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Author Topic: Clan C variants.  (Read 5292 times)

jymset

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #30 on: 22 January 2022, 06:03:54 »
honestlywith the underweight ones, i doubt you would bother trying to refit them further. more likely you'd just pull the clan gear for use on better suited designs, and remount the (introtech) succession wars grade gear that had been stripped out, or use a refit kit to bring it into line with the mildly upgraded 3050 IS equipment. trying to fix what amounts to a quick and dirty refit done by the clans would quickly get you into "costs more than you get in return" problems.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was 90% sure that the underweight ones from older products were ret-conned to use Heat Sinks to make them the proper weight again.

The original "C" refits have indeed evolved across four generational steps to be very streamlined.

Last year, I tried to summarize this evolution.
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #31 on: 22 January 2022, 22:51:22 »
(snip)
with that said I really feel there are different levels of whatever C units
1 level is the improvised refit I mentioned above
a second level is a refit done by the clan scientists and techs who look at the actual specs, and use the freed up weight due to the refits to do more than a weapons swap refit/upgrade
at the next level is where they start doing more extensive rebuilds where it is arguably a new build mech using clantech across the board but the weight doesn't change

the Whatever IIC is where you get into designs "inspired by" where they build a whole new design at a different weight that shares a name with another unit.

It does make sense that there's multiple levels of C refits. I'm not sure about Improvised though. I'm sure there are some but it does take some thought to know what weapons to replace without overtaxing the heat system. They also would have had years during the beginning of the Clans through Golden Century to figure it out. Also the underweight mechs were before changing Heat Sinks could be done in the field.  So were underweight Mechs, the lowest possible C level or intentional rush jobs to get mechs back in the field?



While the Clans weren't going to spend the resources to do much more with their C refits than put some standard(for clan tech) weapons on those rides, one would have to imagine that the pilots assigned to those rides, and their lesser load outs were (relatively) easy pickings for IS forces launching counter offensives.  (snip)

Why would C mechs be easier to take out/capture? Even if the quality of the pilots are the same, the mechs are using Clan Tech. That'd give them a range advantage. Possibly even a targeting advantage, depending on the weapon.
 
Quote
Ignoring how simple the refit rules are for a moment how hard would it generally be to shove additional stuff into a C mech to bring it to full weight?  Would any commanders try it?

That'd depend on if it was a customization or a refit kit. Refit kits cost more but are better in the long run. They're faster to install with less penalties.



The original "C" refits have indeed evolved across four generational steps to be very streamlined.

Last year, I tried to summarize this evolution.


So, if I got this right, and I probably don't; C Variants are intentional, probably used Refit Kits, and their proper name includes includes the letters and numbers plus (C) after them. Such as LCT-1V (C) Locust? And they're numbed the way the IIC variants are,  as they're introduced?

Are the C variants the first Clan variants or could there be  Clan variants made before they started using (C)? For example, the Locust C was introduced in 2836. That's plenty of time for the Clans to upgrade the Locust in varying ways with varying tech. If there were refit kits for mechs before (C) Variants, how would they have been named? With Clan initials and maybe a number?








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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #32 on: 22 January 2022, 23:18:29 »
Why would C mechs be easier to take out/capture? Even if the quality of the pilots are the same, the mechs are using Clan Tech. That'd give them a range advantage. Possibly even a targeting advantage, depending on the weapon.

Because aside from the weaponry, the original C mechs are identical to designs the Inner Sphere has been using for centuries.  Which means that Inner Sphere pilots who hadn't fought the Clans were going to have a much easier time figuring out where the weak points are on a Rifleman C than on a Vulture.
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #33 on: 22 January 2022, 23:29:09 »
Also clanner guns tend to run hotter on average.  This usually isn't an issue with actual clan mechs almost universally sporting double sinks, but Cs tend to just hot swap the guns with little boost to the usual IS heat capacity.

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #34 on: 23 January 2022, 01:40:09 »
Because aside from the weaponry, the original C mechs are identical to designs the Inner Sphere has been using for centuries.  Which means that Inner Sphere pilots who hadn't fought the Clans were going to have a much easier time figuring out where the weak points are on a Rifleman C than on a Vulture.

