Author Topic: C3 (Nova CEWS) Question (Read 3226 times)

TigerShark · « **on:** 21 September 2012, 22:43:45 »

When using an Aerospace unit as a C3 spotter (or member of a C3i network), how is distance determined from the Aero unit to the rest of the linked army?

MadCapellan · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 September 2012, 22:46:54 »

I don't believe they can even use C³?

TigerShark · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 September 2012, 22:59:18 »

Quote from: MadCapellan on 21 September 2012, 22:46:54

I don't believe they can even use C³?

WoR and WoR Supplemental both include the Nova CEWS ability to be mounted on Aero. They include record sheets for three, Nova-equipped Aero as well, so I assume this isn't a typo when it states that the Aero may only interact with Ground units.

MadCapellan · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 September 2012, 23:26:54 »

Oh, we're talking about NOVA CEWS. I can't comment on that one.

Maelwys · « **Reply #4 on:** 22 September 2012, 03:31:38 »

Since it only works when interacting with ground units (which to me means using the Ground Mapsheet rules) then I'd guess you'd measure from where the fighter ends its movement.

Of course, this raises a few questions

1) What about units that the Aerospace unit attacked in that turn. Are they considered at a base range of 0?

2) How is elevation handled.

3) How does things like ECM work with regards to Elevations, rather than levels?

Probably all things that should've been addressed in the rules in the book.

If I had to guess, I'd say measure from the fighter's end point to all the units, taking into account elevation as if being fired at (+2 hexes per level of elevation I think?), except for any unit the fighter attacked, in which case, the range is 0, with the same modification for elevation.

Its a little powerful (Not only did my fighter just strike you, but that Osteon is now at an incredibly short range), but it seems to be the fairest way to do it.

Best bet is to ask the writers/developers, and hope they thought of this when they wrote the passage in the book.

SCC · « **Reply #5 on:** 22 September 2012, 06:36:48 »

NOVA CEWS is special, it includes an ECM suite

Maelwys · « **Reply #6 on:** 22 September 2012, 13:14:39 »

Right, but if I'm in a Visigoth with a Nova CEWS installed, and I'm 6 altitudes above an Epona with Nova CEWS, are they blocking each other?

How does it interact with Altitudes, rather than Levels? I mean, is the ECM column all the way up to the space/atmosphere interface?

TigerShark · « **Reply #7 on:** 22 September 2012, 14:18:45 »

I can imagine distance from the spotter to the target is calculated by [(alt*2) + hexes] but the ECM bubble does elude me.

Jellico · « **Reply #8 on:** 22 September 2012, 16:19:22 »

It functions as a perfectly normal ASF ECM and Active Probe system. It has no interaction with ground units. Arguably the job can be done better by a Watchdog CEWS. But I guess the Society thought that they were getting some unspecified benefits.

TigerShark · « **Reply #9 on:** 22 September 2012, 16:25:48 »

Quote from: Jellico on 22 September 2012, 16:19:22

It functions as a perfectly normal ASF ECM and Active Probe system. It has no interaction with ground units. Arguably the job can be done better by a Watchdog CEWS. But I guess the Society thought that they were getting some unspecified benefits.

Actually..

The Wars of Reaving, page 203:

Quote

Fighters and Small Craft may only use Nova CEWS when interacting with ground units.

Jellico · « **Reply #10 on:** 22 September 2012, 17:18:01 »

Quote from: TigerShark on 22 September 2012, 16:25:48

Actually..

The Wars of Reaving, page 203:

Which is basically a retreading of P238 of Total Warfare

Quote

ECM and Active Probes: Electronic countermeasures have no
eff ect on combat between aerospace units, but they still aff ect
other types of units.

Tac Ops P232 gives us some idea of how difficult it is to connect aerospace units via C3.
P209 of Tech Manual goes as far as to note aerospace units can't mount a C3 system.

On the other hand P111 of Strat Ops extends what a ECM system or Active Probe can do for an ASF. It also includes more advanced systems. One can assume the Nova CEWS would be there if it existed when Strat Ops was written.

