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Author Topic: does a jump point disruption tech exist?  (Read 3993 times)

Cannonshop

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #60 on: 03 December 2021, 07:03:05 »
Where is this defined in the canon?

There’s no size definition where jump points are discussed in SO, p. 134-135.

Googling turns up a preview of Decision at Thunder Rift, which has a sentence: “Jump points were areas spanning several tens of thousands of kilometers, depending on the mass of the star that generated them.”

Is there anything more recent and definitive?
Natasha, you DO realize Cray is why we don't have solar systems filled with jump points, right? He's the guy who wrote the definitions!
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Col Toda

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #61 on: 03 December 2021, 07:17:32 »
Pirate points are temporary and relatively small and most importantly  known and calculable . Mine fields and defense Satellites with ERLRM launchers; Light Gauss or any weapon with extreme range brackets are good .

Maingunnery

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #62 on: 03 December 2021, 07:34:15 »
Pirate points are temporary and relatively small and most importantly  known and calculable . Mine fields and defense Satellites with ERLRM launchers; Light Gauss or any weapon with extreme range brackets are good .
Even pirate points can be pretty large compared to standard weapons range, I would use dormant Capital Missiles as these have more range and could possibly cripple a JS with a single hit.
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Nightlord01

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #63 on: 03 December 2021, 08:21:56 »
So we're basically saying the same thing.

So it would appear. :)

Pirate points are temporary and relatively small and most importantly  known and calculable . Mine fields and defense Satellites with ERLRM launchers; Light Gauss or any weapon with extreme range brackets are good .

Sort of, they are known and calculable, if you know about the system! You need to know where the various gravity wells are in the system at any given time, which is impossible to do if you don't know what and where all of these orbital bodies are to begin with. You could cover them, theoretically, but you would need to expend a massive amount of resources just to build the weapons, not to mention the fuel to keep things going over centuries.

idea weenie

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #64 on: 03 December 2021, 09:59:32 »
Back on topic, I've reviewed my first post in thread, and realised I'd made an error. I'd assumed internally that the jumpship would have a gods eye view and be able to tell how far away a star is just by looking at it, a view I now realise was totally incorrect. When thinking about it, the jumpship crew simply looks at a field of stars that would change significantly every time they jumped, even in more or less a straight line. Given that we can see stars thousands of lightyears away, I'm not seeing any way you could determine whether a star you can see is 5 LY, 50 LY away or 500 LY away without some pretty dedicated effort.

A Jumpship would only be able to tell the flat view, but it does have one advantage - parallax.  A Jumpship could take pictures in a variety of directions (making sure to record directions and critical stars on each), then jump from one of the system's Z/N jump points to the other (N/Z).  Assuming Sol system that would give the Jumpship a baseline of 20 AU to work with, compared to Earth only having a 2 AU baseline.

A Jumpship would still have the base star data from Earth (i.e. the Main Sequence, so it could analyze the star's emissions spectra to determine how powerful the star is, then measure how bright the star is in the picture to get an idea of how far away it is.  For example if you know the amount of energy emitted by a Blue Giant at 100 ly distance, and sensor monitoring the Blue Giant is receiving 4* that much energy, you know that Blue Giant is about 50 ly away.

Even better, that parallax distance doesn't have to wait 6 months to get the new data from the second set of pictures.  A dedicated mainframe on board the Jumpship (or attached Dropship) would be processing through the stellar images, picking out the stars that moved the least and the most.  The ones that moved the least are the farthest away, and the ones that moved the most are the closest.  With known angles and a known baseline, the stars can be triangulated quite nicely.  With a spectroscope to measure their emission spectra, the Jumpship crew can double-check the distances to see how active the star is vs the amount of light you receive.

So you would need some instruments that are sensitive enough to measure precise angles between the local star and the star being observed, and a sensitive enough spectroscope, but a Jumpship could get rough ideas of what stars are what distance away.  Most commercial Jumpships don't have time to perform this sort of exploration, as the Dropships they are hauling need to get to the destination ASAP.  So the Jumpship will just transmit the data to the local Comstar facility for processing, because of course they can be trusted with the data.

cray

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #65 on: 03 December 2021, 10:14:20 »
Where is this defined in the canon?

There’s no size definition where jump points are discussed in SO, p. 134-135.

Right, they blend into the infinite of valid jump space beyond a proximity limit. Standard points are places (per SO p. 134-135) where the influence of planetary gravitation is minimal. However, as noted in that same section, planets generally have negligible influence on a system's proximity limits. This results in guardiandashi's observation:

while it is "simpler" to target the area inside say 0.0001 degrees off axis there is no inherent reason why choosing to target within say 5 degrees of the axis would be significantly harder to calculate, and there shouldn't be much more risk of "finding" a piece of solar debris.

The original proximity limit jumps described in DropShips & JumpShips emphasized arrived on the plane of the ecliptic to cut a few AU off a system transit, closer to where planets' gravitational fields matter and complicate jump calculations.

The exact point where a standard jump point stops and proximity jump point modifiers apply isn't defined, but given the scale of a proximity limit it's not "tens of thousands of kilometers." Millions is conservative.

I mean, if you want I could sit down and calculate the proximity limit gravity field for a given star and then add in the influences of planets like I did in p. 133 StratOps, but what you'd end up finding is that the proximity limit modifiers for jumps are unnecessary.

Finally, using a 10,000 kilometer radius for a jump point and 1 milligram per cubic meter of debris density to "jam" jumps still requires 4,186,666,666,666 tons of dust every few months.

Pirate points are temporary

Some pirate points are temporary. The L1 jump points may stick around indefinitely, even if they move and wiggle around a lot more than standard and proximity points.

Back on topic, I've reviewed my first post in thread, and realised I'd made an error. I'd assumed internally that the jumpship would have a gods eye view and be able to tell how far away a star is just by looking at it, a view I now realise was totally incorrect.

It is canon that JumpShips can do exactly that. p. 134 StratOps:

"...standard jump points can be seen from another star. Modern shipboard astronomical instruments usually can roughly judge the mass of a star and look for the Doppler shift in its light that indicates its rotation, allowing a navigator to get a general idea of the proximity limit and probably the standard jump point location. If the navigator is uncertain then he can always aim further away from the star. You cannot do the same for a LaGrange jump point."

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I'm not seeing any way you could determine whether a star you can see is 5 LY, 50 LY away or 500 LY away without some pretty dedicated effort.

