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Author Topic: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals  (Read 10513 times)

Cannonshop

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Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« on: 26 November 2020, 21:01:45 »
The thing is, from their memorializing of the 171st to the actions on Kolwoon (Elber Toothpicks), LIz and her people have a very... bad history of war crimes.  They memorialize it, see it as throwing the Rimjobs off, but when POWs go running to other units rather than being taken by one unit, it's saying bad things about that one unit.

-Richard Korzon, Federated News Services, 3077

"...breached the defenses at Brian Fortress base Running Deer Mountain at 05:30 this morning.  The orders from DeChevalier's man was to delay Rim Worlds reinforcement and cause problems, but we found a defect in their security and I exploted it.
God help me, I wish I hadn't, given what that defect was.  Alpha Company found the logistical railway open and got inside, they checked the boxcars to see what the Rimjobs needed to keep coming...
we had trains loaded with civilians in box cars, most sedated.  Not dependents.  but it was when we breached the locks in that the real horror began.
They were parting these people out like used automobiles, shipments of frozen organs in alpabetically ranked rows in the outer levels.  Surgeries had been set up further down, with holding areas.
****** them.  They were sending organs to hospitals harvested from civilians here.

Some of the victims were children.

****** them.  there is nothing bad enough, no punishment harsh enough, for this.
I'll make one, and nobody will ever do this again.  Make an example so searing that it will never be forgotten."


-Tranh Truk Ngo, War Diary:Elbar Campaign 11 July, 2777


LCS Hermann Steiner BB-04, Sol System, 3078...

"I can get you out of this, Elizabeth!" Nathan insisted.

"No, you really can't." Elizabeth told him, "I need one of us to be with the kids, and Peter needs to get breathing room diplomatically, and I need you to get our people out of here before they get ideas about seizing the fleet as evidence."

"Elizabeth, it is a war crimes tribunal!"

"Nathan, if our positions were reversed you would tell me to do the exact same thing.  Go home, explain it to the kids, I'll either beat this, or it's rigged, but if it's rigged, they won't have to worry about assassination or kidnap teams for the next twenty years, if I'm here, instead of there-these people don't play  nice, whether it's the Combine, or Federated Suns, or the other members of the coalition.  Peter needs to show he's on board with restoring the Star League, and if he's harboring a war criminal, even one who's conviction is in absentia, he isn't going to be able to do that. the only way to beat this, is to be here to fight it, and we can't use guns to solve this particular problem."

"But Elizabeth-"

"I have my orders from the Archon. you have yours from the Khan.  do your duty." she told him, then looked over, "Captain Minh, is their shuttle docked?"

"ayeh Mum." Nicole Minh said curtly.

"Then it's time for me to go." Elizabeth said, "Get the fleet out of the AO as soon as I'm away.  Alicia Li and the Archon will have your orders from that point, but I don't want any...'co defendants' in the AO for them to start eyeing.  Either I'll get through this and be on my way home, or Peter will have further orders."

"Ayeh Mum, good luck." Nicole saluted.

Liz returned the salute, then, her husband behind her, headed down to the smallcraft bay.

"It is a stacked deck." Nathan said, "This tribunal will not be...fair."

"I know, but I trust Marthe's representatives on the board will, if nothing else, keep them from using speculation as the basis of their decision, at least, openly. They're going to have to convict and sentence based only on facts, and I can beat that, I think...and if I can't, well, I wouldn't be the first Ngo to be sent home after an operation in the Terran Hegemony."

"They will not just send you home." he said.

"No, probably not, but that's why I have to trust the Archon to have a backup plan-even if it means just making sure my ashes get home.  Make sure our children know I did my best, Nathan."  she turned and kissed him in the airlock to the smallcraft bay.  "I love you."

"I love you too..." He had his own ideas, but she asked him...

He watched her step into the bay, walk across the service way, and meet the Coalition force sent to arrest her.

Through the quartz window of the airlock, he watched the shuttle depart.

He barely had time to strap down when the Jump Alarm sounded.
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Sharpnel

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #1 on: 26 November 2020, 21:14:31 »
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Euphonium

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #2 on: 26 November 2020, 21:24:12 »
Oh my. This is going to be an interesting ride....
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kindalas

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #3 on: 26 November 2020, 21:55:06 »
I was wondering what the LC was getting out of letting a trial happen.

