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Author Topic: Cold war AU(Pre-spaceflight/Early Spacflight AU) Senario idea thread.  (Read 218 times)

Izzy193

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Now this is an AU senario of what if primitive battlemechs and prototype versions of certain Introtech components were available in the Cold war era. what kind of chaos would ensue? now I will put down the restrictions for tech for these mech and vehicle designs. You have a choice of two factions, the Warsaw pact and NATO. I may expand it to neutral powers as well like the late cold war PRC,etc. but for now the tech restrictions for construction and useage.

Tech Restrictions:
Anything that is stated to Pre or Early Spaceflight.
Prototype versions of energy and Balistic weapons are Allowed.
All Basic LRM's and SRM's are allowed.
Primitve Battlemech technology only.
Primtive Combat Vehicles allowed.
No ASF.

So how would you like to try out something like this? I know this is the crack/insane idea. but it's something I wanted to try at some point. I ma also aware under canon this is illegal under canon construction rules. I am considering on making a PVP campaign based around this(when I have the aproriate books).


Daryk

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I think artillery still wins...  ^-^

Failure16

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Artillery always wins.

Having said that, it is hard to model Cold War military actions due to the paucity and relative inefficacy of BTU artillery systems and employment.

If you are using the historical/our Cold War as an opening paradigm, you only need to concern yourself with NATO/WarPac gear, really. Sure, other countries made things too, but much of it (especially PRC gear) was really just a variation of a theme started with the major powers.

For ease of use by potential contributors, I'd probably just use 3025 equipment with primitive, ProtoMech,and/or BA gear added to increase the breadth of options. Or you can just start making custom weapons. Which used to be okay with HMV, but maybe not as user-friendly with the tools available today.

For real fun, institute a Threshold Rule where a given location imparts a 10% bar (like AeroTech does or at least used to do) and weapons surpass it for a critical chance on a 1-10 basis (e.g. a location with 45 armor will be thresholded by a large laser but not a medium). Then you will see a natural inclination towards fewer large-caliber weapons and increased armor across the board.

No need for a Schrek's triple PPCs if the loss of a gun keeps you from being thresholded through your glacis every turn by a Pike--or Vedette...

That will get you your real-world flavor.
« Last Edit: 20 November 2022, 13:35:03 by Failure16 »
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

Daryk

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Quoted for TRVTH!
Artillery always wins.
*snip*

Izzy193

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Artillery always wins.

Having said that, it is hard to model Cold War military actions due to the paucity and relative inefficacy of BTU artillery systems and employment.

If you are using the historical/our Cold War as an opening paradigm, you only need to concern yourself with NATO/WarPac gear, really. Sure, other countries made things too, but much of it (especially PRC gear) was really just a variation of a theme started with the major powers.

For ease of use by potential contributors, I'd probably just use 3025 equipment with primitive, ProtoMech,and/or BA gear added to increase the breadth of options. Or you can just start making custom weapons. Which used to be okay with HMV, but maybe not as user-friendly with the tools available today.

For real fun, institute a Threshold Rule where a given location imparts a 10% bar (like AeroTech does or at least used to do) and weapons surpass it for a critical chance on a 1-10 basis (e.g. a location with 45 armor will be thresholded by a large laser but not a medium). Then you will see a natural inclination towards fewer large-caliber weapons and increased armor across the board.

No need for a Schrek's triple PPCs if the loss of a gun keeps you from being thresholded through your glacis every turn by a Pike--or Vedette...

That will get you your real-world flavor.

Thank you for the suggestions I'll keep them in mind, at the moment I am refining the tech level(s) for certain equipment over the course of this dynamic PVP campaign. with Tech levels from 0-3(0=Primitive technology,1=Standard Tech,2=Advanced and 3= experimental tech). which equipment would change tech level(s) one or more ove the course of this Cold war AU. for example 3025 era equipment and primitive/retrotech unit construction would be considerd level 1 tech in early stages but slowly move down to tech level 0 over the course of the campaign. the lower the tech level a peice of construction/equipment is the more widely available it is.

Daryk

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Rocket Launchers at least should START at 0...  ::)

Gorgon

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Have you thought about using thunderbolt missles? They feel more like cold war weapons (or real-world weapons) than SRMs and LRMs. Maybe thunderbolts and rocket launchers as default missile weapons? Especially when using some kind of BAR / threshold system thunderbolts act a lot more like RL anti tank systems.
Jude Melancon lives!

Failure16

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True on both counts. Rocket Launchers and Thunderbolts for the win. Especially the original OS Thunderbolt. Ouch!
Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was a child.          We are the wild youth, 
But it was a lie, that I told myself                                          Chasing visions of our futures.
When I needed something good.                                            One day we'll reveal the truth,
At 17, I had a better dream; now I'm 33, and it isn't me.        That one will die before he gets there.

