm not the one trying to reinvent the wheel.

Actually, that is the whole point of this thread, statting a wheel that hasn't seen daylight since well before the current manufacturers grandparents were born.  It's like trying to produce a Babylonian chariot wheel using nothing but the pictures on Egyptian walls or medieval wheels from tapestries.

We're talking chemicals. The laser contains the combustion chamber and focusing equipment and what all needed to turn the combustion into a laser beam. Chemicals combust, move onto the next part of the weapon until they come out as a laser beam.  Putting "Shells" in adds an unnecessary step. Multiple steps. You have to open the shell. You have to remove the shell. You have to dispose of the shell. It's all unnecessary. Plus all equipment that adds unnecessary weight.  You've gone from pump that's on/off with a pull of the trigger to a heavy complicated loading and ejecting system. And Clan tech is supposed to be lighter.

So, from going by this, you know absolutely NOTHING about how a chemical laser works.  The shell does not get emptied, but the chemicals inside become altered.  It operates a lot closer to how a standard petrol car runs than a cannon or rocket engine as you are suggesting.  A reaction takes place in one part of the laser, and the energy is translated in to another part, while the altered fuel goes in a different direction.

Read up on it, it's very interesting.

Why wouldn't they when so much of Clan equipment isn't upgraded? You're also presuming the two different weapons systems have compatible components. If the Clans could do that, why don't we have Ultra LBX Autocannons that can fire all the munition types?

Because it is a new system to them, and they needed to alter it so it wouldn't kill the laborers and crew as soon as a tiny problem developed.  Containing the fuel in to "shell" casings helps resolve most of that problem.

Nope. I'm saying they built a weapon after looking consulting the archives. You're saying they completely re-invented it. That isn't going from "Primitive" to "Production" That's going from Standard AC to UAC.

You're also stating that the Scientists only did the most minimum amount of work and research on the subject.

And I wouldn't say it goes from Stadard AC to UAC, it's more like going from SLDF ER Large Laser to Clan ER Large Laser, and half of that research is already completed.

No I haven't. You keep insisting it took so long just to reach prototyping. I'm saying it was in production by then.

By stating "only 2 years or less", you are ignoring the month paradigm.  You dismiss without properly addressing it.  You have not even touched the possibility that 12 months+12 months+11 months rounds off to 3 years, even if they only are 2 flips of the year number.

There is no cartridge system. If it there were, it would take longer than 3 years for the R&D alone.

Not really.  If they had the Terran blueprints, the hardest part would be creating a cartridge that could transmit the energy as well as be sturdy enough to handle the bumps of battle.  Most ammo feed systems would cover getting it to the weapon as well as being able to handle the removal from the system.  Everything else is simply fine-tuning.

As for 3 years, review my case for the months in calculation again.

What?  Clan Hell's Horses have been a part of the Inner Sphere since 3070. TacOps was published in universe in 3075. The Chemical Lasers have been around a long time. Just because they're not included in a TRO doesn't mean they're not being used. A lot of equipment isn't in a TRO.

But then we aren't going by your standard that if it isn't in a book, it isn't canon.

I've explained everything else, not my fault you can't let go of a simple concept and clarification.

They're short range area effect weapons. How often do the Clans go up against pesky infantry?

Every time they go up against solahma and Bandits.  Of course, Elementals are usually easier to deploy for that.

What?  You're argument has been that they are shells. Now they're not?  And how is a "fuel cell" ammo bin any different from that used by a Flamer, Fluid Gun or Sprayer?

You seemed to miss how it was listed as "shells" and not shells, and as I pointed out above, you know nothing about how chemical lasers actually work.

The difference is that these "shells" for Hell's Horses Chemical Lasers are closer to AA batteries (that operate on a burst) then they are the tank of your Zippo lighter.  Chemical lasers do not project the chemicals they use like a Vehicle Flamer, Fluid Gun, or Sprayer.  They provide a burst of energy which is then translated in to a photon waveform.  Indeed, saying it is closer to Doc Brown's plutonium-powered time machine or train logs than to a cigarette lighter or rocket engine would not be wrong.

We have lots of Laser Cannons. All kinds of Laser Cannons. They just don't fire shells.

Prove it.  Where is a Laser Cannon listed?

And no one is saying that Chemical Lasers fire shells except in your imagination.

You also talked about optics which is the weapon. Not the ammo.

