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Author Topic: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals  (Read 4106 times)

Euphonium

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #150 on: 30 November 2020, 19:28:39 »
Just trying to get my head around the cast of this story. Going through the last few posts I get the following:

Prosecutor - Colonel Jerry Haskins (Stone's Forces, former ComStar Demiprecentor & military law professor)

Defence - Linda Sithers, Kowloon Coast Guard

Tribunal Chair - Khan Lynn McKenna (Clan Snow Raven)

Named Panel members
(described as Ghost Bear x2, Wolf, Snow Raven, Jade Falcon, Wolf in Exile, Draconis Combine x2, Federated Suns, Stone's republic)
  • Chu-Sa Eric Leonards (Draconis Combine)
  • Chu-sa Kim Keyouk (Draconis Combine)
  • Lt. Colonel Henry Grier (Federated Suns)
  • Star Captain Ilena (Ghost Bear)
  • Star Captain Ivanka (Jade Falcon)
  • Major Pedro Tsennig (Free Worlds League)

I'm assuming that all of the panel members are MechWarriors until stated otherwise, and that Khan McKenna is a naval officer.

Have I missed anyone?
« Last Edit: 30 November 2020, 19:30:25 by Euphonium »
>>>>[You're only jealous because the voices don't talk to you]<<<<

Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #151 on: 30 November 2020, 19:30:31 »
Just trying to get my head around the cast of this story. Going through the last few posts I get the following:

Prosecutor - Colonel Jerry Haskins (Stone's Forces, former ComStar Demiprecentor & military law professor)

Defence - Linda Sithers, Kowloon Coast Guard

Tribunal Chair - Khan Lynn McKenna (Clan Snow Raven)

Named Panel members
(described as Ghost Bear x2, Wolf, Snow Raven, Jade Falcon, Wolf in Exile, Draconis Combine x2, Federated Suns, Stone's republic)
  • Chu-Sa Eric Leonards (Draconis Combine)
  • Chu-sa Kim Keyouk (Draconis Combine)
  • Lt. Colonel Henry Grier (Federated Suns)
  • Star Captain Ilena (Ghost Bear)
  • Star Captain Ivanka (Jade Falcon)
  • Major Pedro Tsennig (Free Worlds League)

I'm assuming that all of the panel members are MechWarriors until stated otherwise, and that Khan McKenna is a naval officer.
sounds right so far, and thanks for doing note-taking for me so I don't forget! :)
The core rules for interacting with me:

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2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

paulobrito

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #152 on: 30 November 2020, 19:37:21 »
I just spotted another Cognitohazard Liz dropped.

Stone's plans for the 'Liberation' of Terra, and how they either depended on the defenders demonstrating a level of ineptitude which borders on the imbecilic or that they were drawn up by a ludicrous parcel of driveling galoots who wanted to wreck much of the forces so that the Terran Hegemony Republic of the Sphere in the aftermath would have the most intact forces and be the dominant force in the Inner Sphere (again).

In other words, the game is rigged.

Euphonium

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #153 on: 30 November 2020, 19:38:53 »
sounds right so far, and thanks for doing note-taking for me so I don't forget! :)

Your're welcome!
>>>>[You're only jealous because the voices don't talk to you]<<<<

monbvol

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #154 on: 30 November 2020, 19:52:47 »
I just spotted another Cognitohazard Liz dropped.

Stone's plans for the 'Liberation' of Terra, and how they either depended on the defenders demonstrating a level of ineptitude which borders on the imbecilic or that they were drawn up by a ludicrous parcel of driveling galoots who wanted to wreck much of the forces so that the Terran Hegemony Republic of the Sphere in the aftermath would have the most intact forces and be the dominant force in the Inner Sphere (again).

Using allied/foreign/mercenary troops as ablative assets is nothing new in Battletech.  Hell it's basically Successor Lord Military Management 101.

georgiaboy

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #155 on: 30 November 2020, 20:25:30 »
Just trying to get my head around the cast of this story. Going through the last few posts I get the following:

Prosecutor - Colonel Jerry Haskins (Stone's Forces, former ComStar Demiprecentor & military law professor)

Defence - Linda Sithers, Kowloon Coast Guard

Tribunal Chair - Khan Lynn McKenna (Clan Snow Raven)

Named Panel members
(described as Ghost Bear x2, Wolf, Snow Raven, Jade Falcon, Wolf in Exile, Draconis Combine x2, Federated Suns, Stone's republic)
  • Chu-Sa Eric Leonards (Draconis Combine)
  • Chu-sa Kim Keyouk (Draconis Combine)
  • Lt. Colonel Henry Grier (Federated Suns)
  • Star Captain Ilena (Ghost Bear)
  • Star Captain Ivanka (Jade Falcon)
  • Major Pedro Tsennig (Free Worlds League)
I'm assuming that all of the panel members are MechWarriors until stated otherwise, and that Khan McKenna is a naval officer.