True but to exploit those known weaknesses they'd have to get past the C variants increased weapons range. The LB5-Xs give the Rifleman C a 6 hex range advantage. The Large Pulse Lasers do run hot but they also have increase range of a Rifleman-3N and they have a targeting bonus. The range and targeting bonuses mean C variants aren't going to be easy targets.


Also clanner guns tend to run hotter on average.  This usually isn't an issue with actual clan mechs almost universally sporting double sinks, but Cs tend to just hot swap the guns with little boost to the usual IS heat capacity.


Haven't Heat Sinks been retconned in to underweight mech so heat isn't quite the problem it used to be?

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #35 on: 23 January 2022, 02:46:07 »
True but to exploit those known weaknesses they'd have to get past the C variants increased weapons range. The LB5-Xs give the Rifleman C a 6 hex range advantage. The Large Pulse Lasers do run hot but they also have increase range of a Rifleman-3N and they have a targeting bonus. The range and targeting bonuses mean C variants aren't going to be easy targets.

And again, it is still easier to do that against a Rifleman that everybody and their mum is familiar with the armor and speed than against a Clan Omnimech where few people are familiar with.
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #36 on: 23 January 2022, 08:08:43 »
I thought the "C" versions were just updated IS mechs with Clan tech, but the 2c mechs were complete rebuilds even changes tonnages and purpose.
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #37 on: 23 January 2022, 09:51:14 »
I thought the "C" versions were just updated IS mechs with Clan tech, but the 2c mechs were complete rebuilds even changes tonnages and purpose.

thats why I said the IIC designs were more inspired by rather than a refit.

I may be mistaken but the only IIC I can think of offhand that doesn't change weight is the hunchback IIC, which uses a lot of weight saving tech to cram in a second AC20 ultra giving it (potentially) approximately 4X the firepower, while it lasts.

to go with another example consider the Marauder, and the Marauder IIC, the IIC is 10 tons heavier, and trades  the ac5 of the 3R for a 3rd erppc, the rifleman IIC goes for quad large pulse lasers, which is pretty scary, etc.

AlphaMirage

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #38 on: 23 January 2022, 10:15:46 »
There is also the Wyvern, Commando, and Jenner IIC which do not change the weight

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #39 on: 23 January 2022, 11:36:30 »
There is also the Wyvern, Commando, and Jenner IIC which do not change the weight

Also the Urbanmech IIC and Highlander IIC.
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #40 on: 23 January 2022, 18:31:26 »
And again, it is still easier to do that against a Rifleman that everybody and their mum is familiar with the armor and speed than against a Clan Omnimech where few people are familiar with.

The armor and speed may be the same but the weapons are not. It's no good to know a weakness if you can't exploit it. The range and targeting modifiers are going to make exploiting the Rifleman C's weakness more difficult. That's on top of the increased damage the pulse lasers do. I'm not saying their weaknesses can't be exploited but their advantages have to be overcome first. 




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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #41 on: 23 January 2022, 19:12:00 »
The armor and speed may be the same but the weapons are not. It's no good to know a weakness if you can't exploit it. The range and targeting modifiers are going to make exploiting the Rifleman C's weakness more difficult. That's on top of the increased damage the pulse lasers do. I'm not saying their weaknesses can't be exploited but their advantages have to be overcome first.

And you're still missing the point that the comparison isn't the difference in fighting a Rifleman C vs fighting a Rifleman 3N.  It's about fighting a Rifleman C or fighting a Vulture that's got superior armor, superior speed, superior heat dissipation, and is also a design that Mechwarrior Bob has never seen before and doesn't know where the weakpoints on it.
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #42 on: 23 January 2022, 20:15:28 »
There is also the Wyvern, Commando, and Jenner IIC which do not change the weight

For what it's worth, the wyvern is a great CANOICAL example of the difference between a C and a IIC:
When I first wrote "airs above" I had the techs do a field refit on the captured Wyvern, turning it into a IIC, because if you look at it, it's essentially all standard tech but the weapons.

however, it was bumped back by continuity saying exactly that: "IICs are specifically designed, and factory built, while Cs are field refits.  The Mech in this story is technically a C, even though, by game stats, they're identical."

