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Author Topic: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?  (Read 2890 times)

glitterboy2098

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #30 on: 16 January 2022, 21:11:43 »
the technology had been in production for over a decade and there were a slew of new designs using it being produced for at least 4 of those years. plus field refit efforts even before the clans arrived. there would be a lot of upgraded units.

they just weren't in the right spots to face the clans and they didn't get into the fray until late 3050 and early 3051, and didn't start becoming common on that front until right at the end.

Sartris

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #31 on: 16 January 2022, 21:20:49 »
show me the textual evidence of mass deployment (25% is a lot). everything i've cited, seen, and worked on indicates that there wasn't much except at the top before the clans showed up. it skyrocketed after that, but nothing indicates that the houses were pumping out enough to make a serious dent before that.
« Last Edit: 16 January 2022, 21:27:16 by Sartris »

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Charistoph

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #32 on: 16 January 2022, 21:27:43 »
the technology had been in production for over a decade and there were a slew of new designs using it being produced for at least 4 of those years. plus field refit efforts even before the clans arrived. there would be a lot of upgraded units.

they just weren't in the right spots to face the clans and they didn't get into the fray until late 3050 and early 3051, and didn't start becoming common on that front until right at the end.

It wouldn't take much to consider that a lot of those upgrades were not to spec, so they wouldn't necessarily be variants one will see on the MUL, but old personal machines that were upgraded as equipment and opportunities became available.

Still, it would seem a little... odd that the big wigs like Victor, Hohiro, and Kai would be out of the loop on these types of technology being available, if not riding such upgraded units themselves.  Yet, that's how the Blood of Kerensky starts, with everyone in "Introtech" machines.
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Sartris

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #33 on: 16 January 2022, 21:30:56 »
There almost certainly were a fair number of field upgrades - in A rated units and some well-connected B-rated outfits. But not one in five of the entire house military.

I would note that Sword and Dragon takes place in 3049 featuring two prestige units. And they’re only getting dribs and drabs of prototype (not production) advanced gear

Maybe if they revisit 3039 they will revise some of that (I certainly would push for it). But I’ve yet to be presented with anything but approximation and headcanon rather than anything in the extant text
« Last Edit: 16 January 2022, 21:33:11 by Sartris »

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bobthecoward

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #34 on: 16 January 2022, 21:32:24 »
show me the textual evidence of mass deployment (25% is a lot). everything i've cited, seen, and worked on indicates that there wasn't much except at the top before the clans showed up. it skyrocketed after that, but nothing indicates that the houses were pumping out enough to make a serious dent before that.

Well, the Era Report 3052 Ray mentioned above (year 2010) gives an 11+ roll for 3049 AFFS, and 10+ 3050 for nearly every option on a 2D6 table....no consideration for unit rating.

Sartris

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #35 on: 16 January 2022, 21:37:40 »
11+ is 5.6%, which feels right. 10+ is about 16.7%. That’s after the clans arrive and those FWL upgrade kits are starting to show up. Those feel a lot closer

But well under 10% seems right for the 3040s

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bobthecoward

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #36 on: 16 January 2022, 21:41:26 »
11+ is 5.6%, which feels right. 10+ is about 16.7%. That’s after the clans arrive and those FWL upgrade kits are starting to show up. Those feel a lot closer

But well under 10% seems right for the 3040s

And it goes a bit lower if you then factor in a small number of slots do not have an upgrade option and you then extrapolated as if the probability what applied to a very large force ..
..which is what a crazy person would do...and my plans for tonight.


Also, 11+ is 8.3%

bobthecoward

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #37 on: 16 January 2022, 22:44:03 »
And it goes a bit lower if you then factor in a small number of slots do not have an upgrade option and you then extrapolated as if the probability what applied to a very large force ..
..which is what a crazy person would do...and my plans for tonight.


