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Author Topic: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread  (Read 52712 times)

Liam's Ghost

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #600 on: 22 January 2022, 22:15:13 »
Which furthers my disbelief, considering it was used *against* mongol-esque Hells Horses.

That's umm... a very reductive way of seeing things.
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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #601 on: 22 January 2022, 22:15:33 »
Which furthers my disbelief, considering it was used *against* mongol-esque Hells Horses.

As we all know, being familiar with a tactic makes you completely immune to it in practice.  Traps have never been sprung on prepared opponents.
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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #602 on: 22 January 2022, 22:16:53 »
If the Horses had no respect for the Falcons left behind on Sudeten, then I'd say they were not truly prepared.

BrianDavion

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #603 on: 22 January 2022, 22:26:43 »
If the Horses had no respect for the Falcons left behind on Sudeten, then I'd say they were not truly prepared.
'
agreed. the horses expected to be fighting senile old men and children. they basicly didn't expect the falcons to be competant or competantly lead

Negatorxx

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #604 on: 22 January 2022, 22:36:17 »
"I R GUD CLANNER" as an excuse to be incompetent just isnt interesting anymore (as a reader), and hasnt been since Tukayyid.
« Last Edit: 22 January 2022, 22:39:34 by Negatorxx »
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nckestrel

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #605 on: 22 January 2022, 23:01:14 »
NM.  No point in my own beating a dead horse.
« Last Edit: 22 January 2022, 23:02:56 by nckestrel »
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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #606 on: 22 January 2022, 23:01:45 »
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that it is, or that it's what happened here.  In fact I'd say the majority of people in this thread recently are suggesting that what happened is interesting and isn't because the Horses are incompetent.
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BrianDavion

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #607 on: 22 January 2022, 23:13:13 »
"I R GUD CLANNER" as an excuse to be incompetent just isnt interesting anymore (as a reader), and hasnt been since Tukayyid.

this isn't even a matter of them being clanners, it's them having poor intelligence and getting over confidant. the horses belived their opponents would be the dregs of the military, washed up garrison fighters or no real talent. (and frankly outside of sudeten they weren't wrong eaither) an inner Sphere power could well have made the same error. it was a classic case of simply not expecting any real oppisition

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #608 on: 22 January 2022, 23:22:29 »
They weren't wrong on Sudeten either, is the thing.  That was dregs, guided by a competent and inspiring commander.
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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #609 on: 22 January 2022, 23:38:34 »
As we all know, being familiar with a tactic makes you completely immune to it in practice.  Traps have never been sprung on prepared opponents.

That's why Hanse Davion didn't fall for Teddy Kurita's trick during the War of 39... wait.
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Negatorxx

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #610 on: 22 January 2022, 23:39:31 »
this isn't even a matter of them being clanners, it's them having poor intelligence and getting over confidant. the horses belived their opponents would be the dregs of the military, washed up garrison fighters or no real talent. (and frankly outside of sudeten they weren't wrong eaither) an inner Sphere power could well have made the same error. it was a classic case of simply not expecting any real oppisition

You missed the point.
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Frank

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #611 on: 22 January 2022, 23:48:13 »
Really loved this book. Cannot wait to get my hands on a physical copy of it and the maps to boot.
I say the Lyran state is in for a even longer rough ride thanks to the fallout from the ILclan events. Given how badly damage they are from 2 very aggressive clans. It will take a long time for them to recover.

Cannot wait to see what the next 2 books bring.
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rebs

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #612 on: 22 January 2022, 23:58:12 »
"I R GUD CLANNER" as an excuse to be incompetent just isnt interesting anymore (as a reader), and hasnt been since Tukayyid.

Now you are simply posting silliness.  There is no explanation or reason in this post that I've quoted. 

I agree to disagree.  Good day, sir.

BrianDavion

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #613 on: 23 January 2022, 01:49:49 »
You missed the point.

then your point was insufficantly clear for me, perhaps you could expand on it a bit to clairfy?

Elmoth

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #614 on: 23 January 2022, 03:43:14 »
Regarding thqe dropship, this is an iberia A340 that landed in quito in 2018. It came in too fast and overshot the runway before braking completely. When the experts arrived it was written off as total wreckage despite it being OK except from some repairable stuff, specially in the landing gear and engines. Age of the craft, and the difficulty to get the supplies there marked this.