And I wonder if the Clans will object to the same things that the rest of the IS is upset about and if that matches what the Devlin Stone David Lear team are upset about.

And I wonder if the Regulan reaction to Gibson and the Master will be more or less extreme then what happened in the final reckoning.

Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #4 on: 26 November 2020, 22:10:00 »
(4) Unnecessary Suffering – “It is prohibited to employ weapons, projectiles and materials and methods of warfare of a nature to cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering.”
-Ares Conventions, article 35.3

"...colonel Tranh Truk Ngo, you are accused of violations of Ares Convention article 35.3.  Fifty one counts of it, the specifics being the execution by impalement of fifty one Rim Worlds Soldiers. you are also charged by this court with article 32.1, torture and abuse of prisoners of war.  These are serious charges, my god man, you used enemy prisoners as bayonet practice!"

"It was proportional, sir.  the fundamental enforcement mechanism of the Conventions is that violation leads to abrogation-a significant violation of the Conventions of war, especially when directed at civilian populations, requires a proportionally severe response to provide a reason for future or ongoing violations to cease."

-excerpted from the court record, 2780,
SLDF Inquest into field conduct at Running Deer Mountain

Kernigan Prison complex, Albany sector, New York, North America, 3078...

Elizabeth lost her aversion to nudity through a rather harsh method-being essentially tortured for ninety seven days of treatment by Clan medical personnel working to treat her Cholmann's syndrome had burned any sense of shame tied to being nude in front of strangers right out.

"Place your hands on the circles."  the prison staff had been at least partially replaced by Stone's partisans, this one had a Feddie accent, likely from somewhere near the border with the Combine-a mix of french, drawled english, and slight japanese clip in her tone.

Liz placed her hands on the circles, as the female Provost officer began the cavity search.

she endured it in silence.

"okay, straighten up." there was an orange jumpsuit, something made of paper with the word "Prisoner" stenciled on the back and down the sides.  "you can get dressed now."

Liz pulled on the treated paper uniform without a word, and closed the fastenings.

"****** you're quiet." the guard said, "The last couple of prisoners were shouting adamantly."

Liz didn't take the bait, instead remaining silent.

"wrists."

Elizabeth extended her wrists.

"You've done this before."

Liz eyed her, then decided to speak.  "Not my first ride." she said.

"Really?"

"Really." 

she allowed them to fasten the leg-restraints as well.  It would let her walk-after a fashion, but the connection to her wrists meant running was right out.

"this way."

they shuffled her to a set of doors, and onto an elevator.

the cabin shuddered as it descended.  Liz counted silently to herself, judging the speed of descent based on one gee.  ten meters down.

the door opened, on a bank of blank doors with quartz-reinforced windows.

"This way." 

"This way Commander." she corrected the NCO.  "I may be a prisoner under arraignment, but my commission is real, Please tell me you don't get so familiar with your own officers."

The Matron snorted derisively and Liz was shoved into a cell with just enough force that her restrained legs couldn't correct, and the door slid closed.

I wonder what they told them. she mused, lying on the floor.  gonna bruise from that.  she weighed options on whether or not to lodge a complaint, deciding to save it for later.
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Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #5 on: 26 November 2020, 22:34:34 »
Albany, surface...

Marine Lt. Colonel Linda Sithers was born a Rockjack, but she'd done two surface tours in the fifties totalling nearly ten years planetside, something rare.  She'd gotten her degree in military law through UW Donegal by extension courses by the end of 3067.  She'd been the closest available JAG officer that could be detailed, and her non-involvement in Operation:SCOUR meant she could not be fingered as a co-defendant.

The 'overbag' garment was Marine Tan-and-green, imitating the LCAF's BDU pattern in a slightly larger pattern to account for the Skinsuit and fittings.

"You are..."

"Lt. Colonel Linda Sithers.." she left off the numerics, Dirtyfeet don't usually accept numerics as part of someone's name "...Lyran Commonwealth Navy Judge Advocate's office.  My client is Commander Ngo, Elizabeth Anne.  The charges are violations of articles of Jus in bello and the Ares Conventions, Articles 35.1 through 36.8."