Also, 11+ is 8.3%

ERA report 3052 may be aggressive....

fedcom
3048 6.5%
3049 13.1%
3050 21.8%

DCMS
3048 13.9%
3049 22.9%
3050 48.7%

Charistoph

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #38 on: 16 January 2022, 22:55:38 »
ERA report 3052 may be aggressive....

fedcom
3048 6.5%
3049 13.1%
3050 21.8%

DCMS
3048 13.9%
3049 22.9%
3050 48.7%

One should also keep the perspective that the FedCom also had a much much larger military, having combined two Houses worth.  For example,  14% of 500 isn't that much more than 7% of 1000.
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Sartris

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #39 on: 16 January 2022, 23:07:04 »
ERA report 3052 may be aggressive....

fedcom
3048 6.5%
3049 13.1%
3050 21.8%

DCMS
3048 13.9%
3049 22.9%
3050 48.7%

Setting everything at 12+ wouldn’t make the rules very useful or playable, after all

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RifleMech

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #40 on: 16 January 2022, 23:57:49 »
I was looking at the table in Historical War of 3039. DHS can hit 9 per lance. Most other items were 1 or 2 per lance. Presuming they're all on the same mech, that's 25% of a Houses Frontline Mechs. That number might be reduced some do to unit's equipment ratings. Of those listed though, most were A and B rated, with a few Cs. I didn't see anything lower than a C. Although I do need new glasses. I also don't know if that's all of a House's Mech units though. I didn't read that close. I don't think that includes every merc unit or militia units though. Still it's a lot of units though, which means a lot of mechs were upgraded with Prototype Tech. I'm sure there's a lot of one off variants but I would think with numbers involved, that there would be a lot of upgrade kits, if not new production. Those variants would of course influence the next generation of variants, using production quality tech, that'd be coming out of the factory 10 years later.

Also the above is just using Prototype SLDF Tech and TSM. It doesn't include items like EW Equipment and Blazer Cannons. That's going to bump up the number of mechs using experimental tech in the 30's and 40's. Also not included is the number of SLDF mechs that House Kurita obtained from Comstar. It'd be a small percentage but it was enough to help them reverse engineer tech. So I'm still okay with 20% or so of a House Mech's being upgraded in some form by 3050.

And like glitterboy2098 said, most of those mechs would be in prestigious units on the frontlines. With national security, no House is going to admit to having advanced tech right away, so those outside those units aren't going to know about them or are just aren't talking. Since no one is talking, I can see how Victor and Kai and others didn't know about them. They may be royalty but they were also on their first deployment. There was no need for them to know about military secrets right then. The Houses would also want to concentrate these mechs. So I can see how not ever premier unit would have access to the advanced tech. Add in where the Clans attacked from and its easy to see to see the tech gap between the IS and Clan units.

The thing is IO changes a lot of things so they're now Common by 3040. That means the the prototype and production items were used during the War of 3039. I'd be okay with that later part. Some units just hadn't been upgraded before the war started. No problem. It's the first part, items being listed as common that causes a problem. I'm okay with items being more available and there being more upgraded mechs by 3050 than there were previously. If it didn't throw previous fiction out of whack.

Sartris

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #41 on: 17 January 2022, 00:05:10 »
how is that playing out in canon sources and not just your assumptions?

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RifleMech

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #42 on: 17 January 2022, 03:16:11 »
It depends on the canon source. Some have SLDF equipment as still being pretty much still lostech with the Houses only just starting to use them. Other list them as being common a decade or more before the Clans invade.

A couple examples mentioned earlier.
TRO:3050's fluff for the Wolf Trap calls it a prototype that isn't do to enter production for another six months. If it tests well. It's LB-10X Autocannon was still a promising but untested official secret. TRO:3050U puts the Wolf Trap entering production in 3051. Interstellar Ops has the LB-10X being common in 3040. How can something commonly available for a decade be a state secret?

Sword and Dragon
The Foxes Teeth didn't receive standard SLDF tech until 3050, after the Clans invaded. A Premier unit still using prototype tech a decade after production items were common. You'd think they'd of been upgraded to production quality before the War of 3039. Not more than a decade later in the middle of another war.

Sorenson's Sabres didn't test prototype SLDF lasers until 3048. More than a decade after the DS started producing production quality versions. Why test the prototypes after production versions are on the market?

In novels, none of the IS characters had any experience with SLDF technology. (That I can remember) IO has them commonly available. If they were common before the War of 3039, wouldn't they have been included in their history books?

Historical:War of 3039 has tables limiting prototype equipment items to at least 25% of a unit's mechs. Later books have SLDF tech being common before the War of 3039, so anyone who wanted to upgrade could. That would mean even more mechs with tech more advanced than introtech in 3050. And again, all this is just SLDF prototype and production technology. It doesn't include any of the other tech that's available.

I don't know how many mechs there are, or how many have what kind of tech. All I do know is that the information we have is conflicting. So, I'll go with my original answer. How common do you want them to be?



