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Author Topic: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?  (Read 3912 times)

SteelRaven

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #30 on: 23 January 2021, 22:12:20 »
Considering how casually it was mentioned it would be a good time to take out Luthien just prior to aiding their former foes, got the impression a Command Circuit may have already been planned in case the 4th SW kicked off. My best guess is civilian jumpships that where being used for free trade between FedCom and DC had their pre-planned routes, including estimated charge time, monitored heavily by FedCom intelligence. 
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Charistoph

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #31 on: 23 January 2021, 22:23:01 »
Either that or Davion had a Command Circuit set up within Draconis territory through uninhabited systems.  That should give the Draconis military some nice ideas and nightmares.

The use of uninhabited systems was mentioned, I believe.  There is actually a lot of empty space with stars few go to in every transit area.

Convincing merchants to wait at what is basically a dead star for a command circuit is a hard task, though.
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SCC

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #32 on: 23 January 2021, 22:38:51 »
Given that recent books have massively upped the number of JS, I'm guessing that the command circuit is something close to correct, likely what happened is that the Dragoons and Hounds commandeered JS along their path to make the time they did, by sticking to well-traveled systems they have good odds of there being a JS that would be leaving within hours of their arrival, and well their well armed mercs, most JS commanders probably aren't going to argue with them.

Charistoph

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #33 on: 23 January 2021, 22:44:34 »
Given that recent books have massively upped the number of JS, I'm guessing that the command circuit is something close to correct, likely what happened is that the Dragoons and Hounds commandeered JS along their path to make the time they did, by sticking to well-traveled systems they have good odds of there being a JS that would be leaving within hours of their arrival, and well their well armed mercs, most JS commanders probably aren't going to argue with them.

Quite likely except not even ComStar knew they were coming.  Two of the biggest Combine-hating Merc units moving in mass commandeering every JumpShip in range (and there would have to be several) to move to Luthien would hit their ears at least, and even it would have been hard for Combine's ISF not to notice either so that it is a surprise when they arrive in the dead middle of the Combine.
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Dave Talley

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #34 on: 23 January 2021, 23:02:24 »
Well comstar has the single largest jumpship fleet around
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bobthecoward

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #35 on: 23 January 2021, 23:15:23 »
Given that recent books have massively upped the number of JS, I'm guessing that the command circuit is something close to correct, likely what happened is that the Dragoons and Hounds commandeered JS along their path to make the time they did, by sticking to well-traveled systems they have good odds of there being a JS that would be leaving within hours of their arrival, and well their well armed mercs, most JS commanders probably aren't going to argue with them.

What is the number of jumpships?

ravensword

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #36 on: 23 January 2021, 23:36:59 »
What is the number of jumpships?

Last number I remember seeing/hearing about was on the order of 10k.

truetanker

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #37 on: 24 January 2021, 00:43:41 »
The Mercs probably paid extortionist prices on purpose to out right commandeer said jumpers, up to possible buying them from their respective captains and paying the fines to the parent company later for doing so.

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Xan

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #38 on: 24 January 2021, 00:56:59 »
In Sword and Dagger, four Fedsun Mechwarriors managed to highjack a series of drop ships to make a impromptu command circuit, to save Hanse (with the help of Hanse's No limit credit card to pay them off on the way).  It was said that had never been done before, but nothing said it hasn't happened since.  So its not out of the question, or completely precedent setting, that a bunch of armed mercenaries could commander jump ships along the way.

The Dragoon's may have still been on outreach, but I would be surprised if the Kell Hounds were still on Arc Royal, they may have been closer to the front.  I think one of Hanse's first orders when he figured out just what he was dealing with was activating his elite units and moving them towards the Clan Front.  I think I remember him ordering the light horse up from FedSun space to Lyran space, so it would be logical the Kell Hounds were out on the front lines as well.

OR it sets up an awesome big robot fight so the rule of cool prevails.
« Last Edit: 24 January 2021, 01:07:41 by Xan »

Frabby

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #39 on: 24 January 2021, 01:55:12 »
If ComStar is playing ball and not delaying your messages, you can reasonably expect to set up a command circuit within two weeks, at least in the inner Inner Sphere area we're talking about.
Within FedCom borders it was likely already in place (seems good military practice and the Clan invasion had been going for over a year). One jump into Combine space, Hanse would have to rely on local commercial shipping - ComStar and ComStar-sponsored merchants most likely. But it's absolutely within the realm of possibility.