That's why, when you read it (Shrapnel 1) it's referred to as a C.  (and since I had to make it a C and NOT a IIC, I swapped out the 2nd bin of ammo for an additional ERML: it fit the story better on what they could handle as a field refit, and it gives players a cool variant if they ever put it on the table... ;-)

RifleMech

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #43 on: 24 January 2022, 03:02:59 »
And you're still missing the point that the comparison isn't the difference in fighting a Rifleman C vs fighting a Rifleman 3N.  It's about fighting a Rifleman C or fighting a Vulture that's got superior armor, superior speed, superior heat dissipation, and is also a design that Mechwarrior Bob has never seen before and doesn't know where the weakpoints on it.

I've got your points but you've missed a couple. It's a Rifleman C. It's not a case of fighting the unknown. It's a case of finding out what you thought you knew isn't. Bob would expect there to be surprises from an unknown Mech. Bob isn't going to expect surprises from a Rifleman C because he thinks he knows it.

Bob's going to be shocked when the Rifleman C starts hitting him with accurate autocannon fire from further away than a Rifleman 3N should. Then he's going to be even more shocked as the even more accurate Large Pulse Lasers hit him like a pair of PPCs. It doesn't comput. Bob's eyes are saying one thing and his mind is saying something else. Everything he thinks he knows about the Rifleman is out the window. The Rifleman C may have the same armor and heat problems as the 3N but Bob doesn't know that. He just knows a Rifleman hit him harder from further away than it should have. It'd be like him going up again Legend Killer and wondering, "What the...How'd he do that!"



For what it's worth, the wyvern is a great CANOICAL example of the difference between a C and a IIC:
When I first wrote "airs above" I had the techs do a field refit on the captured Wyvern, turning it into a IIC, because if you look at it, it's essentially all standard tech but the weapons.

however, it was bumped back by continuity saying exactly that: "IICs are specifically designed, and factory built, while Cs are field refits.  The Mech in this story is technically a C, even though, by game stats, they're identical."

That's why, when you read it (Shrapnel 1) it's referred to as a C.  (and since I had to make it a C and NOT a IIC, I swapped out the 2nd bin of ammo for an additional ERML: it fit the story better on what they could handle as a field refit, and it gives players a cool variant if they ever put it on the table... ;-)

Cool.  :thumbsup:

I can't help wondering how many C variants are or should be IS creations. I would have thought they'd all be introduced before IIC designs. They should be natural steps to IIC variants but the Rifleman C wasn't introduced until the Clan Invasion.  I would also have thought that DHS would be included when needed. Even SLDF versions. The Rifleman C feels like an IS creation, like the  SCP-1O Scorpion.

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #44 on: 24 January 2022, 10:28:03 »
I've got your points but you've missed a couple. It's a Rifleman C. It's not a case of fighting the unknown. It's a case of finding out what you thought you knew isn't. Bob would expect there to be surprises from an unknown Mech. Bob isn't going to expect surprises from a Rifleman C because he thinks he knows it.

Bob's going to be shocked when the Rifleman C starts hitting him with accurate autocannon fire from further away than a Rifleman 3N should. Then he's going to be even more shocked as the even more accurate Large Pulse Lasers hit him like a pair of PPCs. It doesn't comput. Bob's eyes are saying one thing and his mind is saying something else. Everything he thinks he knows about the Rifleman is out the window. The Rifleman C may have the same armor and heat problems as the 3N but Bob doesn't know that. He just knows a Rifleman hit him harder from further away than it should have. It'd be like him going up again Legend Killer and wondering, "What the...How'd he do that!"