An optical interferometer would do the job just fine. A string of several 50-centimeter optical telescopes along the length of a JumpShip would be able to pin down stars closer than 100 light-years quite exactly.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #66 on: 03 December 2021, 13:37:36 »
Natasha, you DO realize Cray is why we don't have solar systems filled with jump points, right? He's the guy who wrote the definitions!

I’m not trying to debate the head canon of an esteemed fact-checker.  I’m just asking whether that head canon is reflected in a written canon source.  It does not appear to be.

Right, they blend into the infinite of valid jump space beyond a proximity limit.

Sure.  I agree that mining all possible jump space in, near, and around a proximity/standard jump point requires dismantling planets.

But if the definition of jump point in Decision at Thunder Rift — an area [plane] several tens of thousands of kilometers across [call it a 40,000km diameter circle] — encapsulates the volume of practically all jumpship arrivals, then it is possible to mine that. 

A circle with a radius of 20,000km has an area of 1.3+15 square meters.  One milligram per square meter requires 1,300,000 tons.  Two Behemoth dropships, each with a payload just under 75,000 tons, could deliver that mass with margin to spare for packaging and deployment systems.

You’d want to have multiple layers of these debris planes to catch jumpships arriving just above or below.  A small Scout jumpship is 273 meters long, so spreading ten debris planes every 200m or so would mine a volume about 2 kilometers thick against practically all jumpships.  That would require 20 or less Behemoth-equivalent payloads.

That should be enough to cripple nearly all jumpship arrivals at that jump point.  It will stop merchants and bandit raids cold.  Even a regiment-sized force with a handful of jumpships will probably stop trying after losing a jumpship or two and their attendant dropships and troops.  Only a large, determined force that can afford to lose a few jumpships until they get success jumping above/beyond the mined area will eventually make it through.  And that assumes planetary assault forces aren’t just jumping their entire force all at once, as usually depicted, instead of jumping a scout ship in to report back first.

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dust every few months.

I no longer have the astrodynamics chops to calculate this, but since I’m describing disks, I wonder if they could be made stable over much longer timeframes using larger bodies as shepherds, like Saturn’s rings.  Electrostatic forces or fields could also stabilize the debris planes.

Alternately, a crude in-system mass driver could deliver the required mass on a regular basis for probably a small fraction of the cost of dropship delivery.

Or just assume the system’s economy is large enough to afford this effort as a paranoia tax.
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Cannonshop

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #67 on: 03 December 2021, 13:56:32 »
I’m not trying to debate the head canon of an esteemed fact-checker.  I’m just asking whether that head canon is reflected in a written canon source.  It does not appear to be.

Sure.  I agree that mining all possible jump space in, near, and around a proximity/standard jump point requires dismantling planets.

But if the definition of jump point in Decision at Thunder Rift — an area [plane] several tens of thousands of kilometers across [call it a 40,000km diameter circle] — encapsulates the volume of practically all jumpship arrivals, then it is possible to mine that. 

A circle with a radius of 20,000km has an area of 1.3+15 square meters.  One milligram per square meter requires 1,300,000 tons.  Two Behemoth dropships, each with a payload just under 75,000 tons, could deliver that mass with margin to spare for packaging and deployment systems.

You’d want to have multiple layers of these debris planes to catch jumpships arriving just above or below.  A small Scout jumpship is 273 meters long, so spreading ten debris planes every 200m or so would mine a volume about 2 kilometers thick against practically all jumpships.  That would require 20 or less Behemoth-equivalent payloads.

That should be enough to cripple nearly all jumpship arrivals at that jump point.  It will stop merchants and bandit raids cold.  Even a regiment-sized force with a handful of jumpships will probably stop trying after losing a jumpship or two and their attendant dropships and troops.  Only a large, determined force that can afford to lose a few jumpships until they get success jumping above/beyond the mined area will eventually make it through.  And that assumes planetary assault forces aren’t just jumping their entire force all at once, as usually depicted, instead of jumping a scout ship in to report back first.

I no longer have the astrodynamics chops to calculate this, but since I’m describing disks, I wonder if they could be made stable over much longer timeframes using larger bodies as shepherds, like Saturn’s rings.  Electrostatic forces or fields could also stabilize the debris planes.

Alternately, a crude in-system mass driver could deliver the required mass on a regular basis for probably a small fraction of the cost of dropship delivery.

Or just assume the system’s economy is large enough to afford this effort as a paranoia tax.

that's a LOT of slag, and a hell of a lot of energy to distribute it from teh start, plus energy to transport, never mind where you're going to source it.

and there's the sourcing for the raw material-you need to find something common and useless, and be willing to devote significant resources that ARE useful to harvest, transport, and distribution.

and then, you're finite, because you're dismantling whole moons. (Multiple, since your'e going to want to extract everything that IS useful out first.)

I don't think the plan is practical, Natasha, you're trying to construct a passive defense, but you're going to end up using more active resources buiding and then maintaining it, than if you just built an active defense from the start.

But then, I tend to view fixed fortifications as  only useful as temporary obstacles to buy time for reinforcements.  In the original question, the questioner presupposes no outside help is coming.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #68 on: 03 December 2021, 15:02:56 »
that's a LOT of slag, and a hell of a lot of energy to distribute it from teh start, plus energy to transport, never mind where you're going to source it.

Huh?  Reread my post.  It’s only the equivalent of the payloads of 2 to 20 Behemoth dropships.  Multiply that by 3 for the zenith, nadir, and nearby “L1” pirate point and you’ve covered the major approaches to the system.

Those amounts are fractions of annual gravel production in single states in the US today.  So unless the economy of the OP’s system can’t manage a fraction of the gravel output of a minor 21st century Terran political unit, the amount of “slag” required is a non-issue.

So is the energy required.  Thanks to magical fusion drives, dropships routinely move millions of tons of payload from planetary surfaces to zenith/nadir points and back, multiple times, all the time, on very modest amounts of hydrogen fuel.

And as I wrote, if low tens of dropship trips are stumbling blocks, then go with lower-tech mass drivers on a moon or two.

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and then, you're finite, because you're dismantling whole moons. (Multiple, since your'e going to want to extract everything that IS useful out first.)

No, the masses I calculated are measured in the millions — 1000000x —of tons.  Earth’s moon has a mass of 81000000000000000000 tons.