Also, for a short command circuit trip and if you're not expecting a hot landing you can cram all of Wolf's Dragoons into a Mammoth or two and borrow military DropShips from Kurita as needed on Luthien. We're probably not talking a big JumpShip fleet here after all.
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SCC

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #40 on: 24 January 2021, 03:35:13 »
What is the number of jumpships?
Last number I remember seeing/hearing about was on the order of 10k.
Try twice that as the minimum for 3025, and 3 times it for 3050, and those are MINIMUMS. If Tikionov does need to import all it's food (like I've seen mentioned a time or two), that's 5 MILLION TONS of food it needs to import DAILY, over 800 Mules would be required.

glitterboy2098

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #41 on: 24 January 2021, 03:48:50 »
i've generally assumed they were using LFB equipped jumpships so they could cross two systems at a time, and were doing a lot of "just barely not insane" hot-charging through uninhabited systems.

and that the whole deployment doubled as an unspoken statement that had the clans not been a threat, the Fedsuns could have had the capability to strike deep inside the combine anytime they wanted without the combine seeing it coming.

command circuits aren't really a possibility here given that this is nominally hostile space (whole the clans had their attentions, and Theodore and Hanse made it clear during the Outreach conference that they would not be starting a new war while the bigger threat is present.. both sides were still technically in a state of hostilities. which means that you'd be sending those jumpships into harms way trying to set up a circuit.
plus, given the time it takes to move ships around, you'd need way more than the one month they had. plus you have to figure that any ships the fedsuns had were largely already being used to evac units from the clan front or conduct the minimum required trade to keep the economy afloat.

nor could they be using Combine recharge stations or arranging combine jumpships to move them, because their arrival at Luthien was a complete suprise to Theodore, and if they had been using a web of contacts in the combine, the ISF would have found out something was up.
« Last Edit: 24 January 2021, 05:19:40 by glitterboy2098 »

Colt Ward

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #42 on: 24 January 2021, 04:12:44 »
Try twice that as the minimum for 3025, and 3 times it for 3050, and those are MINIMUMS. If Tikionov does need to import all it's food (like I've seen mentioned a time or two), that's 5 MILLION TONS of food it needs to import DAILY, over 800 Mules would be required.

And we should have a number of cargo DS between Mamule/Jumbo and Behemoth besides the Mammoth, but they are left out of TROs b/c they are not militarily significant for most military campaigns (headcanon).  We should have de-mil'd versions of the Lee (17kt), Colossus (20kt), and Excalibur (16kt), all of which are slightly larger than the Jumbo (14.8kt) and (Mule 11.2 kt)  Heck, the Aquaduct should have a variant (Astra Via?) to move bulk goods too- sure they produced the Mammoth around the same time but they would have a wider market for just a hauler and be able to sell more parts.

De-mil'd would be thinner armor, less weapons and just cargo bays on the decks rather than the mech or vehicle cradles.  Troop transport DS were de-mil'd during the Stone Age- designated CCs (Civilian Conversion) where we got at least Okinawas and Overlords gutted in such a manner.

And the crew costs for a Jumbo vs Aquaduct, hauling over 3x the Jumbo, are about the same.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #43 on: 24 January 2021, 05:57:04 »
but it is mostly DC space. Why would the FC jumpships necessarily be around there to move seven regiments?

They were the cavalry for DC, that is requested by DC, to bolster the defense of their capital, and are not the belongings of FC(that's why they are picked for the cavalry sent by Hanse, not AFFC force). Then why local DC transport divisions and civilian jumpships are not cooperate with them?

Although they are hired by their (once were)sworn enemy, but they are not the sworn enemy itself, and they are come for help requrested by their secretary of defense and heir of the coordinator himself. I think that Theodore will do anything to bring them in time, consider his desperate request for help.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #44 on: 24 January 2021, 06:37:33 »
They were the cavalry for DC, that is requested by DC, to bolster the defense of their capital, and are not the belongings of FC(that's why they are picked for the cavalry sent by Hanse, not AFFC force). Then why local DC transport divisions and civilian jumpships are not cooperate with them?

Although they are hired by their (once were)sworn enemy, but they are not the sworn enemy itself, and they are come for help requrested by their secretary of defense and heir of the coordinator himself. I think that Theodore will do anything to bring them in time, consider his desperate request for help.

They weren’t requested. That’s why everyone freaked out when they said oh crap all the mercs are here.

They were sent without warning to help

Frabby

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #45 on: 24 January 2021, 08:46:50 »
"ComStar, at your service. How may we be of assistance?"

"Uh, hi. I'm totally not Quintus Allard, and I'd like to send a message to, err, all my friends and family serving on all those FedCom JumpShips on all those jump points between here and Luthien. You've got a premade list filed."

"Indeed, Mr. not-Allard. What message body would you like to send?"

