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Author Topic: Benefit of a Gunner  (Read 1407 times)

Prospernia

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Benefit of a Gunner
« on: 18 August 2022, 22:16:52 »
So, the Battlemaster (Bigfoot), has two-seats for a cockpit; so that means there a pilot and a gunner. 

So, what benefit would a pilot and a gunner have for a mech?

In simple game-terms, I can see that it would increase the chances of having a good pilot and gunnery-skill, as you would naturally put whoever rolled the best piloting-skill as the pilot and vice-versa. 

Some other benefits of a gunnery would be to increase the chances of a mech noticing units, if that's a thing in your games.

Maybe a bonus to initiative?  The ability to target a specific-location?   

One drawback would be the gunner would take up the only slot in the Head-location and could get knocked-out with critical.

ThePW

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #1 on: 18 August 2022, 22:29:14 »
Ahem...

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Cockpit_Command_Console

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Dual_Cockpit

CCs are currently legal, DCs being not legal for tournament play.


General308

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #2 on: 18 August 2022, 22:30:22 »
Most Battlemasters do not have a two seat cockpit.  The very few varriants that do are rare and have what is called a command console and the rules for that are in Tacops. 

Geg

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #3 on: 19 August 2022, 08:25:54 »
CCs are currently legal

Still?   With the pushing of that rule into TacOps or Quirks, I would have thought it dead and buried

Daryk

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #4 on: 19 August 2022, 08:28:56 »
TacOps rules are dead and buried? ???

Ghaz

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pokefan548

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #6 on: 19 August 2022, 08:40:31 »
Don't forget...

https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Design_Quirks#Rumble_Seat_.5BBT.5D
True, but the passenger doesn't really provide any benefits outside of very fluffy play. Or I guess VIP escort missions.
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TheoLehman

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #7 on: 19 August 2022, 08:45:24 »
I believe the BattleMasters that formerly had Dual Cockpits have been errata'd to have Cockpit Command Consoles instead.  Those rules are found in Tactical Operations.
These BattleMaster variants are identified by the -DC after the model number.

Ghaz

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #8 on: 19 August 2022, 08:46:29 »
True, but the passenger doesn't really provide any benefits outside of very fluffy play. Or I guess VIP escort missions.

It doesn't have to provide a benefit (more than a few Quirks are like that) but it does explain that the larger cockpit does not have to be a Dual Cockpit or Command Console.

BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #9 on: 19 August 2022, 09:00:24 »
Modern fighter aircraft are going from two-seat configurations to mostly single-seat configurations.  It seems that's the way BattleTech is currently going, which is one of the few RL technology trends it's actually following  :D  The command console is not allowing two pilots to fight at once, but for one of them to be able to command from the front line, focusing on using battlefield combat computers and communications systems while there's a pilot who's doing the fighting.

I don't think it really makes sense to have a command console on a battlemech fighting on the front line if mobile HQ vehicles exist to do the same thing out of range of weapons (except for artillery or air strikes  ;D).  Seems like a really risky thing to have out front and fighting.
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nckestrel

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #10 on: 19 August 2022, 09:03:18 »
Command 'Mechs can run away over terrain a mobile HQ can't traverse.  :)
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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #11 on: 19 August 2022, 09:10:16 »
You also get the benefit of a redundant pilot. If a Command Console 'Mech's pilot fails one of the consciousness rolls, the commander can drop his usual bonuses to take control to either high-tail it out of there, or at least perform some basic self-defense and keep the 'Mech from being immobile long enough for the pilot to wake back up.
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BATTLEMASTER

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #12 on: 19 August 2022, 09:21:08 »
Command 'Mechs can run away over terrain a mobile HQ can't traverse.  :)

You also get the benefit of a redundant pilot. If a Command Console 'Mech's pilot fails one of the consciousness rolls, the commander can drop his usual bonuses to take control to either high-tail it out of there, or at least perform some basic self-defense and keep the 'Mech from being immobile long enough for the pilot to wake back up.

That's true.

For kicks I looked up command console-equipped 'mechs in MegaMek and found seven BattleMaster variants equipped as such.
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SteelRaven

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #13 on: 19 August 2022, 10:54:19 »
Command 'Mechs can run away over terrain a mobile HQ can't traverse.  :)

True, Battlemechs are also more survivable.
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Geg

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #14 on: 19 August 2022, 11:31:10 »
TacOps rules are dead and buried? ???

I don't think I have ever seen a tournament or a matched play setup that allows for rules beyond the BMM/TW.

Daryk

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #15 on: 19 August 2022, 11:39:49 »
Ah, I haven't seen a tournament since last century...

nckestrel

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #16 on: 19 August 2022, 12:32:28 »
I don't think I have ever seen a tournament or a matched play setup that allows for rules beyond the BMM/TW.

Atlantic City Open did?
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AlphaMirage

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #17 on: 19 August 2022, 15:34:59 »
I was at the AC Open it was basically all BMM except for quirks.

