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Author Topic: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?  (Read 2058 times)

Alexander Knight

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #30 on: 11 April 2021, 20:13:42 »
19 Regiments in the DCMS use the A* table in Historical: 3039.  From that, we can assume that roughly 618 advanced technology 'mechs were transferred, plus whatever standard-tech 'mechs were given over.

Middcore

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #31 on: 11 April 2021, 20:15:27 »
I mean, in the end we're quibbling over a difference of... what, 10-20 regiments at the absolute most? They got them from the same place the Word of Blake got waaaaaaay more.  ::)

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #32 on: 11 April 2021, 21:21:39 »
what’s 2100 mechs between friends?

SCC

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #33 on: 12 April 2021, 01:10:49 »
A significant portion of the novel Heir to the Dragon covers this.

Theodore Kurita gets appointed Gunji no Kanrei and approaches rebuilding the military with reformist zeal (and a finger up to his father and the establishment).

IIRC, there are a number of things he does to help:
  • He stops the institutional sexism, classism (and racism?) of the academies.
  • He gets people to go and find the various folk who were washed out of those academies and tempts them back in
  • He personally goes to the yakuza to say "You may be criminals, but you're Combine criminals - send us your best footsoldiers and money and we'll put them into mechs to fight the fedrats (and semi-legitimise you).
  • He gets a bunch of equipment from Comstar
  • This is speculation, but I think he gets corporations to provide assets as well.
  • Also speculation, but I also think he gets IndustrialMech pilots recruited

Most of the new regiments are in the Genyosha, Ryuken and Ghost Brigades (19 in total), but they also pick up 2 regiments of Capellan ex-pats and a couple of regiments in each of the "Regulars" brigades.  It's hard to say how much strength there is in each regiment, siince that wasn't really recorded back in the day.

Many of those things reforms are the things the Black Dragon Society are railing against
Just a couple of notes:
1. Stopping the academies from discriminating does not increase the number of MW graduating from them, the two are unrealted.
2. I'd forgotten about this, but canonically he doesn't just get MW from the Yak, but also all their 'Mechs. Yeah I'm not sure if I believe this too.

Got bored and had a spreadsheet, so I arranged the above data into a single table.  Any units that were not listed in one chart were added with a value of 0 for the number of regiments they had.
-snip-
Your table shows 11 house units stricken from records over this time period, but we know that 16 more where destroyed or render combat ineffective due to fighting the Dragoons:
At Misery: Ryuken-ni, Ryuken-san, Ryuken-go, Ryuken-yon, Eighth Sword of Light, Seventeenth Galedon Regulars, and Twenty-First Galedon Regulars;
At Harrow's Sun, 8th Galedon Regulars;
At Wapakoneta, 3rd Proserpina Hussars, and 20th Galedon Regulars;
At Glenmora, 5th Galedon Regulars, and 16th Galedon Regulars;
And at Crossing, 5th Galedon Regulars, 8th Galedon Regulars, 12th Galedon Regulars, and 16th Galedon Regulars.

And during the Ronin war these 14 regiment rebelled against the dragon: 1st Altenmarkt Militia, 5th Amphigean Light Assault Group, 2nd Night Stalkers: Johiro's Regiment, 1st Proserpina Hussars, 5th Rasalhague Regulars, 8th Rasalhague Regulars, 9th Rasalhague Regulars, 13th Rasalhague Regulars, 17th Rasalhague Regulars, 20th Rasalhague Regulars, 22nd Rasalhague Regulars, 25th Rasalhague Regulars, 1st Sun Zhang Academy Cadre, and 12th Sun Zhang Academy Cadre, which makes things complicated because their already on your list, but in many cases this is probably the second time the unit was destroyed in a decade.
IO, p. 350, table on “Sample Starting Forces”, shows 68 “Combat Commands” and and 15 “Mercenary Combat Commands” for the Combine.  If a command is a mech regiment, then that’s 83 regiments, not 68 or 66, which is more consistent with the HKSB total of 78 regiments that I counted or AK’s total of 80 regiments.
IO is NOT a canon source in this matter, the numbers provided should be used as a guide and nothing more
Assuming that the Ghost regiments and ComStar evenly split your 11-regiment estimate, you’re off by more than a factor of two on the Ghost regiments alone:  5.5 regiment estimate vice the 12 regiments in the 20-Year Update.
C* didn't provide that many 'Mechs, like 1 or 2.
It’s a bad assumption that all 18 were destroyed.  Regiments retreat.  Regiments surrender.  For example, six out of 14 Ronin regiments survived in Brush Wars, and those were units marked for extermination by Teddy and hunted down by three different militaries.
True, but for the 13 regiments on the border when the war began after they would have been hit again after they'd retreated before they had a chance or regroup or resupply, unless they retreated out of the theater of war.
I appreciate the vote of confidence, but I definitely make mistakes.  For that information, I don't remember how I arrived at that precise number, but I definitely recall the confusion and difficulty surrounding how I arrived at it, as the canon sources were so sketchy.  I wouldn't be surprised if I goofed somewhere, though that might simply have been a matter of better sources coming out since I first started working on it.  I began work on my tables back in 2007 and got to the War of 3039 in 2008, and all sorts of material has come out since then.
You probably still have better information then just the original Housebooks but, which as far as I know is all the rest of us have to go on. (probably a sign that the era does need some attention)

