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Author Topic: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player  (Read 8665 times)

Xan

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #270 on: 09 June 2021, 18:18:26 »
Good news!

https://bg.battletech.com/download/BATTLETECH%20ForcePacks%20Record%20Sheets%20-%20Wave%20One.pdf

I assume a second volume will be released for the wave 2 packs. It would have been ideal to advertise this on or in the packaging, but I'm not sure it existed yet when the wave 1 stuff went to print

That is awesome!  Thank you for showing me that.  I guess ignore that portion of my rant. 


Orcygoodness

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #271 on: 10 June 2021, 02:28:26 »
One thing that I think is really great about Battletech is the community is enthusiastic and genuinely interested in the health of the community rather than their own interests.
There are a number of good ideas in this thread that I think are worth considering.
But the OP raises an issue that newbies encounter and the more newbies that can explain the issues, would make it easier to provide a solution.

idea weenie

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #272 on: 10 June 2021, 05:13:50 »
How about we start out with a 'Militia' book.  It contains a set of mechs that are common to nearly all factions, and just the slight differences would be listed.  This would allow for Lance on Lance fights and say that they are raiding each other for some McGuffin, spare supplies behind them, or just to weaken this part of the border for a future offensive.  It could even represent a world's defenders trying to hold off a pirate formation so the pirates don't loot the town again.

This would be primarily 3025-era technology but could be set at nearly any time in the BT history.  The fight would be explained as two small units fighting each other, the sort of thing that occurs multiple times each day somewhere in Human-inhabited space.  Provide basic histories and tactics used with the different units, similar to a TRO.  Provide a page with black & white outlines of pictures of the Mechs, so they can be printed, cut out, colored, and labeled for use in a game in case there aren't enough models available (for some reason).  Have a few of the PaperMechs be in the picture of a board game, so there is official support for using Paper cutouts in games.  The caption might read:
"Kelly wanted to see how swapping in a Phoenix Hawk would work with her existing Lance, so used one of the paper stand-ins to represent it.  If Kelly is satisfied with its performance she can then buy the actual model to show off her painting skills.  Her rival is using a Mech that was designed using the Tech Manual, and as a result they hand-drew the custom Mech on a piece of paper so it would be easy to identify."  (Follow with another picture of the Lance, but with with two painted Phoenix Hawks)  "Seems that Kelly liked the Phoenix Hawk"


This introduces the basic rules for BT, and has both history and fluff at the end tailored for the different factions (the different Houses, the Periphery nations, pirates, various mercs, even Clan forces who were watching their solahma troops fighting), and provides basic images that can be printed out for ease of play.  Players can play multiple battles like this, read the history and fluff for the different groups, and decide which type of group they prefer.  They can then pick up dedicated books for the different groups giving them more information about that faction and advanced equipment/Mechs that side will field.  Another option is the Tech Manual Books for the rules to design their own Mechs/Vehs/infantry/Battlearmor/buildings/other surface stuff.  The faction books would have multiple black and white outlines for the Mechs listed within, so players can print those pages out and rapidly assemble a Lance (or company) with various Mechs.

The number of Mechs on each page being printed out would be a subtle hint as to the standard ratio of the Mechs.  I.e. if a nation's mix of Mechs tends to be 20% light, 40% medium, 30% heavy, and 10%, then on a single page there might be 10 Mechs, of which there are 2 Light Mechs, 4 Medium Mechs, 3 Heavy Mechs, and 1 Assault Mech.  You could even set it up where all the Striker Mechs are on one page, all the Brawlers are on another page, etc.  Another sneaky trick would be making the base of each Mech be just under the width (corner to corner) of a CGL-sourced map hex.  Basically the players can use any map they want, but the CGL-supplied maps are a better fit.

The other detail would be fixing the problems listed by CVB in his posts here and here.  The webmaster may wind up listing all the site pages in increasing order of date changed, and fixing the oldest ones first.