I’m only covering the areas of jump points where nearly all jumpships arrive, as defined in Decision at Thunder Rift.  That doesn’t require the dismantling of planetary bodies.

Other folks in this thread calculated what it would take to cover a much large jump area than that.   They’re right that does require the dismantling of planetary bodies.

But that’s not what I’m doing.  I’m mining the Straits of Hormuz, not the entire Persian Gulf (for example).

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I don't think the plan is practical, Natasha, you're trying to construct a passive defense

If the OP doesn’t have hyperspace Wall technology, suicidal jumpships to sacrifice, aerofighter/assault dropship fleets, or swarms of drone smallcraft, then this, or something like this, is the alternative.  Any of those other defenses takes higher tech or many more resources than using cargo dropships to strew debris in strategic locations.

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But then, I tend to view fixed fortifications as  only useful as temporary obstacles to buy time for reinforcements.

This is different from a fortification that an invader can see and understand.  Here, the invader doesn’t know what happened to their jumpships and dropships after they jump.  They just know that they didn’t come back.  That changes the calculus.

Because I cover likely but not possible approaches, an invader could keep trying until they figure it out.  But only the most determined and well-resourced invader could take that pain without stopping.

And again, that assumes an invader doesn’t jump their entire fleet at once, as usually depicted.
« Last Edit: 03 December 2021, 15:09:48 by Natasha Kerensky »
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Cannonshop

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #69 on: 03 December 2021, 16:44:27 »
Huh?  Reread my post.  It’s only the equivalent of the payloads of 2 to 20 Behemoth dropships.  Multiply that by 3 for the zenith, nadir, and nearby “L1” pirate point and you’ve covered the major approaches to the system.

Those amounts are fractions of annual gravel production in single states in the US today.  So unless the economy of the OP’s system can’t manage a fraction of the gravel output of a minor 21st century Terran political unit, the amount of “slag” required is a non-issue.

So is the energy required.  Thanks to magical fusion drives, dropships routinely move millions of tons of payload from planetary surfaces to zenith/nadir points and back, multiple times, all the time, on very modest amounts of hydrogen fuel.

And as I wrote, if low tens of dropship trips are stumbling blocks, then go with lower-tech mass drivers on a moon or two.

No, the masses I calculated are measured in the millions — 1000000x —of tons.  Earth’s moon has a mass of 81000000000000000000 tons.

I’m only covering the areas of jump points where nearly all jumpships arrive, as defined in Decision at Thunder Rift.  That doesn’t require the dismantling of planetary bodies.

Other folks in this thread calculated what it would take to cover a much large jump area than that.   They’re right that does require the dismantling of planetary bodies.

But that’s not what I’m doing.  I’m mining the Straits of Hormuz, not the entire Persian Gulf (for example).

If the OP doesn’t have hyperspace Wall technology, suicidal jumpships to sacrifice, aerofighter/assault dropship fleets, or swarms of drone smallcraft, then this, or something like this, is the alternative.  Any of those other defenses takes higher tech or many more resources than using cargo dropships to strew debris in strategic locations.

This is different from a fortification that an invader can see and understand.  Here, the invader doesn’t know what happened to their jumpships and dropships after they jump.  They just know that they didn’t come back.  That changes the calculus.

Because I cover likely but not possible approaches, an invader could keep trying until they figure it out.  But only the most determined and well-resourced invader could take that pain without stopping.

And again, that assumes an invader doesn’t jump their entire fleet at once, as usually depicted.

Smart invaders don't bring their force into the front door, Natasha.  They come in outside the jump limit and take pictures first-the main body only comes through after you've done your due diligence.

you know, the 'Scout' part of the Scout jumpship?

or why they call it a 'pirate' point and not a 'nonstandard'.  Invaders that jump in blind, get Case Whitened, and that's without needing to get your fine dust to disperse broadly enough to cover the area you're talking aobut, which includes three, not two, dimensions. (x, y, and Z) so your volume calcs are..well, wrong.  to get your effect with the tonnages you want, you need a pretty even distribution, and space doesn't have air currents, but objects (even dust) do have gravity and want to clump together.

so you'll have to charge your dust, and you'll have to do it in a way that it won't flip poles and pull together, which in turn means you need it close enough to pass an electrostatic charge-in order to maintain your spread, never mind it falling inward.

it's still cheaper to build and maintain a reaction force that has real weapons and doesn't rely on enemy incompetence, Natasha. your most likely entry points are also the ones most likely to be under surveillance by defenders and to have a reaction force in close proximity, even a blind entry is going to angle for the outer edges or for stable points elsewhere in the system, or relatively stable L1 points instead.

passive defense is only good for encouraging overconfidence.

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cray

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #70 on: 03 December 2021, 17:23:56 »
But if the definition of jump point in Decision at Thunder Rift — an area [plane] several tens of thousands of kilometers across [call it a 40,000km diameter circle] — encapsulates the volume of practically all jumpship arrivals, then it is possible to mine that. 

The use of the word "area" is colloquial. Jump points are not flat surfaces - large invasion fleets have arrived in three-dimensional groups. Given the minimum spacing of 27 kilometers from core to core (and the 5000-meter radius of error) this necessarily means stretching far beyond a few kilometers.

Also, JumpShips can clear out "kilograms" of mass in their arrival space. My estimate of a milligram per cubic meter is incorrect. Approximating a JumpShip as a 500-meter long, 100-meter diameter cylinder, it'd take a gram per cubic meter to reach several kilograms.

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I no longer have the astrodynamics chops to calculate this, but since I’m describing disks, I wonder if they could be made stable over much longer timeframes using larger bodies as shepherds, like Saturn’s rings.  Electrostatic forces or fields could also stabilize the debris planes.

It's not the shape that's an issue, it's gravity. At a G2V's proximity limit, stellar gravity is 5.9 x 10^-5 m/s/s. Since proximity limit points including standard points are not in orbit, stuff there falls. In 1 day, a cloud of debris at rest will cross 220 kilometers. In one week, it will fall 10,795 kilometers.

Shepherd objects would need to be in orbit around the star, massive enough to counter the star's gravity across thousands of kilometers, and numerous to constantly pull on the dust clouds.

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Alternately, a crude in-system mass driver could deliver the required mass on a regular basis for probably a small fraction of the cost of dropship delivery.

