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Author Topic: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals  (Read 10492 times)

namar13766

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #180 on: 01 December 2020, 09:24:24 »
so really, the battle plan issue is a lose-lose for Stones Coalition here. no matter what they claim regarding it, it is bad for them. they're either incompetent, duplicitous, working for the enemy, or just as bad as the people they're fighting. and none of the four outcomes is good for the image they are trying to project to the rest of the inner sphere.

That's the mistake Stone, Lear, and their ilk made. They thought that by taking Ngo to trial, they could offer the plea deal and get political capital when Ngo took it. Instead, they're having to actually air out their laundry in the process, which, surprise surprise, is hurting their credibility more than Ngo.

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #181 on: 01 December 2020, 09:40:58 »
That's the mistake Stone, Lear, and their ilk made. They thought that by taking Ngo to trial, they could offer the plea deal and get political capital when Ngo took it. Instead, they're having to actually air out their laundry in the process, which, surprise surprise, is hurting their credibility more than Ngo.

One question, why was it only the Lyrans who saw how bad the plan was ahead of time?

JA Baker

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #182 on: 01 December 2020, 09:42:53 »
One question, why was it only the Lyrans who saw how bad the plan was ahead of time?
Because they're the only ones not drinking the KoolAid Stone was passing round
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Sharpnel

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #183 on: 01 December 2020, 09:48:17 »
Because they're the only ones not drinking the KoolAid Stone was passing round
Quoted for truth. The old saying applies to Stone, "Peace sells, but who's buying?"
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Euphonium

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #184 on: 01 December 2020, 11:03:01 »
One question, why was it only the Lyrans who saw how bad the plan was ahead of time?

Was it the Lyrans who saw it, or the 'loonies? I don't really think of those as being the same thing.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #185 on: 01 December 2020, 11:21:39 »
a good question.. they compared the version the Lyrans got to the one Stone's people provided, they should compare them to the ones the falcons, wolves, etc got as well. see if there were any big discrepancies between versions beyond "the plan left out unexpected units"

of course, the tribunal being stacked so heavily with clanners makes the battleplan issue trickier.. because of their traditions of trial warfare and bidding, they are used to taking less than ideal forces into planetary assaults and still getting victory. it is/was a point of pride to defeat a larger tougher force with a smaller one. this would (in theory) skew their interpretation of Stone's battle plan.
of course Cannonshop's clanners aren't stupid, so they shouldn't be blinded by "traditional clan practice" like they might in canon.

monbvol

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #186 on: 01 December 2020, 11:29:14 »
There are two possibilities in that regard.

1. Other people saw it was a bad plan and just didn't care for whatever reason.

2. Other people actually thought it was a good plan.

But either way Liz's testimony was that there was not enough time to securely communicate a new plan and the math just does not support that for transit times.

Plus did the WoB not use asteroid bombardment in this setting? 

Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #187 on: 01 December 2020, 11:50:07 »
You sure you want the strikes launched from 4 light seconds out Cannonshop?

Because that's not far off Lunar orbit(at least in astronomical terms) and absolutely well inside the sensor nets and active patrol zones.  Like you wouldn't even need the directional arrays to have a really good chance of detecting a space craft even if it was coasting.

Which raises the question of how long the Cutters were in system.  If they jumped in 4 light hours out(inside Pluto's orbit for reference which is 39.5 AU out from the Sun) the time it'd take them to get to the Oort cloud(2000 AU at it's closest point works out to about 11 light days), well the timeline simply breaks just on that.

To be generous I'll assume they charged off the engines and jumped to a part of the Oort cloud without a WoB patrol/occupation force close enough to detect it that also had Oort Belter presence to meet up with then found another good place to jump back in system that was outside the 15 AU detection limit that again did not have a WoB presence.

For another point of reference the standard zenith/nadir point is about 9 AU from Earth.