Have I missed anyone?


Why is the Defense allowing a illegal review board to be setted.


First objection would be that the Board is biased to non-Sphere inhabitants via having a clear majority of Clan members, including a Clan member setting as Chair.


Second objection would be that the member setting as representing Stone is not a Member of any recognized government in either the Sphere or the Clans.


annnndddd


The drugs take my chain of thought away again.


my other thought on paper was: the Clans are a illegal government in the eyes of most Sphere governments, since the majority of Sphere governments deem Slavery illegal. (caste delineation is frowned upon in the Inner Sphere, but once a member crosses into another's domain are usually declared free).
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namar13766

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #156 on: 30 November 2020, 20:27:24 »
Using allied/foreign/mercenary troops as ablative assets is nothing new in Battletech.  Hell it's basically Successor Lord Military Management 101.

Oh, that's true, but Stone is supposed to be this pseudo-messiah in how he Delivered the Inner Sphere from the evils of the WOB.

So what is concerning isn't that he used ablative assets to cover his agenda, but rather the fact that this might be the first time they caught onto the fact. So if many of his allies start wondering if previous successes were also similar plans to bleed them out so there wouldn't be any competition, the legitimacy of the ROTS is going to be in question. And if it happens that as a result of the actions of the ROTS, enough evidence piles up that the WOB was running both sides of the Jihad like Palpatine ran the Clone wars...well, people might feel the urge to express their displeasure.

JA Baker

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #157 on: 30 November 2020, 20:45:57 »

Why is the Defense allowing a illegal review board to be setted.


First objection would be that the Board is biased to non-Sphere inhabitants via having a clear majority of Clan members, including a Clan member setting as Chair.


Second objection would be that the member setting as representing Stone is not a Member of any recognized government in either the Sphere or the Clans.


annnndddd


The drugs take my chain of thought away again.


my other thought on paper was: the Clans are a illegal government in the eyes of most Sphere governments, since the majority of Sphere governments deem Slavery illegal. (caste delineation is frowned upon in the Inner Sphere, but once a member crosses into another's domain are usually declared free).
The Clans worship the idea of Terra as this perfect, inviolable jewel of a world, and Liz just went and violated it like a drunken jock on prom night
"That's the thing about invading the Capellan Confederation: half a decade later, you want to invade it again"
-Attributed to First-Prince Hanse Davion, 3030


Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #158 on: 30 November 2020, 21:31:10 »
The Clans worship the idea of Terra as this perfect, inviolable jewel of a world, and Liz just went and violated it like a drunken jock on prom night

If we ever do an "Inner Sphere High School" Liz would probably be that quiet booknerd girl who violates the football jocks on prom night...lol.
The core rules for interacting with me:

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2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

Intermittent_Coherence

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #159 on: 30 November 2020, 21:50:14 »
I just spotted another Cognitohazard Liz dropped.

Stone's plans for the 'Liberation' of Terra, and how they either depended on the defenders demonstrating a level of ineptitude which borders on the imbecilic or that they were drawn up by a ludicrous parcel of driveling galoots who wanted to wreck much of the forces so that the Terran Hegemony Republic of the Sphere in the aftermath would have the most intact forces and be the dominant force in the Inner Sphere (again).
That's not a cognitohazard so much as an unbiased estimation of the plan they came up with. The estimation may be right or wrong, but it's not kicking over anybody's concept of reality.

The idea that Earth/Terra is no more special than any other world, and is thus no more immune than any other world to having extreme militarily expedient measures carried out on it, OTOH.