I agree with the idea that especially as you start adding in the "dispossessed" the criminals, and the sorry you aren't good enough because... finding the mechwarriors to staff several regiments is not impossible.

remember the Theodor brought in a lot of people that his father Tahaski (sp) wouldn't allow to serve as mechwarriors as they weren't "Honorable" enough.

To use an example, more akin to modern equivalents:  unless you graduate with an A or better Average, or your family pays cash (plus donations) they "can't find" a mechwarrior duty station for you to serve in.
so everyone that got an A- to a D grade effectively washed out. and ended up being assigned to Vehicle units, infantry units, or no position at all. but saddled with a lot of debt and no real way to pay it off.  Additionally being a Female, was an automatic drop of a  full letter grade more or less.

Theodor pulled in a lot of these "washouts" and used them to fill up the holes in the TO&E in understrength units, and create entirely new units. some of which were only "operational" at full strength on paper  Some of these units were supplied with units that were the cast offs and Technologically unsound mechs that would normally be scrapped, and or stripped for parts, by higher priority units.
To use an example the 1st sword of light regiment has 15 panthers 5 of which have broken weapons either ppc's or srm packs they gor 15 of the new erppc panthers, and rather than repairing or refitting the old panthers, they were instaid sent to one of the "genosha" Regiments of course said regiment did NOT get the spares through the standard supply chain to repair them
It's not a question of man power, it's a question of actual 'Mechs.
19 Regiments in the DCMS use the A* table in Historical: 3039.  From that, we can assume that roughly 618 advanced technology 'mechs were transferred, plus whatever standard-tech 'mechs were given over.
I'm pretty sure most of the 'Mechs in these units that have advanced tech got them from new factory's, not C*.

Alexander Knight

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #34 on: 12 April 2021, 01:15:43 »
It's not a question of man power, it's a question of actual 'Mechs.I'm pretty sure most of the 'Mechs in these units that have advanced tech got them from new factory's, not C*.

You are incorrect.  Every Light and/or Medium advanced-tech 'mech in those units came from Comstar.  The only Heavy advanced-tech 'mech available is the DRG-5N on a roll of 11 (the most common advanced-tech Heavy 'Mech is the CHP-1N with a 1/4 chance).  It is only the Assaults that have the majority coming from Combine factories.

jasonf

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #35 on: 12 April 2021, 08:54:53 »
what’s 2100 mechs between friends?

100 Blackjacks?  (see what I did there...  8) )


FWIW, my math/sources are consistent with what others have here:
DCMS has 66 regular regiments in 3025 in House Kurita SB (67 if you retcon the Otomo)
DCMS has 84 regular regiments in Historical: 3039

I'd say the least plausible ramp-up is the addition of the 2 Genyosha and 6 Ryuken regiments by 3028 (which would require about 300 Mechs/year ignoring any other losses/attrition, like the Galtor campaign), which brings the DCMS to 75 regiments going into the 4SW, but the question is 3039.

Yes, the DCMS loses lots of full regiments, but the other Houses also have decent losses they need to recover from in 3030-39 across their Mech regiments that weren't destroyed, so anything that's implausible for DCMS recovery is likely also implausible for other Houses as well.
The bigger hit to recover from would be the new FRR units/Ronin Wars, but maybe we can just assume that Comstar Mechs offset that.

That would mean that they'd need a net increase of about 100/'Mechs a year over attrition/4SW losses to get to 84 regiments by 3039. A heavy lift, but not too crazy, especially when you consider that they added Norse BM works in the 4SW and relocated their FRR production by 3035.



Natasha Kerensky

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #36 on: 12 April 2021, 10:07:06 »
IO is NOT a canon source in this matter, the numbers provided should be used as a guide and nothing more

You cited IO, not me:

The 66 number is Xtol's, which roughly matches IO's number of 68, so it can be assumed to be accurate.

I’m just telling you that you got the wrong number from that source.