Remember that the original scenario was "raiding the Clans to get Clan weaponry?  By the time the C mechs appeared, people were very aware that the Clans had superior weaponry to the Inner Sphere.  That's not the freaking surprise you seem to think it is.
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #45 on: 24 January 2022, 10:29:38 »
For what it's worth, the wyvern is a great CANOICAL example of the difference between a C and a IIC:
When I first wrote "airs above" I had the techs do a field refit on the captured Wyvern, turning it into a IIC, because if you look at it, it's essentially all standard tech but the weapons.

However that is not what the fluff on the Highlander said, though they ran out of Highlanders to refit and started building them that way.  IIRC none of the other on-weight IICs ever say they were explicitly started as just new construction either.

I can't help wondering how many C variants are or should be IS creations. I would have thought they'd all be introduced before IIC designs. They should be natural steps to IIC variants but the Rifleman C wasn't introduced until the Clan Invasion.  I would also have thought that DHS would be included when needed. Even SLDF versions. The Rifleman C feels like an IS creation, like the  SCP-1O Scorpion.

 . . . so you have had the IRL and BTU explanations but not listened?

The original Cs, Atlas/Marauder/Warhammer/Archer/Thunderbolt/Rifleman/Shadow Hawk were done for the Twycross scenario book before Clan secondline designs were ever created.  They were given as a means of the Clan forces having garrison equipment for those clusters on the planet that were better than most of what the IS had but not up to the Clan frontline force standard.  The authors of that scenario book took the easiest out- they just swapped IS weapons for similar Clan weapons, hence Marauder swapped out PPCs for Clan ERPPCs . . . they are clearly inferior to the Omnis b/c they lack the heat dissipation, even if their weapons are the same.  It also made them underweight, but all they did was change a few lines on the RS- the weapon lines.

The IC explanation was the Clans were using up replacement mechs that were being shipped forward but had spare weapons, so they salvaged Inner Sphere machines and replaced the IS weapons with Clan weapons to get something in the PGC/solahma hands to defend territroy- something they were not expecting the warriors assigned as garrisons to need.  I want to say it is one of the Aiden Pryde books that has them sitting on Wotan or Sudeten next to a IS salvage/chop shop where the Falcons dropped off all the accumlated salvage from their invasions.  Swapping out weapons was the easiest & least time intensive way to get the salvage back into the field.

This is different than the EC refits, which is Star League designs where they were putting prototype or improved weapons on Star League chassis- which already had a higher techbase than the 3025 designs the Invaders used as the starting point for the Cs.  They were also more through/thoughtful refits maximizing their capabilities- like the Redback, which is a Maelstrom upgraded by the Widowmakers.  Or the Excalibur EC which can be seen as the forerunner of the Woodsman/Timber Wolf/Gargoyle B.

Now in 3145, again IC expediency calls, so we got more 'C' designs for mechs that never had them (but really should have, like Griffin) or 'C 2' (Warhammer, though it has a C 3 too) for those that did previously have those modifications.  So, Inner Sphere designs & factories that are using Star League or post-Star League technology have Clan components grafted on to boost their performance though they are once again 'less' than the pure Clan mechs & Omnis.  This allows the Wolves, Falcons, and the Foxes who are selling to bulk up the options.  IRL, it gave another option for the KS minis to have 3145 versions, a sort of IS & Clan WYSIWYG match.

NOW . . . nothing says the AFFC in 3054 could not make a Marauder C- but why would they really want to?  Their new Marauders have DHS, some have better armor, and their secondary weapons are generally better.  But you want your PC, who has the old family Marauder to chase down Clan ERPPCs and effectively duplicate what he heard one of his buddies ran into raiding the Clan OZ?  Go for it.  I would also now however that . . . I think it was the Warhammer?  Had one version that was specifically linked to the Dragoons for their production- question is where they refitting it or were the Foxes selling them that way?
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #46 on: 24 January 2022, 10:43:45 »
NOW . . . nothing says the AFFC in 3054 could not make a Marauder C- but why would they really want to?  Their new Marauders have DHS, some have better armor, and their secondary weapons are generally better.  But you want your PC, who has the old family Marauder to chase down Clan ERPPCs and effectively duplicate what he heard one of his buddies ran into raiding the Clan OZ?  Go for it.  I would also now however that . . . I think it was the Warhammer?  Had one version that was specifically linked to the Dragoons for their production- question is where they refitting it or were the Foxes selling them that way?
The MUL says that the AFFC do indeed have access to the Marauder C in 3054, as do the LAAF and DCMS.