JA Baker

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #160 on: 30 November 2020, 21:50:21 »
If we ever do an "Inner Sphere High School" Liz would probably be that quiet booknerd girl who violates the football jocks on prom night...lol.
Ah, the Good Old Days of BattleTech 90210  ^-^
"That's the thing about invading the Capellan Confederation: half a decade later, you want to invade it again"
-Attributed to First-Prince Hanse Davion, 3030


mikecj

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #161 on: 30 November 2020, 22:16:34 »

deleted.
« Last Edit: Today at 00:48:24 by mikecj »
There are no fish in my pond.
"First, one brief announcement. I just want to mention, for those who have asked, that absolutely nothing what so ever happened today in sector 83x9x12. I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm." Susan Ivanova
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Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #162 on: 30 November 2020, 22:20:33 »
The concept that Terra was not special to everyone? didn't hit well with the public, either on Terra itself, or among most of the worlds within 30 light years.

the first reaction,  is disbelief.

It's hard to really tolerate the idea that someone doesn't hold the homeworld of mankind in special, elevated regard.  It's been centuries since the outer reaches rebellion, and really, most people have forgotten the attitudes that led to that, and with it, the seeds of their own nations.

It is important to remember that the loudest voices in this phase, don't reflect the actual mood.  For most people in the Inner Sphere, Terra isn't wholly 'holy', it's an abstraction in the back of your mind, leftover from days in school or holovid stories, a distant place disconnected from the reality of life, or even life's concerns.

The Anger that comes after disbelief? that's almost entirely isolated to the upper echelons of society...
The core rules for interacting with me:

1.) I am not a moderator, game developer, member of Cryptic staff, relative of any members of cryptic staff, not close friends with anyone involved with the game, not a distributor of product, not an employee, employer, professional reviewer, or member of any powerful conspiracies.  What I think is my own and has no impact on the Battletech franchise in any way, shape, or form.

2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

Trace Coburn

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #163 on: 30 November 2020, 23:10:43 »
C:-)  MODERATOR INTERVENTION  C:-)

  People, let’s all leave the ‘violated on prom night’ so-called ‘jokes’ to the characters in-story, shall we?  Most of them, at least, have the excuse that they’ve seen and done so much horrific shit, and used black humour as a defence so often against so much, that socially-inappropriate metaphors like that sometimes slip under the radar of their better judgement.  (After all, it’s well-established in-universe that under Kowloonese law, forcible rape gets you a mandatory meeting with an ‘Elbar toothpick’, a fact of which Liz is certainly aware....)
  Posters on these forums, on the other hand, realise (or at least should) that rape jokes are almost never funny or appropriate — certainly not in the context of open discussion here.

idea weenie

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #164 on: 30 November 2020, 23:14:23 »
That's not a cognitohazard so much as an unbiased estimation of the plan they came up with. The estimation may be right or wrong, but it's not kicking over anybody's concept of reality.

At the very least the different military staffs can look over the plan and determine for themselves if the plan was bad.  If they decide plan was bad that is a lot of powerful people realizing that without Liz's Crowbar strikes, a lot more of their troops would be dead for nothing.  If they decide the plan was good, they would be able to present that data to the court and show where Liz's strategists were wrong and why.  This will help improve Liz's strategists for the next time.

Either way, Liz (or at least Kowloon) benefits

Nikas_Zekeval

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #165 on: 30 November 2020, 23:23:38 »
At the very least the different military staffs can look over the plan and determine for themselves if the plan was bad.  If they decide plan was bad that is a lot of powerful people realizing that without Liz's Crowbar strikes, a lot more of their troops would be dead for nothing.  If they decide the plan was good, they would be able to present that data to the court and show where Liz's strategists were wrong and why.  This will help improve Liz's strategists for the next time.

Either way, Liz (or at least Kowloon) benefits

And from what upon examination looks like the only plan was a bad one?  It is easier to argue military necessity in taking out the largest command and control node on the planet to provide the necessary disorganization for an invasion to work at all.  In effect argue Stone's grossly inadequate planning forced Elizabeth to shoot through the human shield hostage to stop the hostage takers are all.