The man at the desk just looked confused.  "What?"

"I'm here to see the only prisoner you're holding that isn't a Blakist, I'm her lawyer.  Do you understand that, Legal Counsel for the Defense? I want to verify my client is not being abused, and as a part of my duties I'm here to discuss the exact charges against her.  do I need to go up your chain of command, Subaltern?"

"Just a moment, I need to confirm this is authorized."
The core rules for interacting with me:

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Derain Von Harken

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #6 on: 26 November 2020, 22:49:25 »
It had better be. Even if they try to stack the tribunal they do not want to be too skeevy with the regulations. Or risk having the whole thing thrown out. Also the disconnect between what Stone and Co may profess to be upset about vs what they are really upset about. So many ways that could come out. Even a private moment of Stone losing his cool at liz.

Obviously liz has smashed the defensive systems that would have held off a jade falcon attack. But I doubt she destroyed every Industrial center on planet and the only target people seem unsure about was blowing up Geneva. Which was still a valid target just not purely military. Liz said the planet will recover in a few decades. Even without help from the rest of the sphere.

But that's a few decades where it has no strength beyond symbolism and where its remaining Infrastructure is bent towards recovering not supporting the rest of whatever state it winds up part of.

Korzon77

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #7 on: 26 November 2020, 23:07:55 »
Geneva is a really big if. 

And if Liz's later comments come out.  I don't know if the argument of proportional relation are cannon in Universe, but they explicitly aren't permitted in most codes of international war, IE, "we executed 100 civilians because he did the same, or wanted to show him how much it'd cost."

Now, granted, Btech diverged pretty hard from the RW in the 1980s, and so it's possible that proportionality may very well *be* an accepted practice.

But if so, Liz is going to have to argue "proportional for that" and that will bring up the bioweapons attacks.

But the big point is the real reason Liz did this: she wanted to knock the Hegemony down so it couldn't be a threat, and that is far more dicy, especially in relationship to Geneva.

So Liz's defense will be arguing military necessity, while the prosecution will be arguing that Geneva didn't fall under military necessity and possibly actually was counter productive (if you kill the leadership, then you're in trouble because now nobody can surrender). 
The big thing that is going to hurt her, is you don't have to go looking very far at all to find good evidence of a direct animus against Terra, the Hegemony and the old Star League.

Of course, there's another problem--the Plague that was used can be dispensed by a single shuttle and there are Blakists out there.  Liz may find out that she's in prison--and her family and entire planetary population are now dead by plague. (and in fact if certain parties were feeling vindictive, that would e an excellent vengeance--make her live decades after everything the cared for died).

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #8 on: 26 November 2020, 23:36:12 »
So Liz's defense will be arguing military necessity, while the prosecution will be arguing that Geneva didn't fall under military necessity and possibly actually was counter productive (if you kill the leadership, then you're in trouble because now nobody can surrender). 
The big thing that is going to hurt her, is you don't have to go looking very far at all to find good evidence of a direct animus against Terra, the Hegemony and the old Star League.

Did the WOB pop off any WMDs as a final ****** You before losing a world here?  My Jihad lore isn't that hot but perusing Sarna.net shows nukes being used planetside, including at least one 'Friendly" fire incident and plenty of use (and occasional misuse) of orbital fire support.

This also opens the door to others being tried, such as the Nova Cat Commander on Stewart, who when the WOB Militia commander there refused to surrender declared a Trail of Annihilation on them.  Including execution of soldiers that tried to surrender.

She might pull off the Donitz Defense.  A Kriegsmarine Admiral in charge of U-Boats, he was charged among other things, ordering unrestricted submarine warfare against civilian shipping.  Donitz's defense was to bring up similar orders from Allied nations, notably Admiral Nimitz of the USN ordering all subs to sink anything Japanese after Pearl Harbor.  The Nuremberg Trails basically tabled that charge based on the defense raised against it.
« Last Edit: 27 November 2020, 01:58:46 by Nikas_Zekeval »

ThePW

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #9 on: 26 November 2020, 23:41:17 »
Helm, station keeping.

serack

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #10 on: 27 November 2020, 00:06:29 »
 My question is why people think Geneva the Planetary Capital of earth at the time was NOT a valid military target... It is the command and control for the planetary militia. And as such is imo a valid target... which should be part of her defense... again imo ...

Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #11 on: 27 November 2020, 00:08:59 »
Fort Edwards, North America...
One node of the SDS still functional-this one, here. 

very close to a faultline.

as a result, the Fort Edwards site had to be taken by ground forces.

on the positive, the dry lake facility had fallen intact-well, mostly intact.  It had required some softening up, and that softening had essentially cost two Lyran Destroyers before the SDS installation had been knocked out.

"Now that we've got her in custody, we should ask about this."  Victor noted as the ground car pulled to a stop.

"How so?"  General Belle Lee asked.

"She dropped rods on fifteen sites, three near cities, and the fortified bunker under Geneva...but she left this one untouched-and it's the oldest one."  Victor waited while guards checked identicards.

"San Andreas, probably." Belle commented.

"San Andreas, you mean the city-"

"I mean the faultline." Belle corrected him.  "Hits like she delivered to Cairo or Hilton Head would've destabilized the entire western faultline system, there wouldn't be anything standing from Baja to Unity City if she hit the faultline here with even one of them."

"That sounds like admiration, Belle. I thought y ou were pissed about this." Victor commented.

"I am." Belle said.  "th' ****** Outies smashed eighty percent of the defense infrastructure, the central node for the HPG network, and a city of over ten million people...but what scares me is what pisses me off the most."

"What's that?"

"It would've been a lot easier for her to wreck the whole planet permanently." Belle stated, "She demonstrated the ability to wreck the whole planet permanently, and the ability to hold back.  That's a scary combination right there.  Means Geneva warn't no error, it was precise and thought out..." she nodded to the gate guard, "And worse, we don't know how she managed to set it up or carry it out."

"a lot of that will come out in the trial." Victor asserted.

"yeah...Devlin is concerned about that too." Belle said, "Lear's suggested waiting until the conviction's secured."

"will it be secured though?" Victor asked, "I mean, we're about to tour proof she didn't do it blindly."

"I hear rumours, Victor." Belle said, "Rumour has it, the fix is in.  Devlin tells me this ain't so, but the rumours keep on that the board's going to be stacked to get a conviction."

"You're not on it?" Victor asked.

She shook her head.  "Nope.  at least, I don't think so.  'to present an image of impartiality', the Tribunal will include Federated Suns officers, Clan Ghost Bear's people, a couple of Wolf Clan people, some of our people, and representatives from the Lyrans and the Combine, plus seats for Regulus and Andurien."

"but you don't know who?"

"I don't know who.  The panel hasn't been drawn yet, which is why I'm a little worried that the rumours are true." she told him.



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mikecj

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #12 on: 27 November 2020, 00:41:14 »
Of course, shot while trying to escape is a classic for a reason...
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Derain Von Harken

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #13 on: 27 November 2020, 00:41:36 »
My question is why people think Geneva the Planetary Capital of earth at the time was NOT a valid military target... It is the command and control for the planetary militia. And as such is imo a valid target... which should be part of her defense... again imo ...
Plus the destruction of a fortified bunker in Geneva pushes it towards being a more valid target. Looking over things there are some ways actually convicting Liz would work against Stones interests. I just wonder if he can see it. Which makes fixing the tribunal a risky move.

Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #14 on: 27 November 2020, 00:43:25 »
"...orbital scans showed numerous cratering events on the surface, including partial destruction of the Republican Guard base outside Nha Tranh.  The impacts are consistent with the use of heavy orbital bombardment weapons or possibly asteroid strikes.  Contact with the surface indicates the Rim Worlds Administrators have forted up in the outskirts of Hue, and are being contained by pickets of rebel troops.  I took the liberty of contacting the apparent rebel leadership.  Apparently while we were in transit here, they were staging a revolution, and this time, they've succeeded.  We'll have to get more details once we've established a rapport, but this should free up the 331st to move on the next objective."
-General Aaron DeChevalier, aboard SLS Tuscon, 2769

"We threw rocks."
-Commander Anh Cu'ong159,
Kowloon Coast Guard Navy, 2769 (responding to SLDF inquiries on the destruction of two Rim Worlds military garrisons on Kowloon the previous year.)