Quote
C* didn't provide that many 'Mechs, like 1 or 2.

ComStar gave Teddy the Blankenburg Technologies facility on Soul.  We know from the Crockett/Katana fluff that facility contained “numerous, stripped-down” Crocketts, not 1 or 2.

In addition to ComStar Crocketts, we also know that the Combine fielded ComStar Sentinels, Crabs, and Kintaros.  (There may be others I missed.)  That’s at least four different mech models, not 1 or 2.

Quote
True, but for the 13 regiments on the border when the war began after they would have been hit again after they'd retreated before they had a chance or regroup or resupply, unless they retreated out of the theater of war.

If we want to know, we have to go through the 4SW Atlases regiment by regiment.  You know what they say about assumptions.
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SteelRaven

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #37 on: 12 April 2021, 10:18:14 »
You know, this rapid arms build up actual explains why do many of the DCMS mech upgrades are sometimes erratic like the lack of DHS. It could honestly be the case that the Combined couldn't produce enough DHS to keep up with it's mech production so the decided to double down on stockpiling Standard HS for easier logistics across the board.
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Fat Guy

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #38 on: 14 April 2021, 14:23:53 »
It could honestly be the case that the Combined couldn't produce enough DHS to keep up with it's mech production so the decided to double down on stockpiling Standard HS for easier logistics across the board.

Or the fact they wasted the ones they did have on the Quickdraw and Shilone.   ::)
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Wendelsnatch

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #39 on: 15 April 2021, 10:49:06 »
Another possible option is the rapid build up used soldiers and Mechs already present in the Combine.  The state could have federalize large numbers of independent militia mech forces.  You pull a half dozen mechs from every combine planet and you have better than a dozen regiments right there.


MarauderD

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #40 on: 15 April 2021, 10:56:04 »
I know the thread is about the how of the DCMS getting up to nearly 100 regiments:  production, treaties with ComStar, etc.

As a BattleTech fan, I always accepted the why reasoning:  getting rolled by the FedCom is boring, and would end the reason for BattleTech in the first place!
« Last Edit: 15 April 2021, 11:03:50 by MarauderD »

mvp7

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #41 on: 15 April 2021, 16:52:22 »
There are some real world examples of military forces or large industrial nations being raised at incredibly speed. Eastern Front during WW2 saw both Germany and USSR ramping up their military productions and recruiting. Soviets did that (with some lend lease help) even after having to effectively relocate their industry during 1941. German military production kept growing until 1944 despite material shortages and (surprisingly ineffective) bombing of their industry.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Front_(World_War_II)#Industrial_output
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_production_during_World_War_II

Even if you take into consideration the peculiar inability of Inner Sphere powers to maintain (not to mention ramp up) their industry during the succession wars period, it still doesn't seem that crazy for a faction with hundreds of planets and hundreds of billions of citizens to double the size of their military in a decade of relative peace if they do that in the spirit of national recovery and rearmament (look at Nazi Germany between 1933 and 1939 for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany). When there is will, militaries can be completely rebuilt or overhauled in few years, or they can fall in days. Even at large scale the balance of power can shift drastically in surprisingly short periods of time. Few dozen mech regiments in 9 years doesn't really even make me raise an eyebrow (unlike the centuries of inability to get some new industry and R&D set up...)
« Last Edit: 15 April 2021, 17:06:31 by mvp7 »

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #42 on: 16 April 2021, 11:53:28 »
Your table shows 11 house units stricken from records over this time period, but we know that 16 more where destroyed or render combat ineffective due to fighting the Dragoons:
At Misery: Ryuken-ni, Ryuken-san, Ryuken-go, Ryuken-yon, Eighth Sword of Light, Seventeenth Galedon Regulars, and Twenty-First Galedon Regulars;
At Harrow's Sun, 8th Galedon Regulars;
At Wapakoneta, 3rd Proserpina Hussars, and 20th Galedon Regulars;
At Glenmora, 5th Galedon Regulars, and 16th Galedon Regulars;
And at Crossing, 5th Galedon Regulars, 8th Galedon Regulars, 12th Galedon Regulars, and 16th Galedon Regulars.
Point of order.
That is 12 Regiments.
You listed 4 of them twice.
They were not combat ineffective, they were damaged, and then repaired to some extent, and then the survivors all came together again at Crossing.

