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Author Topic: "Cross-faction" military structure use  (Read 1082 times)

Empyrus

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"Cross-faction" military structure use
« on: 16 June 2021, 22:25:11 »
Awkward title but couldn't think better.

I started thinking about if any Inner Sphere units use ComStar or Clan formations, or Clans using IS or ComStar or etc? And also wondered if there were any other systems i might not be aware of.
Not in ad hoc capacity but rather having unit that in principle is always organized in some other manner than usual for the faction.

I seem to recall that the ComStar had "Invader Galaxy" that was organized in Clan manner, though i'm not sure if had battle armor, and if it had, did it use points for them or just ComStar level 1s (for sake of simplicity).

The Broadsword Legion, having splintered form ComStar, apparently continued using "base-6" structure. Did any other mercenary unit utilize ComStar system?
Combat Manual Mercs offers demi-companies as an option but these seem to be just replacement to lances and otherwise the Inner Sphere military structure seems to be intact. Are there any canonical examples of mercs that actually consistently used demi-companies?

The Wolf's Dragoons apparently used Clan formations for a time after the Clan Invasion but as i understand they reverted to Spheroid structure eventually. Can anyone confirm this?

And are there other mercs that utilize Clan formations?

Do the Clans have any units that utilize Inner Sphere (or ComStar) formations? I seem to recall that either Star Adders or Goliath Scorpions trained Wolf's Dragoons, so i'm guessing either one might have unit or units organized in Spheroid manner for training.

Can anyone think of any other weird or unusual cases?

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Sartris

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #1 on: 16 June 2021, 22:28:15 »
The Star Adder Kappa Provisional Galaxy acted as an IS OpFor so I presume they used lance structures... though if they had to fight other clans they probably reverted to traditional clan formations? I don't think there's much about them past the Field Manual

Empyrus

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #2 on: 16 June 2021, 22:33:28 »
The Star Adder Kappa Provisional Galaxy acted as an IS OpFor so I presume they used lance structures... though if they had to fight other clans they probably reverted to traditional clan formations? I don't think there's much about them past the Field Manual
Ah, my memory wasn't a total failure, i felt like there was something like this.
But judging by FMCrusaderClans, the Galaxy can work as an OpFor and mimic IS tactics but isn't organized along Spheroid lines. Guess that would be too much for Clans.
Honestly, i'd be surprised if there were Clan units organized along Spheroid lines permanently. Spheroids are way more flexible in their thinking...
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AlphaMirage

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #3 on: 16 June 2021, 22:50:06 »
Well a CCAF "Standard" Augmented Lance (4 Mechs +2 vehicles) is both a Star and Level II as well as a rather flexible organization that I could see Mercs using. The "Nonstandard" of 4 Mechs and 2 Squads of Battle Armor is still a Level II but falls short of being a Short Nova.

dgorsman

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #4 on: 16 June 2021, 23:19:00 »
Raging Horde mercenaries are mostly set up as an Elemental Cluster, with trinaries and 4-point stars of IS troopers and 5-point stars of Clan troopers.

13th Stalking Horse and Wild Geese mercenaries are set up as armored cavalry, with troops/reinforced companies and squadrons/reinforced battalions.  There is mention of the Wild Geese making use of Com Guard Level IIs when it's original commander was replaced.
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Empyrus

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #5 on: 16 June 2021, 23:25:06 »
Oh, interesting. Never delved deeply into mercs so these are pleasant surprises.

One reason i started this thread was that i kinda wanted to figure if a merc unit using Clan structure would be weird...
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CJC070

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #6 on: 16 June 2021, 23:25:55 »
The Black Widow Battalion post 3040 used the clan style.  One or two books reference militia units using Stars or Levels to help support the training of new recruits.

Sharpnel

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #7 on: 17 June 2021, 02:49:18 »
There's also the ComGuards Invader Galaxy which used Clan machines and organization as an OpFor for ComGuards.
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Daryk

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #8 on: 18 June 2021, 05:44:14 »
Transport generally drives organization.  If all you have are unconverted Leopards, you're probably not going to want anything bigger than a lance of 4.

Empyrus

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #9 on: 18 June 2021, 05:51:39 »
Transport generally drives organization.  If all you have are unconverted Leopards, you're probably not going to want anything bigger than a lance of 4.
Shh, no logic here!