That would require tossing mass hundreds of millions or billions of kilometers (1.5 billion kilometers in the case of a G2V like Sol). The muzzle velocity required means such material would pass through a 2-kilometer thick jump sheet in seconds, or a 10,000-kilometer diameter jump volume in minutes.
« Last Edit: 03 December 2021, 17:28:21 by cray »
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General308

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #71 on: 03 December 2021, 18:18:56 »
cray,  Would the ideal they are throwing around if putting small particals even work?  Wouldn't the jump bubble just destroy those particals.  I seem to remember a jump buble destroying an areo fighter in a book somewere.   But since they have no gravity would they even stop a jumpship from jumping in?

Honestly the more I think about this trying to block a Zenith or Nadar point or both would just tell someone that something is hiding in the system and give them a reason to find a way in.  I mean you could litterally just calculate jumping a day futher out into space past the Zenith or Nadar point or anywere else around the star system as far away as the zenith or nadar point.     But you are creating a flag that says go here! By attempting to block a point even if you could.

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #72 on: 03 December 2021, 18:51:28 »
cray,  Would the ideal they are throwing around if putting small particals even work?  Wouldn't the jump bubble just destroy those particals.  I seem to remember a jump buble destroying an areo fighter in a book somewere.   But since they have no gravity would they even stop a jumpship from jumping in?

Honestly the more I think about this trying to block a Zenith or Nadar point or both would just tell someone that something is hiding in the system and give them a reason to find a way in.  I mean you could litterally just calculate jumping a day futher out into space past the Zenith or Nadar point or anywere else around the star system as far away as the zenith or nadar point.     But you are creating a flag that says go here! By attempting to block a point even if you could.

Heh, just had the idea of little gravity "mines" that would operate like the Star Wars Interdictor Gravity Wells in that they disrupt Hyperspace travel.  They could be kept on stand-by until the IR sig is detected and just power-up to create a denial field.

Still, that could be a challenge to properly develop such a thing.  It would require knowing what the Jump system is looking for to deny the Jump and then generating a field that can simulate it cheaper than putting station-keeping thrusters on Ceres-sized asteroid.

The next challenge would be to seed such a system.  As mentioned before, space is big.  Like REALLY big.  You can't comprehend just how vastly, hugely, mind-bogglingly big space is.
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cray

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #73 on: 03 December 2021, 19:05:26 »
cray,  Would the ideal they are throwing around if putting small particals even work?  Wouldn't the jump bubble just destroy those particals.

Per Strategic Operations p. 130, JumpShips can only completely clear up to some kilograms. Having a large quantity of particles in a jump field would result in particles surviving and ending up embedded in the arriving ship.

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But since they have no gravity would they even stop a jumpship from jumping in?

No, but they could cause crippling damage. Having a lot of pebbles appear inside a KF core would cause damage, perhaps wrecking it. You might kill the occasional crewmember, too.

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I mean you could litterally just calculate jumping a day futher out into space past the Zenith or Nadar point or anywere else around the star system as far away as the zenith or nadar point.

Correct. The barrier approach only works for a few attempts, until the intruders get the message that's something happening to their ships.

Heh, just had the idea of little gravity "mines" that would operate like the Star Wars Interdictor Gravity Wells in that they disrupt Hyperspace travel. They could be kept on stand-by until the IR sig is detected and just power-up to create a denial field.

The Republic does appear to have something like that for its wall. But, until the relevant publications hit the stand, the method can't be discussed. It also isn't a simple or low tech approach, as originally requested in this thread.

Really, the low tech comes down to hiding the system from maps. "This system was totally not explored, and there are no habitable planets here, nothing to see here, move along."
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**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Cannonshop

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #74 on: 03 December 2021, 19:13:00 »
1. “Space [...] is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly hugely mind-bogglingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the road to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space.”

-Douglas Adams.

this is the problem with trying to erect a 'barrier' of physical items in 3 dimensional space.  Space is big, and your Zenith/Nadir points are just the best balance between a stable point, and closest approach you can bring a lot of ships through at once at.

I mean a lot of ships.  The Zenith and Nadir points alone can accomodate a pretty sizeable number of cores at 27KM separation pretty conveniently and simultaneously.   The best way to put it, is that they're the closest easiest approaches, not the only ones, not the closest ones, not the easiest ones to plot (the easiest ones to plot would be any point PAST the limit), just the closest easy ones...and while relatively small, they're not that small.  Not small enough to easily defend,anyway-at least, if you're absolutely intent on using stationary means to try and defend it like walls, or walls of dust, or gravel, or barriers of some sort.

but take heart: the kind of thinking that says "we can just put a barrier up/rely on static defenses!' is exactly why The Star League, Stephan Amaris, Comstar, The Word of Blake, the Master, and Devlin Stone all lost the Terran system.

All of those above, relied on some form of static defenses at the jump point, all of the above lost said static defense because relying on static defense relies on the enemy to attack you with a force you're ideally suited to overcome from your static defense-iow giving away your initiative and trusting the minefield and harbor chain to keep the invading navy at bay until they grow tired and go home.

This, almost never happens, but it's an extension of the same psychology as the Brian Fortresses that failed to keep New Dallas from being destroyed.  Castles and fortresses and barriers and fortifications only work to delay an enemy for so long, often (see: Maginot Line) they don't work at all because 100% coverage is impossible over long enough distances.

and space is really, really big.

Bigger than the run from the Mediterranean to the North Sea, or the baltic sea (take your pick).

The effort Natasha is championing might work for a story element-but not as a successful defense, it's more akin to showing how desperate, or desperately incompetent, a defender facing invasion is.

Castles and fortresses and other static fortifications only work when help is coming in overwhelming numbers.

thus, if it's your only defense (See: ilClan for an example), you're going to lose. 

Not likely to lose.

Not 'has a slim chance of working' lose,

you're just going to lose.

much the same way that relying on satellites to protect your planet from a mobile invader will lose-they're only useful if help is on the way and you can delay the invaders for a while.  Space warfare is about mobility and initiative, the actual battles don't take particularly long to get decisive unless one side can't firmly pin the other in place for final destruction. Loss of that mobility and initiative leads to defeat. (See: Palmyra).


« Last Edit: 03 December 2021, 19:24:26 by Cannonshop »
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

Nightlord01

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #75 on: 03 December 2021, 19:22:56 »
A Jumpship would only be able to tell the flat view, but it does have one advantage - parallax.  A Jumpship could take pictures in a variety of directions (making sure to record directions and critical stars on each), then jump from one of the system's Z/N jump points to the other (N/Z).  Assuming Sol system that would give the Jumpship a baseline of 20 AU to work with, compared to Earth only having a 2 AU baseline.