So, you can have wreckages that do not look like a meteor landed on the dripship.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2022, 03:45:18 by Elmoth »

cray

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #615 on: 23 January 2022, 08:47:00 »
For mech production, I would imagine having the weapons systems required would be the harder than having the raw materials needed for bare chassis production, unless said weapons are made on planet as well.

Yep. Advanced components like engines and guns are a bottleneck because of the shortage of places that can build them. Techs can slap together 'Mechs from spare parts with a crane - building the components is harder.

I know it's the Deep Lore the we try to forget, but I'm pretty sure that 12/year was "low" even in he darkest depths of the Succession Wars and would make it effectively impossible for any factory to meet the MUL requirements for multiple faction representation in less than five years - and that's pushing it.

Understood, I was just thinking of ye olde House SBs. But even 120 'Mechs a year isn't going to be a huge draw on raw materials.
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Kitsune413

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #616 on: 23 January 2022, 10:00:38 »
I think it goes without saying they probably won't get the economic victory.

What are they buying that for? I don't understand their medium and long term goals.

Sorry for the late reply on this one, it's been a week and I needed a reference.

Quote
“It is not really difficult.” Petr shrugged, then flexed his left leg to counteract the imparted spin. “Everyone—Clan or spheroid—does what they do because they believe it will gain them that which they want. Discover what they want, and why, and everything else becomes clear.” “I believe you have just revealed a core belief of the Sea Fox.” “We have never claimed it was a secret,” Petr acknowledged solemnly. “Just that it is honorable.”

Quote from, "To ride the Chimera."

Clan Sea Fox wants to win. They've always done so believing they can cooperate with the others.

This puts them in an odd place in a wargame, ideally your faction gets to fight others in order for you as a player to be engaged. So, it can be a little frustrating in that regard.

But that doesn't mean the economic victory doesn't work. It's worked out for Lyrans for centuries, they have incompetent military leadership but they didn't pay for it until the Dark Age. Also keep in mind the Sea Foxes didn't like the Falcons and the Falcons aren't around anymore.

Though I get the feeling they wouldn't be so against the new occupation zone Falcons.
« Last Edit: 23 January 2022, 10:03:43 by Kitsune413 »
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Jal Phoenix

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #617 on: 23 January 2022, 10:05:36 »
I know it's the Deep Lore the we try to forget, but I'm pretty sure that 12/year was "low" even in he darkest depths of the Succession Wars

The original TRO 3055 remains a source of wonder, including FASA thinking that giving out yearly production numbers for several 'Mechs was a good idea. Naginata: 10 per year. Rakshasa: 6 per year. Salamander: 9 in existence. Bandersnatch: 6 in existence. I thought that this was ridiculously low even in 1992. Luckily, so did FASA.

rebs

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #618 on: 23 January 2022, 10:19:18 »
FASAnomics in action?

shinr

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #619 on: 23 January 2022, 14:42:30 »
Reminds me of those Battletech 2018 complains of cutscenes showing battles on the Coromodir/Final Planet "too big and epic" for the Periphery. IMO, they only seem big compared to the usual 3SW and Merc skirmishes, and I've no doubt that even the smaller 4SW battles would easily dwarf that.

But back to the thread topic:

My prediction is that Trillian would take on Brewer and his Vesper Marches first and succeed (with Brewer, annoyingly, again fleeing to live another day), showing that she means business and will try to leverage this to at least make the Hounds and Tamar pay lip service to the Commonwealth.


bobthecoward

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #620 on: 23 January 2022, 14:47:29 »
Sorry for the late reply on this one, it's been a week and I needed a reference.

Quote from, "To ride the Chimera."

Clan Sea Fox wants to win. They've always done so believing they can cooperate with the others.

This puts them in an odd place in a wargame, ideally your faction gets to fight others in order for you as a player to be engaged. So, it can be a little frustrating in that regard.

But that doesn't mean the economic victory doesn't work. It's worked out for Lyrans for centuries, they have incompetent military leadership but they didn't pay for it until the Dark Age. Also keep in mind the Sea Foxes didn't like the Falcons and the Falcons aren't around anymore.

Though I get the feeling they wouldn't be so against the new occupation zone Falcons.

Let me rephrase.

It didn't help the lyrans take over the inner sphere or become the ilhouse. It did lead to exceptionally high standards of living on the planets they had.

Are they trying to maximize standard of living? Are they trying to maximize martial strength? Do they want to have 10 planets? 100? 500?