Sioux Falls, South Dakota, 3078...

"...it is actually consistent with Kowloonese history and tactics."  Star Captain(Commodore) Leanne Foster noted.  "it's not even their first time doing it like this, you know."

"What, orbital bombardment, or kinetic weapons? The Lyrans are not known for this."  Star Captain Randolph Tseng asked, intrigued.

"THe Lyrans are not what makes up most of the Lyran Navy brass." the Snow Raven officer said, as a local labo-local waitress filled her coffee up in the diner's main room.  "Liz Ngo built that navy, and she used Kowloonese to do it.  Peter owns the service, but they are her people.  My ancestor was DeChevalier's taxi-driver on the Tuscon early in the war against the usurper, they were the ship that made first contact with Kowloon after things kicked off."

she sipped her coffee.

Her companion, a large man of Elemental breed dressed in Ghost Bear uniform, paused with his fork over a plate of pancakes smothered in syrup and strawberries.  "Really? what did they use?"

"Rocks." she said, "the Kowloonese-their 'spacer' cousins in the outer system, dropped rocks on the planet to break the Rim Worlds military's ability to control the situation, break the Republican Guard bases, and disrupt the commo long enough for their ground-side insurgency to win the war there."  she took a packet of sweetener, tore it open and stirred it into the coffee.  "So they orbital bombarded themselves to get rid of a hated enemy."

"and it is NOT their first time." he nodded.  "I got my chit, Leanne.  I am to be seated on the Tribunal."

"Sucks to be you." she said.

"Excuse me?"

"well, you know...Elbar." she said.  "you will have to pass judgement on a descendant of the Elbar campaign."
The core rules for interacting with me:

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2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

Korzon77

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #15 on: 27 November 2020, 00:52:36 »
Did the WOB pop off any WMDs as a final ****** You before losing a world here?  My Jihad lore isn't that hot but pursuing Sarna.net shows nukes being used planetside, including at least one 'Friendly" fire incident and plenty of use (and occasional misuse) of orbital fire support.

This also opens the door to others being tried, such as the Nova Cat Commander on Stewart, who when the WOB Militia commander there refused to surrender declared a Trail of Annihilation on them.  Including execution of soldiers that tried to surrender.

She might pull off the Donitz Defense.  A Kriegsmarine Admiral in charge of U-Boats, he was charged among other things, ordering unrestricted submarine warfare against civilian shipping.  Donitz's defense was to bring up similar orders from Allied nations, notably Admiral Nimitz of the USN ordering all subs to sink anything Japanese after Pearl Harbor.  The Nuremberg Trails basically tabled that charge based on the defense raised against it.

Those are all valid questions. I mean, the big issue is that Btech isn't the real world. For example, Kentares was an atrocity--but was it an atrocity because of civilian deaths (some nothing that wasn't even a rounding error in the overall death toll of the time), or due to the fact that the attack came after the planet had been conquered and could no longer provide meaningful resistance.

It's entirely possible that Btech has some varient of the ancient custom of "if you don't surrender when called upon, you can't scream when we sack your city."  An argument could be raised that at this point, the war was over, the WOB had lost, and there was no meaningful gain to be made by holding out, and thus, by essentially "hiding" behind the planetary population they forced the hand of the attackers.

And of course politics enter into it--the Commonwealth, having lost vastly more people and treasure (bioweapons murdering off an entire pouplatoin and rendering the planet unusable) are likely to be unsympathetic to the prosecution, with a good chunk of "why didn't she just target Yellowstone" added in.

I guess the biggest problem is that outside of the third and fourth succession wars, there's never been a major intersteller conflict in Btech that *didn't* see a ton of atrocities, many of them state sponsored. Focusing on Liz for the one that actually had a purpose (ending a war) might be dicy... before an objective court.

Derain Von Harken

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #16 on: 27 November 2020, 01:14:38 »
Looks like the ghost bears are cognizant of how convicting liz could have problematic effects. Because there are precedents for this and honestly they would be supporting Liz. Which could be said of everyone on the tribunal. I just wonder how much stone really thought about it before pushing for this tribunal. Or if it was wholly his idea.