A Jumpship would still have the base star data from Earth (i.e. the Main Sequence, so it could analyze the star's emissions spectra to determine how powerful the star is, then measure how bright the star is in the picture to get an idea of how far away it is.  For example if you know the amount of energy emitted by a Blue Giant at 100 ly distance, and sensor monitoring the Blue Giant is receiving 4* that much energy, you know that Blue Giant is about 50 ly away.

Even better, that parallax distance doesn't have to wait 6 months to get the new data from the second set of pictures.  A dedicated mainframe on board the Jumpship (or attached Dropship) would be processing through the stellar images, picking out the stars that moved the least and the most.  The ones that moved the least are the farthest away, and the ones that moved the most are the closest.  With known angles and a known baseline, the stars can be triangulated quite nicely.  With a spectroscope to measure their emission spectra, the Jumpship crew can double-check the distances to see how active the star is vs the amount of light you receive.

So you would need some instruments that are sensitive enough to measure precise angles between the local star and the star being observed, and a sensitive enough spectroscope, but a Jumpship could get rough ideas of what stars are what distance away.  Most commercial Jumpships don't have time to perform this sort of exploration, as the Dropships they are hauling need to get to the destination ASAP.  So the Jumpship will just transmit the data to the local Comstar facility for processing, because of course they can be trusted with the data.

Is there actually any evidence that a run of the mill trade jumpship does this?

Cannonshop

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #76 on: 03 December 2021, 19:28:57 »
Is there actually any evidence that a run of the mill trade jumpship does this?

given that misjumps are frequent, and that navigation is a skill, and space navigation relies on astronomy, you won't sell many trade jumpships that don't have this.

Not even on fixed routes, because the operators want to get the resale value out of the hull once it passes it's D-check date and there's no resale value on a ship that can't conn, and little worth retaining for an operator who might want to change routes to pick up more profitable markets if, say, the mining colony pulls dry or the ag colony has an unprofitable revolution and burns your customers alive.

A trader might never USE it, but they won't buy one that doesn't HAVE it.  Kind of like how your local construction firm may never have a use for horns or headlamps, but they damn well make sure their site-trucks have them.
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

cray

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #77 on: 03 December 2021, 19:31:17 »
Is there actually any evidence that a run of the mill trade jumpship does this?

Yes, p. 134, StratOps says that standard JumpShips can gauge the location of standard jump points in other star systems. That necessarily involves a good job measuring the distance to the target:

Quote
I mean, standard jump points can be seen from another star.
Modern shipboard astronomical instruments usually can roughly
judge the mass of a star and look for the Doppler shift in its
light that indicates its rotation, allowing a navigator to get a
general idea of the proximity limit and probably the standard
jump point location. If the navigator's uncertain, he can always
aim further away from the star. You cannot do the same for a
LaGrange jump point.

A trader might never USE it, but they won't buy one that doesn't HAVE it.  Kind of like how your local construction firm may never have a use for horns or headlamps, but they damn well make sure their site-trucks have them.

Excellent point.

Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

**"A man walks down the street in that hat, people know he's not afraid of anything." --Wash, Firefly.
**"Well, the first class name [for pocket WarShips]: 'Ship with delusions of grandeur that is going to evaporate 3.1 seconds after coming into NPPC range' tended to cause morale problems...." --Korzon77
**"Describe the Clans." "Imagine an entire civilization built out of 80’s Ric Flairs, Hulk Hogans, & Macho Man Randy Savages ruling over an entire labor force with Einstein Level Intelligence." --Jake Mikolaitis


Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.

Nightlord01

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #78 on: 03 December 2021, 19:53:45 »
Yes, p. 134, StratOps says that standard JumpShips can gauge the location of standard jump points in other star systems. That necessarily involves a good job measuring the distance to the target:

Ahh, ok. Fair enough then. I might have major issues with what they've written there, but, if it's canon so be it.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #79 on: 03 December 2021, 20:35:51 »
Smart invaders don't bring their force into the front door, Natasha.  They come in outside the jump limit and take pictures first-the main body only comes through after you've done your due diligence.

I agree in the abstract.  That’s just not what we see in the canon.  Except when the SLDF was driving on Terra and had to take out the SDS systems that Amaris had hijacked, I don’t recall another instance of jumps to clear or certify a jump point in advance of an invasion force.  Even the vaunted ComGuards and Dragoons jumped right into swarms of Blakist drones in the Terran system at the outset of the Jihad.  Based on his post, the OP needs to deter merchants, bandits, and maybe a Circinian regiment or Marian legion at most, not SLDF divisions, ComGuards, elite mercs, or even a major House force.

Quote
or why they call it a 'pirate' point and not a 'nonstandard'

I addressed the major “L1” pirate point above.  We don’t know enough to say whether there are transient pirate points in the OP’s system.  But those are the risky domain of elite navigators like the Kell Hounds employed, anyway.  It’s reasonable to assume the OP’s system isn’t facing such over-competent opposition.

Quote
which includes three, not two, dimensions

The part of a jump point that actually gets used for jumps appears to be a thin disk positioned just outside the proximity boundary.  I mined to some thickness to capture some randomness in jumpship arrivals.

Quote
so you'll have to charge your dust and you'll have to do it in a way that it won't flip poles and pull together, which in turn means you need it close enough to pass an electrostatic charge-in order to maintain your spread, never mind it falling inward.

I don’t see how charged dust particles or electrostatic fields are showstoppers.

Quote
it's still cheaper to build and maintain a reaction force that has real weapons and doesn't rely on enemy incompetence

I guess it depends on how you define your reaction force.  But it’s hard to see how a force of suicidal jumpships, aerofighters, assault dropships, and/or militarized drones capable of stopping a multi-regiment invasion force would be less expensive to develop and field than some combination of lots of dust, cargo dropship runs, low-power electrostatic fields, and/or targets, tugs, and mass drivers.

Don’t get me wrong.  I’d rather have the active reaction force.  But that’s not what the OP was asking about.  They wanted to know if there was a way to deny jump point arrivals short of hyperspace Wall technology.  I provided one.