I understand they believe commerce will lead them to success. But I don't know what success looks like to the.

Hussar2

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #621 on: 23 January 2022, 14:54:19 »
I just want to thank all the people involved with creating this book!
The writing is wonderful and the attention to old lore and tidbits is amazing.
Even though the only faction I care for in this book are the Hell's Horses and they had their rear end handed to them I still can't remember a sourcebook that I have enjoyed so much.

BrianDavion

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #622 on: 23 January 2022, 15:06:58 »
Let me rephrase.

It didn't help the lyrans take over the inner sphere or become the ilhouse. It did lead to exceptionally high standards of living on the planets they had.

Are they trying to maximize standard of living? Are they trying to maximize martial strength? Do they want to have 10 planets? 100? 500?

I understand they believe commerce will lead them to success. But I don't know what success looks like to the.

one thing to consider is at the end of tamar rising the foxes have reactivated an HPG, if they can do thius to the entire network and sldie into the position comstar of old once had that's an INSANELY good position to be in.

bobthecoward

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #623 on: 23 January 2022, 15:10:09 »
one thing to consider is at the end of tamar rising the foxes have reactivated an HPG, if they can do thius to the entire network and sldie into the position comstar of old once had that's an INSANELY good position to be in.

be in...to do what? Are they using the money to build an army? by more planets? maximize wealth? Building pyramids to entomb their Khans?

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #624 on: 23 January 2022, 15:11:55 »
My prediction is that Trillian would take on Brewer and his Vesper Marches first and succeed (with Brewer, annoyingly, again fleeing to live another day), showing that she means business and will try to leverage this to at least make the Hounds and Tamar pay lip service to the Commonwealth.

I think there could be another way out for Brewer, which is hinted in his bio...

"he worries privately about his standing on Hesperus
II, and how he will manage leadership of his new realm and
maintain control over his far-away homeworld."


Trillian could offer a return to his ducal position on Hesperus II. Though an uneasy truce, it would work. The Hesperus Guards could be stripped of transports (not a big deal these days...) transformed into a new DSPF, and a tight LCAF security established. Showing mercy and a willingness to recover lost territory would go a long way reintegrating Tamar and Arc Royal.

I mean, they are Kell Hounds... as long as you do not act stupidly against them, they will return to the Commonwealth sooner or later. Same with the GDL. And then Tamar is a matter of time, too, though some force might be needed.

There are a lot of ways to end well for the Commonwealth. But TPTB seem to have decided the Lyrans are stupid. The sheer number of idiotic Lyran behaviour in this book makes a beneficial solution of the crisis unlikely.


PS: when was the last great Lyran victory? Götterdämmerung in the late 80ies/3020ies? Counting not being annihiliated as 'victory' was irksome for a few decades (irl). Now it is plain boring.

Scotty

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #625 on: 23 January 2022, 15:27:49 »
The Great Refusal was pretty significantly Lyran involved.
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VensersRevenge

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #626 on: 23 January 2022, 15:31:31 »
And they clearly benefited a lot from it. Taking back planets, preventing the Jade Falcons from invading again, a sense of national pride that united them around their leadership...
...Is this just fantasy?
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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #627 on: 23 January 2022, 15:39:01 »
From a practical standpoint the only IS faction that benefited from Bulldog/Serpent/Great Refusal was the Combine.

The Confederation benefited indirectly and the FedSuns and Lyrans suffered.

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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #628 on: 23 January 2022, 15:52:24 »
I mean, they are Kell Hounds... as long as you do not act stupidly against them, they will return to the Commonwealth sooner or later. Same with the GDL.
The problem is the part in bold. They acted stupidly and that's part of how we ended up with GDL.
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Re: Arcturus vs Everyone: The Tamar Rising Discussion Thread
« Reply #629 on: 23 January 2022, 15:54:49 »
The problem is the part in bold. They acted stupidly and that's part of how we ended up with GDL.

I wish I could disagree... Yeah, the TPTB are not exactly smiling on the Lyrans these days. Or the past days. Or years...


The Great Refusal was pretty significantly Lyran involved.
But even then it was not solely the 10th Lyran Guards, TPTB mixed in a lance of Kathil Uhlans (and a Periphery princess).

...which is ok for the narrative purpose of that scenario but I have trouble accepting it as Götterdämmerung-equivalent.

 

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