Register Register

Author Topic: Cockpit placement  (Read 1260 times)

ShroudedSciuridae

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 188
Cockpit placement
« on: 23 January 2022, 14:58:56 »
I've seen a lot of discussion in recent days over cockpit placement in the new miniatures, what are some Mechs that commonly get confused?

Take the Crab for instance, even among the redesigns there seems to be two answer for it. Alan Blackwell's line art in RC5 certainly suggests the very front of the torso.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:Crab_RGilClan_v05.png
But the 3D model seen on the pilot cards (technically the most recent product) suggests it's at the very top of the  torso.
https://m.imgur.com/a/YWDJM6A
« Last Edit: 23 January 2022, 15:02:20 by ShroudedSciuridae »

Paul

  • dies a lot at the Solaris Melee Challenge!
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 14890
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #1 on: 23 January 2022, 15:03:34 »
Hunchback and Assassin come to mind. Is the cockpit on top, or in the chest? Loose apparently thought Mechs might have 2 operators, like helicopter gunships.
The solution is just ignore Paul.

Middcore

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
  • The Inner Sphere could always use more Heroes!
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #2 on: 23 January 2022, 15:08:49 »
Isn't there currently a thread on the BT reddit about this?

Many people, whether in error or on purpose, paint the hatch on top of the new Thunderbolt's head as though it's a "glass" canopy.


ShroudedSciuridae

  • Sergeant
  • *
  • Posts: 188
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #3 on: 23 January 2022, 15:11:09 »
Yeah, but it's like the 12th one I've seen this month across various platforms so I think it's a big enough area of confusion worth having a thread about it. That's also where I swiped the imgur link for the Crab.

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24296
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #4 on: 23 January 2022, 16:16:28 »
I think this is a game design question, honestly.  If the location of the cockpit is harder to hit due to it being a "harder to aim place", then it doesn't really matter where the art puts it.

Luciora

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4227
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #5 on: 23 January 2022, 17:30:46 »
I thought the Hunchback was fluffed to have armored shutters covering the cockpit glass, hence the look.  Thunderbolt, I cant offer an explanation, as a hatch is pretty dissimilar to a cockpit window, and by virtue of seeing enough art of it to know better, from Dougram.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8602
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #6 on: 23 January 2022, 17:54:54 »
I never thought that was glass in the art, maybe a port for a sensor but considering the canopy glass in Battlemechs are supposed to be transparent armor or whatever, you can have a view port there for safety (rather not eject while under a overhanging obstruction) without it comprising the integrity.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

BATTLEMASTER

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1512
  • Lightning From Another Zip Code
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #7 on: 23 January 2022, 19:03:15 »
I thought the Hunchback was fluffed to have armored shutters covering the cockpit glass, hence the look.  Thunderbolt, I cant offer an explanation, as a hatch is pretty dissimilar to a cockpit window, and by virtue of seeing enough art of it to know better, from Dougram.

I always thought the slats in front of the Hunchback's cockpit was a camera and sensor array.  The pilot doesn't see out windows, but TV screens instead, so I've thought.
BATTLEMASTER
Trombone Player, Lego Enthusiast, Engineer
Clan Smoke Jaguar, Delta Galaxy ("The Cloud Rangers"), 4th Jaguar Dragoons
"You better stand back, I'm not sure how loud this thing can get!"
If you like Lego, you'll like my Lego battlemech projects!

Cache

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3052
    • Lords of the Battlefield
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #8 on: 23 January 2022, 20:44:51 »
I thought the Hunchback was fluffed to have armored shutters covering the cockpit glass, hence the look. 
Loose stated he drew it with a torso cockpit (black strips in the TRO:3025 art) and the shutters housed a FLIR and sensors. The Assassin was intended (by him) to have a pilot, gunner, and commander. But the universe was just being fleshed out at the time, so none of that stuck.

BATTLEMASTER

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1512
  • Lightning From Another Zip Code
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #9 on: 23 January 2022, 21:37:07 »
Loose stated he drew it with a torso cockpit (black strips in the TRO:3025 art) and the shutters housed a FLIR and sensors.

I had no idea that Loose intended it to have a torso-mounted cockpit - cool!

I always liked the way Mike Jackson colored the Hunchback's cockpit in this scene he did awhile ago...



But now I wonder if that red glowing line in the Hunchback's chest was also intended by Mike Jackson to be its cockpit per Duane Loose's consultation?  Hmmmm...
« Last Edit: 23 January 2022, 21:38:53 by BATTLEMASTER »
BATTLEMASTER
Trombone Player, Lego Enthusiast, Engineer
Clan Smoke Jaguar, Delta Galaxy ("The Cloud Rangers"), 4th Jaguar Dragoons
"You better stand back, I'm not sure how loud this thing can get!"
If you like Lego, you'll like my Lego battlemech projects!

bobthecoward

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1758
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #10 on: 23 January 2022, 22:59:51 »
And then they gave the assassin stats that would never justify a 3 person crew.