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #17 on: 27 November 2020, 01:28:12 »
Did the WOB pop off any WMDs as a final ****** You before losing a world here?  My Jihad lore isn't that hot but pursuing Sarna.net shows nukes being used planetside, including at least one 'Friendly" fire incident and plenty of use (and occasional misuse) of orbital fire support.
  The previous stories in this iteration of the Ngo-verse explicitly note that ‘someone’ using Terran ships and Terran access to Alarion and shipyards delivered a bio-weapon to the planet, one so virulent that a world that once had a population in the billions no longer has a population and will have to remain quarantined until its sun goes nova and burns those bacteria right off the bedrock.  When Liz authorised the kinetics, she specifically cited the near-certainty that the Alarion attack was Blaker work as justification for retaliation in kind.

  Also:
 C:-)
  Just letting everyone know that I’m watching this thread.  I’d prefer to be nothing more than a reader, this time.  Please: let what I plan, and what actually happens, actually be kind’a similar this time?
 C:-)

Korzon77

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #18 on: 27 November 2020, 01:51:59 »
As an aside, one thing that should be terrifying the *daylights* out of anyone thinking about things is that this have proven how absolutely easy it is to destroy a world. THe Blakists, if they have any more of that bioweapon (which had a nanotech component, I believe) could destroy dozens of worlds for on more than the cost of some Dropshiop tickets and a few containers with a blackpowder rocket, combined with a scattering charge to spread the stuff once you get it high enough into the sky--probably costing under 100 cbills, if you con't count the cost of developing teh bioweapons.

Liz has shown that you can destroy worlds from near *interstellar* distances. AGain, for relatively inexpensive prices--certainly less than the cost of a single regiment of mechs.

And of course we know that there are irrational actors in Btech, ranging from the WOB to some of the more insane pirates--just imagine Morgaine deciding that if she can KE say, the core worlds of some of the successor states, it'd give her open season to do what she wants.*

So a big background to this is probably going to be lots of people talking very seriously of "how do we provide a countermeasure to this, keeping in mind that it's not enough to protect our capital worlds--every world has to have some level of protection."

*Normaly pirates wouldn't do this, but for whatever reason, Btech pirates seem to come with a very large helping of "these people are completely psychotic and commit atrocities for the fun of it."

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #19 on: 27 November 2020, 02:03:17 »
  Ideally speaking, the aerospace combat rules would have more focus, both in-universe and IRL, and they’d include an explicit handwave that makes this sort of long-range KKV attack impossible so there are Good Reasons why this sort of thing doesn’t happen routinely (other than a gross mass failure of creativity, in-universe).  In my own Renegade Tech version of the WarShip rules, for instance, there are loopholes in KF physics that prevent any nuclear event or kinetic impactor from delivering more than, say, half a megaton of energy to whatever it’s hitting; the other however-many kilo-/mega-/XXX-tons all get shunted into hyperspace (For Complex Mathematical Reasons™), so trying to crack a planet with KKVs, or tip a capital missile with a yield exceeding 500kT, is an exercise in futility.

idea weenie

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #20 on: 27 November 2020, 02:08:36 »
The only thing I can see helping to prevent such an action occurring would be increasing sensor ranges to help spot incoming projectiles.

This could be a combination of increasing ship sensor ranges (rule changes), stacking sensor ranges at extreme cost (more rule changes), or in-universe inviting Belters into the system so they can keep an eye on the surrounding space.

The last one could be in-universe politics, which is much messier   ;D

Derain Von Harken

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #21 on: 27 November 2020, 02:15:04 »
The only thing I can see helping to prevent such an action occurring would be increasing sensor ranges to help spot incoming projectiles.

This could be a combination of increasing ship sensor ranges (rule changes), stacking sensor ranges at extreme cost (more rule changes), or in-universe inviting Belters into the system so they can keep an eye on the surrounding space.

The last one could be in-universe politics, which is much messier   ;D
Plus it only works on fixed defences. Yes you can ruin a planet with total bombardment but assuming you want it as Intact as Terra was when liz was done? Mobile defensive platforms like submarines are still a danger. Along with concealed Installations that cannot be seen from orbit. Except not many use those.