Another detail from the Wave one pdf in Satris' post here, would be double-checking the images with the Mech weapons.  I.e. on page 54 you have the Locust LCT-3D, which is listed as using an LRM-5 in each arm.  However the Mech image shows three weapons, none of which look like a missile launcher.


To me the key is to provide this roadmap to the players.  A relatively easy entry, easy options to find more fluff (and add in some bonus tech/Mechs), an easy option to make your own units, official images that match the Mech design (but letting the players know they can use proxies), and a steady power creep so CGL is able to make more money.

Aotrs Commander

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #273 on: 11 June 2021, 04:09:52 »
Don't have time to read through the whole thread, but in support of the OP, when I came back to BT last year-ish after a haitus of just before the FedCom Civil War stuff, trying to locate all the relevant rules to get up-to-date was extremely confusing, even starting from the point I already had Total War and the Tech Manual (to the point of having to come and ask what version of the TacOps I needed, and despite getting that and BattleMech Manual, STILL some equipment wasn't in there). In the end, given the lack of either an online or sourcebook master equipment table (because searching through several books to try and find out what one weapon did is a really bad sign) and made my own, and even that would have been difficult without Sarna and some luck on google searching.

When I started, BattleTech Rules compendium and later BMR plus Max Tech was simple and clearly obviously titled.

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #274 on: 11 June 2021, 04:41:32 »
)mine would be blue, brown, and yellow.
Bruise coloured.

Elmoth

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #275 on: 11 June 2021, 08:04:06 »
Bruise coloured.

Considering Jade's picture, I can see that preference.

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #276 on: 12 June 2021, 14:52:14 »
One thing I find interesting is that after 10 pages no one has mentioned the House Arano book. While it doesn't provide every wishlist item mentioned in this thread it does provide more scenarios using the maps and miniatures from the Beginner's and Game of Armored Combat Boxed Sets, with fairly simple rules to create more scenarios and bring in more Mechs or even string the scenarios together into a mini-campaign. It also tells you exactly where to go to get the rules for any of the more advanced optional content in the book. It seems to be quite optimized to get players with only the box sets and familiarity with the HBS Battletech PC game further into Battletech the tabletop game.

Maybe it is a lack of familiarity with this product, or the perception that it's only a faction sourcebook that has resulted in it (Edit: not) being seen as a valuable resource for newer players, even though about half of the book is new-player friendly rules and scenarios. Even the scenario forces try to subtly show new players what a light recon force, or a fire support lance, or heavy assault lance should look like within the limitations of the miniatures in the 2 Box sets. I think if there was more emphasis on its usefulness as a resource for new players it would help with some of the issues brought up in this thread. Also, scenario books modeled on the second half of the House Arano book and the starter books like Fist and Falcon, Sword and Dragon, and Blake and Wolf only using currently in-production products could give new players things to latch onto while still attracting older players. I am also in favor of new Combat Manuals. 

Also, for all the comparisons to other tabletop miniatures games Battletech shares as much with pen and paper RPGs like D&D as it does with mini games. I think that is part of why there is confusion when players first see the game especially if they are thinking Battletech is like WH40k, if people thought of it as more like D&D with Mechs as basically characters would there be as much confusion about the lack of Codex-like books and how little faction origin matters to the game as played? Record sheets are basically just pre-generated character sheets, something that RPGs are moving more and more towards. I think that's also why pick-up games can be difficult to set up, because setting up a pick-up game of Battletech is only slightly easier than setting up a pick-up game of D&D for many of the same reasons. Battletech almost defies categorisation, as earlier in this thread illustrated with the arguments over what to even classify Battletech as. Is it a board game, a miniatures game, a Mech RPG? All of those? None of those? Semantic arguments can be made for all those answers, and mostly comes down to how each individual player chooses to play Battletech and what elements they emphasize. So while it may scare some people off and not be the most helpful answer initially, in the long run stating up front that Battletech is a tabletop game with a wide variety of options to experience, and that it's up to the player and their group to decide what they want their own Battletech experience to be maybe the best description for new players. Even though like an open world RPG it might initially be overwhelming to new players by helping them to start small and build progressively upwards we can emphasize and encourage Battletech's arguably biggest strength, which is in my opinion player agency.
« Last Edit: 12 June 2021, 18:12:01 by Guardian11 »