SteelRaven

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 8602
  • Fight for something or Die for nothing
    • The Steel-Raven at DeviantArt
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #11 on: 23 January 2022, 23:37:10 »
I'm honestly tired of one personality in the community preaching about the proper assassin cockpit every time the subject is brought up.
Battletech Art and Commissions
http://steel-raven.deviantart.com

klarg1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #12 on: 29 January 2022, 12:38:14 »
Before this thread it honestly never occurred to me that the hunchback’s cockpit might be anyplace other than the head. It’s an interesting idea.

Sartris

  • Codex Conditor
  • BattleTech Volunteer
  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 16837
  • Always the least qualified person in the room
    • Master Unit List
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #13 on: 29 January 2022, 16:04:48 »
I think this is a game design question, honestly.  If the location of the cockpit is harder to hit due to it being a "harder to aim place", then it doesn't really matter where the art puts it.

Yeah, the location of the mech’s “head” is a very loose concept.

You bought the box set and are ready to expand your bt experience. Now what? | Modern Sourcebook Index | FASA Sourcebook Index | Print on Demand Index
Equipment Reference Cards | DIY Pilot Cards | PaperTech Mech and Vehicle Counters

Quote
Part of the fanbase: I have very fringe interests
Same part of the fanbase: Why are my interests not specifically catered to and legitimized by canon?

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24296
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #14 on: 29 January 2022, 16:06:26 »
I've always taken the "head" location in the abstract (mostly due to the Marauder), but I have to admit... it never occurred to me the Hunchback's cockpit might be somewhere else.

Cache

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 3052
    • Lords of the Battlefield
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #15 on: 29 January 2022, 16:16:01 »
Loose's Wolverine from TRO:3025 has the front of the traditional cockpit armored up similar to the Hunchback, while there appears to be cockpit glass just above the waist. The Archer's cockpit was moved compared to it's original source from the top of the torso to the lower front. Why not others?
« Last Edit: 29 January 2022, 17:44:20 by Cache »

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24296
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #16 on: 29 January 2022, 16:22:14 »
The Archer was another one that led me to think of "head" as abstract rather than literal.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21615
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #17 on: 29 January 2022, 16:46:09 »
Yeah, the location of the mech’s “head” is a very loose concept.

Just check the differences between the Avalanche and the Wendigo.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

glitterboy2098

  • Lieutenant Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 10325
    • The Temple Grounds - My Roleplaying and History website
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #18 on: 29 January 2022, 17:44:07 »
I've seen a lot of discussion in recent days over cockpit placement in the new miniatures, what are some Mechs that commonly get confused?

Take the Crab for instance, even among the redesigns there seems to be two answer for it. Alan Blackwell's line art in RC5 certainly suggests the very front of the torso.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/File:Crab_RGilClan_v05.png
But the 3D model seen on the pilot cards (technically the most recent product) suggests it's at the very top of the  torso.
https://m.imgur.com/a/YWDJM6A

the Crab's cockpit has always been on the top, going by description. as the (head mounted) small laser had (almost) always been depicted on the top of the mech, projecting out from a tank cupola like feature in front of the antenna. the original TRO2750 art was a bit more ambiguous but every redraw since has made the location of the small laser clear.
the main thing the recguide art did was to make the cockpit actually visible via viewing blocks instead of being completely buried under the armor. that said the angle on the art in the recguide does make this less obvious since you can;t see the viewing blocks, leaving the snout mounted sensors the only clearly "glass" bit.

plastic_slug

  • Private
  • *
  • Posts: 36
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #19 on: 29 January 2022, 18:42:20 »
How about this - the ‘head’ is merely the part of the mech that the cockpit is directly behind, regardless of its shape, physical location, or appearance. Problem solved. It is a game construct to have a ‘head’, to prevent every mech from needing its own hit location diagram, and the inherent unfairness that could create when it is easier or harder to strike things based merely on the mech’s cosmetic appearance.

And indeed, some Battletech mechs were intended to be multi crewed vehicles, based on the Japanese originals they were ‘borrowed’ from. The Scorpion was a walking tank with several hatches for its crew, for example.