Plus it requires pre positioning of the bombardment platforms and careful math.  If people are aware of it you can thwart said prepositioning. Which is the same situation for anyone in a fixed position where the other side has ranged artillery.

EAGLE 7

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #22 on: 27 November 2020, 02:16:01 »
  So the argument should be, Devlin and Lear wanted the “Coalition “ to take the defenses and bleed men, ships, and treasure.
   Then his dream of republic would still have the defensive infrastructure and all his future competitors would be attritted.

  Liz did not reduce earth to a death planet, she only hit military targets, and to ensure it had minimum collateral damage her forces lost ships/people.

Edited to fix attributed to the correct attritted.
« Last Edit: 27 November 2020, 11:58:39 by EAGLE 7 »
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Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #23 on: 27 November 2020, 02:20:54 »
Tharkad...

"Why are you doing this, Peter?  You know they're going to crucify her!"  Henry Ngo was a Jade Falcon Star Colonel, and normally one would expect him to NOT be in a private meeting room with the Archon of the Lyran Alliance, Nor for him to be here with Phelan Kell.

"Diplomacy." Peter said.  "Marthe and I already worked this out, Star Colonel Ngo, Khan Kell."

"What is the payoff?" Phelan asked.

"Star League." Peter said, "one more chance to bring it back for real-we establish a legal precedent of international law, I get Stone's people backing a return for the Star League."

"Does she know?" Henry demanded, "That you are sacrificing her for this?"

Peter nodded silently.

"My god, you expect her to lose."

"That's one contingency." Peter stated.  "By standing trial, we win."

"MAYBE. Maybe you win, Highness, and maybe you have handed my sister to a lynch mob!!"

"The plan is sound.  We establish a fixed system of international justice, a panel of jurors from all involved nations, on a neutral-"

"Hardly neutral, she is being charged and tried on the same planet that is claiming injury." Phelan spoke up, "Jesus, Peter, did Victor give you a glass of Kool-aid or something?  are you hearing the words coming out of your mouth??"

"She bombarded Terra!"  Peter shot back, "The cradle of mankind, the 'holy grail' for half of-"

"My branch of Clan Wolf are wardens, Peter." Phelan said, "jesus..."

"She married a Crusader, Phelan." Henry said, "I can not believe Marthe approved this...sacrifice, not without a damned good reason."

"Elizabeth went with it." Peter said.

"Oh for ******'s sake Peter! of course Elizabeth is going to comply!! Do you not ****** know about her standing instructions to the Navy, about her whole kick on professional conduct??  You gave her an order and she's following it! she's following it because her whole thing about 'birth doesn't matter' and 'the rules apply to everyone'!!"

"Don't they?" Peter asked.  "I approved CROWBAR as a contingency, Henry, she was supposed to abort if it wasn't needed."

"Who told you it was not needed?" Phelan asked quietly.  "Keep in mind, even Vlad agreed it was the right move, and he absolutely despises her for who she is with!"

"I can't call it back now, gentlemen, it's done." Peter said.

Henry looked to the Wolf Khan,  "I will request clarification from my Khan...but we need a contingency in case this scheme does not work as intended."

"Several." Phelan agreed.  The Two clan officers, from rival Clans and Inner Sphere background, walked away without being dismissed.

"I still can not believe Marthe Pryde bought off on this.." were the last words that were intelligible as they left the room.
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Korzon77

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #24 on: 27 November 2020, 02:27:53 »
Plus it only works on fixed defences. Yes you can ruin a planet with total bombardment but assuming you want it as Intact as Terra was when liz was done? Mobile defensive platforms like submarines are still a danger. Along with concealed Installations that cannot be seen from orbit. Except not many use those.

Plus it requires pre positioning of the bombardment platforms and careful math.  If people are aware of it you can thwart said prepositioning. Which is the same situation for anyone in a fixed position where the other side has ranged artillery.

Depends on if you want the world intact after the strike.  If you just want New Avalon of Luthien *gone*... well, then precise targeting isn't a big deal.

Which is a big problem when you consider that anyone rich enough to afford a jumpship, some dropship and a boundary willing to make them iron KE projectiles (which could just be called: big iron bars), now has themselves a potential world killer.