Even best case scenario given that they were not using their main drives any more than absolutely necessary and thus would actually have to coast most of the way, well it's hard to see anything under several months being realistic.  Like before Stone even gave anyone his plans several months.

I'll work on that, because you're right.  I was pulling numbers out my fourth point of contact. :p :P
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Dave Talley

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #188 on: 01 December 2020, 12:17:20 »
I'll work on that, because you're right.  I was pulling numbers out my fourth point of contact. :p :P

be sure and disinfect afterwards

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monbvol

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #189 on: 01 December 2020, 12:45:55 »
I'll work on that, because you're right.  I was pulling numbers out my fourth point of contact. :p :P

To be fair it is easy to forget how far apart stuff really is in space.  All in all it is one of the major issues I have with Battletech as presented.  Because tactics like you had Liz use only require patience and we've seen the kind of blood thirst/absolute spite canon characters are capable of.

Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #190 on: 01 December 2020, 13:29:53 »
"Prosecution calls Doctor Harrison Yamada of the Tokyo Psychiatric Institute."

"What is this in connection to, Colonel?"

Haskins paused, "Speaking to the mindset of the defendant."

Harrison Yamada was a Eurasian man in his forties, in a neatly trimmed, fashionable pale-gray suit.

he was sworn in and took his seat.

"Doctor Yamada, can you explain to the court your purpose in being here?"

"I have been asked to do a psychographic workup for a criminal investigation." Yamada said.

"have you experience in doing this?"

"I am considered competent by my peers, a few awards here and there for my work in both therapeutic and investigative forensic psychology.  Normally I'm working in my lab or instructing graduate students, but this case was...interesting."

"Interesting?"

"Profiling this subject was quite interesting.  Normally in these cases, I don't get the opportunity to observe a subject in person.  This patient is a gift that keeps giving insights, she's utterly fascinating in the way her pathologies play off one another..."
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Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #191 on: 01 December 2020, 13:45:09 »
Ah, the worse of shrinks, diagnosis without examining the patient.

glitterboy2098

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #192 on: 01 December 2020, 13:47:54 »
he's a forensic psychologist. experts in stereotyping based on biased descriptions.

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #193 on: 01 December 2020, 13:58:08 »
he's a forensic psychologist. experts in stereotyping based on biased descriptions.

Wait, Seether did Special Victims work, how many of these guys has she run into?  And how brutal will she be with him on cross examination?

Artifex

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #194 on: 01 December 2020, 14:01:06 »
he's a forensic psychologist. experts in stereotyping based on biased descriptions.
And those are the worst in my opinion, because they actually can make verdicts without even at any given time, you know, interacting with the patient.

Some years ago we had a case here in Germany, where exactly this happened to a controversial man, who then had to spend initially 6 years in prison in a psychiatric ward, all the while stating that due process was not done in his case but still getting stuck away in a psychiatric ward, where the verdict on his mental health was always rendered negative without even getting interviewed by the psychologist involved in the case. (For those who're interested here's the link to the case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustl_Mollath)

This actually gave serious mental trouble on how - rather - easily you can render someone to be of no concern at all and then locked away while potentially being innocent.

/edit:
Wait, Seether did Special Victims work, how many of these guys has she run into?  And how brutal will she be with him on cross examination?

I really hope she's going to go medieval on the guy.
« Last Edit: 01 December 2020, 14:04:31 by Artifex »

namar13766

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #195 on: 01 December 2020, 15:21:54 »
he's a forensic psychologist. experts in stereotyping based on biased descriptions.

Dear god, I know psychiatrists and psychologists can be very helpful in dealing with mental health issues, but forensic phycologists make my teeth grind.

One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest is still relevant.

jonen c

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #196 on: 01 December 2020, 16:50:49 »
There are two possibilities in that regard.

1. Other people saw it was a bad plan and just didn't care for whatever reason.

2. Other people actually thought it was a good plan.

But either way Liz's testimony was that there was not enough time to securely communicate a new plan and the math just does not support that for transit times.