"Oh, dunno. 'You're all invited for St. Michael celebrations in fourteen days' perhaps?"

"Very well, Mr. not-Allard. Shall we route all replies to your New Avalon adress as usual?"

"Yes please. Oh, and would you kindly let them know that we'll be playing a game of 'Phantom WolfHounds meet the friendly dragon and play whack-a-cat'."

"Of course, Mr. not-Allard..."
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Charistoph

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #46 on: 24 January 2021, 14:14:14 »
i've generally assumed they were using LFB equipped jumpships so they could cross two systems at a time, and were doing a lot of "just barely not insane" hot-charging through uninhabited systems.

This is a reasonable assumption.  They may have also jumped in a little close to the star to improve their hot-charging via sails.

and that the whole deployment doubled as an unspoken statement that had the clans not been a threat, the Fedsuns could have had the capability to strike deep inside the combine anytime they wanted without the combine seeing it coming.

Well, this capacity has always been in place because space is big; really big; vastly, hugely, mindbogglingly big.  For every star that a Jumpship would normally go to in it's journeys, there are anywhere from 30-50 around that no Jumphip has seen in centuries.

The reason it isn't used is the same reason that we didn't drop the 10st airborne in to Berlin on D-Day: Having support when surrounded is important.  Which leads to borders being used to provide said support.  This becomes less a concern when you're not there to attack the owners, but to defend them.

command circuits aren't really a possibility here given that this is nominally hostile space (whole the clans had their attentions, and Theodore and Hanse made it clear during the Outreach conference that they would not be starting a new war while the bigger threat is present.. both sides were still technically in a state of hostilities. which means that you'd be sending those jumpships into harms way trying to set up a circuit.
plus, given the time it takes to move ships around, you'd need way more than the one month they had. plus you have to figure that any ships the fedsuns had were largely already being used to evac units from the clan front or conduct the minimum required trade to keep the economy afloat.

Getting the circuit in to the place is the hardest part for the whole thing.  Arranging one to get one jump past the border isn't hard, it's the rest of the way.

Unless, as someone else has mentioned, there are some clandestine merchant marines who were just waiting for such an event to happen.  Risky, though, as the ISF is always on the look out for such trouble-makers.  But I doubt they'd be looking for the "Oh we're a secret command circuit from the Draconis March to Luthien who are set to move to uninhabited star systems all of a sudden to provide a sword path to the heart of the Dragon."

nor could they be using Combine recharge stations or arranging combine jumpships to move them, because their arrival at Luthien was a complete suprise to Theodore, and if they had been using a web of contacts in the combine, the ISF would have found out something was up.

Oh, that part isn't as hard as you think when the average dropship outguns the average jumpship, and then there are the marines they bring along to make sure they go to the right place.  The hard part is using all those assets without anyone else finding out about it.

Of course, they could have had contacts in the underground forces to do just that.  It wouldn't be the first time that the mafia had done something like this, especially if they also knew about the cats heading towards Luthien.
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Guardian11

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #47 on: 24 January 2021, 15:49:12 »
Considering Takashi Kurita and his hardliners would have freaked out if they knew the Dragoons and Kell Hounds were coming in advance, that I don't think Hanse would have sent them to Luthien without giving Theodore a heads-up to keep them from being shot as soon as they show up, and that Theodore didn't seem particularly surprised by them showing up. I wonder if Hanse sent a fax to Theodore informing him of the mercs coming and requesting a command circuit be set up to get them to Luthien in time. And Theodore knowing the reaction of his father and the hardliners set up a command circuit without letting them know, and then acted surprised and played dumb about how the mercs got to Luthien. Maybe Hanse said he was sending some reinforcements but didn't specify that they were the Kell Hounds and Wolf's Dragoons.

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #48 on: 24 January 2021, 16:33:03 »
Considering Takashi Kurita and his hardliners would have freaked out if they knew the Dragoons and Kell Hounds were coming in advance, that I don't think Hanse would have sent them to Luthien without giving Theodore a heads-up to keep them from being shot as soon as they show up, and that Theodore didn't seem particularly surprised by them showing up. I wonder if Hanse sent a fax to Theodore informing him of the mercs coming and requesting a command circuit be set up to get them to Luthien in time. And Theodore knowing the reaction of his father and the hardliners set up a command circuit without letting them know, and then acted surprised and played dumb about how the mercs got to Luthien. Maybe Hanse said he was sending some reinforcements but didn't specify that they were the Kell Hounds and Wolf's Dragoons.