Sartris

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #43 on: 17 January 2022, 10:14:48 »
I see you fail to mention the most current source, the combat manual availability lists, which have almost none. 3039's upgrades are almost exclusively confined to A rated units with B-rated getting a bit of a boost (as I've contented where virtually all the upgrading would occur the entire thread). That's not 25% of the entire military. It's 25% of <25%. 3052 gives you a bit more reach 1) because it doesn't give you a full list of regiments with their ratings and 2) it has to be playable. IO's tables are basically a prop piece because exactly zero has been done with them, nullifying their usefulness as a source demonstrating anything. Any use of those dates after they were printed is almost entirely speculation at this point, which the kids like to call headcanon.

So it's not ambiguous or conflicting. Until after 3050, HelmTech is pretty darn rare.

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jasonf

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #44 on: 17 January 2022, 22:13:27 »
I'm fairly certain Sartris is spot on here, and you can infer it a few ways from the lore.

First, the basic smell test for the War of 3039... If the FedCom was able to refit 20-25% of its units with LosTech, prototype or otherwise, giving up the Rasalhague Military District for partial upgrades of 7 Genyosha/Ryuken regiments and 12 Ghost regiments was kind of a raw deal for the Combine. Plus, only the DCMS A* RATs in the Historical: War of 3039 have LosTech, and even then, the force creation rules suggest these only make up 30% of each outfitted A* force (one per lance with a 1/6 chance of 2 per lance). None of the other RATs have LosTech variants/models listed.

Second, Interstellar Ops (pp. 102-05) actually has detailed descriptions of just how much of the prototype LosTech was around. Most of the prototypes are worked on and distributed to the most elite of elite units between 3030 and 3040. The (non-prototype) components generally enter production between 3037 and 3040, and we know from the MUL that the first LosTech upgrades (refit kit or new 'Mech) don't start coming online until 3042 or so, with the bulk showing up between 3048 and 3051.

With that late of a start, it is hard to get more then a few hundred upgraded 'Mechs per successor state by 3050, let alone earlier. The Fed Suns, Lyrans, and Combine each have about 75 to 95 frontline regiments at that time, which comes out to about 8000 to 11,500 'Mechs to upgrade (per state). Even if the major states were able to upgrade 300 Mechs/year for 3048-50 (which might be a stretch), it'd  come out to about 8%-11% of frontline units upgraded by the end of 3050. If about a quarter of the 'Mechs in the most favored/elite fifth of forces were upgraded at this time, it would give the remaining regiments a 3%-6% upgrade rate.

Finally, we can work backwards from the deployment tables, equipment ratings, and force description fluff from the Field Manuals. Working backwards from FM:Updates back to the earlier (3059) volumes, we can figure out that any regiment with an "A" or "B" rating (on the A/B/C/D/F scale) is pretty much fully upgraded with mostly new units and even some Clan Tech by 3067. Most of the "A" units are fully upgraded by 3062. We only have the fluff & ratings to go by for the 3059 period, but it suggests that the "A" units are upgraded in the 60%-90% range at this time, while the "B/C" units are about 20%-70% upgraded. There are still quite a few units that have 0% upgrades reported at this time (mostly March Militias and similar low-priority units).

Putting it all together, it suggests an "S-curve" of upgraded tech adoption between the late 3040s and the end of the Civil War era, with very low rates of adoption through 3052, a strong pick up between then and 3062 or so, with close to saturation for the best units and the laggards gradually catching up between then and 3067.
 

RifleMech

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #45 on: 18 January 2022, 09:49:56 »
I see you fail to mention the most current source, the combat manual availability lists, which have almost none. 3039's upgrades are almost exclusively confined to A rated units with B-rated getting a bit of a boost (as I've contented where virtually all the upgrading would occur the entire thread). That's not 25% of the entire military. It's 25% of <25%. 3052 gives you a bit more reach 1) because it doesn't give you a full list of regiments with their ratings and 2) it has to be playable. IO's tables are basically a prop piece because exactly zero has been done with them, nullifying their usefulness as a source demonstrating anything. Any use of those dates after they were printed is almost entirely speculation at this point, which the kids like to call headcanon.

So it's not ambiguous or conflicting. Until after 3050, HelmTech is pretty darn rare.