The use of the word "area" is colloquial. Jump points are not flat surfaces

Unless there’s a source in the canon stating such, that appears to be open to interpretation based on the Decision at Thunder Rift passage and multiple references to jumpships arriving as close to the proximity boundary as possible and safe.  I’m not saying jumpships never jump outside that 30,000km to 40,000km diameter disk.  But if you’re going to mine against the vast majority of jump traffic, that’s where you mine.

Quote
large invasion fleets have arrived in three-dimensional groups.

Is there a reference in the written canon supporting this?

I can think of art that looks three-dimensional but could easily be interpreted as depicting jumpships/warships arriving a kilometer or two apart.

Quote
Given the minimum spacing of 27 kilometers from core to core (and the 5000-meter radius of error) this necessarily means stretching far beyond a few kilometers.

There’s no need for invaders to resort to the z-dimension.  We can nearly double the spacing between jumpships to 50km, and a disk with a diameter of 40,000km will still accommodate over 2 million jumpships.

Quote
Also, JumpShips can clear out "kilograms" of mass in their arrival space.

Is this stated somewhere in the canon?

Quote
it'd take a gram per cubic meter to reach several kilograms.

If accurate, this could be a showstopper.  Now we’re talking about thousands or tens of thousands of dropship runs to fill the disk.

cray,  Would the ideal they are throwing around if putting small particals even work?  Wouldn't the jump bubble just destroy those particals.

K-F fields do destroy small amounts of matter at the destination up to some limit.  Beyond that limit, the jump fails.  The question is what that limit is in the canon.  If it is
high enough to require grams instead of milligrams per square meter, then my scheme won’t work absent maintaining a derelict warship or other large target and a working tug at the jump point and using a mass driver to shoot at the target regularly to create and replenish the debris field.

Quote
Honestly the more I think about this trying to block a Zenith or Nadar point or both would just tell someone that something is hiding in the system and give them a reason to find a way in.  I mean you could litterally just calculate jumping a day futher out into space past the Zenith or Nadar point or anywere else around the star system as far away as the zenith or nadar point.     But you are creating a flag that says go here!

The problem for raiders/invaders is two-fold.  One, there’s practically no scouting of jump points in the BT canon.  A small bandit force won’t have the spare jumpships, anyway, and major invasion forces routinely jump en masse.  Two, even if an invader sends a scout, the invader doesn’t know what happened to the scout.  In the case of the OP, for all the invader knows, Kerensky’s SLDF-in-Exile Fleet is waiting in-system.  The invader won’t know whether to assume a mis jump and try again, jump further out, try a different jump point, come in with a larger force and guns blazing, etc.  The total lack of information is likely to lead to more losses and deter the invasion.
« Last Edit: 03 December 2021, 20:58:29 by Natasha Kerensky »
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #80 on: 03 December 2021, 20:56:08 »
Per Strategic Operations p. 130, JumpShips can only completely clear up to some kilograms.

I see this reference now.  That amount does require an unreasonably large dropship fleet to supply or resupply a debris field.

If the OP’s system had some dropship tugs to carry targets (small asteroids, derelict ships) to the jump points and some mass drivers in system to fire small masses at those targets, that could supply and resupply debris fields.  But between the precision targeting, the unspec’d mass drivers, and the potential rarity of tugs, there’s more handwavium involved than just cargo dropships and dust.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Cannonshop

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #81 on: 03 December 2021, 21:24:00 »
I agree in the abstract.  That’s just not what we see in the canon.  Except when the SLDF was driving on Terra and had to take out the SDS systems that Amaris had hijacked, I don’t recall another instance of jumps to clear or certify a jump point in advance of an invasion force.  Even the vaunted ComGuards and Dragoons jumped right into swarms of Blakist drones in the Terran system at the outset of the Jihad.  Based on his post, the OP needs to deter merchants, bandits, and maybe a Circinian regiment or Marian legion at most, not SLDF divisions, ComGuards, elite mercs, or even a major House force.

comstar being incompetent and the Dragoons being OVER confident is proof more of their incompetence and overconfidence, than anything else.  Both were instances in which the invaders failed to scout. OTOH, circinian regiments and Marian Legions do scout ahead, because they're not used to being overpoweringly superior to the local savages on a technological and firepower level.

Quote
I addressed the major “L1” pirate point above.  We don’t know enough to say whether there are transient pirate points in the OP’s system.  But those are the risky domain of elite navigators like the Kell Hounds employed, anyway.  It’s reasonable to assume the OP’s system isn’t facing such over-competent opposition.

any successful periphery bandit knows how to hit those, Natasha.  That makes it pretty much 'common' not 'elite' as a skill.  most of your pirate and bandit kings do it routinely-it's how they make their livings.  see again "Pirate Point" as opposed to "Elite Military Navigation Point".

Quote
The part of a jump point that actually gets used for jumps appears to be a thin disk positioned just outside the proximity boundary.  I mined to some thickness to capture some randomness in jumpship arrivals.

I don’t see how charged dust particles or electrostatic fields are showstoppers.

it's called 'cost' and 'Maintenance'.  You'll end up spending as much processing the stuff and maintaining it, as you would on a good fleet of competently crewed vessels, for less return.

Quote
I guess it depends on how you define your reaction force.  But it’s hard to see how a force of suicidal jumpships, aerofighters, assault dropships, and/or militarized drones capable of stopping a multi-regiment invasion force would be less expensive to develop and field than some combination of lots of dust, cargo dropship runs, low-power electrostatic fields, and/or targets, tugs, and mass drivers.

Don’t get me wrong.  I’d rather have the active reaction force.  But that’s not what the OP was asking about.  They wanted to know if there was a way to deny jump point arrivals short of hyperspace Wall technology.  I provided one.

Unless there’s a source in the canon stating such, that appears to be open to interpretation based on the Decision at Thunder Rift passage and multiple references to jumpships arriving as close to the proximity boundary as possible and safe.  I’m not saying jumpships never jump outside that 30,000km to 40,000km diameter disk.  But if you’re going to mine against the vast majority of jump traffic, that’s where you mine.

Is there a reference in the written canon supporting this?

I can think of art that looks three-dimensional but could easily be interpreted as depicting jumpships/warships arriving a kilometer or two apart.

There’s no need for invaders to resort to the z-dimension.  We can nearly double the spacing between jumpships to 50km, and a disk with a diameter of 40,000km will still accommodate over 2 million jumpships.

Is this stated somewhere in the canon?