Plus did the WoB not use asteroid bombardment in this setting?

Of note, the Lyrans were the ones with the best intel on Sol.

The only ones with comparable intel would be C*/Stones boys and maybe, maybe, Clan Jade Falcon.

Can't properly judge a plan if you don't have good intel on the enemy.

Stone & CO could cover their bad plan as being based on what turned out to be bad intel, but that basically acknowledges Lizzies actions as military necessity.

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #197 on: 01 December 2020, 18:01:51 »
It says something that they can't even refute the defense's claim of military necessity. They can't discount all the claims that Stone's plans were inadequate at the tactical and strategic levels.

Their best play is to portray Liz as some sort of psychopath who resorted to WMDs as a first resort.

Derain Von Harken

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #198 on: 01 December 2020, 18:07:22 »

"Interesting?"

"Profiling this subject was quite interesting.  Normally in these cases, I don't get the opportunity to observe a subject in person.  This patient is a gift that keeps giving insights, she's utterly fascinating in the way her pathologies play off one another..."
I admit cannonshop. It did not occur to me they would try that in the courtroom. Maybe it should have when they got desperate. Well done.
Because in the vein of digging the hole deeper. They are now questioning the psychiatric evaluation programs of the LCN.
« Last Edit: 01 December 2020, 18:32:13 by Derain Von Harken »

EAGLE 7

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #199 on: 01 December 2020, 18:21:09 »
A little simple data analytics.

They lost 2 Destroyers softening up, one Orbital defense battery. This was done because it was near a fault line.

X# of Orbital defense batteries * 2 capital warships = no allied warships.
Plan on higher loss until majority of orbital defenses are reduced, so 3 or 4 Waeships until 75% reduction.

20 Orbital defense locations figure 70 Destroyer or larger ships destroyed.( more for naval forces who do not fight in suits, with atmosphere in the ship).

Plus could the nuke missile network controlled by Geneva be used as anti- waeship or dropship defense?

Or mass nukes would work too.
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georgiaboy

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #200 on: 01 December 2020, 19:19:45 »
You have to have the equivalant of a Minitaur (MX ICBM + 2 more launch systems as 2nd and 3rd stage rigged for Vacuum use) or a Falcon 9 to reach low earth orbit with a un armored system.


So those missile systems would have to be big. but they have had 2 centuries to get ready for this invasion.
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glitterboy2098

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #201 on: 01 December 2020, 19:30:40 »
most likely they would have been Peacemaker silos. those are part of the planetary defense network, silo launched Killer Whale Cap missiles with 500kt warheads. capable of of hitting both surface and orbital targets.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Killer_Whale#Variants

with a 10,000 km atmospheric range, they'd be able to hit basically anything within the hemisphere they were in. and if Geneva was the control point for silos all across the globe, one fire order could literally wreck the entire planet.

namar13766

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #202 on: 01 December 2020, 19:58:10 »
most likely they would have been Peacemaker silos. those are part of the planetary defense network, silo launched Killer Whale Cap missiles with 500kt warheads. capable of of hitting both surface and orbital targets.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Killer_Whale#Variants

with a 10,000 km atmospheric range, they'd be able to hit basically anything within the hemisphere they were in. and if Geneva was the control point for silos all across the globe, one fire order could literally wreck the entire planet.

Wasn't there also a dead-man's switch which would have scorched Earth if the Blakists felt they needed to deny Terra to the rapaciousness of the scavenger lords?

glitterboy2098

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #203 on: 01 December 2020, 20:30:20 »
depends on whether the system was fail-safe or fail-deadly. the latter being something like Perimeter and Dead Hand. fail-deadly seems probable.

but even that one had to be activated first. by taking out the missile command center so suddenly and before the planet had appeared to be in danger of invasion, the WoB wouldn't have had any chance to bring the system online.