Daryk

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #277 on: 12 June 2021, 16:14:42 »
Very well said!  :thumbsup:

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #278 on: 12 June 2021, 23:11:59 »
I mentioned the House Arano book in a semi-related thread about faction codices, but only in the context of something I haven’t purchased yet; it’s on my to-buy list. ;D

I basically agree with everything Guardian11 said right there.
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General308

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #279 on: 13 June 2021, 08:04:53 »
I have been thinking about this and I think something that could help new players is if record sheets printed any extra weapons or equipment rules on the record sheet.  I don't know if they could get them all in the front.   I think they could since I have seem some record sheets with charts on them.  But if not on the front on the back.   


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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #281 on: 13 June 2021, 09:55:14 »
Like this?

https://bg.battletech.com/forums/general-discussion/gear-cards-game-aids-for-new-and-forgetful-players/

That would work.  But would be best if it was somehow on the front or back of the record sheet.


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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #282 on: 13 June 2021, 10:07:23 »
That would work.  But would be best if it was somehow on the front or back of the record sheet.

Given that the back of the record sheet is nominally blank, I think it would make perfect sense to print reminders or utility information there.

Printing the effects of the heat scale on the record sheet was probably one of the greatest quality of life improvements made to the sheets since the beginning.

Greatclub

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #283 on: 13 June 2021, 10:57:18 »
Given that the back of the record sheet is nominally blank, I think it would make perfect sense to print reminders or utility information there.

Printing the effects of the heat scale on the record sheet was probably one of the greatest quality of life improvements made to the sheets since the beginning.

It's been like that since at least citytech I.

klarg1

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #284 on: 13 June 2021, 13:19:44 »
It's been like that since at least citytech I.

Has it?

Well, then I'll chalk it up to my own faulty memory. I think General308's point on adding information is still a good one.

Lorcan Nagle

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #285 on: 13 June 2021, 13:56:46 »
Originally the heat scale section of the sheet was much wider and had the negative effects written in beside the heat level. I think it was the Total Warfare redesign that changed that section so the heat scale was just a row of numbers with a box beside it listing the effects.
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Sartris

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #286 on: 13 June 2021, 14:05:25 »
Data in the back would double the page count for record sheets. This has negative consequences for sheets that are included in print products. They’re moving away from separate RS PDFs so this has a direct impact on how products are designed

Colt Ward

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #287 on: 15 June 2021, 12:08:39 »
Data in the back would double the page count for record sheets. This has negative consequences for sheets that are included in print products. They’re moving away from separate RS PDFs so this has a direct impact on how products are designed

And I place RS in a slick, Clan mech on one side and IS mech on the other- both in the same weight class, or will when I get it all sorted properly.

Xan raised some interesting points, but I think most of your comments were still in the 'new- learning the game mechanics' stage rather than 'new- exploring the universe' that I feel the OP was raising.  I think the following was one of the best summations of my position from these discussions over the last year or two-

My general thoughts on this are that gameplay is the primary hook and must be the primary driver.  Even if attracted by the initial fluff hook (giant walking deathbots!), people generally come to play Battletech regularly, like any other game, because they like it as a game, not because they've read a pile of fluff and decided to stick around long-term solely on that basis despite a mediocre or outright disliked gameplay experience.

Fluff however is a very strong secondary driver.  Players, having been drawn into the game, grow to learn and like the fluff, and that drives further gameplay engagement moving forward.  Simply put, after the initial hurdle of just learning the game as a game, a mix of gameplay depth and fluff depth keep people playing.  Assuming the game is deep enough to reward repeat play, fictional depth inspires them to become emotionally invested in it.