If accurate, this could be a showstopper.  Now we’re talking about thousands or tens of thousands of dropship runs to fill the disk.

K-F fields do destroy small amounts of matter at the destination up to some limit.  Beyond that limit, the jump fails.  The question is what that limit is in the canon.  If it is
high enough to require grams instead of milligrams per square meter, then my scheme won’t work absent maintaining a derelict warship or other large target and a working tug at the jump point and using a mass driver to shoot at the target regularly to create and replenish the debris field.

The problem for raiders/invaders is two-fold.  One, there’s practically no scouting of jump points in the BT canon.  A small bandit force won’t have the spare jumpships, anyway, and major invasion forces routinely jump en masse.  Two, even if an invader sends a scout, the invader doesn’t know what happened to the scout.  In the case of the OP, for all the invader knows, Kerensky’s SLDF-in-Exile Fleet is waiting in-system.  The invader won’t know whether to assume a mis jump and try again, jump further out, try a different jump point, come in with a larger force and guns blazing, etc.  The total lack of information is likely to lead to more losses and deter the invasion.
Depends where you send your scout, doesn't it?  I drop a scout, say, 1 day past the limit (one extra day to burn inward) and off-angle, I can use my telescopes to scope out your entire setup in the next few days, including getting some nice albedo from your dust-cloud, and odds are best you wont' even be looking in the right direction, much less see me.  This type of conflict really DOES favor the attacker, see, because you can't maintain enough surveillance even in a capital system to be watching, but like the guy with a flashlight on an open plain at night, everything you do is visible because I'm looking in the right directions with sensors so common they come fitted to commercial trash-haulers (they're called 'Telescopes' and they don't have an emission spectrum for your radiotelescopes to listen in on if they happen to be pointed the right way, which odds-on, they're not.)

I can listen to your radio scatter, listen to your comm traffic, take pictures of your bases, patrols, and measures, and be home in time for sunday brunch.

that's what a naval scout does, but it's ALSO what a pirate group who wants what you have does-because the more they know going in, the richer the haul coming out.  It's the same as casing a house before you burgle it, or doing your due diligence before robbing a bank-you want to know where the valuable stuff is kept, so you can take it away with the minimum resistance, because fixing broken equipment costs money and cuts into your profits.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."-Samuel Adams

elf25s

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #82 on: 03 December 2021, 22:18:03 »
cray dont i recall something you mentioned while back  about space  being "relatively flat" to have an access to a jump point formation? that and having "relatively empty"space?
i did mention world/s is an experimental station  after all so what if the "flat" space had been some how affected either by tech or natural sources?
keep in mind it had been very long time since i read something about it
you sure cannot out run death...but sure as hell you can make that bastard work for it!

General308

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #83 on: 03 December 2021, 22:18:19 »
ok i want to know had the tech to disrupt a jump point exist? prior to 3100?
 
i want to run a periphery campaign just prior  or around 3055 with a world that had blocked the jump points in its system just after the fall of sl either by accident or design that left world or worlds locked out from rest of the inner sphere

world or worlds have tech that would put clan tech at least 500 to 1000 years behind and sl era stuff would be almost unrecognizable
but because of the world/s being isolated no one even remembers that world not even comstar as a result tech went figuretvely speaking boom! in advancements.

world would be just outside steiners space not too far from clan wedge so u can use either innerspgere or clan characters...and mechs

I mean you could always have Caspers.   I mean I know they aren't supose to be there.  But if you were going to have a system that had something going on so important you make going to a jumpoint impossiable that would do the trick.   

But really the best way is just a planet that was never put on the map or earsed from the map.

Natasha Kerensky

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #84 on: 03 December 2021, 22:40:13 »
OTOH, circinian regiments and Marian Legions do scout ahead, because they're not used to being overpoweringly superior to the local savages on a technological and firepower level.

No.  I wrote the Circinus entry in FM: Periphery.  On top of the operational norms we see in BT canon, Circinian military history is rife with stupidity, especially when the McIntyres took direct control of the Black Warriors.

Quote
any successful periphery bandit knows how to hit those, Natasha.

No.  Transient points require a lot of very up to date data and the ability and skill to process it that common Periphery bandit scum simply won’t have access to.  Even then, transient points entail additional risk that won’t be undertaken unless the operation is important enough and requires it.  For bandits, there are always less risky targets.

Quote
Depends where you send your scout, doesn't it?  I drop a scout, say, 1 day past the limit (one extra day to burn inward) and off-angle, I can use my telescopes to scope out your entire setup in the next few days, including getting some nice albedo from your dust-cloud

It’s a blind scenario.  In-universe traders, raiders, and invaders won’t know to do this, and it goes against the operational norms we see in the BT canon, anyway.  The only reason you can develop such a scenario is because I’ve told you what the defenses are ahead of time.  No one attacking the OP’s system will have that knowledge.

Quote
it's ALSO what a pirate group who wants what you have does-because the more they know going in, the richer the haul coming out

What little recon that we have seen bandit scum perform in the BT universe is human intel — the bandits pay or blackmail or position someone on the inside to tell them where the loot is, when the garrison force is off-planet, etc.  That’s not going to work in the OP’s scenario.  Their star system is closed.  They have no one coming in or going out.
"Ah, yes.  The belle dame sans merci.  The sweet young thing who will blast your nuts off.  The kitten with a whip.  That mystique?"
"Slavish adherence to formal ritual is a sign that one has nothing better to think about."
"Variety is the spice of battle."
"I've fought in... what... a hundred battles, a thousand battles?  It could be a million as far as I know.  I've fought for anybody who offered a decent contract and a couple who didn't.  And the universe is not much different after all that.  I could go on fighting for another hundred years and it would still look the same."
"I'm in mourning for my life."
"Those who break faith with the Unity shall go down into darkness."

Cannonshop

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #85 on: 03 December 2021, 23:18:31 »
No.  I wrote the Circinus entry in FM: Periphery.  On top of the operational norms we see in BT canon, Circinian military history is rife with stupidity, especially when the McIntyres took direct control of the Black Warriors.

No.  Transient points require a lot of very up to date data and the ability and skill to process it that common Periphery bandit scum simply won’t have access to.  Even then, transient points entail additional risk that won’t be undertaken unless the operation is important enough and requires it.  For bandits, there are always less risky targets.

and yet, they call them "Pirate Points" and (*at least, before you got your time in the writing room) they were mainly known for pirate operations, because they were used commonly and frequently that it was common vernacular, Nat.  Not "Elite super-elite-super-navigator points" but methods for ships hired by pirates to get them in and out before the locals killed them.