Korzon77

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #204 on: 01 December 2020, 21:25:25 »
I admit cannonshop. It did not occur to me they would try that in the courtroom. Maybe it should have when they got desperate. Well done.
Because in the vein of digging the hole deeper. They are now questioning the psychiatric evaluation programs of the LCN.

Not just that they're bringing in someone who has no actual interaction with the individual, which opens him up to all kinds of cross examination.

Not to mention the simple fact that you can't just turn a "Pathology" off. If Liz hated Terra so much, why not just target crowbar on the major fault lines and launch a few more?  Arguing irrationality sort of demands irrational actions and hers weren't.

Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #205 on: 02 December 2020, 00:02:39 »
while the prosecution's psychologist began rambling on using dense technical terms, Seether started to smile, then pushed it down, and began visibly writing down notations, looking up, and writing some more.

gotcha.

she raised a hand without looking up.

"Court recognizes defense counsel."

"question for the witness, your Honor?"

"Can it wait for cross-examination?"

"Just a clarification needed." she said innocently, "For the benefit of the Tribunal's understanding of Doctor Yamada's diagnosis? we wouldn't want to be unclear on the record."

"Colonel Haskins, he's your witness and this is your designated timeframe."

"I'll allow it." Haskins said.

"Fine, The defense will be aware, this does cut into your cross-examination period."

"Understood...Doctor, you mentioned a list of possible pathologies, can you define those for the panel, sir?  I can provide a list if you've forgotten." Seether said, "With everyone here being a layman, some of your technical terms are quite...obscure?"

"Gladly!" Yamada puffed up a bit, and Seether had to suppress her grin again, as the 'expert witness' fell into one of the easiest traps she'd used before-by stroking his vanity.
« Last Edit: 02 December 2020, 00:04:29 by Cannonshop »
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Dave Talley

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #206 on: 02 December 2020, 00:07:24 »
exactly,
if she was so anti terra she would have simply pushed a bunch of very large rocks at earth, pop in, latch guidance and propulsion pods on several asteroids, and launch them from all directions at the same time, even if spotted throwing 20+ Chixulub sized rocks at fault lines and big metro area and sit back to watch the show
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Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #207 on: 02 December 2020, 00:22:59 »
Ah the trap of the expert witness, and why GM's lawyers liked my dad on the stand when he got called a few times as an expert witness (structures and welding).

He was able to clearly say exactly what he means and wants to about the case in question, and then shut up.  Apparently this is a real headache in legal circles, the expert wanting to expound on their subject, and maybe their ego by showing off their knowledge while on the witness stand.  And keep talking right into something the other side can use to torpedo their testimony.

Derain Von Harken

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #208 on: 02 December 2020, 00:40:34 »
Ah the trap of the expert witness, and why GM's lawyers liked my dad on the stand when he got called a few times as an expert witness (structures and welding).

He was able to clearly say exactly what he means and wants to about the case in question, and then shut up.  Apparently this is a real headache in legal circles, the expert wanting to expound on their subject, and maybe their ego by showing off their knowledge while on the witness stand.  And keep talking right into something the other side can use to torpedo their testimony.
Indeed.  In this case it is likely the detailed explanation will result in the conclusion that some of the pathologies contradict each other. Or would require her being so crazy she could not string three words together. Which clearly she can do.

Seethers likely picked up on it due to her skillset. The prosecution being so good likely realised the general strategy the moment she got the good doctor to start talking. Even if he cannot pick out the fault himself right away. I like how this trial has both prosecution and defence experiencing oh shit moments.
« Last Edit: 02 December 2020, 00:55:04 by Derain Von Harken »

Korzon77

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #209 on: 02 December 2020, 01:47:04 »
And of course she's torpedoed one of the more common reasons for an expert witness--dazzle the jury with BS, so that they don't think about it.
The problem comes if they do think about it, the very tactics you use to dazzle them--confusing them, can come back and haunt you.