Daryk

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 24296
  • The Double Deuce II/II-σ
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #20 on: 29 January 2022, 18:58:43 »
Your first part is what I meant by "abstract location" of the head.  I was never really that into anime, so your second part I'm less sure of...

abou

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1728
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #21 on: 29 January 2022, 19:01:25 »
Yeah, the location of the mech’s “head” is a very loose concept.
Because it was drawn by Duane Loose?

klarg1

  • Captain
  • *
  • Posts: 1864
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #22 on: 29 January 2022, 19:43:35 »
Loose's Wolverine from TRO:3025 has the front of the traditional cockpit armored up similar to the Hunchback, while there appears to be cockpit glass just above the waist. The Archer's cockpit was moved compared to it's original source from the top of the torso to the lower front. Why not others?

It seems like some of the odd cases are simply due to various panels being black instead of white in Loose's old art, but that would imply that the Trebuchet's cockpit could be located inside it's left torso or right hip.

BATTLEMASTER

  • Lieutenant
  • *
  • Posts: 1512
  • Lightning From Another Zip Code
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #23 on: 29 January 2022, 21:07:06 »
Because it was drawn by Duane Loose?

 ;D

Abstract like having ammo going from the left torso or leg to the right arm - the 'mech just happens to go boom for some reason related to damage to those locations  ;)
BATTLEMASTER
Trombone Player, Lego Enthusiast, Engineer
Clan Smoke Jaguar, Delta Galaxy ("The Cloud Rangers"), 4th Jaguar Dragoons
"You better stand back, I'm not sure how loud this thing can get!"
If you like Lego, you'll like my Lego battlemech projects!

Luciora

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4227
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #24 on: 29 January 2022, 21:11:40 »
A torso mounted cockpit version of the Hunchback looks to lose half a ton of armor, but does work. 

idea weenie

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3529
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #25 on: 29 January 2022, 21:39:02 »
Or the cockpit is a part of the Center torso that is designed to be launched clear of an exploding Mech.  So technically you are hitting the Center torso, just at the weak point where the ejection panel is located.  The Life Support is present in that location because the pilot is sitting there, and the Sensors is the main processor that drives the Mechwarrior's targeting system/displays.

So it can be placed anywhere, it just reflects the opponent hitting the weak spot.

So an Archer could have a cockpit in the 'head', or it can have a torso-mounted cockpit due to the designer being sick of having to hose out cockpits due to critical hits.  Both designs would look the same, but in the second one the pilot has far more (and sturdier) armor between them and the outside.  This is both good and bad.

guardiandashi

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 4580
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #26 on: 29 January 2022, 22:19:51 »
actually on the archer I have seen 3 locations depicted for the cockpit

1st is towards the top of the torst
2nd is the lower front of the torso
3rd is the "strangest" its on the lower rear of the torso

the marauder the cockpit is usually depicted as being kind of in the middle of the torso, behind the "eye" thing on the front, but actually far enough back, that its actually under the sloped "flat" part on the top of the torso

with most mechs it can either be fairly obvious where the cockpit is supposed to be, and in other cases its pretty vague
for instance in the atlas a number of descriptions say/imply its actually behind one of the eyes in the skull head part of the mech.

MoneyLovinOgre4Hire

  • Colonel
  • *
  • Posts: 21615
  • Wipe your mouth!
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #27 on: 29 January 2022, 22:31:49 »
TRO 3025 mentioned that the Archer generally did poorly in brawling due to the low, forward placement of the cockpit.
Warning: this post may contain sarcasm.

"I think I've just had another near-Rincewind experience," Death, The Color of Magic

"When in doubt, C4." Jamie Hyneman

RifleMech

  • Major
  • *
  • Posts: 3291
Re: Cockpit placement
« Reply #28 on: 30 January 2022, 02:12:08 »
Your first part is what I meant by "abstract location" of the head.  I was never really that into anime, so your second part I'm less sure of...

Head can be pretty abstract. Where's the head on the Hornet? I know where the cockpit is but the head? The Rifleman's cockpit also moves around. Sometimes, its in the head just under the radar random. Sometimes it's at the very front of the center torso.


You should give anime a shot. Some is pretty good. If not there's always line art. Some will even give cockpit details. I haven't found such for the Blizzard Gunner (Scorpion)  but you can see where the cockpits and hatches are located in the art. They're both on the left side. One is just behind the machine gun. You can see a view port and then a hatch. The other is on the raised up "head" part right next to the VGL.

The Wolverine (Blockhead) has two crew sitting one above the other. The Goliath, (Gunners) have a crew of 3-5? The main hull has a driver and gunner side by side, like in a tank. The Desert Gunner adds a third seat just behind them. There's also room for a squad of infantry. There's a hatch in the back of the main hull and possibly one in the bottom of the hull. (I can't read Japanese :( ). There's also a hatch in the forward part of the upper hull and another one in the turret. Interior art shows a ladder going to the upper hull. So that's around 12-13 people in the mech. Some of the Gunners have added platforms for infantry to ride on the outside. All those crew and infantry in illegal places makes it hard to make stats for it.  xp