I said it depends on the source and it does. You also say that IO's tables are a prop piece. Interstellar Operations is a Core Rule Book. I think that's more than a prop piece. You also say we should go by the lists but those lists are not exhaustive. They're a sampling. Where's the SLDF era Mechs? We know Kurita had some. Where are the Mechs on that mount prototype SLDF technology? I don't see any of the Sorenson's Sabre's mechs listed. Should I go with an incomplete list, or a Core Rule Book?

I also didn't say entire military. I said I didn't think it included militia units or merc units. I also wasn't including Comstar or the Clans. I'd also doubt pirate units were upgraded. That leaves a lot of mechs.

Furthermore, the fact remains that A, B and even C rated units fielded upgraded Mechs. How much of an upgrade varied but Mechs were upgraded. Even Mercenary units received upgrades. At a max rate of 1-2 per lance, that is a sizable portion of mechs. Do I think 50% of all House Mechs were upgraded? No, but that doesn't mean they weren't or couldn't be.

As for playability, are you saying, it isn't possible to play with those tables? I find that hard to believe. I will grant that our list of canon designs is very very limited. I will also grant that customizing designs, without completely outclassing the few canon designs we do have would be a challenge. After all, how many of us wondered about some of the mechs in TRO:3050?  I don't that that makes playing impossible though.




I'm fairly certain Sartris is spot on here, and you can infer it a few ways from the lore.

First, the basic smell test for the War of 3039... If the FedCom was able to refit 20-25% of its units with LosTech, prototype or otherwise, giving up the Rasalhague Military District for partial upgrades of 7 Genyosha/Ryuken regiments and 12 Ghost regiments was kind of a raw deal for the Combine. Plus, only the DCMS A* RATs in the Historical: War of 3039 have LosTech, and even then, the force creation rules suggest these only make up 30% of each outfitted A* force (one per lance with a 1/6 chance of 2 per lance). None of the other RATs have LosTech variants/models listed.

There's a lot more units that were upgraded in the DCMS than just the Genyosha/Ryuken and the Ghost Regiments.  The rest just have to make do with prototypes. I also wouldn't go by the RATs. They're not complete lists. We also have very very few canon designs using prototype tech. As for raw deals, Kurita got a big buffer zone, and got rid of trouble makers at the same time. They also received regiments worth of mechs. Some with Lostech. Those three things allowed Kurita to survive the War of 3039. I think they're happy about their trade. Also, the FedComs had at least 8 years to upgrade their forces before launching the War of 3039. That's plenty of time to upgrade a lot of their forces.
 


Quote
Second, Interstellar Ops (pp. 102-05) actually has detailed descriptions of just how much of the prototype LosTech was around. Most of the prototypes are worked on and distributed to the most elite of elite units between 3030 and 3040. The (non-prototype) components generally enter production between 3037 and 3040, and we know from the MUL that the first LosTech upgrades (refit kit or new 'Mech) don't start coming online until 3042 or so, with the bulk showing up between 3048 and 3051.

You've just pointed out some of the conflicts and the problems with using lists. The Universal Advancement Table, starting on page 35 lists when items become commonly available. Medium Pulse Lasers became commonly available in 3042. Before then they were available to the DCMS in 3037. In fact the Sorenson's Sabres didn't even test the prototypes until 3048, and the DCMS had them in 3031.  Why would the DCMS wait so many years before using them? Especially, when there was a war going on?  :-\

As for the MUL, where's all the Mechs with prototype tech?  We only have a handful. There should be a lot of variants with prototype tech. Not just one off customs but refit kits and even new production. There should also be variants with recovered tech introduced sooner than the MUL lists.


Quote
With that late of a start, it is hard to get more then a few hundred upgraded 'Mechs per successor state by 3050, let alone earlier. The Fed Suns, Lyrans, and Combine each have about 75 to 95 frontline regiments at that time, which comes out to about 8000 to 11,500 'Mechs to upgrade (per state). Even if the major states were able to upgrade 300 Mechs/year for 3048-50 (which might be a stretch), it'd  come out to about 8%-11% of frontline units upgraded by the end of 3050. If about a quarter of the 'Mechs in the most favored/elite fifth of forces were upgraded at this time, it would give the remaining regiments a 3%-6% upgrade rate.

What late start? They had years before the Wo39 to upgrade with most prototype tech, and even some production tech.

According to the 20 Year Update sourcebook the Federated Commonwealth alone had a Mech Strength of 268 Regiments, 1 Battalion. With 1 per lance that's between 7,245 and 14,214 being upgraded. Depending on command lances and companies and 3-5 battalions per regiment. That is a lot of mechs but if the Capellan Confederation can recover so well after all their losses in the Succession Wars, the other Houses should find it easy to upgrade their mechs.