You also do have the (normal-weight) Tripods which have I believe a distinct over-under cockpit with pilot and gunner. Superheavies have three. Dual Cockpit does basically make your pilot and gunner one better so that's a definite improvement. That said I think Command Consoles really only come into play in Strategic Games with lots of supporting assets that need to be coordinated. In my fiction the 'Hades' Hellbringer's are equipped with them but its mostly to call in artillery strikes and ortillery on area targets.

nckestrel

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #18 on: 19 August 2022, 16:12:04 »
Ah, correct.  I recalled Special Munitions, but forgot it was only using those from TW/BMM.
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Charistoph

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #19 on: 19 August 2022, 17:08:00 »
I was at the AC Open it was basically all BMM except for quirks.

You also do have the (normal-weight) Tripods which have I believe a distinct over-under cockpit with pilot and gunner. Superheavies have three. Dual Cockpit does basically make your pilot and gunner one better so that's a definite improvement. That said I think Command Consoles really only come into play in Strategic Games with lots of supporting assets that need to be coordinated. In my fiction the 'Hades' Hellbringer's are equipped with them but its mostly to call in artillery strikes and ortillery on area targets.

Quad-Vees also have a Pilot/Gunner combination like Tripods. 

They don't make pilots and gunners better, per se, but do expand their abilities in new ways other than a pure Skill change.
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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #20 on: 19 August 2022, 18:54:58 »
You'd think with all the dual cockpits available to other 'mech units that they'd make a proper return to normal 'mechs ::)
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General308

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #21 on: 19 August 2022, 21:34:43 »
I don't think I have ever seen a tournament or a matched play setup that allows for rules beyond the BMM/TW.

That doesn't really have anything to do with rules being dead and burried.  If it did than CGL could just stop selling most of it's rule books.  Tournament and orginized play make up such a small percentage of BT play.

General308

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #22 on: 19 August 2022, 21:35:19 »
Ah, I haven't seen a tournament since last century...

Exactly.

Sartris

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #23 on: 19 August 2022, 21:42:33 »
what even is this thread.

command consoles still get used occasionally (see Arthur Davion's custom Templar III he got from Stone). the TW/TacOps barrier had holes in it staring with TRO 3075 and was totally shattered by Prototypes. it's no longer a meaningful distinction, especially after a good chunk of it got poured directly into BMM.

General308

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #24 on: 19 August 2022, 22:04:26 »
what even is this thread.

command consoles still get used occasionally (see Arthur Davion's custom Templar III he got from Stone). the TW/TacOps barrier had holes in it staring with TRO 3075 and was totally shattered by Prototypes. it's no longer a meaningful distinction, especially after a good chunk of it got poured directly into BMM.

I was trying to remember which TRO had all the major changes to what is and isn't what level play thanks.  It is a prime reason why Total Warfare has outlived its intended goal and is long past needing a rewrite.

pokefan548

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #25 on: 19 August 2022, 23:02:23 »
Back on OP's topic and the idea of having a separate gunner and pilot (as you would with a tripod), there are some benefits.
  • Depending on your training pipeline, it can make training faster, easier, and by some metrics more efficient. If you've got more volunteers than 'Mechs and a finite period of time to get them trained, it may be easier to split them into two groups focused almost-exclusively on gunnery or piloting (at least for that segment of training). Downsides are that you will need some extra time drilling crews to build better group cohesion, and if you do have the time to give one MechWarrior equivalent training in both fields gunner/pilot combos become less cost-efficient in the long run (two separate paychecks every month, not to mention added training costs).
  • Crewed vehicles almost always enjoy a higher degree of awareness thanks to having multiple sets of eyes that can scan multiple arcs, and having one that can continue to monitor the situation while the other is distracted.
  • As I mentioned above with regards to command consoles, if both crew members receive at least rudimentary cross-training, they can briefly take up the other's responsibilities in a pinch.
In addition, specialty units could potentially see a benefit from having a second occupant (for example, if the Raven with an EWO could potentially receive benefits to its ECM/Active Probe capabilities).
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BrianDavion

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #26 on: 19 August 2022, 23:10:19 »
I was trying to remember which TRO had all the major changes to what is and isn't what level play thanks.  It is a prime reason why Total Warfare has outlived its intended goal and is long past needing a rewrite.

agreed. especially given how bloody CLUNKY TW is now. the BMM would be a fantastic "core book" for a new series.

pokefan548

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #27 on: 20 August 2022, 07:48:05 »
agreed. especially given how bloody CLUNKY TW is now. the BMM would be a fantastic "core book" for a new series.
Eeeeeh, I maintain that a TW rewrite would be an infinitely better core book. It's nice having the rules for almost every unit type in one book, I'd rather not go back to the old days of having to keep a bunch of different supplements around if I want to field a diverse combined-arms force. It also encourages more experimentation from new players.
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Daryk

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #28 on: 20 August 2022, 07:58:29 »
Good points!  :thumbsup:

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Re: Benefit of a Gunner
« Reply #29 on: 20 August 2022, 08:42:12 »
Not going to get into a argument over rulebooks as I find it pointless and is besides the point of the topic.

As for Duel Cockpits; Command Console makes more sense imo. I get the Attack Helicopter set up but in a universe where it's already established that MechWarrior are one with there mech, it really comes off as a after thought that sometimes you need two MechWarriors to do the same job vs your commander needs a ride.
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