Quote
And during the Ronin war these 14 regiment rebelled against the dragon: 1st Altenmarkt Militia, 5th Amphigean Light Assault Group, 2nd Night Stalkers: Johiro's Regiment, 1st Proserpina Hussars, 5th Rasalhague Regulars, 8th Rasalhague Regulars, 9th Rasalhague Regulars, 13th Rasalhague Regulars, 17th Rasalhague Regulars, 20th Rasalhague Regulars, 22nd Rasalhague Regulars, 25th Rasalhague Regulars, 1st Sun Zhang Academy Cadre, and 12th Sun Zhang Academy Cadre, which makes things complicated because their already on your list, but in many cases this is probably the second time the unit was destroyed in a decade.IO is NOT a canon source in this matter, the numbers provided should be used as a guide and nothing moreC* didn't provide that many 'Mechs, like 1 or 2.True, but for the 13 regiments on the border when the war began after they would have been hit again after they'd retreated before they had a chance or regroup or resupply, unless they retreated out of the theater of war.You probably still have better information then just the original Housebooks but, which as far as I know is all the rest of us have to go on. (probably a sign that the era does need some attention)
Off the top of my head some of those came back to the DCMS,  Johiro's Regiment I believe was one for sure.

Quote
It's not a question of man power, it's a question of actual 'Mechs.I'm pretty sure most of the 'Mechs in these units that have advanced tech got them from new factory's, not C*.
Mechs are 300 years old, they get damaged, they get "mission destroyed" and then they get repaired.
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Marveryn

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #43 on: 17 April 2021, 19:05:36 »
Let's check actual unit lists here:

3025
Altenmarkt Militia:     1
Amphigean LAG:       3
An Ting Legion:         3
Arkab Legion:            3
Benjamin Regulars:    7
Dieron Regulars:       11
Galedon Regulars:      8
Legion of Vega:          3
Night Stalkers:           2
Proserpina Hussars:    3
Pesht Regulars:          6
Rasalhague Regulars:  8
Sun Zhang Cadre:       4
Sword of Light:           5
Mercenaries:              13
Total:                        80

3039
Alshain Regulars        11
Benjamin Regulars       7
Dieron Regulars         13
Galedon Regulars       10
Pesht Regulars             7
Genyosha                    2
Sword of Light             5
Sun Zhang Cadre         4
Otomo                        1
Amphigean LAG           3
An Ting Legion             2
Arkab Legion               3
Night Stalkers              1
Proserpina Hussars       3
Shin Legions                2
Ghost Regiments         12
Legions of Vega            3
Ryuken                        5
Mercenaries                 0
Total                          94

So in total, the DCMS only gained 14 regiments.  However, they did this while losing 23 regiments from the 3025 roster for a grand total of adding 37 regiments in 14 years.
The Otomo may have simply been "unlisted" in 3025, and some of the Alshain Regulars may (probably were) formed from loyal elements of the Rasalhague Regulars.  The Shin Legions are formed of Capellan expatriates.
  Alshain may also had some help from Duke Ricol who may had use any means to build there ranks.  Some who may not be approve.  He was personally building a small army. 

Col Toda

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #44 on: 19 April 2021, 18:28:59 »
Getting people and gear in extreme situations does happen .  Most of the previous generation of mech warriors went to the militia units on the planet they took their demobbilization benifits . The In for life trait means subject to recall. Corporate security gets nationalized.  Solaris VII Stables get shuttered . Nobel private retainers along with the nobel start to work in rear areas at the Various Warlord staging areas and supply depots . The 5th Ghost ? made up of female warriors that got their careers held back because of their gender are transferred to fill out the ranks to questionably loyal units with every incentive to report disloyalty and get the brevit promotion during the emergency.  Contingencies are Made by every faction in case of fill in the blank situation.  Making plans for every eventuality that is likely to come up is done by everyone. 

guardiandashi

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #45 on: 19 April 2021, 18:38:54 »
I forget the exact numbers, but I want to say the GDL pulled ~1 regiment (3 battalions) of effectively new mechs out of the helm Cache, but Duke Ricol got around 3x that if I remember right. he also got a copy of the helm library core which went a long way towards helping house Kurita repair and upgrade, and also return to service some of the factories.

remember in ~3025 the vast majority of Kurita's production was light, medium and low end heavies (Dragons) sure they made some assault mechs, but not a lot and most of them kinda sucked
after the helm core allowed them to get their act back together production wise, they started producing a lot more heavy and assault mechs in larger quantities

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #46 on: 19 April 2021, 18:59:48 »
remember in ~3025 the vast majority of Kurita's production was light, medium and low end heavies (Dragons)

The vast majority of everyone's production at that point was light and mediums, with few assaults, except maybe Steiner. Although I am pretty sure FM:DC and the original Kurita sourcebook say the DCMS doesn't like medium 'mechs, despite there being several notable Kurita-specific medium variants.