Quote
Finally, we can work backwards from the deployment tables, equipment ratings, and force description fluff from the Field Manuals. Working backwards from FM:Updates back to the earlier (3059) volumes, we can figure out that any regiment with an "A" or "B" rating (on the A/B/C/D/F scale) is pretty much fully upgraded with mostly new units and even some Clan Tech by 3067. Most of the "A" units are fully upgraded by 3062. We only have the fluff & ratings to go by for the 3059 period, but it suggests that the "A" units are upgraded in the 60%-90% range at this time, while the "B/C" units are about 20%-70% upgraded. There are still quite a few units that have 0% upgrades reported at this time (mostly March Militias and similar low-priority units).

Putting it all together, it suggests an "S-curve" of upgraded tech adoption between the late 3040s and the end of the Civil War era, with very low rates of adoption through 3052, a strong pick up between then and 3062 or so, with close to saturation for the best units and the laggards gradually catching up between then and 3067.

Upgraded from what? Introtech to SLDF or SLDF to new IS tech of the 50s-60s?

I don't see why there would be so little upgrading. Not with so many wars going on. Look at how many mechs the CCAF upgraded with TSM before the 4th Succession War ended? All the Blackjacks with DHSs. And that was 10 years before the War of 3039. Why would the Houses not be upgrading their forces with new tech during that time?


Sartris

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #46 on: 18 January 2022, 10:23:32 »
You have yet to demonstrate evidence of a significant portion of mechs have been upgraded. Assuming that they have based on a few dates when they might be isn't evidence. Everything we've got that gives any clear indication (eg the actual availability tables for the DCMS in CM: Kurita) says no. You've demostrated upgrades occurred. that was not in dispute. But 25% or more of a miliary is too much.

these magical hordes of prototypes you seem to be holding out on don't exist. if they ever do exist, it will be like all the other prototypes we've seen - in very limited numbers of one to a dozen. that doesn't fill your cup.
« Last Edit: 18 January 2022, 10:32:31 by Sartris »

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CVB

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #47 on: 18 January 2022, 10:33:14 »
The Universal Advancement Table, starting on page 35 lists when items become commonly available.

I would argue that "common" with regards to the UAT means "no longer limited to the originating faction", not "very numerous". I mean the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle is listed as "common" by 3090, but how many are really produced every year?
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jasonf

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #48 on: 18 January 2022, 10:57:34 »
these magical hordes of prototypes you seem to be holding out on don't exist. if they ever do exist, it will be like all the other prototypes we've seen - in very limited numbers of one to a dozen. that doesn't fill your cup.

There's also the issue that mass-produced/distributed prototypes kind of contradicts the definition of a "prototype." Interstellar Ops is pretty clear that what was produced for distribution were the actual LosTech/SLDF versions of these components, not the prototypes.

I mean, why invest in new production before the weapons/components you were producing matched the performance of what was listed in the Helm memory core? It was literally an instruction booklet for LosTech R&D...


ThePW

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Re: As much as your GM elects to allow...
« Reply #49 on: 18 January 2022, 12:55:40 »
Prediction: This thread won't reach 3 pages before it gets locked.

This is what I've learned from just two pages of 'discussion'

1) The concept of prototyping gear is just that, small portions of equipment, literally less than a hundred units built +/-, or end units (example, a Panther built with prototype endo steel) manufactured to specs before being sent to storage or the scrapyard* when proven units reach production.

2) The numbers of production, the odds, the ends, are the GM's headache, Not Catalyst's (which is why they don't Fasanomics anymore). If you want to go nuts and write the back story of all the different company's on a world that help build an LB-X-10 autocannon, please do so (because its hella easier if someone did that than waving their hand just saying that on 3048, you can buy all the LB-X-10s you want, go nuts).

3) Roll the dice and use what ever table that someone else took the time/effort to make.
Its YOUR game.

* an evil GM would replace an item you ordered with a prototype (with all the pitfalls that result from such use, such as negative quirks, etc...)



Sartris

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #50 on: 18 January 2022, 13:26:44 »
OP was talking about the state of the universe, not GM fiat. He’s picky so I’m trying to attempt to rise to his standard of veracity. No need to wander in and comment that the level of discourse isn’t up to your Very High standards.