So fluff should not be ignored: it should be considered as important, but secondary.  My ideal player aid would be thus something that functions in that light: a useful gameplay tool first and foremost, that happens to take into account faction/fluff elements in a way that works with the universe but doesn't make the gameplay (i.e. playing the game in general, using the specific product) onerous.  It can't be overly faction- or era-limited, like so many BT works are, because the idea is to serve as a one-stop overview that covers the majority of player cases, rather than yet another product that is some variation on "if you like playing the 17th Booshnak Rangers of the United Hindu Collective in the 14th Zartaran Campaign during the 86th Succession War, boy have we got the book for you!"

Primary consideration: I need to build a force (because I can't play without a force), knowing almost nothing about the universe (because I'm new).  Secondary consideration: in building the force, the result is something that is appropriate to the game universe and subtly eases me into it, providing an opportunity to be accurate and teaching me a bit about the fluff aspects along the way, but not demanding I do research to be accurate.

So specifically and ideally for myself, I would get a product that rapidly delivers me a faction- and era-appropriate lance or star or level II, but doesn't ask me to know a thing about the faction or era in question beyond some bits it itself provides as guidance (and they should only be bits, because you don't want to drown the newcomer or make the book onerous to navigate / use at the tabletop: this would primarily need to be a tabletop supplement).  No historical stuff.  No campaign stuff.  Just get playing.

BUT . . . I think going forward the CGL published BT products are going to have to deal with GoAC & KS mechs (and maps as pointed out) as the 'core' of the experience written around with MAYBE a line or two suggesting substitutions for replay (Next time try a Cronus 3M instead of that Griffin 1N).  The simple fact is the lance packs and other KS materials are going to be a easy source of minis for people wanting to play.  We have no idea how long it will be until they get into IWM's production que- especially since they seem to be also producing 'progression' mechs from RecGuides (which I want too, really looking for the Hammerhead!) so materials designed to move someone from GoAC/CI further into the game/universe should use what is easiest to access.  I will let someone else speak to maps, since my group uses a hex/terrain hybrid and otherwise I use MegaMek but I think it goes along with using the KS mechs.

Which is also why I advocated for smaller expansion boxes focusing on expanding the rules used from GoAC, get some faction flavor to support the game mechanics (sorry, yes this mean Davion will have Dakka), and I would say minis & a map.

About the internet presence . . . I have never viewed the video.  If that is all it is- a quiet pan of some GenCon table set up, then yeah that is bad . . . I think they would do much better to beg/borrow HBS's intro video if they could.  Or create something like that as close as possible using official art- FREX, I want to say the MW3, I KNOW MW4, and maybe MC2 upload screens did the brief run through of the BT timeline as your status bar showed the progress in getting the game on your HD.  The concerns of the website absolutely need to be addressed for the reasons mentioned back on page 2 I think- deadlinks and old production date/schedule gives the impression the game is dead/vaporware as said.  In fact, dead information needs to be addressed before any updated information is put up.  Unfortunately, it is a volunteer slot and I am not sure anyone has stepped up recently . . . and my web design/structure skills were just adequate when I played around with them nearly 20 years ago, so that is not my forte.  I think that has to be stressed as a priority otherwise a lot of the other steps they are making to get new players and make the game new player friendly are wasted.  Complain about it all you want, but the 15-30 year old age demographics have grown up with finding any and everything on the web.  Taking what was stated on earlier pages as true; a bad presence (broken links, production information 3-5 years out of date) is probably worse than no presence.
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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #288 on: 15 June 2021, 16:24:22 »
Don't tease those who haven't seen it yet: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PAGY4UMScyU

I'm as grognard as it gets, and that video STILL gives me chills.  8)

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #289 on: 15 June 2021, 16:27:09 »
Pardon for the late reply, but I'm catching up with this as I work at a job.

I'm also curious what opinion you have on map availability.  I've not been super thrilled with it myself.  I think BT could do with more maps bein in print, and might not be a bad idea to sell each scenario with at least one map and each map with a couple scenarios that use it.

This is just one example, but all this talk of maps makes me wish strongly for a build-a-map box or something.  The pre-defined maps are great, and all, and they've included some pop-out hexes to mod them with. 