Quote
It’s a blind scenario.  In-universe traders, raiders, and invaders won’t know to do this, and it goes against the operational norms we see in the BT canon, anyway.  The only reason you can develop such a scenario is because I’ve told you what the defenses are ahead of time.  No one attacking the OP’s system will have that knowledge.

What little recon that we have seen bandit scum perform in the BT universe is human intel — the bandits pay or blackmail or position someone on the inside to tell them where the loot is, when the garrison force is off-planet, etc.  That’s not going to work in the OP’s scenario.  Their star system is closed.  They have no one coming in or going out.


so again, your entire strategy is based on "Everyone is stupid and/or incompetent."

« Last Edit: 03 December 2021, 23:54:06 by Cannonshop »
"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
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Natasha Kerensky

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #86 on: 04 December 2021, 00:32:02 »
and yet, they call them "Pirate Points"

There are pirate points near L1 points that bandits can track and utilize with relative ease.  I’m talking about transient points, which represent another order of magnitude or more of complexity.

But the safest strategy for any bandit is to pick an undefended target (no garrison or the garrison is away) so you can come and go from a more reliable zenith or nadir point and loot and pillage with impunity.
 
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so again, your entire strategy is based on "Everyone is stupid and/or incompetent."

No.  Not knowing something in-universe is not the same thing as being stupid or incompetent.

The first soldiers to step on the first minefields weren’t being stupid or incompetent.  They just didn’t know that the mines existed.
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guardiandashi

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #87 on: 04 December 2021, 02:25:33 »
cray,  Would the ideal they are throwing around if putting small particals even work?  Wouldn't the jump bubble just destroy those particals.  I seem to remember a jump buble destroying an areo fighter in a book somewere.   But since they have no gravity would they even stop a jumpship from jumping in?

Honestly the more I think about this trying to block a Zenith or Nadar point or both would just tell someone that something is hiding in the system and give them a reason to find a way in.  I mean you could litterally just calculate jumping a day futher out into space past the Zenith or Nadar point or anywere else around the star system as far away as the zenith or nadar point.     But you are creating a flag that says go here! By attempting to block a point even if you could.
as I remember the material especially the older material the jump effects for things not specifically taken into effect by being linked to the KF drive system are pretty brutal the part that is not exactly clear is exactly what causes the damage.  some of the material describes it as tidal stresses which definitely implies "gravity" may be a factor.  notes about the dangers of pirate points also indicate that many of the effects are relatively speaking pretty short ranged but km in range definitely seems to be the case.

my interpretation might be wrong but I always felt that the IR pulse was more of a side effect rather than a direct effect. with that said in MY head I see several main possibilities:
1 the forming of the jump field is essentially a grav "lance" IE it sort of "rips" a pair of holes in the "fabric" of spacetime in a semi uncontrolled manner and "pieces" of anything not properly accounted for is essentially randomly bent, folded, spindled, and otherwise mutilated by the arrival and departure in a lot of ways this is the simplest explanation.

2 the forming jump field works is kind of like the "digitizer" from the movie Tron and takes everything apart at a low level, (I am thinking atomic or sub atomic) and things are transferred to the destination location and reassembled, anythign in the departure field effect or the arrival that is not fully accounted for leaves and or arrives in a semi random way.  the biggest issue with this explanation is how does the drive (projector) go and/or either reassemble itself
« Last Edit: 04 December 2021, 02:34:26 by guardiandashi »

cray

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #88 on: 04 December 2021, 07:43:56 »
cray dont i recall something you mentioned while back  about space  being "relatively flat" to have an access to a jump point formation? that and having "relatively empty"space?

"Flat" means that the gravity levels at the jump point are equal to or less than the gravity found at the star's proximity limit.

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i did mention world/s is an experimental station  after all so what if the "flat" space had been some how affected either by tech or natural sources?

You'd need gravity generators able to affect large regions of space. Potentially generating more gravity than the star. Gravity control isn't a BT technology, but even if you introduced it at your research lab it'd need to work on very large scales. This sort of fails the "low tech" requirement you had.

You could do something like putting the remote colony at a pair of neutron stars. It'd be on a lifeless planet but JumpShips would never visit casually and they'd always be worried about the gravity waves coming off the circling neutron stars.
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Jellico

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Re: does a jump point disruption tech exist?
« Reply #89 on: 04 December 2021, 08:49:52 »
it's called 'cost' and 'Maintenance'.  You'll end up spending as much processing the stuff and maintaining it, as you would on a good fleet of competently crewed vessels, for less return.
Depends where you send your scout, doesn't it?  I drop a scout, say, 1 day past the limit (one extra day to burn inward) and off-angle, I can use my telescopes to scope out your entire setup in the next few days, including getting some nice albedo from your dust-cloud, and odds are best you wont' even be looking in the right direction, much less see me.  This type of conflict really DOES favor the attacker, see, because you can't maintain enough surveillance even in a capital system to be watching, but like the guy with a flashlight on an open plain at night, everything you do is visible because I'm looking in the right directions with sensors so common they come fitted to commercial trash-haulers (they're called 'Telescopes' and they don't have an emission spectrum for your radiotelescopes to listen in on if they happen to be pointed the right way, which odds-on, they're not.)

I can listen to your radio scatter, listen to your comm traffic, take pictures of your bases, patrols, and measures, and be home in time for sunday brunch.

that's what a naval scout does, but it's ALSO what a pirate group who wants what you have does-because the more they know going in, the richer the haul coming out.  It's the same as casing a house before you burgle it, or doing your due diligence before robbing a bank-you want to know where the valuable stuff is kept, so you can take it away with the minimum resistance, because fixing broken equipment costs money and cuts into your profits.

Clan style in the good old pre-3130 days. Hunter JumpShip jumps in. Deploys a DropShip and leaves. DropShip deploys a constellation of passive observation satellites based around a QR 243 (HPG equipped relay/spy sat). Hunter returns, picks up DropShip. A decade later someone notices the QR 243 which boobytraps itself.

Then realise the Star League and ComStar had the predecessor models of the QR 243...

There are a lot of opportunities for passive observation in this game. There is a reason I say anything visible in system is vulnerable target because an enemy will always know the exact countermeasure necessary.