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Part of the fanbase: I have very fringe interests
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bobthecoward

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #51 on: 18 January 2022, 13:29:43 »
OP was talking about the state of the universe, not GM fiat. He’s picky so I’m trying to attempt to rise to his standard of veracity. No need to wander in and comment that the level of discourse isn’t up to your Very High standards.

Picky ?!?!?!

Just kidding.Yea, I'm a force composition fetishist.

jasonf

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #52 on: 18 January 2022, 16:32:39 »
Just kidding.Yea, I'm a force composition fetishist.

I totally endorse this approach, btw...  :thumbsup:

RifleMech

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #53 on: 18 January 2022, 17:20:31 »
You have yet to demonstrate evidence of a significant portion of mechs have been upgraded. Assuming that they have based on a few dates when they might be isn't evidence. Everything we've got that gives any clear indication (eg the actual availability tables for the DCMS in CM: Kurita) says no. You've demostrated upgrades occurred. that was not in dispute. But 25% or more of a miliary is too much.

these magical hordes of prototypes you seem to be holding out on don't exist. if they ever do exist, it will be like all the other prototypes we've seen - in very limited numbers of one to a dozen. that doesn't fill your cup.



Availability tables are false readings. They don't include every mech available to that organization. They only include a sampling. Again, they don't list any of the mechs with upgraded prototype tech. For example the Blackjack-3X isn't listed in the 3052 RATs. It served in the 4th Succession War. So did the Locust-1L. It isn't listed either.
Since they're incomplete and pretty much skip prototype eras, we can't use them for a basis of how much was upgraded.

And again, up to 2 mechs of every lance in A and B rated units were upgraded. Even if it's just 1, that's a sizable number and there were tech C rated units receiving upgrades. These were mechs that sources say that were upgraded and fought during the War of 3039. Up to 2 Mechs per Lance is not an insignificant number.

I can understand TPTB not giving us numbers. It's a headache. I can also understand not giving us every prototype. Look at the retcon mess of the Blackjack-3X and 3. The BJ-3X was retconned in because DHS weren't available and then it's introdate was retconned because it was too late for the 4th Succession War.

Look at the 3050 Panther 10K and Scorpion 1O. ERPPCs with 10 single heat sinks? Kurita was producing ERPPCs in 3037. You'd think they'd of figured out during the War of 3039 that wasn't a good idea. They did have access to DHS-Ps though. A max of 7 per lance in A rated units. A max of 3 per lance could also use ES-P. So there could easily be Panthers using those items during the Wo39. TPTB can't fix it though without having the same problem as with the Blackjack-3. Because the Panther with prototypes would be too good. That doesn't mean I don't think that there shouldn't be more canon mechs, and vehicles, using prototype tech. It just means that TPTB, and even GMs, need to be careful about making them.
(Personally, I think using DSHS and giving us an in game penalty for use would have avoided some problems.)
 


I would argue that "common" with regards to the UAT means "no longer limited to the originating faction", not "very numerous". I mean the Silver Bullet Gauss Rifle is listed as "common" by 3090, but how many are really produced every year?

IO page 33
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Common: Common items are those which have reached such a broad level of production or access across various factions that they have effectively ceased to be proprietary and now can reasonably appear among all factions of a given technology base.

You do ask a good question though. How much is produced? How much is limited production? Mass production?








RifleMech

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Re: As much as your GM elects to allow...
« Reply #54 on: 18 January 2022, 17:47:24 »
Prediction: This thread won't reach 3 pages before it gets locked.

This is what I've learned from just two pages of 'discussion'

1) The concept of prototyping gear is just that, small portions of equipment, literally less than a hundred units built +/-, or end units (example, a Panther built with prototype endo steel) manufactured to specs before being sent to storage or the scrapyard* when proven units reach production.

2) The numbers of production, the odds, the ends, are the GM's headache, Not Catalyst's (which is why they don't Fasanomics anymore). If you want to go nuts and write the back story of all the different company's on a world that help build an LB-X-10 autocannon, please do so (because its hella easier if someone did that than waving their hand just saying that on 3048, you can buy all the LB-X-10s you want, go nuts).

3) Roll the dice and use what ever table that someone else took the time/effort to make.
Its YOUR game.

* an evil GM would replace an item you ordered with a prototype (with all the pitfalls that result from such use, such as negative quirks, etc...)