That's because lasers don't project their ammunition, and never have.  If it projects ammunition, it is not a laser.

I've been reading them for a long time. I've also said all that except the ammo. The ammo could be hydrogen fluoride or, deuterium fluoride, or deuterium fluoride–carbon dioxide or something else. For all we know each type was used. We don't know. We do know that they were Chemical Lasers. The Source Material though say so.

Still ignoring it to try to continue your argument.  If you cannot name any stats on it nor how much ammo it had, then you have nothing but supposition, but you still make claims of universality.

Because they don't know if that's what their Khan is looking for and they don't want to waste the time or resources reinventing something?
 
Like Scientists stop when a Khan says so.  That's what Laborers (and sometimes Techs) do.

You said outside the Vehicle Flamer. I named.

Except where is a Sprayer or Fluid Gun called an "Energy Weapon"?

Wrong. So wrong. Power Amplifiers are only needed with some engine types. Heat Sinks are required with all engine types. A Combat Vehicle Fusion Engine's helps with heat load because it comes with 10 heat sinks. Go over that and it's an additional ton and 2,000 bills, each.

Which costs and which weighs more for a Clan ER Large Laser on an ICE Tank.
1 x Power Amplifier = 10,000 bills  .5 tons
12 x Heat Sinks = 24,000 bills 12 tons

On a Fusion Tank
0 x Power Amplifier = 0 bills 0 tons.
2 x Heat Sinks = 4,000 bill 2 tons.

For a Standard Large Laser on an ICE Tank
1 x Power Amplifier = 10,000 bills  .5 tons
8 x Heat Sinks = 16,000 bills 8 tons

There's no additional cost or weight for a Fusion Tank.

In three out of the four cases the cost and weight of the Heat Sinks were greater than that of the Power Amplifier. Power Amplifiers aren't the biggest problem. It's the Heat Sinks. 

You're using the end result as justification for the purpose instead of what is included in the purpose statement.  Why would they have any idea Combat Vehicles didn't need to process the heat of Chemical Lasers before they built them?

The purpose statement states power amplifiers and does not state heat sinks.  Therefore, not needing the heat sinks was just a happy by-product, not original intent.

And what does that have to do with Dropships using Point Defense Systems?

It doesn't.  This part was a discussion on Clan improving their equipment.  You took it to space.

ICBMs are still being made. They're called Barracudas, Krakens, White Sharks, and Killer Whales.

False.  They are to be treated as such, they are not called such because it is easier to use existing rules than to create new ones.  Nor does that answer the question regarding when the original "Primitive" Chemical Lasers were being utilized.

They wouldn't be made if Point Defense were an issue. The Phalanx CIWS was introduced in 1978. It hasn't stopped missiles from being used. Why would Chemical Lasers?

It's called countering the counter.  One way to counter point defense is to overwhelm it (hence LRMs instead of Thunderbolts), another way it to provide evasion protocols to make them more difficult to for point defense to hit.  Just because it isn't stated, doesn't mean it isn't there.  They also don't mention the ambient ECM that every unit tends to have very often, either.

So? All that means is moving targets are harder to hit. Not impossible to hit.

Artillery is fired where you think they will be, not where they will be.  Guided missile systems are used to hit moving targets at range because they tend do things like alter their vectors, aka "dodge".  It is the difference between a Katyusha and an Exocet.  This is the difference between an ICBM and a ship-killer like a Barracuda.

We're not talking building a straight 4 or a horizontal 12 or a V8 or a Rotating 5. We're talking fuel/ammo consumption. We know that X uses 1. We know that Y uses 2. We do the math and adjust.

Actually we were talking about starting with just a Small PCL and then the Hell's Horses making the Medium CL and Large CL based off of that.  Things don't always scale the way one may expect them to due to how many other factors get involved.

I have admitted when I'm wrong and your references are out dated books - Which can be forgiven, providing one acknowledges that the book are outdated and doesn't ignore when new information is given.

No, there have been several times you have been wrong and then tried to blame me for it.  The case of the ER Large Lasers being a good example of being wrong and then blaming me for it.

And I have admitted to the possibility that my information may be outdated.  I haven't confirmed what you've stated at present, though.  You could just be blowing it up my backside.

I see no further point in trying to have a discussion with you. I'm done.

We'll see if your projection sticks.
« Last Edit: 01 September 2021, 14:13:38 by Charistoph »
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