Seriously though, i know this is a big issue. Certainly makes mercs adopting Clan structure difficult, though by 3150 i'd imagine the Sea Foxes will sell Clan DropShips to anyone who can pay. No comment on whether mercs can pay.
And it is not all bad, a Union can transport a Binary very well and have actually room left for cargo and stuff. (I seem to recall people figuring once that normally Union is a terrible raider, this might alleviate some of that.)
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guardiandashi

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #10 on: 18 June 2021, 10:39:29 »
Shh, no logic here!

Seriously though, i know this is a big issue. Certainly makes mercs adopting Clan structure difficult, though by 3150 i'd imagine the Sea Foxes will sell Clan DropShips to anyone who can pay. No comment on whether mercs can pay.
And it is not all bad, a Union can transport a Binary very well and have actually room left for cargo and stuff. (I seem to recall people figuring once that normally Union is a terrible raider, this might alleviate some of that.)
depending on how you read/interpret the cargo rules, a union is actually not a horrible raider. but it requires some alternate interpretations.
1 the union has 12 mech bays and 2 fighter bays. there are supposed to be 2 quarters included in the 150 ton mass, 1 pilot, and 1 technician.
2 if you read the bloodright scenario pack a certain way, each bay also includes 25 tons of cargo space typically dedicated to the needs of the unit stored in the bay.
3 if you read the black thorns novels (and scenario pack book) when the clans captured the union dropship (and repaired it) they loaded additional mechs on board, by in some cases putting more than 1 mech in a bay, that added up to 100 tons (or less)
4 every bay can hold a unit up to 100 tons in a standard mech/fighter bay.... what happens if you load something smaller in the bay? say a phoenix hawk at 45 tons. some interpretations are that you can fill the remaining mass without overloading the dropship.
5 the physical volumes of the dropships and the systems/cargo masses add up reasonably well, but the Volumes don't so there should be an enormous amount of "cargo space" on the mech bay decks that could be used to balance and store all that "spare" cargo mass that I mentioned previously.

if you accept the statements I made, then a union can haul a LOT of cargo and spares that are not well accounted for.
if you don't accept it, then the union has ~0-60 tons of cargo weight, and is a horrible design for raiding.

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #11 on: 18 June 2021, 11:30:07 »
The Wolf's Dragoons apparently used Clan formations for a time after the Clan Invasion but as i understand they reverted to Spheroid structure eventually. Can anyone confirm this?

And are there other mercs that utilize Clan formations?

The Black Widow Battalion post 3040 used the clan style.  One or two books reference militia units using Stars or Levels to help support the training of new recruits.

IIRC the Dragoons had an odd set up.

As noted the Widows expanded first to a Battalion & then each Lance/Company into a Star/Trinary for a full Cluster.
I think Zeta did the same from Battalion to Cluster at some point.

The HomeGuard + Attached Tank-Infantry Units stayed with IS Organization of 4-3-3

The Line Mech Regiments all used standard Companies but the Regimental Command Company, (And Maybe the Battalion Command Lance),  all used a Stars / "Mixed Trinary" formation instead.

Specifically,  IIRC the Battalion Command Lance was actually a Mech Star.
While the Regimental Command Company was a "Mixed Trinary" of like 8-12 mechs & assorted vees & grunts.

This allowed them to split off a unit from each star to form a "Recon" force that would look very similar to an Eridani Light Horse 3025 Lance with like 1 Locust, 1 APC, 1 Recon Hover, & a Foot Platoon,  etc etc.

I forget the specifics but I think it was Mercs 3055 that spelled out the exact composition.

Basically, to me, it just seemed like an interesting way to form up the attached "Recon/Security" assets that you would normally see assigned to a mech regiment per those Battle Force TO&E templates at the back of the 4th SW Atlas books.
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MarikMilitaMan

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #12 on: 19 June 2021, 07:32:53 »
The Head Hunters mercenary unit uses demi-companies according to their entry in the mercenary field manual.

RifleMech

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #13 on: 20 June 2021, 16:34:39 »
It's too hot to go looking, but didn't Snord's Irregulars use Clan formations after integrating captured clan warriors into Clan Snord?

Charistoph

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #14 on: 20 June 2021, 21:01:59 »
It's not uncommon for some smaller Merc units to basically run a Level II, but I think they would call it a reinforced lance or a demi-company, depending on how they operated.  If you have 5 friends with mechs, that's how I would operate it.  Even more so if that's what you needed for your operations.

Edit: And I think the Blood Spirits kept a unit configured as the SLDF, but that could have been the Scorpions.
« Last Edit: 20 June 2021, 22:39:02 by Charistoph »
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VhenRa

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #15 on: 21 June 2021, 00:14:16 »
Raging Horde mercenaries are mostly set up as an Elemental Cluster, with trinaries and 4-point stars of IS troopers and 5-point stars of Clan troopers.