There's a difference between prototyping something to see if it works, and prototyping something for operational testing. I'm choosing to go with the date for Prototyped being generally when items became available for operational testing. That's where you'd get 100 Panthers with ES-P. However, you wouldn't want to test items on just one mech. You'd want to test it on several since mechs have different functions which means different operating conditions.

And I have given units that are upgrading prototypes. I've also sent salvaged items with all the problems they have.  >:D

Picky ?!?!?!

Just kidding.Yea, I'm a force composition fetishist.


That's cool.  :thumbsup:  I still believe the answer to how many standard mechs with SLDF Tech is up to you. If you want your mid 3040's force to be an A* Rated unit with all SLDF Tech, that's entirely up to you. There isn't anything illegal about that. They're just a very prestigious unit that gets all the best tech first.  :)

Col Toda

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #55 on: 27 January 2022, 02:47:54 »
The mechs themselves you should see them within 6 months of the first year of production to units like the Sword of Light units and Genosha Veteran to Elite units with Fanatical to reliable loyalty only . The second year you should start to see them in less elite units with reliable or fanatcal loyalty . You also start to see repaired salvaged units in other hands . By tge third year between factory field kits and production all the elite units have been replaced with new construction and 50 to 75 percent in the less prestigious units should be upgraded . Sadly due to various bottle necks things tend not to get better f
Until  at least 3055-3058 .

My personal issue was After Market Double Heat sinks . A lot of 3050 mechs were given upgraded weapons but still had single heat sinks . That did not get fixed completely for years . When mercenary get ahold of standard tech depended on the relationship of a corporation or government.  Sometimes they would field test the prototypes for a government for a more honest appraisal of the hardware . Watch Pentagon Wars movie to see a military man attempt to do that honestly destroyed his career.  Between outright corruption to face saving government Mandarines alot of time you have to outsource evaluation of units . As the first year production goes to elite unit a lance might be bought by mercenaries that are off to a different theater and terrain that the elite units aren't.  That way the units are field tested by expendable mercenaries before an offensive takes the national troops there to get blindsided with an unforseen issue.

guardiandashi

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #56 on: 27 January 2022, 05:56:59 »
one thing I will note that even the older "revised?" printings of TRO 3050 had notes that it really should have been been retitled TRO3052 not TRO3050.

a lot of the stuff in it didn't really come online in "reasonable" quantities until then.

another thing you run into is the actual production rates in the 3040's to 3050's

a unit of note the Marauder II is produced by 1 company at 1 facility at a rate of ~12/year even if the new model went into full production in 3040 (which in my opinion is unrealistically generous) by 3050 there would still be only 120 of the new model as new built units, there could be some more as refits to the new spec from the earlier production models, in addition this is assuming none of the new spec mechs were lost.

you run into the same issue pretty much across the board IE when you have thousands of units in use, just how far do a handful (literally) of nes spec units go?  I am going to say its kind of like "stiffening" a bucket of spit with a handful of sand/gravel and saying the bucket is a 5gallon bucket.  the reality is even those ~5-10% numbers are likely EXTREMELY generous.

my personal headcannon/guess is that as far as overall numbers you are really looking at closer to 5/10 percent at single digit percentages of the total inventory.  IE the A/B list units are ~5-10% of the overall units and they have ~5-10% upgrade rates in ~3050 which being somewhat generous means if they are 10% of the overall units in use and were at 10% upgraded status its still only ~1% of the overall numbers being really upgraded.  with ya the numbers going up every year due to a combination of new production and just how many units were lost due to the clan invasion (and other reasons)

Col Toda

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Re: How common were standard tech mechs in the Renaissance?
« Reply #57 on: 05 February 2022, 08:38:04 »
The tech and ERA we are talking about a minority of upgraded units are actually new construction . By far most Standard Tech units are produced in the field using kits produced in a factory and completed as a D refit in the field over a couple manintenance cycles .

If you had to depend on strictly new construction the most standard tech that could be fielded is between 1200-3600 tons for mechs and ten times that for combat vehicles because of the looser construction tolerances such vehicles have over mechs.

As Inner Sphere major powers like the Draconis Combine field in excess of 60 regiments it would take insane amounts of time to replace all the A-D units with new construction . As I mentioned before outside the A and B units the process never truly gets competed as yet newer units come out and older rquipment is sent to upgrade the C and D units .
« Last Edit: 05 February 2022, 08:50:14 by Col Toda »

 

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