Note Elizabeth pointed out they had the buttons on what I presume are ground to space missile silos in that bunker.  Which means it wasn't just a military threat, but an imminent one to anything trying to take the orbitals.  The LCN couldn't say, clear the space immediately around Terra and then summon the WOB to come out of their Geneva Bunker and surrender.  And it sounded like a set up, besides the human shields, that was proof against orbital bombardment, or at least anything short of a long duration one to dig out the bunker.

mikecj

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #166 on: 30 November 2020, 23:30:10 »
Did Case White happen in this timeline?  WoB nuking Riga & Houston would a counter-argument for the defense or a point for the prosecution- Liz is as bad as WoB?
There are no fish in my pond.
"First, one brief announcement. I just want to mention, for those who have asked, that absolutely nothing what so ever happened today in sector 83x9x12. I repeat, nothing happened. Please remain calm." Susan Ivanova
"Solve a man's problems with violence, help him for a day. Teach a man to solve his problems with violence, help him for a lifetime." - Belkar Bitterleaf
Romo Lampkin could have gotten Stefan Amaris off with a warning.

Korzon77

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #167 on: 30 November 2020, 23:56:38 »
Under any kind of modern law, the fact that an active base was located under geneva was on the WOB, not Liz. If she can prove that it was an active *military* command post, one that had access to WMD's, given teh WOB's willingness to use them, the debate should be over.

Cannonshop

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #168 on: Today at 00:19:40 »
"...of course not.  Christ, the Word of Blake nuked three cities back in '68, we were fairly certain that they would not hesitate to trigger a spoilsport fire mission if we gave them the chance."

"Clarify this for the panel, Sargeant Major, your cutter was part of the intelligence effort?"

"Yes mum." Sergeant Major Tranh Mazerski looked nervous in the witness box, "We were."

"And you emplaced the kinetic impactor designated for Geneva, is this correct?"

"Ayeh Mum.' He said, swallowing.

"on whose orders?"

"That would be Commander Ngo's instructions, mum." he said.

"Were there any countermanding instructions?"

"No mum." he said, as if wishing he could apologize.

"Why did you obey this order?"

"the order was lawful, mum." he said, "Section Thirty six point five, subsection eleven of the Ares conventions, mum."

"Your witness?" Seether said, "I'm through with my redirect."

"Sergeant Major, can you quote that passage?"

"Ayeh sir.  would you like me to?"

"Please do."

the young man closed his eyes, and began.

"Section Three six point fife, paragraph eleven, 'permissible exceptions to the ban on use of orbital weapons on surface targets'..."

"Hold up right there, sailor, are you claiming that a kinetic impactor coming from four light seconds out is an orbital weapon?" Haskins asked.

"Ayeh sir! it's even from outside the seventy five double K limit!"

"How is it an orbital weapon?"

"Sir, it's an orbital weapon because everything in a solar system is orbiting something, sir.  There's no direct provision in any edition of the Ares Conventions for weapons deployed from one orbit to another, but in principle, everything in the Solar System is in an orbit with the sun, sir."

"That...doesn't excuse it, son." Haskins said.

"Oh no sir! what excuses it, is that the military target was intentionally placed in a protected area to make use of that protected status!" the young NCO announced, "It's like when you've got a shooter using a church, or when someone uses a school as cover for artillery positions!"

"The scale is bigger." Haskins pointed out, "The convention as amended in 2743..."

"warn't ratified." Tranh said, "Votes on the Star League council aside, per the Star League treaty, alterations to the Ares Conventions had to be ratified by all signatory states, the only one what did, is the Federated Suns, and that warn't until 2764, it was defeated in the Free Worlds  Parliaiment by a fifty percent plus one vote, the Estates General tabled it to see what everyone else was doing, an' the Dracs outright refused. The only nation that ratified asides the Feddies, was the Terran Hegemony."

"Where did you learn this, was it in a briefing or-"

"Extension courses, I'm studying for officer's training, sir.  Can't be a nuke-tech or surface grunt forever, yanno."

"Oh-kay...and how many credit hours have you got left?"

"Fifteen credits until I get my bachelor's, sir, but Ares conventions was on the last set of tests before we deployed."

"I see...What did you feel when you emplaced that weapon?"

Tranh looked at the ceiling for a moment, then met the Prosecutor's eyes, "My company commander found me in the head on the support ship after the strike, sir.  She took my sidearm.  I was almost ready to eat it...sir. had the showers going to wash the blood away and everything."

"Why?"

"because there were people in the target zone, sir.  People who didn't deserve what we sent them...people whose leaders put them there as ablative armor, sir...but it was still innocent people." his face tightened,  "They've got me talking to a chaplain weekly, sir, and I haven't tried to kill myself since."

"is this common, Sergeant Major?"