13th Stalking Horse and Wild Geese mercenaries are set up as armored cavalry, with troops/reinforced companies and squadrons/reinforced battalions.  There is mention of the Wild Geese making use of Com Guard Level IIs when it's original commander was replaced.

Wild Geese are described as being made up of three reinforced battalions [called squadrons] made up of six companies [called troops]

Said squadrons are basically combined arms formations. [Made up of Mechs, Hover Armor, VTOLs and BA Infantry].

This is pretty similar to a US Army Armored Cavalry Regiment.

dgorsman

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #16 on: 21 June 2021, 00:29:36 »
Wild Geese are described as being made up of three reinforced battalions [called squadrons] made up of six companies [called troops]

Said squadrons are basically combined arms formations. [Made up of Mechs, Hover Armor, VTOLs and BA Infantry].

This is pretty similar to a US Army Armored Cavalry Regiment.

Which I believe was intentional.
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Blackhorse 6

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #17 on: 16 July 2021, 19:33:00 »
It was but the terminology and organization was distorted in editing by the “writer”.  The Squadrons were shifted back to a standard IS format because it was considered too difficult for the player base to utilize.  I was not in agreement with that.

You are exactly right about their makeup, it’s more or less the Blackhorse Vietnam era MTOE my father and uncles served under with Colonel Patton. 

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #18 on: 26 July 2021, 23:14:41 »
The Word of Blake employed a lot of mercs with upgrades, especially C3i, so I can see those mercs adopting the demi company structure to take advantage of the tech. Same thing with their planetary military.  The Republic of the Sphere has/had a lot of mixed formation types initially given its makeup, and then adapted to a traditional combined arms RCT/brigade arrayed in three layers of green, regular and then elite troops for the larger army.  Comstar's Invader Galaxy, Wolf's Dragoons, and some other Clan derived units used the Clan's Star organization. Others have noted the Augmented Regiment post Jihad Capellan structure.  The Clan Protectorate organizes integrated Marik units into its Clusters.  There's also the Raven Alliance and the former KungsArme of the FRR that are combined Clan/IS/Periphery forces.

If you want some of the really fun military organizations, check out the Periphery powers.  The Marian Hegemony uses neo Roman Republic legions as their main organization. Their lance equivalent is called a century, the same as a Clan Star.

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #19 on: 27 July 2021, 01:20:33 »
Awkward title but couldn't think better.

I started thinking about if any Inner Sphere units use ComStar or Clan formations, or Clans using IS or ComStar or etc? And also wondered if there were any other systems i might not be aware of.
Not in ad hoc capacity but rather having unit that in principle is always organized in some other manner than usual for the faction.

Can anyone think of any other weird or unusual cases?


There are/were 2-3 merc commands that used a square formation. Basically 4 lances to a company, 4 companies to a battalion. Storm's Metal Thunder, Blackstone Highlanders and maybe the the Discouri too? Not sure on the last one.

RifleMech

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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #20 on: 27 July 2021, 14:47:41 »
Wolf's Dragoons Sourcebook and Mercenary's Handbook 3055, lists the Dragoons Organizations.

In their early history many the the Dragoon's line regiments had a command company with 5 lances or platoons and 3 battalions with a command lance and 3 companies each. Many of those companies were combined arms companies with 4-5 lances or platoons. Many of the independent units also had oversized companies.

Later on, some of the line regiments lost their command companies. They also went from 3 Battalions to 5 with the extra lances being stripped from the oversized companies making them more uniform. Independent units still varied. Some of the command units, Battle Armor units, and independent units used Clan organizations or a mix of IS and Clan. Some of the independent units still used oversized IS companies.

Mercenary's Handbook 3055 also has Snord's Irregulars using Clan formations.
 



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Re: "Cross-faction" military structure use
« Reply #21 on: 27 July 2021, 15:08:32 »
It's not uncommon for some smaller Merc units to basically run a Level II, but I think they would call it a reinforced lance or a demi-company, depending on how they operated.  If you have 5 friends with mechs, that's how I would operate it.  Even more so if that's what you needed for your operations.

Edit: And I think the Blood Spirits kept a unit configured as the SLDF, but that could have been the Scorpions.

That sounds like the Scorpions to be honest.  For the Spirits, the 3-star trinary and 5-trinary cluster was holy writ, never to be deviated from.
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