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #25 on: 27 November 2020, 02:35:26 »
Albany...

"What the ****** are you doing, your grace?" Seether had finally gotten to meet with her client in an un-bugged room.  "You should've been on your way back across the line!"

"It's complicated." Elizabeth stated, "Tell me, what kind of value is having a rule of law, if it's only enforced on the losers? what good are standards if they're not evenly applied?"

"you did nothing wrong!"

"I need to prove that in a court of law. Then, the Law will have bite. it sets a precedent and that precedent will be seen and studied by officers, who will become generals and admirals, and it will work its way into the doctrines-here is the line, that you do not cross, here is the gray area, and here is permitted action.  These are the exceptions that are required to cross that gray area.  If Stone really does seat a fully international panel, say, of everyone who might still want to be part of the Star League, then it establishes The Standard."

"are you high?"

"Clean for the last five years, Seether." Liz said, "It has to be done, we can't afford another Jihad or First Succession War, and we can't afford for people to think 'well if I win, what I do doesn't matter'.  That precedent was a bad precedent.  If Kerensky convicted Tranh Truk Ngo after Elbar, maybe Kentares wouldn't have happened.  Maybe we wouldn't have lost seven centuries of advancement in three hundred years."

"jesus christ, was this your plan?"

"No." Liz said, "But, it's a good plan anyway.  Cheer up, you're going to participate in the trial of a century."
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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #26 on: 27 November 2020, 06:32:31 »
The only thing I can see helping to prevent such an action occurring would be increasing sensor ranges to help spot incoming projectiles.

This could be a combination of increasing ship sensor ranges (rule changes), stacking sensor ranges at extreme cost (more rule changes), or in-universe inviting Belters into the system so they can keep an eye on the surrounding space.

The last one could be in-universe politics, which is much messier   ;D

There's no reasonable way to protect a planet from a kinetic impactor. The attack can come from anywhere and be launched from light years away (depending on when the enemy has planned their first strike). You'd need a network of probably millions of detector satellites able to pinpoint a small inert object, each equipped with FTL communications so they can get the news out fast enough to do anything about it, combined with a similar number of weapon satellites able to deflect or ablate it before it can whiz past on its merry way. The shear volume of space you have to cover is astronomical.

And even if you pull it off, you're just asking your enemy to go back to jars of contaminated biomass, aberrant chemistry, or extremely high output short duration fusion reactors. Worst of all, there's no real political solution. The knowledge is in the wild, the tech readily available, so you can't even bank on mutual assured destruction to deter first use by a rogue power, who could literally be just an angry guy with a dropship and a hold full of rocks.

The only real way to protect a planet is to remove everything a person might want to use a weapon of mass destruction on from the planet.
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Artifex

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #27 on: 27 November 2020, 06:50:18 »
Trial of the century indeed ...

TAGged!

Euphonium

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #28 on: 27 November 2020, 07:39:10 »
Skipping over the legalities and ethics of what Liz did, what I'm interested in now is what everybody's endgame is for this tribunal.

Liz wants to establish a firm interstellar rule of law with a high standard and and seems to be willing to to take the fall personally if if this tribunal establishes that all future leaders will be held to the same standard.

We haven't seen Devlin Stone's point-of-view yet but at the end of the last thread suggested that he basically wants revenge because Liz thwarted his plans for establishing his own power base on Terra, and he intends to to rig the outcome.

Peter seems to be looking at this as a necessary step towards establishing a Star League that works, and would reluctantly sacrifice Liz to achieve that. it also sounds like he is a bit in shock that she actually use the contingency plan after he approved it.

It looks like the Wolves and the Falcons both think that holding a tribunal is wrong, but I don't see anything yet about what they want to happen next now that the trial is going to happen. Also be interested to see if the walls of the falcons get a seat on the tribunal.
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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #29 on: 27 November 2020, 07:47:12 »
I think Stone's goal is less about revenge and more about establishing his own moral authority. He likely intends to use Liz' excesses as a symbol of why his new order, along with its disarmament, centralized control over the communication network, and placing Terra at the center of humanity, is necessary.

He doesn't just want to convict, he wants to beat her arguments and control the narrative so his message is what comes through in the end.
Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

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