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #47 on: 24 January 2022, 11:16:10 »
The MUL says that the AFFC do indeed have access to the Marauder C in 3054, as do the LAAF and DCMS.

But those are more likely salvage on those raids rather than creating the variant themselves (select produce instead of use option) . . . for one thing, if the AFFC ends up with a pair of cERPPC that are not going to the NAIS then they are going to the 1st Kathil Uhlans to replace the IS ERPPCs on a Marauder 5D rather than some Capellan Militia March grunt's old Marauder 3R.
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #48 on: 25 January 2022, 04:30:03 »
Remember that the original scenario was "raiding the Clans to get Clan weaponry?  By the time the C mechs appeared, people were very aware that the Clans had superior weaponry to the Inner Sphere.  That's not the freaking surprise you seem to think it is.


If it looks like a Rifleman 3N, and your combat computer says it's a 3N, and it hits you beyond the range a 3N should be able to, that's a surprise. And even if you did suspect it was upgraded with Clan tech, you don't know how it's upgraded. That means you can't rely on what you know about the Rifleman 3N and it's weaknesses.




 . . . so you have had the IRL and BTU explanations but not listened?



The original Cs, Atlas/Marauder/Warhammer/Archer/Thunderbolt/Rifleman/Shadow Hawk were done for the Twycross scenario book before Clan secondline designs were ever created.  They were given as a means of the Clan forces having garrison equipment for those clusters on the planet that were better than most of what the IS had but not up to the Clan frontline force standard.  The authors of that scenario book took the easiest out- they just swapped IS weapons for similar Clan weapons, hence Marauder swapped out PPCs for Clan ERPPCs . . . they are clearly inferior to the Omnis b/c they lack the heat dissipation, even if their weapons are the same.  It also made them underweight, but all they did was change a few lines on the RS- the weapon lines.

The IC explanation was the Clans were using up replacement mechs that were being shipped forward but had spare weapons, so they salvaged Inner Sphere machines and replaced the IS weapons with Clan weapons to get something in the PGC/solahma hands to defend territroy- something they were not expecting the warriors assigned as garrisons to need.  I want to say it is one of the Aiden Pryde books that has them sitting on Wotan or Sudeten next to a IS salvage/chop shop where the Falcons dropped off all the accumlated salvage from their invasions.  Swapping out weapons was the easiest & least time intensive way to get the salvage back into the field.

This is different than the EC refits, which is Star League designs where they were putting prototype or improved weapons on Star League chassis- which already had a higher techbase than the 3025 designs the Invaders used as the starting point for the Cs.  They were also more through/thoughtful refits maximizing their capabilities- like the Redback, which is a Maelstrom upgraded by the Widowmakers.  Or the Excalibur EC which can be seen as the forerunner of the Woodsman/Timber Wolf/Gargoyle B.

Now in 3145, again IC expediency calls, so we got more 'C' designs for mechs that never had them (but really should have, like Griffin) or 'C 2' (Warhammer, though it has a C 3 too) for those that did previously have those modifications.  So, Inner Sphere designs & factories that are using Star League or post-Star League technology have Clan components grafted on to boost their performance though they are once again 'less' than the pure Clan mechs & Omnis.  This allows the Wolves, Falcons, and the Foxes who are selling to bulk up the options.  IRL, it gave another option for the KS minis to have 3145 versions, a sort of IS & Clan WYSIWYG match.

NOW . . . nothing says the AFFC in 3054 could not make a Marauder C- but why would they really want to?  Their new Marauders have DHS, some have better armor, and their secondary weapons are generally better.  But you want your PC, who has the old family Marauder to chase down Clan ERPPCs and effectively duplicate what he heard one of his buddies ran into raiding the Clan OZ?  Go for it.  I would also now however that . . . I think it was the Warhammer?  Had one version that was specifically linked to the Dragoons for their production- question is where they refitting it or were the Foxes selling them that way?