However, those lose out after a while.  If reprinting maps is a problem, maybe we should look to some other options as a better example.

I've always wanted some thematically blank maps that I could then modify with pop-out hex counters or other means (like bottle cap rings).  And, by thematic, I mean nothing on it but the hexes and numbers and a color, like green grass or gray pavement or brown desert,  or white snow.

We used to have a program called Heavy Metal: Map.  Think my friend still has a copy.  Great for working up a map and printing it out.  But, that seems a bit much too far the other way.

The current selection of maps, or even working with an extended collection of older maps, has the terrain getting stale after a time. And, I've been one wanting to be able to just put down a blank canvas of sorts, throw some tiles on it like confetti, and see what comes of it.  Or, there have been times I've been wanting to make something very specific, and can't pull it off without having a blank map to start with. (Ever try to create a walled fort?)

I hope many of you who have the current maps see that they're stylistic reprints of older ones. 

It strikes me that some maps should be printed with certain details, for specific historical events.  But, for the larger number of new players, I think sets of hex-tiles would be much more appropriate, with some basic, blank canvases to work on. 

But, this is less about presentation and seeing yet another gap in products for new (and old) players.
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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #290 on: 15 June 2021, 16:35:31 »
They used to offer that with the map packs . . . the ones that sat on shelves.
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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #291 on: 15 June 2021, 16:46:04 »
Even back then, I think it was the price of cardboard that drove the price too high for a map pack.

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #292 on: 15 June 2021, 16:48:34 »
Off-hand, back when the old map packs were around, box sets weren't exactly around...
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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #293 on: 15 June 2021, 17:13:37 »
My group has a couple people who have large collections of HeroScape terrain that we've been using for the last couple months on our Friday nights.  They are hex based and just a little larger than the average base of a model from CGL or Ironwind.    Aside from not having effective means for representing water or forests, they work pretty well.

Week before last, the organizer even set some of them up to be dock lines, which coincided with paper ships that were the target of that week's scenario.  It worked out pretty well.

One week we even built up a very large hill to act as the target of the "king of the hill" scenario.
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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #294 on: 15 June 2021, 18:03:14 »
Even back then, I think it was the price of cardboard that drove the price too high for a map pack.

Those cardboard maps were not the best.  The never got flat, and lined up poorly with paper maps.  And if I am being honest, I have never liked the mapsheets (the format not the maps themselves).  They also never never a flat as you want and tend to get separated/moved so that all the mini's fall over.  The BattleMats on the other hand are amazing.

Part of me has always assumed that people eventually move away from the official mapsheets.  Stock always seams to be limited, unofficial maps are easier to get and print, while terrain seams more ubiquitous than in decades past.

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #295 on: 15 June 2021, 18:27:48 »
Until the new map packs, paper maps were exceedingly rare after around 2008 when the fanpro compilations became prohibitively expensive on the secondary market. So anyone getting started in the past decade probably had no access to them. And many people who used to have them either lost or got rid of them for various reasons

Personally I have every set published so I’ll be damned if they go to waste… though admittedly the battlemats are going to be my goto for hosting games, especially when going to a store space

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #296 on: 15 June 2021, 18:31:11 »
Data in the back would double the page count for record sheets. This has negative consequences for sheets that are included in print products. They’re moving away from separate RS PDFs so this has a direct impact on how products are designed

Do they even do record sheets in print anymore?  I thought they were just PDF products now.

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #297 on: 15 June 2021, 18:34:12 »
They’re appearing in the products themselves now. So TRO Irregulars has a large number, which has an effect on the PoD version. If the RecGuide compilation has them, it will be the same

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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #298 on: 15 June 2021, 18:36:16 »
Did TRO Clan Invasion and TRO Jihad get RS compilations yet? TRO Succession Wars did.
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Re: Frustration with how CGL presents their game, as a new player
« Reply #299 on: 15 June 2021, 18:37:20 »
Clan invasion yes, jihad not yet

 

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