But I'd think of something better if I could
                           --E. Tonra
--A. Duritz

DevianID

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So I did a lot of futzing about for battletech 2300 covering a lot of similar ground for the stuff that would be around for the terran hegemony terran alliance war.  More or less and excuse to use interstellar ops and go crazy.

If you do something something similar, you have industrial 'primitive warmechs' which get a few more penalties compared to normal industrial mechs, but they existed long before primitive battlemechs.  They are the first thing that gets "free" engine heat sinks, and the medium and small lasers are JUST out of primitive stage.  So these early warmechs are great medium laser platforms.  You can make a pretty convincing primitive industrial mech archer at 3/5 speed for example.

Vees are all built with support bee rules.  This meant I had 3 tiers or 'blocks' for each vee at tech B, tech c, and cutting edge tech D with 1-2 fancy compoments that existed by 2300.

TechB is 1950s cold war stuff, but since I included anything that was tech B, you also get I-os missiles.  An i-os lrm5 and i-os srm2 are the missiles of the era, along with rockets.  The iOS srm2 with heat seaker ammo in particular makes a fantastic sidewinder stand in on jets.

Tech C is post 2000 stuff.  So you can get an engine not powered by gas/ice and can mount higher grade BAR.  The armor on a tech C tank is much lighter at BAR6 unlike the tech B super dense stuff representing the 90s and their love of depleted uranium to bolster the 60s era chobam. You also get the autocannon, which may not punch like a rifle in this era of BAR armor, but it has great ammo endurance and most importantly flak ammo.  Airpower is super op in the early days as bombs haven't changed much at all, so flak ammo is godly.  All primitive aircraft have BAR 1 armor or worse as they dont get normal thresholds until way in the future with bar 10.  So a 2 damage ac2 threshholds any aircraft in existence, and the ac5 flak is even better as the cluster on flak is much more consistent at causing threshholds.  Flak ammo is also better versus infantry then any other long range gun, so quad flak ac2s can deal with infantry safer then almost anything other then artillery.

Finally, infantry and artillery.  The humble autorifle is crazy solid DPS for tech C infantry.  Tech B have to make due with rifles and mortars as you would expect 1950 infantry to do.  But artillery is king.  Thumpers and long tom has stupid high damage for the era... 15 damage when the next best is the heavy rifle at 9.  With 5 damage cluster size, heavy armor on tanks can take some hits but everything else gets shredded.  So you have a nice balance of tanks with BAR crushing cannons, infantry for dps, and artillery for fire support.

I recommend real world levels of artillery if you continue this.  So 1 thumper tube per company, one lance/battery per 4 company battalion.  Otherwise you devolve into 100% artillery and bombers.

Edit: for a starting point when designing units, the tech B abrams accelerates 0-20mph in 7 seconds.  This barely is enough to displace 2 hexes in 10 seconds.  So the abrams, a fast tank with its turbine, goes 2/3 with the poor performance quirk.  It eventually goes pretty fast with Sprint plus road plus gps, not counting unit or pilot skills for extra speed.  But yeah, a fast tech B tank is 2/3 poor performance.  The rumored t14 which hasnt actually hit real production is 10+ tons lighter with the ability to supercharge its engine at the cost of greatly reduced longevity.  So a techC tank that doesn't actually exist yet in production can barely hit 3/5 speed by being able to displace 3 hexes max in 10 seconds.  Some cutting edge apcs/ifv exist now that can hit 3/5, again with the poor performance quirk as always.  So try and avoid super fast accelerating tanks if you are near future analog, tanks that want to shoot arnt ripping at 50mph off road and take a long time to get to that speed if even possible.
« Last Edit: 24 November 2022, 06:50:16 by DevianID »

Daryk

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I certainly agree with the Poor Performance quirk, but I think top speeds point more to 4/6 for Abrams at least (making 7 with the road bonus).

DevianID

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Re: Cold war AU(Pre-spaceflight/Early Spacflight AU) Senario idea thread.
« Reply #10 on: 27 November 2022, 05:40:12 »
The top speed of an abrams that moves 2/3, with optional rules, is 4 for sprint, 5 for road, 6 for gps right?  So thats 64 kph.  The actual m1a2 hits 67 kph.  Lighter versions like the earlier m1 with lighter gun and much less armor, or ones with supercharged turbines which lower the engines lifecycle, can go faster but the listed speed is 42 mph.

Making an abrams go 4/6 is saying they can move 4 hexes in a turn from a stop.  They can barely do half that, 4/6 is that magic.  It takes them 30 seconds to go from a stop to max speed with a perfect acceleration curve as spec'd and in that 30 seconds they move a total of 9.3 hexes.  So 2/3 is pretty generous honestly as in btech on turn 3 when they can sprint, they go faster then 9 hexes in 3 turns due to the road plus GPS bonuses.  Without the free speed on turn 3 with poor performance the 2/3 abrams would go 2 plus 3 plus 4 hexes, meaning its off road movement is crazy higher then the real world off road abrams 3 turn speed which sees 270 meters moved off road from a stop in 30 seconds as downright ripping fast.  2/3/4 cruise/flank/sprint speed has a momentum to it that matches almost 1:1 with a real tank.