I was thinking of the unit lists in Clan Wolf and Jade Falcon Sourcebooks. They include IS and SLDF units but not what variant they are. I'm thinking of the unit lists in the Wolf's Dragoon Sourcebook. They do list specific variants. Some of which didn't originate in the IS. And didn't the Dragoons have to downgrade some of their mechs? I'm also thinking of the Improved Weapons found in TRO:3050. They were considered Extinct then. And there's the fact that the Clans have SLDF Tech.

I was thinking that at the time the Clans were founded, they only had IS/SLDF Mechs. They did produce a few of their own before Operation Klondike but most of what they had were the mechs they brought with them. We're given some rules for adding Clan prototypes but the Improved Tech was around for 20 years or more by the time it ceased being produced. So where are the upgrades? Where's the upgrades to Clan Tech that would have come later? There should have been plenty of upgraded mechs. Fortunately, we have to gotten some but shouldn't there be more?

Since there are (C) Mechs 200 years before the Clan Invasion, were those seen on Twycross really the first time they were used? Did the Clans really go from the Rifleman 3N straight to the Rifleman IIC and then back to the Rifleman C?   ??? Maybe there's an EC in there we don't know about? Maybe the Twycross Cs were rush jobs and they didn't have time to fully refit them? After all, I would think that after 200 years of Clan tech, a Clan Tech would 2 LPLs with only 12 SHS isn't a good idea. Having to get mechs out in a hurry, and mechs being too light and running way to hot, sounds like a rush job to me.

I get why it happened in real life. We got Mechs like the TRO:3050 Panther and Scorpion around the same time too. I also get being lazy. Still, with the retcon adding in heat sinks, I would have thought TPTB would've uses doubles. Especially now that swapping heat sinks can be done in the field? Which makes me want to think they're rush jobs. If that's the case, why not say s? Why not tell us what variant the techs were going for but didn't have time to complete?

And I still wonder about the naming. They obviously started off using letter and numbers with the unit. The IMP-1A Imp proves that. Adding C or EC is okay but it sounds like an IS thing though. Something to call a variant when they don't know the exact name. Like calling a Timber Wolf a Mad Cat. Especially, the EC. Would the Clans put Early Clan on their variants? If that's what the Clans did though, cool.

As for the IS creating C variants, Clan tech is usually lighter and more compact. Many also tend to have greater range and or greater damage than SLDF weapons. So yes, I can see the AFFC making a Marauder C. Clan ER PPCs may not have better range than SLDF ER PPCs but they hit 50% harder for the same amount of heat. They're also lighter which could mean 2 additional tons to use on something else. Besides, after a few years weren't several of the frontline forces equipped fully with Clan Tech? So maybe there is an IS Marauder C?  And if C is just added to the existing designation couldn't there be a Marauder MAD-3R (C) and a Marauder MAD-5D (C)?


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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #49 on: 25 January 2022, 17:16:41 »

If it looks like a Rifleman 3N, and your combat computer says it's a 3N, and it hits you beyond the range a 3N should be able to, that's a surprise. And even if you did suspect it was upgraded with Clan tech, you don't know how it's upgraded. That means you can't rely on what you know about the Rifleman 3N and it's weaknesses.

That is only true the first time someone in the Inner Sphere encounters one.  The Inner Sphere was extremely good at sharing intel about the Clans with each other, and by the time they'd started launching raids on Clan-occupied planets instead of being purely on the defensive against Clan forces hitting them, they already knew about the Clans using refitted Inner Sphere mechs.  It simply was never the surprise that you seem to think it was.
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RifleMech

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #50 on: 26 January 2022, 00:11:15 »
That is only true the first time someone in the Inner Sphere encounters one.  The Inner Sphere was extremely good at sharing intel about the Clans with each other, and by the time they'd started launching raids on Clan-occupied planets instead of being purely on the defensive against Clan forces hitting them, they already knew about the Clans using refitted Inner Sphere mechs.  It simply was never the surprise that you seem to think it was.