Discounting hot-charging the KF Drives and recharge stations, merchant command circuits and this explanation make the most sense to me.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #49 on: 24 January 2021, 18:07:59 »
At first, how they can get to there without any approval of Theodore? And he has the power to allow it, as well as do everything to bring them to Luthien in time.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #50 on: 24 January 2021, 18:26:29 »
At first, how they can get to there without any approval of Theodore? And he has the power to allow it, as well as do everything to bring them to Luthien in time.

Comstar has one foot in either grave. If Hanse sent Teddy a HPG-gram saying I have an extra 7 regiments for you comstar would know, ulric would know, and he might tell the smoke jags.

Also teddy was too proud to accept help, mercenary help, mercenary’s that utterly embarrassed himself help, help sent by his official mortal enemy.

PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #51 on: 24 January 2021, 18:38:32 »
Perhaps his father will, but the son is a man with honor and reason, not only the pride.

Kerfuffin(925)

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #52 on: 24 January 2021, 19:05:21 »
Perhaps his father will, but the son is a man with honor and reason, not only the pride.

Hanse doesnt have a relationship with Hohiro, hes esentially a nobody with a royal name at this point.

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #53 on: 24 January 2021, 19:35:37 »
Comstar has one foot in either grave. If Hanse sent Teddy a HPG-gram saying I have an extra 7 regiments for you comstar would know, ulric would know, and he might tell the smoke jags.

Also teddy was too proud to accept help, mercenary help, mercenary’s that utterly embarrassed himself help, help sent by his official mortal enemy.

You seem to have Theodore Kurita confuse with his father, Takashi.  Yes, Takashi was a stubborn old man who would have rather let the entire Combine burn than admit that he was wrong.  Theodore, on the other hand, was smart and pragmatic enough that he'd managed to successfully use Hanse Davion's own tactics against him in the War of 39.  He'd been the one trying to browbeat the Combine military into using actual military tactics instead of just relying on banzai charges for everything.  He made deals with the Yakuza to form new military units that didn't have their heads up their butts when it came to samurai honor.  He absolutely would have been on board with bringing in mercenaries to save Luthien.
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PuppyLikesLaserPointers

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #54 on: 24 January 2021, 19:43:21 »
Hanse doesnt have a relationship with Hohiro, hes esentially a nobody with a royal name at this point.

I mean Theodore, the son and heir of Takashi and the head of DC military arms at the time.

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #55 on: 24 January 2021, 19:56:43 »
at Outreach Davion had promised he would not invade the Combine,
saying he would send no house troops, which is why as the ships jumped in, Takashi was freaking out that Davion was sending mercs to destroy them
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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #56 on: 24 January 2021, 21:03:58 »
Well if we put aside the bickering about how it was accomplish and started looking for answers in between the lines.

I think we can find the answer we're looking for.

I can see buying / renting independently owned Merchant and Invader ships more than just outright stealing them.

And that isn't too hard to offer an idea, as the Federated Suns probably had Q-Ships in the area via MIIO and DMI insurgents sneaking in and out over the years, masquerading as merchants and such.

Also, there could have been compromised and " turned " Kurita sympathizers as well to help out in transportation. " False " records / orders , that could have been pulled, like ' Go here and pick up said Dropships and jump to these coordinates by X time, fastest route. Priority One Alert. '.

And then we have the Trojan-class dropper, which looks like a Union, only smaller, built from militarized Danais-class droppers. GDL Phobos is one such craft.

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Charistoph

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #57 on: 24 January 2021, 21:42:58 »
Hanse doesnt have a relationship with Hohiro, hes esentially a nobody with a royal name at this point.

Umm, Hanse's son and Hohiro's sister were on good terms at Outreach, and even Victor and Hohiro gained some respect for each other (not enough to continue the good terms with his sister, though).

It wouldn't have been much of a relationship, but it was far closer than was possible before the Clans began their invasion.
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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #58 on: 24 January 2021, 23:08:30 »
I was looking at total chaos recently and that had some questionable timing. I might just be underestimating how frequent jumpship switching is when any ship will do.

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Re: How did wolf dragoons get to Luthien?
« Reply #59 on: 24 January 2021, 23:23:22 »
I was looking at total chaos recently and that had some questionable timing. I might just be underestimating how frequent jumpship switching is when any ship will do.

That's one of my theories on the undocumented BT universe - shipping isn't all one JumpShip taking its DropShips all the way from point A to B and back again.  At some points they may have otherwise open collars due to ships running late, or just have some unassigned to pick up whoever pays the most at busy ports.  ComStar keeps records of shipping routes and usually available collars, and for a nominal fee allows calculation of optimal routing for longer trips and reserves JumpShip collars if possible.
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