Anyway, point is that the time scale is often overlooked when people look at stats like top speed instead of fighting speed and engagement time, which is why I wanted to point out that a fast tech B tank is speed 2/3 in the real world using the battletech movement scale.  Also, as I understand 30kph is what the army considers a realistic battlefield speed, but tanks even with motion stabilization still stop to shoot that bit more accurately.
« Last Edit: 27 November 2022, 06:11:55 by DevianID »

Daryk

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Re: Cold war AU(Pre-spaceflight/Early Spacflight AU) Senario idea thread.
« Reply #11 on: 27 November 2022, 06:38:26 »
I'm hesitant to include Sprinting in the calculation because you can't shoot while you're Sprinting.  Good point about modern units preferring to stop, but they don't have to (and there's a penalty to firing for moving at Cruise/Flank that models that).  All that said, you've definitely talked me down from 4/6, but I'm liking 3/5 over 2/3 at the moment.

DevianID

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Re: Cold war AU(Pre-spaceflight/Early Spacflight AU) Senario idea thread.
« Reply #12 on: 27 November 2022, 07:56:58 »
Cool!  If we only include core rules, so just cruise/flank plus 1 for road, then 3/5 plus road maxes at the speed limit of 6hexes/turn, it just does it really fast as there isnt the extra step in speed from poor performance going from flank to Sprint.  In 30 seconds on a race track a 3/5 abrams would go 4+6+6 hexes for 16.   2/3 without sprint would go 3+4+4 for 11.  The actual m1a2 on a non combat racetrack gunning it did 12.5 hexes in 30 seconds thanks to a 32.1 second quarter mile time getting the tank only to 38.8 mph.

So 3\5 is still too fast but 2/3 is too slow without advanced rules.

So at that point it's a choice of better representing the first 30 seconds of movement at the expense of its max core rules speed(2/3 is closer to accurate for acceleration) or better representing the top speed in core rules (3/5 +1 is the absolute fastest the tank can go irl) at the expense of the momentum/weight of the tank as it doubles the tank power to weight ratio from IRL.

Daryk

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Re: Cold war AU(Pre-spaceflight/Early Spacflight AU) Senario idea thread.
« Reply #13 on: 27 November 2022, 07:59:46 »
Don't forget the Arbams' engine has a governor... there's more power there to tap...  ^-^

DevianID

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Re: Cold war AU(Pre-spaceflight/Early Spacflight AU) Senario idea thread.
« Reply #14 on: 27 November 2022, 09:31:13 »
Yeah kinda.  The governer was put on cause without it you destroy the track life and wreck the crews bodies.  It's like MASC kinda but backwards.  The governor also doesn't change the agility and HP of the tank, which is what I based my speed on... Just the top speed to a level that isn't ruining the machine.

It's why I dont like top speed as a useful measure for porting stats to btech as it ignores all the lead up time spent in straight predictable lines.  The hellcat car has a 200 plus top speed, so 30 hexes/turn.  But in 10 seconds on a straight road it goes 8/12+1 for a 10.7 second quarter mile time.  Going 13 hexes representing the 10 second quarter mile is a much better analog for btech speed and real world handling (to me anway) then saying the sports car has 20/30 speed just looking at its potential top speed.  Like, it definately doesn't have 30 usable MP in btech which includes turning 180 and making any kind of turn you want on non-skiddable terrain regardless of what the top speed says.  Same as an abrams imho... You can't take an abrams going 42 mph/6 hexes and do a 180 and start going the other way 3 hexes 10 seconds later next turn, but 3/5+1 let's you do that.

I digress.  Back to the op, for me the speeds I used were
Tech B 2/3 ''60 ton fast tank'
Tech C 3/5 '60 ton fast tank'
Tech D 4/6 '60 ton fast tank' Bulldog/Manticore
Tech E 5/8 '60 ton fast tank' XL fusion engines

Making tech B tanks planes and infantry was a ton of fun.  My theory scenarios kinda split the factions by tech base, so the tech B faction were the colonies, tech C was the proto great houses, and tech D was terran alliance.  Going with a cold war style you'd probably eliminate the tech D stuff, leaving tech C as the 'high tech faction'.  As long as you balance by battlevalue (and don't spam artillery like I originally mentioned) the more numerous TechB faction will definitely feel the power gap versus tech C, from infantry to tanks to planes, but tech C will have fewer units.

Daryk

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Re: Cold war AU(Pre-spaceflight/Early Spacflight AU) Senario idea thread.
« Reply #15 on: 27 November 2022, 09:49:37 »
3/5+1 works for me!  :thumbsup:

I think the only thing the focus on 60-ton tanks loses is that higher tech lets you pack the same firepower in a (much) lighter package (the Mini- and Micro-StuGs in my sig-block refer).

 

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