phoenixalpha

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #47 on: 20 April 2021, 02:52:50 »
In 39 - the DCMS was already making advanced tech for it's mechs. Ardan Sortek faced off against upgraded Chargers so I imagine a lot of the stuff that the DCMS had hidden or stockpiled was pulled out and pushed back into service. So your "Charger" which was sitting in a 3rd rate backwater militia warehouse because no one with any honour would pilot an 80 ton mech which could be beaten every time by a lowly Locust, gets pulled out of the warehouse and upgraded and shoved back into front line service. With the DCMS I imagine there are several categories of mechs that would not only be looked down on by a front line unit, but the subsequent shame of being assigned one would mean that very few people would want to pilot them. Therefor they languish in a warehouse somewhere in the hinterlands until Teddy K comes along and as Kanrei scoops everything up that can possibly fight and hands it to people who want to fight.

A "alternative real world" analogy would be if the US was in a war with a matched enemy (I know... isnt gonna happen) - and needed every aircraft and tank necessary to fight off its opponent. I'm sure there would be a whole rapid expansion of older equipment and older pilots and crews just pulled from the boneyards that the US have and it being thrown into the front line - no matter how poor the quality. An F22 might be worth 5x opponents but when you are facing off against 10x your number - you just dont have the numbers - so you'll thrown older equipment back in the mix to even the numbers game. So you're F-4/14/15/16s that are collecting dust or in some national guard units are hastily brought back up to fighting spec and pushed out as "front line units".  So whilst the US may have X thousand aircraft in front line service, given a year and some moral flexibility - I'm sure that number could double very quickly with older kit.

guardiandashi

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #48 on: 20 April 2021, 18:08:15 »
The vast majority of everyone's production at that point was light and mediums, with few assaults, except maybe Steiner. Although I am pretty sure FM:DC and the original Kurita sourcebook say the DCMS doesn't like medium 'mechs, despite there being several notable Kurita-specific medium variants.
I would have to look to verify, but as I remember it:
Kurita built a lot of panthers and was the sole source for Jenners
they also had some whitworths? phoenix hawks, and another medium mech, but no real production of the majority of the 50-55 ton mediums
they were the sole source of dragons, they made some Warhammers, and had some marauders, they had a moderate supply of chargers, and some spin off designs, like the Hamato variant that were thugs on a modified charger chassis (although I think those actually came out between 39 and 50.  I want to say they did not have a lot of other assault mechs other than the Atlas variant they made.

Steiner had a lot of medium, heavy and assault mechs.  there is a reason people joke about Steiner Commandos being battle armor

davion also had a more balanced range... except for a huge number of Valkyries because that 1 factory put out over 100 mechs per year

DOC_Agren

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #49 on: 20 April 2021, 18:40:56 »
The vast majority of everyone's production at that point was light and mediums, with few assaults, except maybe Steiner. Although I am pretty sure FM:DC and the original Kurita sourcebook say the DCMS doesn't like medium 'mechs, despite there being several notable Kurita-specific medium variants.
And you forgot we in House Steiner show you BA first  The Commando 
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Elmoth

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #50 on: 21 April 2021, 00:18:58 »
25 tonner is a little big for battle armor

guardiandashi

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #51 on: 21 April 2021, 00:25:40 »
25 tonner is a little big for battle armor
not for steiner.
remember they are the ones that have the recon lance of zeus, awesome, banshee, and atlas

Elmoth

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #52 on: 21 April 2021, 03:09:26 »
Yeah. It is the lance where the Banshee turns around and says "hurry up people! you are slowing me down!"

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #53 on: 21 April 2021, 03:33:16 »
Just in case it might complicate everybody's calculations, I feel compelled to point out that the Combine originally formed nine ryuken regiments, not the six frequently mentioned, with four of them being destroyed in the initial confrontation with the Dragoons, before the battle of misery.

So it's not like it's the first time the Combine's pulled huge numbers of troops out of the usual place...

Good news is the lab boys say the symptoms of asbestos poisoning show an immediate latency of 44.6 years. So if you're thirty or over you're laughing. Worst case scenario you miss out on a few rounds of canasta, plus you've forwarded the cause of science by three centuries. I punch those numbers into my calculator, it makes a happy face.

(indirect accessory to the) Slayer of Monitors!

Greywind

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #54 on: 21 April 2021, 06:46:22 »
A lot of Theodore's War of 3039 with Hanse was a lot of smoke and mirrors.

DOC_Agren

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Re: How Did The DCMS Number almost 100 Regiments by 3039?
« Reply #55 on: 23 April 2021, 14:01:48 »
25 tonner is a little big for battle armor
Hey it was early suit, and well you know House Steiner that we like thing BIG
"For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast, And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill, And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"