"What. guilt? look ******, none of us signed up to fight an apocalypse!  Most of the Marines signed up to protect people, punish bad actors, and defend, or avenge, the Innocent.  I lost a brother on the Alarion recon, because they couldn't risk bringing back what killed that world.  I knew it would hurt, when I input the nav data, I had weeks to realize how much I wanted to input the abort codes, and I did my damned job.  I did it because it had to be done, because they were set up to kill more innocent people.  That bunker complex was set up to run a second strike spoilsport fire mission and it was in the hands of the kind of people who would out of spite."

"You're assigning motivations, what gives you grounds?" Haskins asked.

"Have you ever interrogated a Manei Domini, Colonel? because I've seen it.  They don't feel guilt, Colonel.  That part of their mind is the first thing they cut out when they install the cybernetics.  It's like interrogating a psychopath, they feel no guilt or restraint over doing what they do, to them, everything is justified.  That's the kind of people holding that bunker, holding the keys to what we counted out as being over a thousand missile batteries scattered across six continents.  You don't give that kind a chance to pull the trigger, and just like when your sniper mission is to stop a hostage taker and the only shot you've got is through one of the hostages before he detonates to kill the rest? you take the ****** shot, and then you live with the guilt for the innocent you had to kill to stop him!"

"Would you, if you had the choice now?" Haskins asked.

"What?"

"Stop it, send the code."

"No sir. because I did my damn job, ten billion people are alive to protest instead of dead or radiation sick." Tran said quietly, "but you know, that doesn't really make the nightmare stop, it just makes it a little bit bearable with proper support."


The core rules for interacting with me:

1.) I am not a moderator, game developer, member of Cryptic staff, relative of any members of cryptic staff, not close friends with anyone involved with the game, not a distributor of product, not an employee, employer, professional reviewer, or member of any powerful conspiracies.  What I think is my own and has no impact on the Battletech franchise in any way, shape, or form.

2) If you don't like something I've said, refer to rule 1.  If you do, god help you poor soul, you're screwed up.

arcticwyrm245

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #169 on: Today at 00:24:19 »
While it is good that everyone is arguing the logic and reasoning behind the trial, I think a point we should really focus on is the political. It got touched on a few times but the ultimate point of this trial is a political one, sure it will have judicial repercussions but the immediate atmosphere is political as Cannonshop pointed out. Most of the upper level Terran political establishment has it out for Liz, whether her flip the table card is going to be enough to get what she wants will be seen. I for one enjoy the soon to be depth charge dropped onto humanity's psyche. Lets see if it was a miss or it cracks Liz's submarine cool and she gets sent to the bottom. I also will enjoy seeing if the Jade Falcon plan is going to go into play. 

More about the whole breaking the terra centric mentality, reminds me of a Babylon 5/Legend of Galactic Heroes crossover on SB or was it SV. TLDR was about the discussion on whether a society can advance culturally and socially if it still holds its homeworld in reverence, really liking that being explored.

Derain Von Harken

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #170 on: Today at 00:39:11 »
And we have not gotten to the Good stuff yet. Its looking more and more like the jade falcon. Intervention could happen if a conviction is put through now. Although there are a few points the prosecution could use to point out circumstances liz did not know which would have made stones plan work. Though that opens a whole new can of worms.
 What will come out in the trial may welll be more politically damaging than whether liz gets jailed or not.
« Last Edit: Today at 00:40:42 by Derain Von Harken »

glitterboy2098

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Re: Silent enim inter arma: Tribunals
« Reply #171 on: Today at 01:01:18 »
i don;t see how the prosecution can push the official plan as a positive thing.. to get the effect they'd need they couldn't be relying on infiltrated agents, since that would require suborning most of the planet's defensive personnel. if they admit to planning to use orbital bombardments to take out the WoB planetary defense, they are admitting to planning warcrimes as great as what Liz did in terms of civilian lives lost (which is the main charge here, remember)
nor could they admit to planning for nuclear strikes for the same reason.

and those are the only three options that would make such a plan as described work without assuming either it being planned for failure (to grind down Stone's own allies) or it being part of a WoB ploy to install a puppet regime.

so really, the battle plan issue is a lose-lose for Stones Coalition here. no matter what they claim regarding it, it is bad for them. they're either incompetent, duplicitous, working for the enemy, or just as bad as the people they're fighting. and none of the four outcomes is good for the image they are trying to project to the rest of the inner sphere.