So, I will modify my statement.

It is pretty clear that C3 has never worked with ASF before in the game and it is very unlikely it works with Nova CEWS.
On the other hand the Nova CEWS also functions as an ECM and Active Probe and these do interact with ground units, as you noted on P203 of The Wars of Reaving. Mainly this means any Artemis equipied units fired at them don't get the bonus. They also interact with other space craft when using advanced rules.

The 1.5 ton Watchdog CEWS has basically the same performance for an ASF as a 1.5 ton Nova CEWS. You can take from that what ever you like. But you aren't going to get a C3 link out of one of these things.

TigerShark · « **Reply #11 on:** 22 September 2012, 17:30:50 »

I am hoping Ben or Paul can shed some light on this and what the original intention of this passage was. Obviously it (Nova CEWS) was intended to do something beyond providing an ECM Suite for Aerospace, which can be done with cheaper and widely-available gear.

Either way, I hope some elaboration will be presented.

Paul · « **Reply #12 on:** 22 September 2012, 23:17:30 »

Quote from: TigerShark on 22 September 2012, 17:30:50

I am hoping Ben or Paul can shed some light on this and what the original intention of this passage was. Obviously it (Nova CEWS) was intended to do something beyond providing an ECM Suite for Aerospace, which can be done with cheaper and widely-available gear.

Either way, I hope some elaboration will be presented.

There's 2 things going on.
Rules wise, aerospace fighters that are landed can be part of a Nova C3 network.
Fluff wise, it's intended as (more) evidence of the Society getting one wrong: they believed they could make it work at aerospace-relevant ranges, but failed. A case of new toy syndrome.

The intent is *not* to allow C3-capability at the Low Altitude or Space map. Only Naval C3 can do that presently.

Paul

TigerShark · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 September 2012, 01:07:18 »

An interesting note. Will that explanation be added to the book or errata? It seems a bit confusing now.

Paul · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 September 2012, 01:20:49 »

Perhaps; looks like we have to errata how it interacts with certain stealth/c3 systems.

Paul

Maelwys · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 September 2012, 01:29:54 »

Quote from: Paul on 22 September 2012, 23:17:30

There's 2 things going on.
Rules wise, aerospace fighters that are landed can be part of a Nova C3 network.
Fluff wise, it's intended as (more) evidence of the Society getting one wrong: they believed they could make it work at aerospace-relevant ranges, but failed. A case of new toy syndrome.

The intent is *not* to allow C3-capability at the Low Altitude or Space map. Only Naval C3 can do that presently.

I don't think anyone is claiming that you can utilize the Nova CEWS on the Low Altitude or Space Map. We're talking about on the Ground Mapsheet. But if Nova CEWS can only be utilized by small craft and aerospace fighters while they're on the ground, then that needs to be made perfectly clear in the rules. As it is, "Fighters and Small Craft may only use Nova CEWS when interacting with ground units," doesn't say to me "And only when grounded."

And that makes it even more confusing if you think about it. If the Nova CEWS can only be used when interacting with ground units (as the rule states exactly), then does that mean you can't use the ECM and Active Probe functions in space, utilizing the rules from StratOps?

So it seems the rule section is screwed up completely from both sides?

Paul · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 September 2012, 01:51:07 »

Quote from: Maelwys on 23 September 2012, 01:29:54

But if Nova CEWS can only be utilized by small craft and aerospace fighters while they're on the ground, then that needs to be made perfectly clear in the rules.

I already concur it could benefit from clarification. :p

Quote

And that makes it even more confusing if you think about it. If the Nova CEWS can only be used when interacting with ground units (as the rule states exactly), then does that mean you can't use the ECM and Active Probe functions in space, utilizing the rules from StratOps?

Wha? Not sure how that's a logical conclusion. Just because there's room for illogical conclusions doesn't necessarily mean the rules are flawed.

Quote

So it seems the rule section is screwed up completely from both sides?

Screwed up completely? I disagree with your sense or proportion. This is a fairly minor problem.