How long does it take that intel to trickle down to individual soldiers?  Until it does, how many will think it's a 3N or even a 5M and not a C ? There were many variants of the Rifleman that the Clans could have captured and pressed into service. The Clans could have a C variant for each. And if they do presume it's got Clan Tech, how sure are they in what it mounts? There's definitely other ways to upgrade while still looking like a 3N. Using DHS for one. So there is plenty of room for surprise.

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #51 on: 29 January 2022, 10:19:58 »
I do find it odd that we don't see more types of C refit on a chassis, for example we only get a Marauder C based on the -3R, but the Warhammer gives us the C (from the -6R), the C 2 (from the -7M) and the C 3 new construction.

I'd expect to see a C 2 either based on the -5D as it would have been encountered by the clans across the invasion zone.

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #52 on: 29 January 2022, 10:49:35 »
IIRC a lot of the C-2s were a mixed lot.

Some of them are the C-1s from Twycross but given a more in depth refit so they are no longer under-weight, but still using Intro Tech for the SHS etc etc.
These would, IMHO be the most common because you see them in both Brian Caches & across every IS & Periphery Nation.

Then there are other C-2's like the Warhammer mentioned above which got DHS implying it was either a 7M/7S refit, OR, that it was just a more involved 6R refit.
It isn't quite clear on the Sarna write up since the weapons match the 6R locations & NOT the 7 Series, but it does have DHS.

Then you have basic C-1's "C" that were not Refits at all but were from captured IS Factories like the Battlemaster-C the Falcons were producing that was sort of based on the 4S IIRC with its Gauss in the RA instead of PPC.

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #53 on: 29 January 2022, 11:06:26 »
Some of them are the C-1s from Twycross but given a more in depth refit so they are no longer under-weight, but still using Intro Tech for the SHS etc etc.

RecGuides did away with all the underweight Twycross Cs, they got more single heat sinks from the pile of salvage they were pulled from.  Which was a long time fan suggestion.
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #54 on: 29 January 2022, 17:28:18 »
However that is not what the fluff on the Highlander said, though they ran out of Highlanders to refit and started building them that way.  IIRC none of the other on-weight IICs ever say they were explicitly started as just new construction either.

For the IICs in TRO3060, I'd suggest that the presence of a factory name and location in the stat block implies that they are in fact being built new, in their listed TRO IIC configurations.

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #55 on: 29 January 2022, 22:58:32 »
I'm still having trouble thinking of the Cs from Twycross as anything more than incomplete field refits. Sure they got retconned so they're no longer underweight but if you were going to refit a mech with higher heat generating weapons, wouldn't you switch to DHS or include enough SHS to manage the additional heat build up? If you couldn't make the heat manageable, wouldn't you use weapons that didn't generate as much heat? After all, isn't one of the reasons to refit a unit to improve it?

Also changing heat sinks has gone from a Class D Maintenance Refit to a Class B Field Refit. The only reason now not to refit single heat sinks to doubles is either a lack of time, a lack of parts, lack of internal space, some combination or all of the above. Add in that Cs date back to the 2830s, if not earlier, and there should be better Cs than we saw on Twycross.


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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #56 on: 29 January 2022, 23:32:37 »
Considering that there's some Clan mechs with single heat sinks still, I suppose DHS aren't ubiquitous - would you put your precious DHS in a refitted, Spheroid salvaged junkpile or would you put it in a proper secondline Clan mech?  If you don't have enough DHS (and that's a big if I'm assuming) to fit all your first and second tier gear, I wouldn't imagine they'd be used for what counts as third-rate garbage.

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #57 on: 30 January 2022, 00:10:04 »
Double heatsinks would also require an engine swap.
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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #58 on: 30 January 2022, 03:15:11 »
Double heatsinks would also require an engine swap.
not really

it DOES require going into the engine "box" but does not necessarily require changing the engine itself

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Re: Clan C variants.
« Reply #59 on: 30 January 2022, 03:19:08 »
Oh, well, it's significantly more involved than simply shoving more single heatsinks into the generally cavernous interiors of the mechs being upgraded.
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