Paul

TigerShark · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 September 2012, 01:57:17 »

Am I correct in assuming that the Nova CEWS acts just like a Watchdog CEWS on Aero units, but with 2 heat added?

Paul · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 September 2012, 02:02:21 »

Quote from: TigerShark on 23 September 2012, 01:57:17

Am I correct in assuming that the Nova CEWS acts just like a Watchdog CEWS on Aero units, but with 2 heat added?

Yes. Not a good deal. The society didn't always succeed.

Paul

Maelwys · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 September 2012, 10:27:47 »

Quote from: Paul on 23 September 2012, 01:51:07

Wha? Not sure how that's a logical conclusion. Just because there's room for illogical conclusions doesn't necessarily mean the rules are flawed.

Quote

Units with multiple Nova CEWS may only use one at a time in game play. Fighters and Small Craft may only use Nova CEWS when interacting with ground units. Nova CEWS can be turned off in any End Phase.

That's the rule that covers aerospace fighters and small craft. I included the lines before and after it to show there isn't some context missing.

"...may only use Nova CEWS when interacting with ground units." Notice it doesn't say "May only use the Nova CEWS's c3 capabilities when interacting with ground units." It says "Fighters and Small Craft may only use Nova CEWS when interacting with ground units."

So when the fighter is in space and wants to use the ECM capabilities to give its opponents a +1 to-hit modifier, is it interacting with ground units? No? Therefore by the rules, you can't use it. Its not illogical, its what the rule states.

Fighter wants to use the active probe capabilities to negate a WarShip's ECM. Is it interacting with ground units? Definitely not. Therefore, it can't use the Nova CEWS.

Quote

Screwed up completely? I disagree with your sense or proportion. This is a fairly minor problem.

Paul

I dunno. Its screwed up on the ground mapboard because there's absolutely nothing that indicates that it can only use its Nova CEWS c3 link while its grounded. Its screwed when flying in space because the rules state that the system can only be used when interacting with ground units.

Not sure at what point my logic went wrong?

TigerShark · « **Reply #20 on:** 23 September 2012, 10:53:01 »

It's nothing to take personally. The rule(s) do need to be re-written, however, since things can be overlooked with the mountains of text and data getting stuffed into a book.

"Fighters and Small Craft equipped with Nova CEWS may benefit from a network's targeting data only when grounded. Units in flight may not benefit from targeting data acquired through a network."

^ See? Fairly simple fix.

Paul · « **Reply #21 on:** 23 September 2012, 12:51:00 »

Quote from: TigerShark on 23 September 2012, 10:53:01

It's nothing to take personally. The rule(s) do need to be re-written, however, since things can be overlooked with the mountains of text and data getting stuffed into a book.

"Fighters and Small Craft equipped with Nova CEWS may benefit from a network's targeting data only when grounded. Units in flight may not benefit from targeting data acquired through a network."

^ See? Fairly simple fix.

I like it. Thanks!
Do note that stuff would still have to go through ye olde approval process; this certainly isn't just my decision.

Paul

SCC · « **Reply #22 on:** 23 September 2012, 20:07:13 »

Quote from: Paul on 23 September 2012, 02:02:21

Yes. Not a good deal. The society didn't always succeed.

Paul

I don't know, NOVA C3 can only be blocked by other NOVA but can't remember of the top of my head if the same applies to the ECM and Probe functions (or even if it would be useful)

TigerShark · « **Reply #23 on:** 24 September 2012, 00:02:33 »

I think he means that the Society tried to use C3 in an Air-Ground capacity and it simply doesn't work. The Aero configs were failed experiments.

glitterboy2098 · « **Reply #24 on:** 24 September 2012, 02:18:52 »

it couldn't be used in the traditional C3 function, but i would imagine at minimum it could be used to send basic recon data to anyone it technically is supposed to be linked to.

nothing that could improve targeting, but enough to give abetter idea of what a battle field looks like.

that would make such mountings more of a roleplay element than a gameplay element.